Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Virtual Boy games

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[edit] List of Virtual Boy games

• On hold: Until this revert war can be resolved. Go ahead and vote to pass or fail for either version while you're waiting though. That way we can have a decision already made as soon as the debate ends. picturey or pictureless.--SeizureDog 12:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sef-nom: Whew -_- Been working hard to try to create articles for all of the games on this list and I finally got the red link count down low enough for submission. I plan on creating stubs for the remaining few unreleased games and expanding some of the game articles. The list is complete, stable, and accurate. Which is rare for a game list. Cancelled games are not in table form as they are not as important and many boxes would have to be left blank from lack of information.--SeizureDog 07:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment There is too much red. I think changing the title bar would be good, but I don't know what that will do to the look of the rest of the table. --liquidGhoul 08:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• The red layout is not something I'll easily want to change. The system is known for its monochrome redness after all. It's kinda the theme, any other colors will feel...off.--SeizureDog 10:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• The shades of red aren't bad, the title bar is just too bright. It looks horrible. --liquidGhoul 10:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry. I tried making the color as soft as possible without without turning it pink. It's a tough process. I understand true red makes for a horrid background but I still want it to look red, and not pink or orange. I'm open to hexadecimal suggestions though.--SeizureDog 11:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• ff7878 ? --liquidGhoul 11:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I originally had it as that, but thought it looked a bit too much like apricot. I'll change it for now though. --SeizureDog 16:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. The lead is too short. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I want to be sure to avoid redundancy, what else do you feel the lead needs to mention?--SeizureDog 17:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Lead has been expanded. If it's still too short I'm going to need suggestions as I don't know what else to add.--SeizureDog 22:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Since the article is not directly about the games in question, you have to provide fair use rationales for all the screenshots. -- grm_wnr Esc 19:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Um. I already did :| It's under the Licensing tag. Ex: Image:VBVirtualBoyWarioLandTitle.png--SeizureDog 21:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oops, sorry, must have missed that. Please disregard my comment. Great list, by the way, I just can't get myself to support outright at the moment since the lead is indeed too short. Maybe some bare facts about the Virtual Boy (introduction and discontinuation date, and the 3D aspect) could be added? Were the game title screens pictured in 2D or 3D? Also, why do the titles that were not released in the U.S. even have English titles to sort them by , i.e. are these translations somehow official? -- grm_wnr Esc 21:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Erm, I'm not sure how to answer as to if it's in 2D or 3D. They're images of how the game looks when played. The true images would be staggered (see Image:Mario's Tennis screenshot.png). As for the cancelled titles, the English titles are either what the Japanese used (they love using English for titles) or a romaji translation. The only exception I see is Strange Animal School. It might have been an offical translation in preperation for US sales or it might just be what it's best known as for English speakers, I'm not sure.--SeizureDog 22:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• That's okay, I was only throwing out ideas about content you could put in the lead. As it is now, I would say the lead is of sufficient length, so that problem has been taken care of. -- grm_wnr Esc 00:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• As an add-on to this, is there a specific reason that so many games were cancelled, and I think the reason for so little number of games would be useful too (even if there is a little repetition. --liquidGhoul 22:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Reason added. Additional info as to why it failed can be found at Virtual Boy --SeizureDog 22:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• And as an add-on to that, I think that the unreleased games do not, in fact, all need their own articles. Why don't you merge all the info from those articles into the unreleased games section of this list? It would give that section a bit more meat, and would take care of all these very very short articles which are in essence permanent stubs. I spot-checked some of them and there seems to be little info besides the infobox. -- grm_wnr Esc 22:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I tried making a page for cancelled games, but it ended up being a big mess. And personally, I hate it when games get merged into a single article. Plus, the games that I have left to create articles for are games that actually do have quite a bit of information on them (as much as a released game) so some of those articles aren't doomed to perma-stub status. I wanted to make stubs for everything before I started expanding though.--SeizureDog 22:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm, okay, as you are an editor who has put some thought into this I am inclined to accept that. Just don't be surprised when these short articles show up on AfD sometimes (not a threat, mind you, since I don't care much, but it happens). Anyway, weak support from me now because the main (lead) problem has been takien care of, but I'm not wild about the long bare list of cancelled games, although I see your point. Still, you might at least consider making several columns of it, it's nearly a screen long. -- grm_wnr Esc 00:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point on making them into columns, done. --SeizureDog 02:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm, that actually helped more than I expected, looks much better now. A final note, what do you think of adding the developer/publisher of the cancelled game into parentheses after the title? I.e. "Signal Tatto (unknown)" / "Virtual Dodgeball (Hect)" / "GoldenEye 007 (Rare/Nintendo)"? -- grm_wnr Esc 08:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't like it.

