Wikipedia talk:Featured list criteria

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[edit] Red links

While I fully understand User:Dmcdevit's revert, it leaves us with no criterion on red links in lists. This means that the sentence reverted is our de facto position: objections on the grounds of no red links may be considered invalid because no criterion is breached until such times as we agree one. That was my intention in adding the sentence in the first place, and not an attempt to circumvent discussion. So now we need to agree something. For the record, my own position is to retain the status quo; that is I believe no criterion is needed, just as with FAs. Filiocht | Blarneyman 08:37, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I would submit that having a sentence that says there is no criteria, and votes based on it are invalid, is much different than just not having any mention of it. That is why I was offended. (Though often, upon reading it later, my sarcasm looks a lot ruder written down, which is not how I'd like to be remembered.) So anyway, to discuss the actual criterion, I can't quite remember the article, but I do remember an FAC going down or being objected to for redlinks, especially with main subarticles that are considered standard. I do recommend that the following be added to the criteria: "the list should aid the reader in navigation by pointing them to the specific articles from a list of generally related ones." Not necessarily that wording. From the Wikipedia:List: "If the user has some general idea of what they are looking for but does not know the specific terminology, they would tend to use the lists of related topics (also called list of links to related articles)." That is why I think there should be some general kind of standard about red links. I certainly don't want a specific number set (ambiguity is good for special cases), but I would be satisfied if we could say a "large majority" should be blue linked. This is because I see this as pretty crucial to aid in navigation, the list needs to mostly point to articles to be very useful to the reader, according to one of the purposes of lists: navigation. --Dmcdevit 05:07, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Against which we might balance this form Wikipedia:Lists: "Development — Some lists are useful for Wikipedia development purposes. The lists of related topics give an indication of the state of the 'pedia, the articles that have been written, and the articles that have yet to be written." I'm not sure we need a criterion, but would go along with "large majority" if pushed to it. Filiocht | Blarneyman 12:44, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
"Large majority" seems like good wording, with enough ambiguity to allow for special cases. Kind of like asking for "consensus" in other Wikipedia contexts. As to the above point, I would say that links consisting mostly of red links can be extremely useful for development, but they fall down as examples of the best of Wikipedia content, which is surely what being featured represents. OpenToppedBus 16:09, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
In articles, many red links make the text less readable. In lists, this is not so much of a problem (IMHO); e.g. List of islands of Switzerland has a lot of red, but except if none of the lakes or rivers had an article, I don't think it's unreasonable. -- User:Docu
I agree with Dmcdevit and OpenToppedBus regarding the "large majority" wording; "featured quality" doesn't in my opinion coincide with a list of primarily red links. The guideline could be added under "useful". --Spangineer ∞ 15:13, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Based on this discussion and regarding the recent addition of a red/blue link guideline, I think the wording of the guideline should be along the lines of "A useful list is composed of a large majority of links to existing articles (blue links)", not "A list with a large majority of links to non-existent articles ("red links") is not considered useful." The two sentences do not mean the same thing. --Spangineer ∞ 19:31, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, and I just revised it. --Dmcdevit 19:47, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other suggested additions

Add any more below, I guess:

  • I wonder if we can agree on a policy about embedded lists. Certainly some of those may be featured worthy. (President_of_the_United_States#List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States comes to mind). But I don't know how it should work. Any ideas? --Dmcdevit 05:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Also, should we come up with any size restrictions besides comprehensiveness? The FA criteria has: "Length appropriate: Stays tightly-focused on the main topic, using summary style to cover sub-topics in other articles." If an article is only a list of links and it is still large, that can't count against it, I think, since comprehensiveness is more important. But if we allow embedded lists, then we'll have to take the rest of the article into account. So President of the United States, which is 52 kB, would be unlikely to pass FA for that reason, and we may want to think about that here. Another consideration: what about lists that are comprehensive but still small. To continue the example, take a look at List of Presidents of Somaliland. It's comprehensive and well done, but only three lines. Would we consider it? Just hoping to stimulate discussion. --Dmcdevit 05:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, President_of_the_United_States#List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States should probably be spun out of the article into a a separate List of Presidents of the United States (neatly making the article shorter and creating a feature-worthy list :). On the substantive questions, I think we should not feature embedded lists (can you imagine featuring sections of an article?) nor should we have any size restrictions - lists were always one area where the old 32k limit was waived. For List of Presidents of Somaliland to be featureable, I would want significantly more context. Perhaps it should be merged into a List of Heads of State of east African countries? -- ALoan (Talk) 11:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I'd agree on embedded lists and on size limitations, unless we set a minimum? Filiocht | Blarneyman 12:24, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
I think we could probably rely on "Exemplify Wikipedia's very best work" and "useful" as objections to a nomination of a list of three people. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:46, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
Fair point. Filiocht | Blarneyman 15:48, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
IMHO embedded lists should qualify. There are good reasons to keep President_of_the_United_States#List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States within the article, but this doesn't change its quality.
A list should cover its defined scope, but it needn't be exhaustive.
Personally, I think a list should have at least five items. List of Presidents of Somaliland exists because there is the same for other countries, but it's seems difficulte for it to be featurable. -- User:Docu
Also, List of Presidents of Somaliland doesn't have much potential for adding other types of material than the actual three lines, since it adheres to the format of other lists of presidents, as it should do. Some lists which were comprehensive at a mere three lines, or, say, eight lines, and didn't have to worry about being congruent with a particular format, might benefit from a more imaginative treatment. Say an outstanding references section, or brilliant prose in the lead section. If we do say anything numerical about length, I think we should follow the FAC criteria in specifying that excellent short lists can also be featured. Bishonen | talk 16:13, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree - excellent short lists should be featureable. List of Presidents of Somaliland is just not that excellent: if it had images of the presidents, perhaps short biographies, references, and a decent lead section, then it would be featureable - compare List of Presidents of the United States. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:30, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the statements about short lists being featurable, but just to clarify your (ALoan) statement about "short biographies", are you suggesting that shorter lists should have more content per list item in order to be featured? I not sure that I am necessarily opposed to the idea for now, but I just wanted to check. --Spangineer (háblame) 16:38, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think I am saying that a short list needs to have more content per list item for it to be an "excellent short list": for example List of moons of Mars would simply say "Phobos; Deimos" (although I suppose you could add the orbiting man-made satellites too) - would that be featureable? Even if it had images of the moons, links to appropriate references, etc? (Actually a bad example, since Mars' natural satellites does it better, but you get the point.) -- ALoan (Talk) 17:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe will nominate soon, need feedback

