Talk:Feral cat colony
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[edit] Clowder ?
Clowder may be a the correct term for a group of cats, but term is rarely (if ever) used in the context of managed feral cat populations. Colony is the term that is used. I think we should revert back to the previous wording.
FelineAvenger 05:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Agreed --WikiCats 08:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Camberwell 00:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC) I don't entirely agree. I edited because there is a word that already exists in the International English language to describe a colony or population of cats. I was perturbed to read that in America people can consider a solitary cat to be a colony. Think about it guys. If a collective noun already exists why not use it? I have travelled to many, many English speaking countries where the term clowder is used. I had never heard of a "cat colony" until I came across it on Wiki. Colony, with reference to zoology, is almost exclusively applied to migratory animals (including we human colonialists). However, I think using both "Feral cat colony" and "clowder" is appropriate. At least that way people in the USA get to learn there is a collective noun. Moreover, I like cats, all cats, feral or otherwise, and clowder is such a cat word.
For the purposes of Wikipedia we are obliged to call things the way they are normally called in our references. Renaming could be seen as original research WP:NOR. --WikiCats 14:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Camberwell 18:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC) Do you really want to dumb down an international encyclopaedia by refusing to refer to a feral cat colony as a clowder? I've said the two words (well, one ancient word and your modern terminology) can co-exist in the same article. To quote you "we are obliged to call things the way they are normally called in our (American) references.". Does Wikipedia exclude International English in preference to North American English? Is there an in-built prejudice and agenda to Americanise the entire English language? From the WP:NOR; OR Is Exluded if: "it provides new definitions of pre-existing terms"; Clowder pre-dates Feral cat colony by some tens of decades and is the correct collective noun. However, as I said, I have no problem with nomenclature. Incidentally, how often have you heard people say; "oh, yeah, I don't know, what do you call a group of cats?" I still can't quite believe that the Feral cat colony article refers to debate about what multiplication of cats constitutes a colony. Duh!. Who's going to decide: Colony of crows or murder of crows. Colony of sheep or flock of sheep? Here try this: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22colony%20of%20cats%22 or http://www.google.com/search?q=clowder
- Can you find a reference that refers to a "Feral Cat Clowder". --WikiCats 04:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Camberwell 14:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC) I'm sorry, ignorance of the English language is not a defence. Clowder is a "collective" noun. You wont/shouldn't find anyone writing "feral cat clowder". The noun, cat, is made superfluous. It should be, and this was the point I was making, "feral clowder", though I do accept feral cat colony has crept into the language. I was trying to educate non-American, though still English speaking, people into realising there exists a collective noun and that feral cat colony is North American nomenclature...that is EDUCATION, the nub of an encyclopaedia. To be honest this was my first foray into Wikipaedia, and the more I look around, the more I find it infected with intellectual sloppiness. A brilliant way to inform and educate people.
Camberwell 14:21, 19 February 2006 (UTC) Reading back, I note that you have failed to answer a single one of my questions. What is the point of "Talk" if one party doesn't care to listen?
WP:NPA --WikiCats 14:37, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Camberwell 15:19, 19 February 2006 (UTC) I apologise, I've removed "your". Incidentally, I've found a considerable number of returned Googled searches actually refer back to the feral cat colony article on Wikipaedia...so the "search" result was massively misleading...and spreading less than accurate information. Is that permitted on Wikipedia? What I have written is nothing more than what is factually accurate, technically and linguistically.
BTW: You still haven't answered a single question.
