Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Bathurst Courthouse

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[edit] Bathurst Courthouse

Original: Bathurst Courthouse on Russell Street, built in 1880

Edit 1 by Antilived: crop and red lines to show the asymetric sizes of the building

Edit 2 by jjron: crop of road, minor crop of sky, blurred numberplates on cars

4. Alternative version with fewer vehicles

Panoramic view of the Bathurst Courthouse on Russell Street, Bathurst, New South Wales. This building is regarded is among the most significant courthouse buildings in regional Australia. This quality panoramic image captures the building nicely.

The building was completed in 1880 in the neo-classical style with an octagonal Renaissance dome. The wings, built as the postal and telegraph offices, were opened in 1877. The entire structure is 81 metres long and 45 metres wide. The west wing is now occupied by the Central Western Music Centre. The east wing is now the Historical Society Museum.

• Self-nominate and support. - jjron 01:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose. - Please blur out the license plates in the image; that just strikes me as sketchy. Other than that, I think it's a great image and as soon as the plates are gone this would change to Support. --Iriseyes 01:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I can't see why that would be necessary. A license number isn't private information, especially when there is no information to tie it to a person. Redquark 01:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak support. Somewhat boring subject in my opinion, but the photograph displays it completely and in high quality. Redquark 01:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose It has too much useless space above and below it. Once cropped only 840 pixels in height is left, which is quite marginal for the resolution requirements. The cars are also very distracting as they stands out even more than the building but I guess there's not much you can do about that. Also it looks slightly asymetrical and unbalanced (the right is slightly bigger than the left). --antilived ^{T | C} 01:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• If you don't like the space you can supply an edit so we can compare, but I think it would probably hurt the composition. I think 840px in height is fine since it has 3300px in width. By eye I'm not seeing the asymmetry. Redquark 01:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Well here you go. I've made a less tight cut and now there's 856 px in height, which still means I shaved off nearly one third of the original height and it is not a very extreme cut. Also I've put it lines to highlight the differences in height between the left and right. --antilived ^{T | C} 02:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, now that I look at it, I wouldn't really mind if the image were cropped. I'm still not seeing any asymmetry though; as far as I can see, your lines prove that the left and right are almost exactly the same except at the sidewalk level. Redquark 03:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• The lines are supposed to show that they are aligned at the roof level, then progressively become different sized and most noticeable in the sidewalk. It's only a few pixels but it is noticeable. Also, try compare the distances between each corrisponding segments on the semi-circle on the structure far left and far right. The far left segment on the far left is smaller than the far right segment on far right and you can tell by perspective and actually measuring it. (sorry for confusing wording, can't really express it in words) --antilived ^{T | C} 05:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Support. I acutally thing the extra space imporves the composition. However, the cars are just too distracting and obstructive. NauticaShades 10:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Version 4. Much better. NauticaShades 06:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I quite like the image, particularly with the crop that Antilived has applied (subtracting the red lines of course), but perhaps with slightly more sky visible. Also, I'm not sure how wide the viewing angle is (hard to tell from the image) but it may look better in rectilinear projection, albeit slightly distorted at the edges. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak oppose ... if it weren't for those cars, I might support. Yes, I know that cars are often parked in front of public buildings, but they simply kill the picture for me, as an architectural photo. --Janke | Talk 17:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. For those that are concerned about the cars, I have this alternative version, not that I really want to make this one of those confusing multiple noms (I waited around for about 2hrs until there were no cars, but the bus up the end spoils it a bit - by the time the bus left, half a dozen cars had parked again. I went back at 8am the next day hoping to get a clear shot, but there were cars parked already, and by 9am I gave up and took the original nom - who's at a courthouse at 8am on a Saturday morning? The photo (or seven stitched originals) is actually taken from out on the fairly busy road in front of another parking bay, and I was dodging cars trying to get it, so sorry about that couple of pixel misalignment Antilived). I think the lighting is a bit better in the original nom. Re Diliff, I'm not quite sure what you mean, but the building is 81m, from where it's taken is probably 90 degrees field of view. --jjron 23:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose. I have to agree with Janke on this one. It seems quite regularly that I get comments on my photos/panoramas that they would prefer a different angle or different time of day/year or something distracting removed from the background. Although these may be legitimate issues, ultimately you can't always wait all day/year to take the perfect photo - particularly for essentially volunteer projects such as this. Even so, sometimes you do have to accept that some photos just don't quite have the edge without all elements being perfect. Architectural photos such as this can be difficult to get through since (in theory) they are very easy to reshoot... If you live in Bathurst! ;-) Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 09:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Have uploaded a new edit to try to address some of the concerns (but looks like I'm wasting my time). Yes, we'll have to wait for someone else with the right equipment to travel to Bathurst who has a few days or weeks to spare there waiting for the right weather and traffic conditions. I guess there's just too much wrong with these photos. --jjron 10:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• You're hardly wasting your time. Edit 2 is superior and should probably replace the original on the article(s) regardless of whether it passes FP. FP is somewhat of a peer review really - even if it doesn't pass muster, you'll still have a bunch of constructive criticism to take on board! Like I said earlier though - some subjects are just more easy than others to get a FP quality image of. Oh, and what I meant earlier was that if the angle of view wasn't too large, a rectilinear perspective (straight lines remaining straight) might look more aesthetically pleasing, but would result in distorted edges on the left and right side of frame if the angle was too large. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• To be honest I think the cars are a valid criticism, and I guess there's a degree of personal taste in how much to crop off the height - I suppose all the 'weak' votes indicate it was worth a nom. Some of the other suggestions I don't necessarily agree with. I won't be reshooting though cos it's 800km from where I live, and not an area I frequent. Perhaps I should just request NASA to do a reshoot if I want to get this through ;-) .