I will be splitting list of cultural and regional genres of music into User:TUF-KAT/List of genres of music by region and a list of genres of music by people. See the User:TUF-KAT/List of genres of music by region for the format I've come up with, basically nicked from list of popes. Would this seem agreeable? The references present so far are essays from a collection by various authors -- ideally, however, a reference should be more authoritative and academic than a world music book, but adding a separate reference for every region with a "music of" would make this page very long, so... Anyway, feedback would be most appreciated. Tuf-Kat 19:04, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

One, very superficial, response is that without gridlines, this kind of table becomes hard to read. Filiocht | Blarneyman 11:33, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
What's a gridline? Are you referring to the difficulty in remembering which column is which? If so, I agree, but I'm not sure how to make it easier. Tuf-Kat 22:27, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe gridline is not the right word. I mean horizontal and vertical lines to make it easier to follow across roads. Does anyone know how to do this? Filiocht | Blarneyman 07:25, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
I added colors to the columns. Does that help? On an unrelated note, do all lists really need references? This is primarily meant as a list of articles that either exist or should soon, to aid in navigation. References should be in their respective articles, I think, but only make User:TUF-KAT/List of genres of music by region even more bloated. Tuf-Kat 20:35, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Also, I notice a lot of lists with countries on them have begun using the little flag icons (e.g. European Constitution#Parliamentary approval of the Treaty). Is this considered standard now? Should I implement it? Tuf-Kat 20:42, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
I think the flags are pleasing to the eye (and may be your best way to fulfill the images requirement). --Dmcdevit 20:47, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Absurd ways of construing "comprehensive"

Believe it or not, at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_list_candidates, it is being claimed that list of religious topics should never be featured because we can never hope to prove that every possible religious topic that anyone could ever think of is listed there. Only things like list of presidents of the United States, in which we can prove that every president is there, can be considered comprehensive, on this view, and therefore only those can be featured lists. I proposed list of lists of mathematical topics (NOT list of mathematical topics) as a featured list. It is comprehensive in any reasonable sense of the word, and it's really an amazing work. But it's being opposed on those grounds. Michael Hardy 22:24, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new criterion: List-ness

Well, "List-ness" is a bad name, but what I mean with it is that featured lists must not be substitutes for categories. I.e., having a list instead of a category must be justified - An alphabetical, non-annotated list with no images would be perfectly acceptable under the current criteria. Note that a category can also have a lead section of sorts. -- grm_wnr Esc 03:16, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sometimes an alphabetical list is all that is needed. With categories, one can't be sure you got all elements. It currently already reads "Annotated with additional information as appropriate". Besides, even if it's featurable, it won't be featured. -- User:Docu
I think one could argue that an alphabetical list with no annotations would not be featureable material, in accordance to the current criteria (see "useful" and especially "well-constructed"). I think with those two criteria, the door is open for people to object based on them, which would require the list to be redone and not featured until the objections are addressed. I would probably not be opposed to a minor wording change that clarifies those two criteria, however. --Spangineer (háblame) 12:48, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dynamic lists

Personally, I think lists such as List_of_songs_whose_title_includes_geographical_names don't need to list all of them to be featurable. Thus, I'd like to reprase "comprehensiveness" from:

"Comprehensive: Covers the topic in its entirety; does not omit any major components"

To:

"Comprehensive: Covers the defined scope; does not omit any major components.

