Talk:Fernando Alonso

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Contents

[edit] Nicknames

I've removed the sentence which indicates that his nickname is the "Blue Fenix". Google turns up only one hit for "blue phoenix" "fernando alonso" and zero for "blue fenix" "fernando alonso". Pburka 3 July 2005 17:36 (UTC)

Recently, two nicknames have been deleted from the article. I won't restore them, but I can give you more information about them in the hope they will be included in the article. They are "Magic Alonso" and "El Nano". Both are true nicknames for Fernando Alonso. Melendi is a musician famous in Spain, also Asturian like Alonso is, and composed a song titled "Magic Alonso" that reflects both nicknames. You can easily find its lyrics if you google for "magic alonso melendi". The title of the song reflects one name, and you can read and translate the lyrics to see that he also calls him "El Nano". "El Nano" comes from "El Enano" (i.e. "The Midget") and it's probably a fan-originated familiar nickname that simply refers to his height, because you can't bee too tall to be an F1 driver, as you know. Tall drivers have problems fitting in the cockpits. It's not meant to be insulting. "Magic Alonso", from what I've heard in the Spanish TV, comes from the fact that Alonso likes magic and can play some card tricks. He's supposed to have performed some of them in front of a group of journalists (but I'm having serious problems finding a reference for this) in private, and the nickname "Magic Alonso" stems from that. Not that he's so good that he does magic with his car or anything. It's about the card tricks. --212.59.223.235 11:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't see any problem in include the nickname 'El Nano'. Googles turns up near 300k hits for it, obviously almost everybody know that nick, and related it with Alonso, and Fernando recognize it. In the Spanish and Asturian pages include that nick, so it's seem ridiculous that it don't appear in the English one. Nickname 'Magic' is more controversly, because only a TV commentator use it, and cause the reference to Senna. Greetings. --Wikizin 13:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted the explanation to the nickname "El nano" which was wrong. "Nano" is just a commmon abreviation or nickname for "Fernando". Googling "fernando alias nano" gives a lot of results of fernandos nicknamed nano. Even if the midget theory was true the explanation still would be wrong because "enano" is a spanish word not a "asturian" one. I don´t know if asturian exists but if it does I guess the correct term would be "enanu" or "nanu".
Right, I have corrected it. --80.38.79.176 2:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I don´t understand your correction and I have deleted it. "Nano" is just a nickname for the name "Fernando" (perhaps this could be added in brackets). It is a common nickname and doesn´t come from "Nanu". The "midget theory" is irrelevant. I explained myself badly in my previous post.
It comes from 'midget' yes, Nanu is only the traslation to Asturian. --80.38.79.176 21:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the nickname again from "el nanu" to "el nano". As I explained early it is a common nickname for fernando. He is a spanish star not just a asturian one and the nickname used should be the more common one which is "el nano". I have never heard "el nanu" and I am Asturian. So is the spanish f1 commentator and calls him "el nano". The famous song about him by Melendi (also an Asturian) also uses "el nano".
And last but not least: fernando alonso+"el nanu"=231 hits in Google, fernando alonso+"el nano"=15000 hits.
So if you feel you must mention "el nanu" at all just put it in brackets (clarifying is a translation to asturian).
Wow my change lasted 5 mins, are you on post defending the honor of the Asturian language? Well since you did exactly what I suggested I won´t complain.
I didn't do it because you suggested anything, i only put it in the way that it was before somebody changed it. By the way, learn to sign your messages. --80.38.79.176 3:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

According to this website Fernando Alonso's nickname is Fer(as per his own admission), I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion so I will leave it up to those who regularly updates his profile to decide whether to include it or not. Fcf1 10:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

I was about to remove the last 5 paragraphs of the section "2005" and replace it with the paragraph by Mark83 in his last edit. Those paragraphs look more than a little biased, and what's more, some facts are inaccurate, as well. But then, looking at other parts of the article, I find that it has been modified in other places too, recently, and the writing style makes it look like something written by a fan. So I haven't deleted the last paragraphs as I was about to, and am instead awaiting a discussion on the whole article.

Below are factual inaccuracies (apart from the general bias) I've noticed in the last 5 paragraphs of the section "2005."

"In comparison to Räikkönen, Alonso had made significantly fewer driving errors than his rival (just one in Canada) and has been a model of consistency finishing in the top three more times than Räikkönen."

My memory isn't the best, but of the races in just the latter half, I distinctly remember Alonso making mistakes in qualifying in Hungary and Hockenheim. Raikkonen wasn't prone to many mistakes, either.

"Alonso was not only the fastest driver in qualifying but also matched the McLaren MP4-20’s speed, running with relatively the same amounts of fuel on board."

This is just speculation, isn't it? Since the Safety Car came on before the frontrunners had made their pitstops (not to forget Montoya retiring due to the drain cover incident), there is no way of verifying such a claim, other than believing press releases by the teams concerned, which are not exactly models of unbiased reporting - especially given that throughout most of the season, McLaren were shown to be qualifying with much more fuel on board than Renault.

Great Red Spot

Couldn't agree more, this page has changed a lot since I've last contributed. Some statements, while true, are surrounding by gushing praise that doesn't even come close to NPOV. I'll try and sort it out. Mark83 15:49, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
The 2005 section is much better now, but the "Early Years" and "Formula One years" section could do with a lot of improvements. They're still in a adulatory vein. Eg:-ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
"... someone who actually remembers that it's still a sport"
"Alonso is one of the few drivers capable of being on the pace every lap of every race and having a rare gift for driving around major problems while losing minimal lap time." (I remember reading this in some article, but still it's presented here as fact, when it's merely the opinion of that writer.) Great Red Spot


I agree. The article comes accross as a work of an Alonso fan and is VERY biased. Just one example: the Lauda quote makes Alonso look like being perfect (no driver is!). Lauda may have said it or not, but it's still just an opinion - probably being told when Alonso became a WDC, thus being naturally full of praise. (The other day Lauda will say the same of Raikkonen or Schumacher.) You can argue that we can include quotes on drivers in an article like that, but if we only use positive and praising quotes that can make the article biased. So I suggest the removal of the Lauda quote. 80.98.174.44 16:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


The comment about Alonso being "comprehensively ... out raced by Trulli in 2004" isn't backed up by the facts. Taking the first 10 races Alonso finished ahead of Trulli three times, Trulli finished ahead of Alonso four times and one or both failed to finish in the other races. 4-3 is hardly a comprehensive result. (Though I don't think anyone can argue about the same comment on qualifying).


Someone added a comment suggesting the Renault F1 team was disappointed with Alonso's performance in the 2003 season. I'm pretty sure that's out of context, because he finished with 55 points and his team mate Trulli scored only 33 (so Alonso scored 66% more points). I suspect the team stated they had predicted a superior result in general, so I'm afraid this needs a citation or clarification, or it should be removed. What do you think? --212.59.223.189 01:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If it's uncited, then in accordance with the rules regarding biographies for living people it should be removed. However, I feel we need to do something about the 2002/3 section: at the moment, it sounds too much like Alonso had an ideal debut season - first pole, first podium, first win et cetera. There's no mention of his race-stopping accident at the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix, for example, despite the nature of the collision. If we are aiming for a more NPOV article, some mention of the accident is warranted, albeit in a factual nature.
As for 2004, it should be noted that the results show a 41 to 26 points tally in favour of Jarno up to and including the US Grand Prix (as there were 18 races in 2004, this was effectively the halfway point). Even if we include the French Grand Prix, it's still 46 to 34. So on that basis, in the earlier half of the season Trulli did outrace Alonso - but as the article already says, that ratio did change as the season progressed. On that basis I'd say keep that section as it is. Davery06 19:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I've made some stylistic changes to the 2002-3 section (you don't win a pole position, you claim it or achieve it, for example) as well as giving the section a bit more weight and mentioning the Brazil crash. If anyone objects, feel free to revert it - just thought this section in particular needs more work. Davery06 13:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I think mentioning the crash is important, and it goes beyond NPOV. The fact is it was the worst accident Alonso has been involved in, and he was taken out of the track on a stretcher, so that is an important fact that needs to be mentioned in his biography article, IMHO. --212.59.206.25 22:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In the last days someone has been adding biased comments to the article. It's not that hard to be neutral, really. Just tell what happened, in the apropiate place and using apropiate words. I'll explain why I reverted the changes. About the comments on Schumacher in the second paragraph, the way of saying "however the Spaniard has a disliking for the German champion and after losing to Schumacher at the 2006 Italian Grand Prix he called the seven time World Champion 'the most unsporting driver in F1'" is out of place here. There is a context for the Italian Grand Prix, with a rain of critics from Renault to Ferrari after the controversial Alonso-blocking-Massa incident. The context is already there, and it's a much better place to add the sentence than to say it in the second paragraph. And, furthermore, saying "after losing to Schumacher" is completely out of place too, for several reasons. First, he didn't "lose to Schumacher". He retired after his engine broke. And he would have finished third anyway, not second to Schumacher. Second, and more important, if you say it that way it sounds like Alonso was pissed because he couldn't win and considered that Schumacher cheated during the race. This was not the situation. Third, you could have provided a reference for the quote, which is real as you can read if you search in Google.

About the comments on the 2006 Chinese Grand Prix, they suffer the same problem. The claim is that Schumacher passed Alonso in the second stint due to Schumacher's "superior driving skill". This is out of place again. I know it can be fun to discuss about Schumacher, Alonso or Raikkonen and who is the better driver. Proponents of Schumacher can simply point at the numbers: more championships, fastest laps, pole positions, etc. There's no need to add bias to the article by saying how Schumacher is superior because he passed Alonso in that case. This is not true. There's no denying that Alonso may have made a mistake defending his position there, of course. But such a thing proves nothing and the comment's only purpose is to add a bias in favour of Schumacher. Like if I said that Alonso passed Ralf Schumacher in Japan due to his superior driving skills. Simply not true, accurate or neutral. That would only favour Alonso, adding nothing to the article. So I think one should leave out those biased comments for a discussion forum, not for the Wikipedia article.

Finally, I think the one who added these comments was the same one adding similar ones some days ago and adding a prediction for the future about how Schumacher was set to win the 2006 driver's championship. I removed it because I didn't see any point in adding such a comment. As you see after Japan, things have changed. I was proven right. And even if Schumacher had won in Japan, predictions are not needed. Just like I said before, it's not hard to simply tell what happened in an accurate and neutral way. You only need to try. It's very easy. --212.59.223.49 11:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics

Could somebody check all the numbers from the statistics at the end of the article and the ones present in the F1 driver template? I know for sure the total number of points is 301 and the number of victories is 11, because you can count those easily from the data available at www.formula1.com. However, I'm not sure about the other numbers, and most F1 database websites are always a little bit behind in them. --212.59.212.111 22:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

At least, one of the Formula 1 databases from the "external links" section agrees with the current numbers. --156.35.192.4 15:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the number of fastest laps, the data provided by f1db.com lacks the 2006 Malaysian Grand Prix fastest lap, which was set by Alonso. Please, in the future double-check facts and don't simply trust one external source blindly. The other two statistics pages listed in the article counted 6 fastest laps and one of them had detailed data about them, that was easily checked against formula1.com. --212.59.206.105 19:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A worthy champion?

It might be a little messy as now, but I thought I'd start it and maybe you guys can improve on it text-wise. JackSparrow Ninja 01:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The "worthy champion" section falls short of Wikipedia's WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:OR policies. I've shifted it here to the talk page for copy-editing. --Muchness 01:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
"Despite the laurels, many question if Fernando Alonso is a worthy world champion, and didn't just have a lot of luck. Kimi Raikonnen was the faster in most of the races, yet was too often let down by the unreliability of his McLaren, and Michael Schumacher and Ferrari had the worse season in a decade.
More then any other driver, he complains if other drivers don't let him pass fast enough, giving him the nickname FerHANDo, referring to how he waves angrily at these drivers. A 2006 training incident with Robert Doornbos, in which he felt helt up and in return, slowed down, fully blocked and nearly drove Robert Doornbos off the track, is considered one of his weakest moments.
The 2006 Formula One season brought more critique to Fernando Alonso. After Michael Schumacher has won both the United States Grand Prix and the French Grand Prix with great power, he was once more accused of not being able to handle pressure, as he was nowhere to be found in the following German Grand Prix."
To go back in, it needs to be referenced (as does the rest of the article) and that means that you need to be reporting the views of significant commentators on the sport, not giving your own views. (That's not to say your own views are right or wrong, by the way, it's just that Wikipedia is not the place for them - see the guidelines Muchness points out above). 4u1e
The section is argumentative, POV and poorly written.
  • The title of the section itself should set off alarm bells that what follows might not be a shining example of Wikipedia NPOV!!
  • "Kimi Raikonnen was the faster in most of the races" ignores the fact that Renault were a lot quicker than McLaren at the very start of the season, which gave them a points cushion.
  • "More then any other driver, he complains if other drivers don't let him pass fast enough," Says who? Says the author, and that's the problem. Jenson Button likes to whine about blue flags!
  • "2006 training incident?" Interesting if true, but doesn't belong without a reference. "Helt up"?
  • Entire 2006 "critique" section is blatant POV! Who accused him of not being able to handle the pressure? I know some people did after Germany, but you have to name names and articles. He came under a lot of pressure last year remember. No mention made of Australian Grand Prix and Spanish Grand Prix which respected commentators such as Martin Brundle described as totally dominant performances by Alonso. "once more accused of not being able to handle pressure" Again, by who? Mark83 16:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I also heard that Fernando Alonso won the title by first Schumi's engine at Suzuka then his puncture at Brazil, but do keep in mind from Bahrain to Canada it was total Renault Domination(except Imola and Nurburgring where schumacher reigned supreme) then at Indy it was Ferrari Domination till the kings engine blew, but the good start really attribute to the win From:RIPped

[edit] Pic

The picture in the article of Alonso is horrible. Messy hair, big sunglasses, summer clothes, not even posing. Could anyone find one more recent and a bit more, you know, champion-like? :) Schumi has one! Raystorm 20:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What you want one with him and his beard RIPped

No. How about one on a podium celebrating a victory? Raystorm 17:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies

Maybe we should include a separate section for controversies for Alonso.

Eg The two incidents at Hungary race (the second one needs to be taken with care if to be included) and how he criticised formula 1 as 'no longer a sport' (all formula 1 drivers have to stood by the decisions) --Cyktsui 04:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you start a section about it, and move all the relevant article sentences there? I don't think anybody would oppose that, as long as you keep the NPOV. Many other articles have a similar section. --212.59.207.5 09:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

<ANON>: I think that FA controversy section should start with his collision in the INTERLAGOS GP ignoring double yellow flag causing red flag and the stop of an interesting race. I cannot understand why the biased editors don't make a controversy section . It is sure they're the same of MS article ,what a BIASED editors.

Why don't you just get on with it instead of moaning about it, Ernham? Bretonbanquet 18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Whoever started the controversy section needs to understand a couple of things. It needs to be properly integrated with the rest of the article. Its title can't be all uppercase. It didn't have the same number of equal signs after and before. It should probably be outside the Formula 1 section, like the "accolades" section is. The bullet list you tried to do didn't even show up properly. The sentences were all in telegraphic style and you didn't remove the controversy discussion present in the rest of the article, so as to move all the controversy discussion to that section. Do it properly or don't do it. Avoid seedy edits, please. --212.59.206.106 10:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Started it, but writing it slowly. --Cyktsui 00:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the sentences stating that: "TV footage shows Alonso braking unusually hard during a left side corner. Robert Kubica was running behind him and braked too, while Michael Schumacher passed both cars on the right. It remains unclear if Schumacher missed the red flags or it was Alonso's fault." TV footage shos nothing of the sort - it's impossible to tell if Alonso braked or Kubica speeded up. In fact Autosport.com quoted Kubica saying Alonso was driving at a constant speed. I also don't think there's ever been any question of Schumacher not seeing the red flags - he had driven most of the lap while they were out - indeed I think he even passed Button's stranded Honda.--Don Speekingleesh 20:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be clarified in some way. The controversy exists because some people say Alonso braked on purpose so as to force Schumacher to pass by. Alonso denies that. You said Kubica mentioned Alonso's speed was normal (a reference would be great). Also, Schumacher's quote might need to be modified because the paragraph looks dumb right now. Unfortunately, I don't have time for more edits and Google searches today. --212.59.212.115 23:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I took Alonso's picture at Renault; feel free to post one at Mclaren.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by VincentG (talk • contribs) 19:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

I assume that you mean that you have removed the picture of Alonso? (unfortunatly 'taking his picture' means actually photographing him, if you're wondering why your message is unclear). I've put it back, on the basis that the article is about 'Alonso', not 'Alonso at McLaren'. Yes, a picture of him at McLaren would be better, but not I think better than having no picture at all. Until the racing season starts it's very unlikely that we'll get a free use picture of him in McLaren gear. Cheers. 4u1e 20:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
You noted at Kimi Raikkonen that pictures of KR in Ferrari gear are available now. That may be true (and will soon be true for Alonso at McLaren), but this being Wikipedia, it's always better to have a free use image. The current image is free use (or labelled as such, anyway :-S) - a fair use pic of Alonso in McLaren gear would not be an improvement from a Wikipedia point of view, given that the current picture is perfectly adequate. 4u1e 20:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean a fair use? Is this a way of having the last word? I'm gonna find pictures for both of them and bye bye, these pictures are gone. You get it?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by VincentG (talk • contribs) 21:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

By the way, some profiles have no pictures, so it wouldn't hurt people either even if there's no pictures.

Vincent - first, you ,may not be aware, but the tone of what you have written is quite aggressive ('You get it?', for example). It's usually easier to discuss these things if we remain calm and neutral. My apologies if I did not achieve that in my earlier post.
As I hope I made clear in my previous post, if you can find a better picture then great - go for it! Having 'suitable illustrations' is one of the criteria for Featured Articles, and is strongly preferred for lower quality levels (Good Articles for example), although not compulsory. If we are looking to improve these articles to those standards, they should be moving towards meeting those criteria, which is why it is better, in my view, to keep the current pictures until we have better ones. After all in 10, 20 years time when Alonso has retired, no one will much care which team's overalls he is pictured in. :D There are more bad articles than good ones on Wikipedia, so saying that there are articles without pictures doesn't make it a good idea to take them out of this one.
You asked about fair use - You're right, I should have been clear about that. It's complicated, so here's a link to the page that explains Wikipedia's policy. Basically, we can't just use pictures we find on the net - they need to be 'free use', i.e. free of copyright restrictions. In some cases, under American law as I understand it, it is OK to use a copyrighted image if no other picture is available. That wouldn't be the case here, as there are free use pictures of Alonso available. I hope that's helpful, good luck in finding more up to date images. I sometimes find useful stuff at www.flickr.com, but you need to pay close attention to the copyright restrictions on each image. Cheers. 4u1e 23:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes Vincent, the tone of your last posts is not helpful. Keep in mind that we all want to see the article be as good as it can be, but we have to achieve that within Wikipedia guidelines and copyright laws. Regarding fair use; We have to provide a "fair use" rationale for every fair use image. A fair use rationale solely based on our preference for seeing Alonso in McLaren overalls (or Raikkonen in Ferrari ones) would be vulnerable to challenge. In my opinion we should wait until a free image is available, and it will happen eventually given the growing popularity of flickr etc. In my experience the US GP yields good images from Wikipedians and McLaren/DaimlerChrysler will be keen to show Alonso and Hamilton off in a major market. Mark83 23:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The McLaren "corporate" look has taken effect (the buzz cut): [1]. Please - this isn't an invitation for anyone to upload a copyrighted image. Mark83 13:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm - Ron doesn't control his drivers much, does he? The unlicensed picture of Alonso added by user:Turkish on 16 Jan will be automatically deleted tomorrow. To avoid having a blank gap, I'll reinstate the old one. Cheers. 4u1e 17:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Accolades"

Is there a need for this? There is no comparable section at Michael Schumacher. Mark83 18:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

By reading the article, I get an idea that Alonso is the best driver, any race that he could not win is not his fault. If specific examples are required, I can include them. --Cyktsui 01:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree there is a POV issue, as the comment above shows and my edits on 15th. I've taken another pass through and removed many "words to avoid", i.e. extraneous words that don't say anything extra but hint at POV. Having said that, I disagree with you Cyktsui that suggests that "any race that he could not win is not his fault". Could you give examples so we can discuss it. I've a few suggestions as to what you could be referring to, however I think they were in fact car malfunctions/team mistakes:
  • Monaco 2005 - Tyre wear. It is true that the rear tyres were badly worn. He had a queue behind him and it took the BMW-Williams quite a few laps to get passed.
  • Malaysia 2006 - Poor qualifying due to refuelling error. I remember at least one race where Pat Symonds said the team got the fuel wrong or the rig malfunctioned.
  • Germany 2006 - car uncompetitive. I distinctly remember Renault left their used tyres on display for all the world to see, they were furious with how they had blistered.
  • China 2006 - Poor tyre choice. Both Fisichella and Schumacher were over 5 seconds a lap quicker due to a poor tyre choice - I can't remember which choice it was (inters > slicks etc) but whatever it was it was the wrong time. Mark83 19:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I think about your rewrite, a few of them have been fixed. Thanks for that. However, there is still one that I can see (am I being too picky?):
  • At the Canadian Grand Prix Alonso made a mistake and crashed into the wall at the Villeneuve corner, damaging his suspension, after coming under pressure from the McLarens of Juan Pablo Montoya and Räikkönen. Sounds like McLarens were the cause of his crash. --Cyktsui 22:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
No can't agree, no matter how you read that sentence it was his mistake. What actually happened was he was in second, behind his team mate. He was faster than his team mate and was on the radio telling the team to get him out of the way. Meanwhile the McLarens were starting to breathe down his neck. The total pressure forced him into a mistake. The McLaren drivers were doing what any drivers would, trying to go as fast as they could. However, although I think you're reading too much into that, I have no problem with you changing it. Mark83 22:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me - he was unable to deal with the pressure of JPM and KR. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
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