• 1) It would start to look like clutter
• 2) The "Unknown"s would tacky
• 3) By being right after the title, they would be very staggered and not line up all pretty-like
• 4) The focus should be on the released games. I want to give the cancelled games as little attention as possible --SeizureDog 09:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

(breaking indent) Good reasoning, that's okay then. Switching to full support. -- grm_wnr Esc 14:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Supprt I don't think there is anything else wrong with it. The columns for unreleased games makes it look infinitely better. The intro still looks short, but I cannot think of any more info that is needed. --liquidGhoul 14:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Great work! —Nightstallion (?) 13:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Nice work -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 11:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: There's no critical commentary for the logos and they could possibly be removed as a consequence. See WP:FUC for criteria required. Additionally, sources need to be specified in the summary of the images. Vic Vipr ^T_C 23:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Only 3 4 images did not have the source. And if by critical commentary you mean the fair use rational (as I've stated before) it's been there since the beginning. Scroll down. --SeizureDog 04:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale is not critical commentary. Images need to illustrate or identify relevant points within the text (Example) and not serve a purely decorative purpose. Vic Vipr ^T_C 22:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a terrible example you just showed me. Not only do none of those images have any fair use rationales but that is an article, not a list. A list hardly has the time to bring up "relevant points" within its text. Tt's there to give you extremely basic information and help you choose where to move on to. And what a game looks like is extremely basic information that needs to be known. The pictures serve to help identify the games much in the same manner that List of South Park episodes uses its pictures to help with identification of its episodes. Title screens serve the best purpose for this identification because they should be one of the most recognizable images from the game (even if you've only played a game once, you still probably saw the title screen) and they work better within the table format than boxes would. --SeizureDog 03:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Wouldn't be better if the list was sorted by release date rather than alphabetically? CG 12:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• How would that possibly be more useful? When people are looking for a video game they are going to be looking by name, not date. --SeizureDog 13:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I have reverted this removal of images and template change. The issue has not been thoroughly discussed. I gave clear reasoning for my use of images and there was no rebuttal. No action should be made to change the list unless there is a clear consensus. Four people have stated their support for the nominated version implying that the majority are fine with its use. If this is not the case, it must be openly stated.--SeizureDog 10:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It's wikipedia policy, the article currently violates chapter #8 of WP:FUC and citing other lists as justification for adding images isn't an argument. Vic Vipr ^T_C 11:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose."

• It is both identifying the subject of the article (virtual boy games) and specifically illustrating each section (game) of the article with a relevant image. The images are informative and not pure decoration. --SeizureDog 12:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally I believe the use of opening screens serves to identify the games (as much as a photograph of the covers would, but we are not discussing that). I'd have objected to a random screenshot from the game in action, though. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 16:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

For fair use to apply, the text needs be discussing the images themselves, hence the edits made by Ed_g2s. This is just a list, not commentary on the games. Vic Vipr ^T_C 19:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support; well referenced and image use seems in accordance with Wikipedia policy (each image serves to illustrate the game in question and also in some cases, to illustrate the name in Japanese for those without native Japanese browser support). smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 09:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Read the points in WP:FUC and also on the screenshot template "...for identification and critical commentary on...". The contents of the screenshots are not being discussed. Wikipedia policy tries to keep unfree images to an absolute minimum, which is why we only claim fair use when the images are absolutely necessary to illustrate a specific point in the text. ed g2s • talk 19:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Gah, it's being used for indentification. None of the other lists for fiction (such as List of Oz books or any of the TV episode lists) actually comment what's IN the picture, they are using it to say "hey guys, this is what the book/animation/DVD case to this story looks like". What exactly would you want me to waste time "critically commenting" on? "This is a lovely title screen to Virtual Boy Wario Land. As you can see from Wario being in the picture, he's also going to be in the game. This game stars him you see." I'm losing my civility but this is becoming highly asinine. --SeizureDog 20:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Citing other articles in which our policy is being abused is not a justification. The fact that there is nothing to say about the picture should tell you that it should not be used. ed g2s • talk 02:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: "identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose."

Is it me or do I see an "OR" in that sentence?The pictures DO indentify the subjects.So I don't see what's wrong with them.I recognised one of the games by it's picture and not the name,so clearly they seem to have their purpose..-technosphere

This is my point as well, but Vic and ed g2s seem to be ignoring that point alltogether. Below is taken from Vic's userpage.

Citing the screenshot tag applied by yourself on the images in question; "for identification and critical commentary on...". Have you been able to satisfy the second criteria in that paragraph? Thought not. Vic Vipr ^T_C 21:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

There is an OR in the offical rules though.

The material must contribute significantly to the article (e.g. identify the subject of an article, or specifically illustrate relevant points or sections within the text) and must not serve a purely decorative purpose.

You're reading the tag entirely incorrectly. The use of the "and" in the tag states that screenshots (as in plural; screenshots in general) are used for both purposes. It does not state that "this" screenshot does both. --SeizureDog 20:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Because they are in the minority (4:2) and because I have offered a very logical justification of the images being present, I am going to revert their change once again. If they revert again without: a)additional support on their stance; or b) citation of rules that clearly state my use of images is illegal; I will take the steps in reporting them and having the dispute settled. --SeizureDog 21:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not a democracy, so the minority is irrelevant. The use of the images is not necessarily illegal, but is a violation of our unfree image policy - which requires that they only be used to support critical commentary so as to keep them to a minimum. ed g2s • talk 11:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As per WP:FUC #8 the images contribute significantly to the article in that they clearly identify each of the games in question. The only mention of keeping "unfree images to a minimum" occurs in point 9, where it states that such images must only be used on the article namespace (as opposed to user pages), a criteria which this article meets. The argument for removing the images seems to be that "they look pretty" which, while true, belies their purpose at allowing the reader to quickly and easily identify the game in question, so as to then follow the link for more information about that game. In my opinion, the question should be "Do they help to identify the object in question?" and if the answer is yes, the images should be allowed to stay as per "must not serve a purely decorative purpose". They're not simply there to make the list look pretty. The term "critical commentary" also doesn't appear in any of the points of WP:FUC at all and is only mentioned in the text at the top as part of the introduction. Yay unto the Chicken 06:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I concur. The images can and should stay to help identify the games in question. —Nightstallion (?) 08:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)