Talk:Fight Club

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	To-do list for Fight Club:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
To-do list Improve and expand Motifs, Subtext, and Criticism sections Recurring problems The article must focus on the book, not the film. Ignorantly made edits made by people who did not read the book (i.e. Jack instead of Joe) need to be corrected. The two rules lists must stay as they were quoted from the book (again, look out for people adding the film's version).

Archives
30 October 2005

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Contents 1 Editing 2 more personalities? 3 Tony Hawk Underground 4 K1 Fight Club Eurosport 5 All singing all dancing. 6 Futurama 7 Tyler's nights jobs 8 2nd criticism paragraph 9 Moravagine [Blaise Cendrars] rip off? 10 Palahniuk's homosexuality 11 Masculinity? 12 Rules section 13 I'm new at this 14 Stop changing the rules 15 Freightliner 16 Opening paragraph 17 Film Reference 18 Fight Club in pop culture 19 Error in last two paragraphs of plot summary: 20 Real-life Bob 21 the rules of fight club / the rules of project mayhem (to edit or not to edit) 22 "real" Fight Clubs? 23 Wikiproject Mayhem 24 Critics changing views? 25 Speculation 26 Major Themes? 27 Stirrings Still as a source 28 Stirrings Still as a source

[edit] Editing

I've noticed most of the character explanations are how they are seen in the movie, not the book, can we remove the movie parts considering this is the novel's page and not the movie's? As a side note, I added the novel's explanation of Robert "Big Bob" Paulson's death.

[edit] more personalities?

It's been a while since I read the novel, but I remember a scene involving Tyler, the narrator, and a car driver. The three of them are arguing or fighting or something, and I remember thinking that they car driver was also a dissociative identity created by the narrator. Does anyone else (a) remember this, (b) agree with me and (c) consider this as worthy of inclusion? -- 167.206.156.241

Tyler was not in that scene. The narrator was just riding in a car driven by a mechanic. And they were not arguing; the mechanic was simply giving the speech that Tyler gives in the movie (men raised on TV thinking they'll be rock stars, etc). The mechanic was not an identity of the narrator (at least not from a literal standpoint), but simply one of the space monkeys who had gained this knowledge from being around Tyler. As for including it, I think it would work best to talk about it in the subtext section, as its most significant contribution to the novel is thematic. -- LGagnon 18:12, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tony Hawk Underground

I reverted the edit about this game because it was too poorly written to keep in the article. There was no clear connection made between the game and FC (the writing made it look like a coincidence to me), and unless someone can rewrite it in a way that makes sense, it should stay out of the article. -- LGagnon 00:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] K1 Fight Club Eurosport

Fight club is also a name of a K1 fighting program that shows on Eurosport. This is not mentioned here. It should be mentioned on the chapter Fight Club in pop culture.

Was it named after the novel and/or film? If not, it should be mentioned on the disambiguation page, not in this article. -- LGagnon 00:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All singing all dancing.

Does the Simpsons episode directly reference Fight Club? The term "All singing all dancing" predates the book, see the 1930s cartoons [1], 1971 documentary [2], and a 1983 Usenet message [3]. -- Jeandré, 2006-01-09t20:49z

I'm going to remove it. Unless someone can prove it has to do with FC, it shouldn't be here. -- LGagnon 21:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Futurama

Wasn't Farnsworth leaving a party at some other building? -- LGagnon 13:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a reference to fight club in an episode of Family Guy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.188.62.227 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Tyler's nights jobs

"Tyler works night jobs just to cause problems for the companies" This isn't true, it says in the novel that: "Because of his nature. Tyler could only work night jobs." (chapter 3).

Not to make mischief, that he has other motivations for; "You're a projectionist and you're tired and angry, but mostly you're bored so you start by taking a single frame of pornography collected by some other projectionist that you find stashed away in the booth, and you splice this frame of lunging red penis or a yawning wet vagina closeup into another feature movie." (chapter 3) Masken 19:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd criticism paragraph

I'm deleting this paragraph. It's confusing (his thoughts are not his opinions?), poorly worded, and it doesn't really express anything useful. Reword it into something usable if you want (and please explain it here first so we know if it even is useful), but as it is it doesn't belong. -- LGagnon 05:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

agreed. Also, it's a bit close to original research. -- Jon Dowland 11:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moravagine [Blaise Cendrars] rip off?