-- User:Docu

I'm not sure how much difference there is between the two versions, except that the word "entirety" is not explicitly included in the revised version. "Defined scope" seems ambiguous - where should the scope be defined? Can I create a list and call it "List of presidents of the U.S.", even if it only includes presidents up to Abraham Lincoln so long as I say in the lead, "This is a list of presidents of the U.S. up through 1865"? And where in List_of_songs_whose_title_includes_geographical_names is the scope defined? Is the scope only "famous" songs, or "famous" places? Or is the scope "whatever we can think of at the moment"? This is not to be critical, I'm just trying to understand what the new version is trying to accomplish. --Spangineer (háblame) 22:23, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
List_of_songs_whose_title_includes_geographical_names includes {{dynamic list}} which defines the scope as necessarily non exhaustive. If it would lacked the 5-6 songs everyone would expect to find in there, it would omit a major component. If there is a reasonable argument to be made to limit the list of presidents to 1865, it would be ok. The list of presidents couldn't be dynamic and featured IMHO. -- User:Docu

I updated the wording as per above and included {{dynamic list}} -- User:Docu

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I think you're on the right track, though I'm a little bit unsure of the current wording; it might be a bit confusing. I'll think about it some more. --Spangineer (háblame) 11:00, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I changed the wording, so please take a look at it. I think Michael Hardy's addition (see history) is covered in the "major component" part, if you disagree, let's work on wording for that as well. --Spangineer (háblame) 10:28, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

I'm posting Filiocht's proposal here for more discussion; I'm not sure if I agree or not. He said 'I would also propose that the criteria be ammended to read "Includes references where appropriate"' in the context of the List of lists of mathematical topics. Thoughts? --Spangineer (háblame) 13:00, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I suppose, but in any case, couldn't some external link to a useful website, that may not have been usd in writing the article, always be scrounged up? And shouldn't there always be some "See Also" WP links? It's just, if we make references optional, I don't want the bottom to be totally bare, so we could require a See Also or External Links section. --Dmcdevit 18:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Adding "where appropriate" is fine with me. We wouldn't want sections to be added just for one to be there. -- User:Docu

I agree. Sometimes references are not appropriate. Michael Hardy 00:08, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This may be silly, but...

...Shouldn't it be Wikipedia:What is a featured list? (note the question mark)? Either that or Wikipedia:What a featured list is, but I like the first better. After all, it's a question, right? Things like these bother me sometimes, so excuse me for wasting your time. --Dmcdevit 07:19, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. I've moved it. Filiocht | Blarneyman 07:40, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
 :) --Dmcdevit 18:39, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What about Wikipedia:What is a featured article - shouldn't it be at Wikipedia:What is a featured article? -- ALoan (Talk) 18:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, yes. Filiocht | Blarneyman 07:31, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. "What is a featured article", with no question mark, is, aside from a possible slight difference in emphasis, synonymous with "What a featured article is". Michael Hardy 21:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Huh? Grammarily speaking, if you're not taking it to be a question, as I had assumed, then aren't you saying that "What" really is a featured article?! --Dmcdevit 21:17, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. It means the same thing as "what a featured article is", or, if you like, "A featured article is what". The subject comes after the verb, as in "A merry old soul was he". My first name, Michael, is reported in some old reference works, to me "Who is like God", with no question mark, i.e., in early-21st-century colloquial English, "one who is like God". Syntactically it is somewhat parallel to a dictionary definition of the word visible, that says "that may be seen". Apparently dictionaries don't use that syntactic form anymore and maybe we've now reached the point younger people are confused by it. Michael Hardy 21:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed emendation to the list of criteria

Covers a topic that lends itself to list format by bringing together a group of related articles that are likely to be of interest to a user researching that topic

"Researching" is too narrow; it means you have a clear idea what questions you want to ask about the subject. One of the current candidates is absolutely magnificent for use when you're browsing to learn about the subject without yet knowing what questions to ask. That is an important part of learning, and an important reason to regard some lists as immensely valuable. See the comments at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of lists of mathematical topics under "Being a partial reply to Dmharvey's question posted above". Michael Hardy 20:23, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

How about changing "reseaching" to "interested in"? Filiocht | The kettle's on 07:09, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

"Interested in" sounds good. But "interesting" and "interested" sound awkward so close together; it should be rephrased a bit. Michael Hardy 02:10, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Amendment of criteria (usefulness)

As a list doesn't need to link to numerous stubs to be useful, I suggest to update the criteria to:

Useful: Covers a topic that lends itself to list format likely to be of interest to a user researching that topic (See Wikipedia:List). When linking to articles, the list should be composed of a majority of links to existing articles (blue links).

-- User:Docu

Sorry - should have replied before. The regular comments on FLC indicate that most participants think that a list needs to link to other articles to be useful: a list with a preponderance of redlinks (or indeed very few links at all) is just not that useful. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
There is no change on this, a preponderance of non-redlinks would still be required, lists may still link to others. Besides, generally, people just refer to this page, which refers to Wikipedia:List. The later page doesn't note add any additional conditions. The current version may lead to a series of stubs just created to reduce the number of red links, but not including more information than already in the list. -- User:Docu
My concern is that your amendment could be used to justify acceptance of an unwikified list - Wikipedia is not paper, and one of its strengths is being able to link topics together. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
"Wiki is not paper" doesn't mean that all lists need to be completely wikified. Besides, there isn't much to worry, obviously, a list with a {{wikify}}-tag isn't featurable. -- User:Docu

[edit] List criterion that requires links

After some discussion on the project talkpage of Featured List Canidates, an interesting point has risen regarding the format of lists being only consisted of blue links. Recently having nominated List of Mega Man weapons and taking a gander at a few other lists, I noticed that not all lists have links all around to plead completeness.

