Talk:Feudalism
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[edit] Fix page
hello, if there are any administrators out there, the feudalism page needs fixing, someones incorrectly tried to insert a picture, i'm not quite skilled enough to fix it myself.
It also lacks the infobox "Forms of Government." I don't know how to make it. Vegfarandi 20:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'd rather not. Feudalism is controversial if it even existed, much less it was a form of government. It's just so widely defined I don't think we should lend any weight to one view. Categories would be better. If anything feudalism could have its own infobox, although I'm not promoting that either, as again, categories do it better. -- Stbalbach 20:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
How do you report vandalism on Meta? There is some vandalism in this article, and I just wanted to know because I'm kind of new around here. Steptrip 01:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] etymology inconsistency
There is an inconsistency in the etymology section: it claims the word feudalism (as opposed to the word feudal) wasn't coined until the french revolution (which began in 1789), but then proceed to give an example of use of the word by the english novelist Tobias Smollett in a novel written in 1771. This is a non-trivial amount of time and should be reconciled or corrected. I don't know myself which one is actually right, but clearly they cannot both be correct. {{subst:unsigned:66.45.15.247 }}
- Yeah true.. feudal is older, feudalism is newer .. same idea though .. I edited the quote to reflect what he was talking about. -- Stbalbach 14:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Western bais.
This article was far to eurocentric. so i edited to contain a broader definition.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.10.60.191 (talk • contribs) .
- It's not a "western bias", the lead section describes the historiography of the term. This article is about European feudalism, others are in the Examples of feudalism article. If you want an article on Japanese feudalism than create one, although it appears Tokugawa shogunate pretty much has it covered. -- Stbalbach 20:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Islam contribution?
Islam made many contributions to Western Civilization Could there be any connection between Islam and the Frankish development of the feudal system? Jim Bart 18:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ?
When did feudalism end? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.229.240.66 (talk • contribs) .
Feudalism is still in power. However, it is cleverly masked. Feudalism is no different than elitism and bureaudemocracy. North Korea is a feudalist state. YellowRedBlackWhite 01:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
24.x.x.x, there is no general agreement on what feudalism is (or if it even existed), so depending on who you talk to, depends on what they will say. It also matters in what place your talking about. Examples of feudalism shows examples in Europe where feudal laws still exist today, but are those countries considered Feudal? You'll also find some people (like YellowRedBlackWhite) who see Feudalism everywhere with no clear definition and who use the term to disparage any system they consider backwards (which is in the spirit of the terms original pejorative meaning). So I guess to answer your question "when did it end", you have to be more clear what "it" is. This article talk about the many ways of looking at it. -- Stbalbach 01:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Feudelism Today?
Judging from some other people's comments, this article strongly needs a section on Feudalism today. Are there any remnants of feudal ideas and institutions in the Western World today? Why might some people argue that the special qualities of semi-feudal Japan or other countries are still useful? Signor Pastrini 18:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- See Examples of feudalism. Because of the difficulty and problematic nature of feudalism (as explained in the article), this is a general overview of the classic definition and historiography and some history - specific cases are in the Examples article plus across many other articles on Wikipedia. -- Stbalbach 18:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Inconsistencies?
As a non-historian, it seems to me a bit inconsistent that the introduction correctly refers to feudalism as a reciprocal relationship, whereas later, power of the vassal is cited as a reason to question the justification of the concept. If I accept that the relationship is one of mutual obligations, then this implies that the vassal also has some degree of "power" -he obviously has something that the liege wants to pay for anyway, and depending on the specifics, the liege enters additional obligations for getting it (such as sending support in the case of external invasion). In any case, the vassal providing something the liege needs or wants, he has by definition some degree of power over the liege. Conversely, while the King of the Regnum Teutonicorum was elected, until the decline of the Hohenstauffen, he very much HAD the power to revoke even fiefs of the most powerful lords, as Barbarossa did with Henry "the Lion". In later days, the emperors lacked the political clout to get away with such actions, but that could equally be seen in line with the decline of the concept. Nonetheless, I think that the notion in the article that feudalism has to be seen in a larger context is correct. I have myself had trouble to explain to others that the free imperial cities are in fact more of a type of special form of vassal, less of early independent "democracy". --OliverH 16:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- Feudalism is anything but consistent. That is one reason some critics believe it is an unworkable concept layered on the past that breaks down when looked at in specific cases. No one at the time had ever heard of a "feudal system". -- Stbalbach 22:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Change Name?
I at first looked up Fuedalism, but theres was no article on Fuedalism, rather Fuedal Age. I think the article should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheGamerDude (talk • contribs) 04:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Actual History
This article talks too much about the actual term and meaning of feudalism and not enough about the actual history, layout, origins, and development of feudalism throughout Europe during the middle ages.--J intela 22:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would disagree with "too much about the term" given how controversial the term is and how many definitions and usages it has. But I agree the actual history is not strong. Part of the problem how to approach it like Ganshoft, Bloch or Brown? One could write three separate articles that take very different approaches and be "correct" in all three. Or pick one approach and be POV. So we have the Manorialism article which deals with the Block approach. I suppose this article could stick with a Ganshoft approach since it says up-front that is what is being used. Although currently the "Origins" section is right out of Brown. -- Stbalbach 14:51, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
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- --J intela is quite correct, the article should address the layout, origins, etc of feudalism. Not only should this article address the downside of fedalism, it should also honor it with the positive aspects of a feudal society. I understand that democratic societies are bias against older forms of government, however it is the up to editors not to be against such a form of government. --Margrave1206 19:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
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- The problem is that historians are not agreed upon what, if any, were the "layout, origins, etc of feudalism", so there is no consensus to document in this article, whether positive or negative. So the article must necessarily qualify itself quite a lot, and perhaps point to other articles for a particular viewpoint. As noted, Manorialism gives one such viewpoint. --Delirium 23:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Torin
Some person has erased all of the feudalism article and changed it to torin was here. I don't know enough about it to change it.
– — … ° ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · Jy2414: Jy2414 20:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