FelineAvenger 17:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC) "Clowder" is a correct term to refer to a group of cats, but that doesn't necessarily make it the only correct term. Correctness is more than adherence to terminology that might be techically correct but otherwise unused in the context concerned except for a small number of individuals. (The Random House Webster's College Dictionary, 1991 edition — perhaps not the OED but still a comprehensive dictionary — doesn't contain the word "clowder" at all, despite including some British words/usage). Correctness also refers to the reality "on the ground" so to speak. In the context of feral cat populations, which is the one we're concerned with here, the term "colony", not "clowder", is the most common terminology used, including in the UK (see for example [1]. Search for "feral cat colony" on Google, and you get >27,000 hits. I would venture that although some of them have context taken from this Wikipedia article, you can find many that do not. Search for "feral cat clowder" and you get 0 hits. Search for "feral clowder" and you get 13 hits, most of which quote this Wiki article, the others quoting the same non-Wiki.
While the term "clowder" certainly can be retained in this article to some extent, the terminology in common usage should be emphasized. This would follow similar conventions in other articles. For example, the article on North Korea. Sure, the offical name of that country is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea", you don't find people editing the article to replace most instances of the words "North Korea" with the full name of the country or even the initials DPRK, or claiming that use of the terminology "North Korea" is an attempt to "dumb down" the article.
I support FelineAvenger's explanation. --WikiCats 03:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
The term clowder is used in the Cat article. Use the correct term. This is an encyclopedia, correctness must always prevail. Joelito 14:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- I believe the equal use of "colony" does help people grasp the signification of "clowder". I just did a quick search Altavista, and to my dismay, within the top ten references, I found one for New England Clam Clowder (yeeerk!). So yes, if this Encyclopedia can educate, I'd say use both terms, that will expand the vocabulary of the readers.--Ramdrake 20:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Colony competition?
I've heard many times that gangs of cats will fight each other for territory, resources, or dominance. This is if they do not get along and form an amalgated large cat colony. Is this true and should it be mentioned?
- It probably strictly depends on how overpopulated or how overcrowded the region is. It is possible (I think), but something strikes me that whoever came up with that wanted to make a point of analogy with street gang wars. If it exists, I would believe the phenomenon to be rare. Fights for dominance within the colony (cat colonies are usually somewhat hierarchical in nature - I will find you a quote on this) are much more likely.--Ramdrake 12:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Feral?
These cats that are called "feral cats" (according to the article) are dependant on humans for there food. They either steal the food or have it given to them. These cats have never really left home. "Feral" means an animal that has left domestication and gone wild. The offspring of these animals will never have human contact. The worst you could say about these so called city "feral" cats is that they are stray cats. --WikiCats 05:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- And cities don't have birds or rodents they can prey on, or do you figure they have totally forgotten how to hunt? I think you severely underestimate these cats' resourcefulness. Urban cat colonies can and are truly feral. I they were stray, the colonies would in all likelihood die off eventually. And I'd also like to know how you can in one sentence say that "these cats never really left home" and in the other "the offspring of these animals will never have human contact", which is to the best of my understanding, at the core of the definition of "feral".--Ramdrake 12:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Breeds arising from the gene pools of feral clowders?
I see two problems with this section. The article states that there are two breeds arising from the gene pools of feral clowders. However, only one breed is named. Why wasn't the other breed included? Another problem I have with this section is that the Egyptian Maus was not developed from an Egyptian feral cat colony in the 1950's. The [Egyptian Maus] http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/egyptian.html is a very old cat breed that was brought to North America in the 1950's. The Egyptian Maus happens to make up a large population of the feral cat colonies in Egypt but isn't the result of the feral colonies. Unless the other breed which is claimed to have devloped from a feral colony is listed and documentation provided referecing this fact this article should be removed. Documentation also needs to be provided backing up the claim that the Egyptian Maus was developed from a feral colony in the 1950's.
- The other breed that I know of but which is still under development is the American Keuda. I'll try to find a cite. Also, I have a problem understanding your distinction: the Maus make up a large population of the feral cat colonies, but are not a result of them? There are a number of breeds which are actually derived from populations of free-roaming cats, apart from the Mau and the Keuda: the Singapura (mostly a street cat) and the Maine Coon (a farm cat) also come to mind. I guess it depends on how much you accept calling any population of free-ranging domestic cats "feral"--Ramdrake 16:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