The criterion states ...A useful list must be composed of a large majority of links to existing articles (blue links). However, should a list have only links for each subsection, then List of Mega Man weapons would merely consist of stub links. I'd like some second opinions on this. -ZeroTalk 14:58, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Please: the singular is "criterion". Michael Hardy 00:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Thank you for amending my failing in my rushed attempt at grammer. Could you please answer the question...? -ZeroTalk 10:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
See #Amendment of criteria (usefulness) above. -- User:Docu

[edit] Glossaries

Would a glossary or terminology be considered a list? Such as Numismatic terminology? If yes, then I can work on it. Joe I 12:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changing a criterion

At Wikipedia:List guideline, the first "purpose" of a list is:

"The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists."

Currently, a featured list must have a good amount of blue links to pass, and that seems to favour lists which are used for navigation, and not those for information. Also, it says that lists are used for development, and the featured list criteria seems completely set against this. A good, and complete list should not require blue links throughout it. The current criteria favours one of the purposes for lists, and completely ignores the other two. There are many subjects which could have brilliant lists, but do not have enough contributors to create the hundreds of articles which could be required. --liquidGhoul 14:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Let's amend the criteria accordingly. -- User:Docu
Can you give an example of a good list that contains hundreds of redlinks? -- ALoan (Talk) 10:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
List_of_Presidents_of_Venezuela would have been just as valuable without the stubs were created shortly before it was nominated. (Many of the stubs had to be fixed and included less information than the list, apparently this didn't affect the featuring-process though). -- User:Docu
List of plesiosaurs and List of crurotarsans are good list which have heaps of red links. Though they aren't what I call featured quality, but I am sure that they could be. List of Lacertilia families, List of Serpentes families and List of Testudines families are all good lists, which are currently incomplete, but once the extinct families are added, they will be flooded with red links and never pass the current criteria. --liquidGhoul 11:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  1. You cannot navigate through topics where the links to most of the articles are red.
  2. The purpose of featured content is to highlight good quality content in Wikipedia at an advanced stage of development. FAC will also reject good articles with a high level of redlinks.
-- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 11:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Navigational lists are generally included in footers, e.g. Template:Current U.S. Senators. They are not really featurable as such.
The Venezuela presidential stub hadn't affected the good quality content of the list. IMHO red links would have been preferable for users than finding the stubs. -- User:Docu
This is Featured lists not Featured templates. Template:Current U.S. Senators would never survive as it is in the Article namespace. It is also arguable whether a template is encyclopedic content at all. Template:End certainly isn't, but is used in a large number of articles. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 13:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Can you give an example of a FA which failed due to red links? Nowhere in the FA criteria are red or blue links mentioned, and you can only fail things from the criteria. Navigation is not the only point of lists, read my first statement. Currently, the FL criteria only concentrates on navigation, when there are other reasons a list can be useful. Secondly, the point of Wikipedia's featured content, is to "exemplify our best work". If someone creates an incredibly beautiful and useful list, which has lots of red links, it could still be Wikipedia's best work. That list's purpose would be information, not navigation, and the presence of red links would be completely irrelevant. Also, by the way things currently work, it doesn't matter whether the blue links have empty articles, they just have to be blue. If the point of a list is navigation, then a featured list should only be granted if all the links contain articles which give lots of information. If it wasn't for me expanding more than half the Anuran families, the List of Anuran families would contain more information about some families than the actual articles do! --liquidGhoul 11:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
FAC criteria don't require the use of m:cite.php (use is only "encouraged") but no article will pass it if it does not use it. Same thing with redlinks, but at least on FLC we make that fact clear. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 13:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, an unlinked or largely redlinked list does little to demonstrate the best qualities of Wikipedia. List of current United States Senators and List of former United States Senators are bothis very good. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
To compare with List of current United States Senators: Canada has a (possibly complete) list of current (and former) senators (see {{SoC}}), that is just as good, and, with the red links, possibly more valuable than the two US ones. -- User:Docu
List of former United States Senators might be better if it included all senators (if there are any left without articles). -- User:Docu
Sorry - had not spotted the "incomplete" in the "former Senators" list. It would be interesting to know how many are not included.
I have seen articles receive objections on FAC due to a large number of redlinks, but usually in combination with other objections too. The spin off effect (creating stubs for linked list entries) is one of the benefits of this requirement, IMHO. A stub is more useful to a reader than a redlink; the only drawback is that a person seeing a blue link may not be motivated to write a better article, when they would have been if they had seen a redlink . -- ALoan (Talk) 11:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't get it. What is the benefit of a stub? --liquidGhoul 12:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Some information is better than no information. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that the stub may include less information than the table .. -- User:Docu
So copy it! -- ALoan (Talk) 10:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Then the article would contain the same amount of information as the table, and it is still useless for navigation. Your whole point of it not being Wikipedia's best work if there are red links is void if a blue link contains an article with no extra information. --liquidGhoul 10:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
You are assuming that people will only get to the articles through the list, which in many cases is obviously not true. If people arrive to a stub from a related article on a subject, then the information they get from it is many times more useful than the redlink. That may also encourage people to expand a very short stub, or at least give people more information to refine a Google search. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 13:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
That has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. I am not questioning the validity of stubs. I just don't like that people have to create them to get an informational list passed, when its purpose is information and not navigation. --liquidGhoul 14:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I was just replying to your objection on stubs. If you're going to get worked up on this topic I may as well end the conversation here. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 16:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not getting worked up over it, and I don't see how you could see that. I was replying to your objection, which is not related to this discussion. I would rather say that, than to reply as if it is valid. Getting back to the subject, I would like to relpy to something written earlier. Do you have any examples of a FAC failing (or looking like it would fail) due to red links. The use of meta:cite is still mentioned in FAC criteria, whereas red or blue links isn't anywhere near it. --liquidGhoul 00:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of rock and roll albums and Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of state leaders in 1339 for two nominations that didn't pass because of redlinks. Also see Wikipedia:Featured list removal candidates/Sri Lankan national cricket captains for an example of a list that was defeatured because of excess redlinks. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 12:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I said feature article candidates. You said above that articles may not become featured because of red links. --liquidGhoul 13:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not aware of a FAC failing in recent memory simply because of redlinks, although an excess of redlinks is often indicative of other problems, and a number of people feel that a featured article should not have too many.
But, in a sense, this discussion is getting the cart before the horse. WP:WIAFL sets out the criteria that we, as a community, think are important for our best lists. When WP:FLC was set up, there was clearly a concern that a list that represnets the best in Wikipedia should not have too many redlinks (see the second section on the talk page!). -- ALoan (Talk) 13:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I read that before I posted this. It was your point in that discussion which made me notice that there was a problem.
"Well, shouldn't we be judging the list, not the article that the list links to?"
The only argument against this reasoning, was:
"But it is not just that, one of the main purposes of a list, as seen on Wikipedia:List, is navigation for readers who only know the general topic and are looking for a specific article
Therefore, the decision was based on the list guidelines, but did not include the entire guidelines. Yes, the development lists should not become featured as they are more for the writers, but a comprehensive information list should, reguardless of the number of red links. --liquidGhoul 13:56, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, thanks for the compliment, and I hope I am not being too inconsistent with my stated position just over a year ago: I went with the consensus when I edited WP:WIAFA to add the redlinks requirement (see the edit summary here) and, from what I have seen on WP:FLC, there is still a consensus for that requirement to remain (or, at least, no consensus for it to be removed).
I really don't think List of plesiosaurs is a patch on List of Serpentes families. However comprehensive the former may be, and however well-referenced and well-illustrated it may become, it is really not an example of the best that Wikipedia can offer while it has quite so many redlinks. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree it isn't featured worthy. I think it was created as a development list, so it should never really become featured. I am still working on the reptile lists, but still don't know what to do with the extinct families. You will probably see them on FLC in a couple weeks. --liquidGhoul 15:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

