Talk:Fermentation (food)

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The original Fermentation article mixed together information about food fermentation and biochemical fermentation and so I created this article to seperate that. Both of the fermentation articles, as well as the Industrial fermentation article could still use better organization I think. More citations as well probably. Jamesters 20:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beer as fermentation of wort

This discussion moved here from the user talk page for Webaware

When you say wort is too specific, are you referring to brews like chicha (masticated corn) where wort might not be the classical wort as most often understood? Isn't the liquid (spit) in chicha a wort?

Or, from another angle, saying fermentation turns grain into beer is like saying fermentation turns grapes into wine. Technically true, but somewhat lacking on the details / steps involved.

And, to be really nitpicky, it should read "malted grains" not just "grains".

And last, I apologize for not (yet - newly registered as Carbondog) having a registered name here, I'm working on it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Carbondog (talk • contribs) 2006-09-28T08:10:20.

The reason I reverted your changes about fermenting grains into beer was because wort is specifically the sugary liquid you get from mashing grains and sparging to obtain only the liquid. Not all beers are made this way.

Yes, chicha is an example, and the liquid isn't a wort. Chicha, BTW, can be made either by malting the grain or by masticating to introduce enzymes from saliva, and the liquid you ferment in isn't a big pile of spit! (I believe that a third way, once popular in Ecuador, is to use a mould to convert starches to sugars, much like rice wine).

Traditional African beers also don't follow the malt / mash / sparge / boil path, and often include unmalted grains and even bread, so it would not be correct to say that they are wort fermentations made just from malted grains.

For the Fermentation (food) article, please leave the specifics to the various beer pages, where they belong. cheers, Webaware 23:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations in History sections

Could Jamesters please add the sources to the appropriate section? What it says now could be an outright lie or a partial truth. This is not what wikipedia aims to provide, I feel.

[edit] Fermentation vs Putrefication

The article about salami uses the word "fermentation" to refer to the curing process where lactic acid is produced in the sausage (and other cured meats) to preserve it. The "Fermentation, Putrification, and Rancidification" section of this article suggests that meat products, lacking a significant carbohydrate component, cannot be said to "ferment." One of these articles is in error. I would guess that the article on salami is using the word "fermentation" in a looser sense than in this article. If it is common to refer to bacterially cured meats as "fermented" then then this article should point out the difference in terminology between the culinary world and the scientific world. Otherwise the salami article, and other articles about bacterially cured meats, should be updated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.119.245.55 (talk) 19:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

The salami page is correct: salami and similar fermented sausages have bacterial fermentation, which is why they require a source of sugars (historically whey from cheese making, and this also brought across the required bacterial cultures, but commercial manufacturers typically use dextrose and commercial bacterial cultures these days). The bacteria ferment the sugars to produce lactic acid, and this assists in the curing and preserving of the sausage meat. See this page for a pretty good description of the process. Further, the enzymes in the meat join in with some proteolysis to make it quite a party in there :) but this is all quite different to putrefaction and rancidification.

As to what the fermentation article says, I don't have the knowledge to correct it, but I agree that as it stands it isn't correct. Certainly, there are some meat and fish based ferments where sugars are fermented to organic acids - salami is an obvious example, ignored in this article, and my understanding is that fish sauces are also ferments. With the other examples given in that section, it could just be a difference in the understanding of terminology - lay people (like myself) tend to think of putrefaction as bad, whereas it may simply be a scientific term covering a form of what I would see as fermentation. For that matter, is proteolysis a form of fermentation? I've certainly seen it called such in a rather scientific book on fermented foods.

I'm going to tag the section for further work, in the hopes that someone who actually knows something about this can help! Webaware ^talk 13:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore: the Limburger cheese article specifically names one of the bacteria involved in its fermentation (and responsible for its strong smell). Webaware ^talk 14:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