The main plotline in the Figth Club and the twist at the end is pretty much the same as it is in the novel "Moravagine" (1926) by the Swiss novelist and poet Blaise Cendrars. It is a short novel but much more surreal, perverse and violent. The story is set in and around Europe at beginning of the 20th century. Instead of the Figth Club, the alter-ego Moravagine is forming a communist party. I was wondering if Chuck Palahniuk has ever gave a credit to Cendrars. DS

I've never heard this. You'll have to find a source that mentions this or it won't be usable for the article. -- LGagnon 02:10, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Palahniuk's homosexuality

I felt like the fact that Palahniuk is gay was hidden in the end of the article and awkwardly introduced. It may not be relevant to the rest of the article, but saying:

"It is worth noting that all these claims were made before Palahniuk publically announced that he is a homosexual."

sounds like it is assumming that the reader of the article already knew he was gay. 70.93.249.46

This is already mentioned in his article. Also, there is no place earlier in the article where it is relevant to mention this (that is, his sexuality has nothing to do with anything about Fight Club other than the accusations of homoeroticism). Thus, it is perfectly fine to mention it that late into the article. -- LGagnon 15:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this whole section is a bit odd. It says that Fight Club was "accused" of being homoerotic. Can something be criticised this way? What's wrong with being homoerotic? I can only think that it's been described as homoerotic (which seems fair enough to me), and that this text should be moved elsewhere as it's not criticism then. Otherwise it sounds like the critics are just being homophobic (which they might be for all I know, but it seems unlikely). Does that make sense? Cheers, --Plumbago 16:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Is the novel being described as "homoerotic"? Some of the references suggest the film instead (and that'd be my view as well; the book doesn't seem homoerotic at all to me). In which case, remove this paragraph to the film's page? --Plumbago 16:34, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Call it homophobic of the critics if you want to, but technically it is a criticism. The claims were made by anti-Palahniuk critics, anyways. Also, don't be quick to remove it all unless you've checked to make sure it was not book critics; I know at least one of them was talking about the book. -- LGagnon 21:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I'll track down the sources, but it sounds like the homoerotic charge is made of the novel as well as the film. As for the critics being homophobic, sadly it sounds like that's exactly what they're being. More reason for me to scope them out. Cheers, --Plumbago 09:13, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Masculinity?

The plot is based around an unnamed protagonist who struggles with his growing discomfort with consumerism and changes in the state of masculinity in American culture.

A one line sililoquey in the bus scene is a really weak argument to add in the masculinity point. 211.30.80.121 11:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, this is not about the film. Second of all, there's plenty in the book about it. -- LGagnon 13:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rules section

Please stop making a section for the rules. This splits up the Plot section in an ackward way by detaching the lower half of it from the section. There is no actual need for such a section, so please do not make it again. -- LGagnon 01:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm new at this

I was reading Transmetropolitan the other night and noticed that in volume 7 page 85, there is some graffiti that says, "Tyler Durden lives". I don't know if this is worth mentioning or not, under "Fight Club in Pop Culture" or not.

I don't know Transmetropolitan, but does the reference make sense in a Fight Club context? I mean, similar themes, situations, etc.? If so, it sounds at least as worthy a reference as the others on the list. Anyway, care to expand? Cheers, --Plumbago 16:20, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

There's another reference to Fight Club in issue 42 of the same comic (42 is also in Volume 7, if you have the collection; the graffiti is in issue 40) ; this one's a little more obvious to people who've seen the movie. On page 16 of said issue, there's a whole block of high-rises being blown up in the distance, with a sign for a demolition company saying "Durden Demolitions: If it says Durden, it's going down." The comic is excellent, by the way, highly recommended.--216.68.209.189 00:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)dethtoll

Linking comic for context: Transmetropolitan. --208.41.98.142 17:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stop changing the rules

As a reminder to those who never bothered to read the book and are editing this article based on the film: The rules here are exact quotes from the book. It's not "do not" or the ridiculous "DO NOT", but "don't", and in both cases. Film fans can edit the film's article or at the very least do some research before editing this one. -- LGagnon 00:14, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I may have missed this in reading the fight club book article, but I was surprised to see there was no mention of Douglas Coupland's "Generation X: Tales for an Accelerated Culture." I believe that Palahniuk was influenced by this work. -- 144.223.2.98

Do you have a source? That would be needed to add such info. -- LGagnon 21:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freightliner

What did he do at Freightliner? --Gbleem 01:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe he once said that he fixed trucks. -- LGagnon 04:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening paragraph

I'm not sure that this sentence makes sense : "In its popularity, the novel has become a target of criticism, mainly for its explicit depictions of violence" (italics added). It immediately follows a sentence about the film and its popularity. Does this sentence supposed to mean something like ...