(left) I don't get it. What is the benefit of a stub? ... I am not questioning the validity of stubs. Massive interlinking and ease of navigation is one of the best qualities of Wikipedia, which our featured content should illustrate, no? Looking at your suggestions, List of Serpentes families could almost certainly become featured with little effort, I should have thought. Why not limit it to extant families, and have a separate list of extinct ones? It shines in comparison with List of plesiosaurs. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I would still rather have the extinct families included in the same article. Creating one article is better than two short (that's just my opinion of course). Yes, I do believe that navigation is one of Wikipedia's best qualities, but if I had submitted List of Anuran families with all the families red linked, and someone can through and said
"(family name) is a family within the order Anura"
and added a taxobox. Would that be any better than just having the list? --liquidGhoul 00:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
To be honest, yes, I think that would be better to have an article with a couple of sentences, a category or two and a taxobox, rather than just having the list. If you went down to a single sentence without the taxobox or categories, then I think it is arguable that a redlink would be better, to encourage someone to write something better instead of making them think that someone had done it already. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Please change this guideline. Redlinks are a very useful part of wikis. They inspire people to write articles. I created scores of stubs to get List of largest suspension bridges accepted as a featured list. I don't think that was a good thing. Here is why. I used to like to write bridge articles and get them listed at WP:DYK. I've stopped doing that now that they are all stubs. There are few rewards at wikipedia, and while we should all have the best motivations, getting things posted on the front page, putting a star at the top corner, or listing an article as something you created on your user page are some of the few feathers we can put in our caps. I was really excited as a newbie to find a red-link to a subject I knew something about, and wanted to write about. Red links are good.

I have seen the comment "one of the main purposes of a list, as seen on Wikipedia:List, is navigation for readers who only know the general topic and are looking for a specific article". I believe this is left-over language from the time before categories, when lists were the way people navigated through Wikipedia. Ironically, these lists are the ones which are now the least FL worthy. I would like the featured list criteria to ONLY promote lists that stand on their own as a source of information. If someone creates a thorough, useful list comprised or red links, this is a very useful thing. Not only does it present useful information, it brings attention to an entire field of knowledge that is missing. This is a very good thing. It is worthy of note. FL status will encourage others to make similar lists. FL status will bring it to the notice of more people, who will see the red links, which will lead to more articles. All of this is good. -- Samuel Wantman 07:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I am rather concerned if writing a stub has dissuaded you from expanding the article further. FYI, WP:DYK will accept not only brand new articles, but also articles that have been expanded significantly beyond their original stub status. -- ALoan (Talk) 09:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This is good to hear. They used to reject articles that were expansions of stubs. I'm sure I will continue to write these articles. Perhaps I am just burned out from writing all the stubs and don't want to look at a bridge for a while. -- Samuel Wantman 09:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright

If no public domain images exist, can a list become featured with images using fair use and used with permision tags? --Arctic Gnome 17:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It can and has in many of the previous featured lists. As long as all the images pass WP:FUC and have proper fair use rational write-ups on their image page, then it shouldn't be a problem. -- Ned Scott 06:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finished Appearance

I wonder if it would be useful to have the criterion:

  • Finished appearance: Does not give the impression that it is still a work in progress.

This can be thought of as a clarification of the comprehensive criteria, which currently is concerned only with the presence of list entries rather than the details of each entry. It might be possible to combine it:

  • Comprehensive and of finished appearance: Covers the defined scope by including every member of a set, or, in the case of dynamic lists, by not omitting any major component of the subject. Does not give the impression that it is still a work in progress.

This is intended to discourage featuring lists (often in table format) that have a significant number of gaps or empty cells, where one could reasonably expect a finished work to have the data. Examples:

I think this criterion is needed to be explicit for FL rather than FA. Firstly, our current text is specifically concerned with the presence of entries for the list "set". The FA text says "does not neglect major facts and details" and it is the details bit I'm trying to cover here. Another difference with FA's is due to the way lists are constructed. Often a skeleton list takes shape, including all the entries, before all the details are filled in.

An alternative phrase might be apparently complete. We all know Wikipedia articles continue to change and evolve. A reader looking at featured material is entitled to expect to get the impression of a finished work.

Thoughts?

Colin°Talk 17:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a tension between requiring completeness and requiring verifiability. Information could be required to be is included (to meet the completeness requirement) but also required to be excluded (because it is not verifiable). Locks on the Kennet and Avon Canal is a case in point - the missing information simply does not exist in a verifiable source, as far as the authors have been able to discover. I think "comprehensive" does this to a sufficient extent already - the whole of the defined scope must be included, and no major elements missed out. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

The new rewritten WP:WIAFA seems to have bedded down well, so I thought it was worth trying to rewrite the FL criteria in a similar style (the original FL criteria were based on a modified form of the old FA criteria in the first place). I have copied the new FA criteria over, and then amended to remove the FA criteria that we don't use (well-written, neutral, length) and add in our extra ones (useful, uncontroversial, well-constructed). I have tried to keep the paragraph numbering the same (so (b) is "comprehensive" in both, for example) to make it easier for FA reviewers to make the transition to FLs, and vice versa.

Comments, as ever, are welcome. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Surprisingly I did not have this page watchlisted and only noticed the changes now. Well done with the rewrite! -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 09:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Captions

The current criteria state:

It has images if they are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status.

The requirement for captions resulted in debate at

I think that for such table-lists, the need for a full explicit caption is eliminated by the fact that the row identifies the person being illustrated. There is an argument that a caption provides extra info on the picture itself (location, context, date, artist, etc). The Wikipedia:Captions guideline says

Not every Wikipedia image needs a caption: some are simply decorative. A very few may genuinely be self-explanatory. If you decide that an image does not need a caption, then please follow the advice at Wikipedia:Alternative text for images to specify appropriate "alt" text.

Therefore I suggest the FLC be rewritten:

It has images if they are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions or "alt" text and acceptable copyright status.

Colin°Talk 12:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Alt text would be fine; it's just the table will be a mess if there are captions. --Majorly (Talk) 13:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Images in tables rarely need captions. --ALoan 14:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I think "alt" text is a perfect solution. I really did not strongly want to have captions, so much as I wanted the issue clarified. Which seems to be happening. So perhaps there is not really much debate needed here since I am the only one who made comments saying captions were needed--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 16:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The text has now been changed. Colin°Talk 17:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Useful" criterion

This currently states " 'Useful' means that the list covers a topic that lends itself to list format by bringing together a group of related articles that are likely to be of interest to a user researching that topic. (see Wikipedia:List). A useful list must be composed of a large majority of links to existing articles (blue links)."

There have been a couple of recent nominations (specifically on Administrative divisions of Adygea and Chicago Bears seasons) where the article does not list "a group of related articles"; the article lists a group of related items, many without articles of their own.

Should the criteria be changed to reflect this? Tompw (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Yes. Renata 21:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Nice you agree with me :-).... question is, what to? Tompw (talk) 23:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I also agree with this change. Tuf-Kat 21:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  • How about this wording:
'Useful' means that the list covers a topic that lends itself to list format (see Wikipedia:List). This can be either by bringing together a group of related articles (in which case it must be composed of a large majority of "blue links" to existing articles), or by listing items which in themselves would not merit individual articles but which as a group would be of interest to a user researching the topic." --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 14:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I note that the Featured article criteria do not mention blue links yet an article with lots of red links (or that was insufficiently wikified) wouldn't pass the grade. Similarly, I note that these criteria don't mention "well defined entry criteria" even though that is a significant objection. It can be argued that those ideals are covered by other guidelines. How about if the Useful criterion gave a few examples:
'Useful' means that the list covers a topic that lends itself to list format (see Wikipedia:List). For example:
  • The list brings together a group of existing articles related by a well-defined entry criteria.
  • The list is a timeline of signficant events on a notable topic, the inclusion of which can be objectively sourced.
  • The list contains a finite, complete and well-defined set of items that naturally fit together to form a signficant topic of study.
Since the set of items is weakend by not requiring articles, I've strengthened the other aspects. I think the third example fits the Administrative divisions of Adygea. Thoughts? Colin°Talk 22:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, Administrative divisions of Adygea does have a list of articles (the 7 districts, Giaginsky, Koshekhablsky, Krasnogvardeysky, Maykopsky, Shovgenovsky, Takhtamukaysky, Teuchezhsky) and Chicago Bears seasons lists the NFL seasons while also giving details of the Bears' performance, but I see what you mean about Narnian timeline.
    I am not sure how seriously an objection over redlinks would be taken on WP:FAC. The rationale for including it here is to avoid featuring lists of things for which Wikipedia has essentially no useful content.
    I would argue that a decent "entry criterion" is part of comprehensiveness and verifiability - how do you decide what to put in and what to leave out; and is everything that should be included mentioned. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I would want to add to the third point something like "...and the set's members are not notable enough to have individual articles". If any items in the list are notable enough to have articles of their own, then they must do so if the list is to be a FL. For example, the villages in Administrative divisions of Adygea weren't notable enough to justify articles. However, the elections in List of Nova Scotia general elections were and are all notable enough to have indivual articles, and that list didn't get FL status until most of the elections were no longer redlinks. (Btw, the "complete" bit on the 3rd point is already covered under the "comprehensive" criteria, so is redundent.)
    Interestingly, the 1st point is actually stronger than the current version, as it effectively means *all* the items on the list be bluelinks (which I agree with) (memo to self: deal with remaining redlinks on List of Nova Scotia general elections)
    With regard WP:FAC being OK with redlinks.... the important thing about an article is the prose - the wikilinks are a useful extra feature. With lists, the items on the list are the thing... it's not the list of articles itself which is useful, it's teh ability to easily access the articles in question. Hence why anything which is trying to be a list of articles must make sure all those articles exsist. Further, FAC woukldn't allow an article that wasn't sufficiently wikified, as it would fail criterium #2, compling with the standards set out in the manual of style.
    There's also a common thread runnign through the examples that the inclusion criteria must be well-defined... possibly this shoudl be included in the intial part "...that lends itself to list format (see Wikipedia:List), with well-defined inclusion criteria....". Alterntaively, include as a seperate item under point #1 "It is useful, comprehensive, factually accurate, stable, uncontroversial, well-constructed and well-defined", with "well-defined" meaning that the list's inclusion criteria are clear and unambiguous.
    Tompw (talk) 01:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of adding "well-defined" as a separate item, though I would add to its definition that the list's inclusion criteria must be non-arbitrary. I seem to recall lists being rejected in the past for having arbitrary cut-off points - we wouldn't accept a list of US presidents from 1859 - 1986, even if it met all the other criteria. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 17:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

OK... I propose that the following replace the exsisting definition of "Useful" under WP:WIAFL 1a:

  • a) "Useful" means that the list covers a topic that lends itself to list format (see Wikipedia:List). For example:
    • The list brings together a group of existing articles related by a well-defined entry criteria.
    • The list is a timeline of signficant events on a notable topic, the inclusion of which can be objectively sourced.
    • The list contains a finite, complete and well-defined set of items that naturally fit together to form a signficant topic of study, and the set's members are not notable enough to have individual articles.

I also propose to add a explanation of "well-defined", as point 1g (with point 1 ammended to add "well-defined")

  • g) "Well-defined" means that the list's inclusion criteria are clear, unambiguous and non-arbitrary.

As the whole FL process is a policy, this is not something to be voted on; there must be a consensus. All I am doing here is setting out a proposal in light of the above discussion, with the aim of establishing whether or not the consensus amongst editors is to implement the above proposal. (Also, I'll post about this at WP:FC). Tompw (talk) 14:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to make things interesting, I'm having second thoughts and starting to wonder if we really need to completely rewrite this clause and add more rules. The Wikipedia:List guideline already says:
Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources.
Also, (b) Comprehensive implies that the scope is defined. Deciding if the criteria are arbitrary is probably a quality judgement that reviewers are allowed to make. Taking each raised issue in turn:
  1. The Chicago Bears seasons list is now full of blue links so isn't a problem. I think that without the links, that list would have been much less useful. A Wikipedia Featured List needs to be more than a list or table of facts – it does need to help the wiki.
  2. All seven districts in Administrative divisions of Adygea had articles. The list was hierarchical, which is unusual. The top level of the hierarchy was fully blue-linked. The bottom levels (rural villages) were not notable enough. If thought of as a list of seven, it meets the current requirements.
  3. Timelines such as Timeline of peptic ulcer disease and Helicobacter pylori and Narnian timeline. By their nature (lists of events), many of these will not have articles for each entry. Some do, for example: where the event is the discovery or launch of something.
Before rewriting the rules, can we find more examples of quality lists that might currently be excluded? Would the following minor change (articles → items, and an extra sentence) be enough for now:
1 (a) "Useful" means that the list covers a topic that lends itself to list format by bringing together a group of related items that are likely to be of interest to a user researching that topic (see Wikipedia:List). A useful list must be composed of a large majority of links to existing articles (blue links). A timeline is a chronological list of events, which are not required to be articles.
Colin°Talk 16:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I prefer it with the rewrite - there are high quality lists which would be excluded without it. For example, under the minor characters policy, a list such as List of Torchwood minor characters is required not to link to existing articles. (That's just an example - I'm not saying that one in particular is up to FL standard - but I bet one of the ones you find if you search for "list of minor characters" is). --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 11:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree there are examples where we don't want to encourage articles. Not many TV series warrant an encyclopaedia article per episode. I did a search for Minor character lists and was rather underwhelmed. It is next to impossible to determine inclusion criteria that doesn't end up with everyone who had role barely above "man in bar". Should any such list really qualify for being featured as Wikipedia's very best work? Can you find some other lists you think that would otherwise be featurable? Colin°Talk 13:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Finding specific examples is hard when I don't necessarily know the topics. I suspect that not all of the battalions in the List of battalions of the King's Regiment (Liverpool) would merit their own article. Potentially (this isn't such a good example) the List of bus routes in Brooklyn - the places are linked but the routes themselves are not and probably should not be. I'm happy to hunt for more, but I guess my point is that I just don't agree with your statement that "A Wikipedia Featured List needs to be more than a list or table of facts". In my opinion, a good enough "list or table of facts" should indeed be featurable as long as it is appropriately linked, which may or may not mean the individual entries in the list having their own articles. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 15:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, a FL does have to more than a table of list, as it has to be "annotated with additional information, as appropriate" (1f - comprehensive). Tompw (talk) 16:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I was assuming that in using the words "good enough". --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver
OK, fair enough. Tompw (talk) 22:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

So, where do we go from here? --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 17:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point :-) My proposed "well-defined" bit is superfluous because a list has to have clear inclusion criteria per the MoS, and this is already included under criterium #2. I don't think anyone disputes that, so I've withdrawn (struck out) that part of the proposal.
The question is whether or not there is a consensus on the proposed changes to 1a. No-body has come out and said "no, this should not happen". Editors have pointed out various lists that could not FLs under the exsisting criteria, no matter what their quality. I think the general feeling seems to be that these changes would be a good thing. So, I think there's a consensus for the changes to 1a. If on Monday (29th) no-one has objected, them I'll implement the proposed changes. Tompw (talk) 22:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok. Let's give it a try. If we start getting featured bus timetables then it has not worked. But first, can we correct the spelling and grammar errors (my fault) and reintroduce the italics. I've also changed one word to avoid repetition:
  • a) "Useful" means that the list covers a topic that lends itself to list format (see Wikipedia:List). For example:
  • The list brings together a group of existing articles related by well-defined entry criteria.
  • The list is a timeline of important events on a notable topic, the inclusion of which can be objectively sourced.
  • The list contains a finite, complete and well-defined set of items that naturally fit together to form a significant topic of study, and where the set's members are not notable enough to have individual articles.
Colin°Talk 13:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, since we seem to be in agreement I've made the change. Let's see how it goes. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 12:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dates?

I don't know if this has been done before but would dates qualify for featured list status? They certanelty are not articles. If anyone else thinks it is possible than I will start nominating some dates to see how it works. The Placebo Effect

Can you give an examples? Are you thinking of articles like 2006 and 23 February? -- ALoan (Talk) 16:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I was just thinking od dates, but years would work a,so. The Placebo Effect 19:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
You many struggle to find references... -- ALoan (Talk) 20:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discography pages

Would discography pages like The Beatles discography, Green Day discography, etc. be considered lists and therefore be eligible for featured list nomination? – Zntrip 00:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as a discopgraphy is a list of albumns and singles produced by band or artiste, I would say yes, these are lists, and thus potentially Featured Lists. Tompw (talk) 22:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Use images

This subject keeps rearing its head, mostly at nomination pages for lists of television episodes. The parts of the Wikipedia:Fair use guideline that keep getting cited are:

  • #3 The amount of copyrighted work used should be as little as possible. ... Do not use multiple images or media clips if one will serve the purpose adequately.
  • #8 The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose.

That's the guideline. I would argue that these do not allow the use of one image for every episode in a list. Firstly, it is possible to have FLs of TV episodes without using a screenshot per episode (e.g. List of Dad's Army episodes), and so "as little as possible" is less than one per episode. Secondly, using an image per episode means none of them contribute significantly to the list, and I feel they are being included primarily to make the list look pretty - the list works fine without them.

(Further, point #9 states "Fair use images may be used only in the article namespace". This means that Featured Lists with fair use images cannot appear at Wikipedia:Featured content, because that page display the opening part of the list. This is a practical matter, rather than appyling a guideline).

Consequently, I wish to propose that Wikipedia:Featured list criteria #3 be amended to explicitly state that excessive numbers of fair use images are not allowed on Featured Lists.

I have posted about this propsal at Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria, Wikipedia talk:Fair use and Wikipedia talk:Featured content. Tompw (talk) 22:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Wholeheartedly support, just come up with right wording. When people debated (now dead) Wikipedia:Fair use/Fair use images in lists one of the arguments was "but present FL have plenty of FU images!" So let's start the clean up here and set example how to create the free encyclopedia (and not the prety). Renata 23:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
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