Sorry Diliff, I don't mean to waste your time, but re the rectilinear projection, the verticals are currently straight, do you mean doing this would make the gutter line straight for example, which it is in reality, but when you say it could distort the edges do you mean it would then throw out the verticals on the wings or what? If so, personally I think I'd prefer the bending gutter. --jjron 05:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Rectilinear projection will make all lines straight, verticals, horizontals etc. However if the FOV is too wide it will distort things at the sides quite greatly, so it really depends on your FOV (my guess: about 80 degree?) and the result you want to choose which projection. --antilived ^{T | C | G} 08:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I have tried various other projections and stuff in other panos, but usually I end up going back to the standard. --jjron 07:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose - no offence, but I have literally made a hundred panoramas (eg, [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]) about this quality. It's just not difficult - you take three photos, focussing on the same point each time, download autostitch, and off it goes. There's nothing particularly spiffy about this image - nice, workmanlike, but not "exceptional" or "unique". Stevage 14:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Congratulations on racking up the century, you must be very proud. I think there's more goes into doing a good pano than what you make out - lighting across the range, composition, flawless stitching, etc; but evidently you do them a bit more easily than me. Why don't you go ahead and nominate those you've linked to and see how they fair if you consider them as good or better? And weren't you the one raving about what many considered another 'workmanlike' pano here a couple of weeks ago, despite stitching flaws being pointed out, which you were happy to overlook? Or is that just bias? --jjron 07:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Let's be civil here guys, no personal attacks please. --antilived ^{T | C | G} 09:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• To be fair though, there was a total of ONE stitching flaw in that image (the railing had no faults), not flaws, and as he rightly pointed out, it was extremely minor and only obvious if you really looked for it. Everyone is, as always, entitled to their own opinion about the images - particularly how 'spiffy' it is in their opinion. Sure, he could have expressed it a little nicer but he wasn't saying anything that controversial and it didn't appear that he was suggesting that his panoramas WERE worthy of FP so I'm not sure that the "well why don't you try and see if you can do better!" taunt is appropriate.. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 09:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

My point is just that image stitching is trivially easy these days. Please, search for autostitch, download and try it. It's a hands-free operation. You load your images, and that's it. Provided you don't move the camera much when taking the photos, and provided nothing moves (cars, people, trees, water...), you never get stitching faults. Therefore I don't think "Nice panorama, no stitching faults!" is sufficient reason for an FP at all - it has to be an interesting, attractive, sharp, encyclopaedically valuable image. The image is pretty good, and without the motorbike, bus and banner, it'd be close. I half suspect that these days, "panoramic" photos should be the normal way of getting high resolutino images, not the exception...Stevage 01:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree with you there Steveage. There is the additional step (at least with PTGui, not sure about Autostitch as I don't use it) of ensuring that you select the most appropriate projection and set the central point of the image - usually on the horizon to make vertical lines vertical and in the center of the horizontal plane. I almost always try to create a mosaic/panoramic stitch whenever the subject is static enough. You even have the added benefit of being able to shoot frames individually to crop out distractions such as people and traffic. Do this and you end up with a much higher resolution photo or alternatively you can downsample it to lower resolution but with much higher quality detail - true pixel level detail rather than the soft Bayer algorithm digital camera CCD output that never quite looks sharp at 100% no matter how expensive your camera is. ;-) Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"...it didn't appear that he was suggesting that his panoramas WERE worthy of FP so I'm not sure that the "well why don't you try and see if you can do better!" taunt is appropriate".

That's not what I said - the whole idea of quoting someone is to actually quote them, not change their words to what you want. The clear implication (to me at least) in Stevage's original comment was that this was a pointless nomination because anyone can knock out photos/panos of this standard or better at will, six of which he linked to. And a bit of an odd comment to me given his votes on some other nominations, not just Diliff's. To be honest, there's nothing said above that changes that interpretation.

Now perhaps that is true and this is an absurdly ordinary picture, but if so then why have most people opposing only 'weak' opposed, usually with detailed reasons, while others have supported? Surely such an average photo should merely attract a string of full opposes with five word reasons? And therefore if he feels the panos he links to are of similar standard, surely they could be worth a nom as people may think they do make the grade? Or doesn't that make sense to anyone else? --jjron 07:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. Well, at least I'm not the only one who's getting all worked up when his pictures are unheedingly bashed :-). The picture is nice but the lighting and the unspectacular composition makes me oppose. Maybe (and I'd immediately believe you if you said so) it is not possible to get a better picture. But that's fine. It's just that FPC are the best of WPs work, not the best of a particular subject. --Dschwen 21:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Funny, I actually thought of some of the odd reasons for opposes on some of your photos during this nom as well. Not that it matters, but just for myself to clarify - do you mean you don't like the lighting on either of them or just the second version, i.e., number 4, which I also said I wasn't so happy with the lighting on? --jjron 07:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• That's hard to answer :-). Partly both of them. One version has good lighting where the other one is too shadowy and vice versa. Maybe an overcast day would provide softer lighting exposing the details in all parts of the building. Then again blue skies always look nicer. Sorry, I don't really have any idea how to make a better picture of that subject. --Dschwen 12:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• OK, thanks anyway. Yes, I think I do understand what you mean. The sky is quite beautiful in the first one, but I see what you're saying about the shadows (even though the sun was behind me and therefore shining face on into the building, so not sure how you'd eliminate the shadows, perhaps using HDR (or whatever you want to call it ;) )). In the other version there's sort of better detail in some areas, but the sky is not as nice. --jjron 23:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose per last sentence of Dschwen above. Further, like satellite photos, panoramas have an inherent 'wow' factor, so something extra is required for a given panorama to qualify as a FP, IMO. Pstuart84 22:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Not promoted --KFP (talk | contribs) 11:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)