• "In the wake of the film's popularity ..."
• "In spite of its popularity, ..."

... or something similar? It doesn't make sense (to me) at the moment. Cheers, --Plumbago 12:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd go with the first choice. -- LGagnon 21:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Film Reference

Wumpscut — In the middle of the song "Christfuck", Brad Pitt's quote can be found; "As always. I'll carry you - kicking and screaming - and in the end you'll thank me."

Firstly I added the title of the song, I assume it was left out by accident but if it was intentionally excluded feel free to edit.

Also should Brad Pitt be changed to Tyler Durden? -- 203.23.219.158

This should be in the film's article, not the book's. I'm removing it, and you can add it over there. -- LGagnon 17:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fight Club in pop culture

I see no reason this section should stay in this article, given that every reference on the list is to the film, not the book. It should be moved to the film article. How difficult is it, people, to keep the two things straight? ---Charles 19:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Not every reference is about the film specifically. Many quotes/ideas appeared in the book first. You have no proof that they came from the film specifically, unless they did not appear in the book.

It's worth noting, though, that I've considered giving this section its own article, given that this article is getting a bit big and it would be easier to put references to both the book and film into one article to avoid redundancy in the film's article. -- LGagnon 23:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to get into a big argument with you on the point, but I think it is fair to say that the repeated references and allusions, in a number of different pop cultural forums, to "the rules of fight club," and the many variations of same, are, in fact, referring to the film and not the book. The film was, and is, a much larger cultural phenomenon than the book. That said, you are correct in arguing I "have no proof" for this assertion. We can agree, though, that people are having a hard time keeping the film and the book straight, and the pop culture section is getting out of hand. Something needs to be done to address this. I support your idea. ---Charles 02:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Error in last two paragraphs of plot summary:

In the article it says:

"There, the narrator is held captive at gunpoint by Tyler, forced to watch the destruction of Project Mayhem. Then, Marla comes to the roof with one of the support groups which the Narrator went to before fight club. This causes the hallucination of Tyler to stop, because “Tyler was [his] hallucination, not hers.” [17]

With Tyler gone, the narrator waits for the bomb to explode and kill him. However, the bomb turns out to be a dud due to the fact that Tyler used the paraffin recipe, which never worked for the narrator, and thus Tyler as well. Still alive and holding the gun that Tyler used to carry on him, the narrator decides to make the first decision that is truly his own: he puts the gun in his mouth and shoots himself."

Since when does Tyler "die" before the Narrator shoots himself?

This is wrong, someone should change it.

--Vashsunglasses 07:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Did you read the book? This article is about the book, not the film. It happens that way in the book. -- LGagnon 17:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've read the book multiple times and Tyler dies when the Narrator shoots himself. Tyler only "disappears" when Marla shows up in the same way he has always done so throughout the book. Vashsunglasses 05:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real-life Bob

In the DVD commentary for the film, Palahniuk says that he knew somebody named Bob who did steroids in the 80s who served as part of the basis for the character Bob. Coincidentally, the real-life Bob developed testicular cancer after the book was published. I feel that this needs to be mentioned (especially that there was a real-life basis for the Bob character), but I can't figure out in which section to place it. Perhaps there should be a new section that covers real-life inspirations for aspects of the novel (Palahniuk is famous for using urban legends and anecdotes from friends to craft his stories, and Fight Club is no exception). Jeff Silvers 01:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the rules of fight club / the rules of project mayhem (to edit or not to edit)