And finally, just to show that many fish ferments are true ferments with lactic acid bacteria doing their "thing", see what comes up with this simple Google. Clearly, the section as written is incorrect. Thank you for bringing this up! Webaware ^talk 14:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I do have the ability to correct this section, and I work with a guy who is an expert in food fermentations, though I will not be able to get him to work on it, I can pick his brain if necessary. Time wise I'm limited in when I can get to it. I might be able to do it this weekend, and I'll copy it to my sandbox and see what I can do with it over time. I also just Happen to have a definitive 2 volume work on cheese manufacture/history so I can improve many of the cheese articles, as well. I have taught lab sections of food fermentations, so I will also mine my lab notebooks some. But just from what I can remember: Generally, fermented foods almost always include a lactic fermentation. This is because the reduced pH inhibits the growth of pathogens. After the fermentation though proteolytic and lipolytic organisms are often allowed to do their thing, and contribute to the flavor profile. I do not believe that this is technically considered to be rancidity or putrefaction, So I propose that the subject heading be changed to something more appropriate, perhaps "Role of proteolysis and lipolysis". Then I can trim it and add stuff about the role of non fermentative processes in the production of fermented foods. But, clearly the section was written by someone who had good intentions, in trying to clarify what fermentation is, they just didn't have a fine enough understanding of the matter (probably a microbiologist that was irked by what they thought was a misuse of the term "fermentation".James.folsom 16:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I did a little pre-investigation. Some of fish sauces and certainly the eskimo fish fermentation are/may not be actual fermented foods. But the fact that they aren't doesn't warrant a whole section explaining this. I will be ascertain whether they are in fact really fermented foods. If they are not then I will just create a little section that lists and links foods that are commonly thought to be fermented, which are in fact not fermented. So I propose that this section just be deleted, because as far as I can tell, the contents are either irrelevant, or inaccurate. Then later I'll add a section on the role of proteolysis and lipolysis in food fermentations.James.folsom 16:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

G'day James, thanks for taking a look at this. I think you're right, that section should probably be removed; it's always sounded somewhat pejorative to me, but I don't know enough about it to fix it. Anything you can offer here will be much appreciated. Also, if you're at all interested, we have a few fermented food recipes building up over at the Cookbook – just thought I'd mention that in case any of your old lab sections might fit in :) cheers, Webaware ^talk 23:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the section contradicts the Salami articles as it does not state outright that all meat products are putrefied, but rather says "there are a number of animal-based foods". I have also found a source that suggests Limburger Cheese is produced by putrefaction of the milk curd. My take on the section is that it is describing incidences where putrified foods are referred to as fermented foods, which is the author describes as technically incorrect. The information could well be factually correct by requires many cites. I suggest the section be merged into Putrefaction or similar with a summarised section and "further information" link in this article. It is also worth noting that according to the putrefaction article "In alchemy, putrefaction is the same as fermentation", which shows that at some stage the terms were interchangable. ◄§ĉҺɑʀκs► 02:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

your limburger source is in error(I'd have to check, but I also beleive that source has other factual errors as well); Limburger cheese is surface ripened by a strict aerobe (Brevibacterium linens), where putrefaction is a anaerobic process. B. Linens releases amino nitrogen into the cheese, from the milk protein. The flavor development that results is not understood. I suggest you get your cheese knowledge here: Cheese and fermented milk foods, The third edition is two volumes by Kosikowski and Mistry. Dr. Kosikowski was the standing authority on the manufacture and history of just about every cheese that exists. In any case, if there are foods that are not fermented in the strictest sense of the word, there is no need to do anything but point this out and provide a link to the products article. But, In my opinion it is not appropriate to apply the strict microbiology defintion of fermentation to fermented foods, as fermented foods don't necessarily need to be the result of the metabolism of sugars by glycolysis.

Thanks James. I think your final point sums this whole issue up best. ◄§ĉҺɑʀκs► 04:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I realized when I woke up this morning that have a half truth in my last post: That is in implying that fermentation is entirely by glycolysis, when it's actually uses only part of the glycolytic pathway, and finishes out differently in the absence of oxygen.James.folsom 16:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay here's the end result really: I discussed this with the expert I mentioned earlier and this matter boils down to semantics. If one considers this from the viewpoint of microbiology, then many fermented foods could be said to be putrified and even rancid. However the food science definitions for these terms are different. Food scientists use these terms to define product defects and so fermented foods that are not defective would be defined as rancid or putrified by a microbiologist where a food scientist would probably refer to the situation as flavor development by proteolysis and lipolysis. The food science definition of Fermentation is also more broad than the narrow scope of the microbiology definition. I would say we need a consensus on which viewpoint should be used for this article, because I don't think it is necessary to try and deal with this in the article. I think that given this is the food fermentation article, and there is a fermentation article, we should stick to food science defintions in this article. In anycase someone will need to decide, as I'm not good at deciding these things.James.folsom 22:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

G'day James, thank you very much for looking into all this. I suspected that it might come to this - a difference between technical (microbiological) terminology and food industry terminology. I would vote that the article should have some simple explanation of the technical differences between fermentation, putrefaction and rancidification, but somehow approach that without prejudice to the foods that involve "non-fermentation" ferments. As you say, James, in the food industry one doesn't talk about foods being putrefied or going rancid unless that's a bad thing. Certainly, this article need not get into the depths of it, nor single out specific foods as not being "fermented" just because they involve proteolysis or lipolysis. Anyone else have a comment? Webaware ^talk 00:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well Surströmming or fermented baltic herring is definately a fermented food, as the bacteria anaerbically breakdown glycogen and ferment the resulting glucose. Also according to the glycogen article, muscle tissue may contain as much as 1% glycogen, which when broken down can be fermented. Thse facts alone invalidate the opening paragraph, and the rest of the section is predicated on that paragraph. Hákarl, fish sauce and the alaskan rotten fish (stink head) are as far as I can tell not fermented in any sense of the microbiological term, but are universally referred to as fermented foods, though Hákarl, and stinkhead are not usually salted and are not really studied all that well, could undergo a fermentation of their glycogen. Fish sauce is the result of autolysis, or the enzymatic digestion of fish by the fish enzymes. Asceptically produced fish sauce lacks flavor, and so it is believed that there is some bacterial role in the fermenation. In any case considering the erroneous opening paragraph and the fact that debate over exactly what these other products are doesn't really belong here, I'm going to delete the section now.James.folsom 20:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I will also try to come up with a firm definition of what food fermentation is and change the opening to the article accordingly. Once this is done, and everyone has agreed on it, it will be easier to go forward with the development of the article.James.folsom 20:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

How would you guys feel about changing the name of the article? Maybe food fermentations, or Fermented foods?James.folsom 21:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

G'day James, I was thinking much the same yesterday! This article was spun out of the original Fermentation article when it started to become unwieldy, trying to meet the needs of food fermentation, industrial fermentation, and the science of fermentation. Given that the article discusses (in brief, so far) the products themselves more so than the processes, I would argue that "Fermented foods" would be the better of the two.

Regarding your recent changes, I like that the reduced section has been renamed to "Risks of consuming fermented foods", but now of course that raises other issues! Meat ferments in general can be problematic, and some of the nastiest food poisoning cases are related to process problems in fermenting things like salami. "Someone" should add something about that... (maybe I can, once you've finished doing over the article, unless you beat me to it of course!) Webaware ^talk 23:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I agree the the new section will need to be fleshed out, but I know it is important material that should be included and it had to start small and grow, I took the opportunity to get it going. Also we need to include the risks of consuming raw milk cheeses. Feel free to add whatever material you like when ever, I can work around you. This is preferred as I won't have much free time starting monday. I'm involved with one of the many research projects that were funded spur of the moment to study EC O157:H7 contamination of produce and I've got about 5 months to complete the project. So the bulk of my wikipedia work will go toward the EC O157:H7 article, since I will be wading through and writing stuff along those lines anyway. I'm likely to be working long hours until August. As far as title though, I was leaning toward "food fermentation" as a title, but it's kind of a toss up. Wikipedia will continue to have articles for individual foods, and specific info about the fermentation of individual products fits well those articles, so this article should just be a general overview of the types fermented foods/food fermentation. I think either title would do as this type of content suits either title. We should probably redirect the unused title. I'm close to a new opening paragraph for the article, check out my sandbox and give me feed back.

Sandbox looks good. I'll defer to whichever name you choose for the page, as either one suits me fine. I'll hang off on the other work on the page, until you've got your bit in. I also have work to do, plus am spending more time on b:Cookbook than WP at present. Will do over the section on foods by region when I get a chance, because it's just gotten ugly with all that stuff randomly listed. cheers, Webaware ^talk 02:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a question. Decades ago I worked for a winery, and I seem to recall that fermentation stopped when the percent of alcohol exceeded some level that would kill the yeast. If that is true, I would appreciate it if someone who has the data would put it in the main article on fermentation, and specify what percent of alcohol that is.