The Rules of Fight Club

   The first rule of fight club is you don’t talk about fight club.
   The second rule of fight club is you don’t talk about fight club. (Fight club exists only in the hours between when fight club starts and when fight club ends. You don’t talk about fight club because except for five hours from two until seven in the morning, fight club doesn’t exist.)
   The third rule of fight club is two men per fight.
   The fourth rule of fight club is one fight at a time.
   The fifth rule of fight club is no shoes, no shirts in the fight.
   The sixth rule of fight club is the fights go on as long as they have to.
   The seventh rule of fight club is if this is your first night at fight club, you have to fight.
   The eight rule of fight club is when someone says stop, or goes limp, even if he’s just faking it, the fight is over.
   The ninth rule of fight club is only fifty guys to a fight club.
   (New) The tenth rule of fight club is nobody should be the center of fight club. Nobody’s the center of fight club except the two men fighting. The leader’s voice will yell, walking slowly around the crowd, out in the darkness. The men in the crowd will stare at other men across the empty center of the room. This is how it will be in all the fight clubs.
   The eleventh rule of fight club is fight club will always be free. It will never cost to get in. We want you, not your money.
   The twelfth rule of fight club is if anyone ever tries to shut down the club, even me, then you have to get him by the nuts. In another words, don’t f--- with fight club.

Note: For your eyes only. Make ten copies.

---

The Rules of Project Mayhem

   The first rule about Project Mayhem is you don’t ask questions.
   The second rule about Project Mayhem is you don’t ask questions.
   The third rule about Project Mayhem is no excuses.
   The fourth rule about Project Mayhem is no lies.
   The fifth rule about Project Mayhem is you have to trust me.
   The sixth rule about Project Mayhem is don’t do homework assignments while you’re drunk.
   The fifth rule about Project Mayhem is only in death will we have our own names since only in death are we no longer part of the effort. In death we become heroes.
   The last rule about Project Mayhem is you don’t ask questions.

This is a bunch of misinformation and original research, which does not belong in Wikipedia. -- LGagnon 16:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "real" Fight Clubs?

I seem to remember that the film caused "real" fight clubs to spring up in the US and possibly in other countries. I have done basic web searches but have turned up nothing. Has anyone got specific info on this? It would be very interesting as a social phenomenon, given that the film's portrayal of violence was rather realistic - I mean, if it was glamorised violence then a "real" fight club would last about as long as it took for the club members to experience the real thing. But since the violence was not glamorised (relatively speaking), I wonder how the "real" fight clubs fared? Sociologically this would be fascinating... I seem to remember reading about it in a newspaper around 6 months after the film was released. If anyone can include a source or info I'd be grateful. Thanks. Ryancolm 11:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Aaargh! I've just read the reminder that this talk page is about the book, not the film. I'll take it to the film talk page. Apologies to all. Ryancolm 11:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Mayhem

Why has nobody made anything like that yet? I keep thinking that every time someone says wikiproject or project mayhem. It could be dedicated to all things Fight Club. Mooseofshadows 02:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Fight Club is really too narrow a topic to warrant its own Wikiproject. There's the novel, the film, the video game, and a rumored musical. That's pretty much it (unless somebody creates character articles, though that would be pretty redundant, as most information that would be relevant to such articles is already present here). Jeff Silvers 06:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critics changing views?

This article states that some critics changed their mind of concerning the movie after the movie came out on home video. However it does not state a source for this or cite examples. This information should be regarded as heresay and uninformative to the article as a whole. Agreed? Reaper Man 09:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reaper Man

[edit] Speculation

Perhaps it's just one of those odd coincidences that the story of "Fight Club" evolves elements similar to "Freedom Club" ... which only had one member.

[edit] Major Themes?

I think we should create a "Major Themes" section for the article, which outlines the themes of the book -- The Dehumanising effect of Consumerism; The Rise of Corporations; The Shattering of the American Dream; The Demasculation of Society; and The Theory of Anarchy. The book may deal with more ideas than this, and some of these headings could probably be merged, but I think these are the issues that are the heart of "Fight Club" and they deserve their own section. Even if each heading just gets a few sentences to sum up the theme, I think it would be a valuable start. You can find a number of essays on "Fight Club" at the site "http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/books/fightclub/". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dark Wolf101 (talk • contribs) 00:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

Stirrings Still as a source

[edit] Stirrings Still as a source

In the Subtext section the "journal" Stirrings Still is quoted as a source. Give me a break... Three "issues" hardly constitutes a "journal" worth quoting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.97.122.85 (talk) 09:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Stirrings Still as a source

In the Subtext section the "journal" Stirrings Still is quoted as a source. Give me a break... Three "issues" hardly constitutes a "journal" worth citing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.97.122.85 (talk) 09:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC).