Wikipedia:Featured article review/Middle-earth/archive1

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[edit] Middle-earth

Article is no longer a featured article

[edit] Review commentary

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fictional series. Sandy 17:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

article appears to have zero references; history and culture sections are entirely in-universe (see WP:WAF); "Adaptations" section seems to be more relevant to Lord of the Rings article than here. overall. article needs to be much more focused on out-of-universe aspects: ie process of authorship, what tolkien drew from to create it, its legacy on other authors, what commentators have had to say about middle-earth, critical analysis etc, without this it would appear to be non-comprehensive. and too many external links! Zzzzz 16:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the WP:WAF link! I'd never noticed it and I'm damn glad we have it as I've seen other articles that suffer from this. Your analysis of this particular case is on-target. The "in-universe" description, unfortunately, is embedded in the article to a degree that requires large re-structuring. Marskell 17:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You are correct that references are needed. As for precisely how to interpret WP:WAF, you might want to see the discussion on the talk page for that guideline... As for "process of authorship" - the article already covers that quite well, and makes several links to the real-world sources. There are many improvements to be made, but do remember that it was featured 2 years ago near the beginning of the FAC process. I'll try and help out with improving the article. Thanks for pointing out the problems. Carcharoth 09:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Status Diff since nomination – doesn't look like anyone is working on it. [1] Sandy 23:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment the following images fail to meet criteria 4

• Image:Middle-earth.jpg image uploaded by User:CBDunkerson with copyright tag as GNU with a source site that specifies that it may be used for personal or educational purposes. GNU also allows commercial use. The source material is copyrighted (fictional material) and as such the map is a derivative. (stored at wikipedia)
• Image:Arda.png - Derivative work, inappropriate copyright (stored at wikipedia)
• Image:Aman Valinor.jpg - derivative work, tagged for deletion (stored on Commons)
• Image:NumenorEN.jpg - derivative work (stored on Commons)

The other image tag is Fair Use and is stored on Wikipedia. The rationale that its adds to the discussion is disputable as the text of the article doesnt directly refer to the image. the size of the image is such that it cant be used to understand the text. Gnangarra 11:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to address the image concerns by repositioning the images (of maps) into a section about the maps. This commentary (when complete) should justify fair use of the images (which are derivative redrawings based on the original maps). I have mentioned this on the talk page as well, and comments would be appreciated there on whether to have an image at the top of the article. Carcharoth 03:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

These images are acceptable under any reasonable interpretation of Wikipedia's fair use poliices. Image placement is only a stylistic issue. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 17:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair use may be liberal in its application but that can only be applied to copies of original works, where derivatives are used that have breach copyright laws then fair use cant be applied which is the case for some of the images. Also be aware that some are tagged for deletion on Commons. Gnangarra 09:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The current format of the maps are sufficient for fair use, though there is still concern with the actual images. Stating that they are not legal copies then using is an issue. If they are absolute necessary a scanned image from the books expressing copyright and claiming fair use would be preferrable. Gnangarra 09:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FARC commentary

Main FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness (2b) and focus (5). Marskell 06:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I will have time to work on this now over the next few days. How long do I (and others who come along to help) have to "do some work" on the article in an attempt to address the concerns raised above? Carcharoth 22:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The primary goal here is not to remove featured status, but to improve articles. Thus, as long as progress is being made, this FARC will stay open. Pagrashtak 20:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Hopefully someone will make a noise if progress is not as fast as it should be, or changes are not addressing the concerns. I won't have time to add references until the weekend, but will be tidying up the prose before then. Carcharoth 21:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I am now adding references where I can. Carcharoth 13:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I notice refs appeared in the first two sections and then stalled. Carcharoth are you still up for adding some? Too much in-universe/lack of out universe remains a problem. Marskell 09:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
• Remove. Insufficient citations and refs. I saw that Carcharoth asked for more time, but his efforts seem to have stalled. If Carcharoth demonstrates again an eagerness to improve the article I'll remove my "remove"!--Yannismarou 17:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Still eager, but no time for the moment. I'm now thinking that a suitable carrot to motivate work on this article could be regaining featured status, rather than maintaining it. I guess what I am asking is whether an article that survives FARC, or FAR, gets a label on the talk page saying "article has passed its MOT"? If not, then the bit saying "this is a featured article" seems to imply that what people see is what originally went through FAC, which is not the case here. Carcharoth 23:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Regaining status, if you're up for it, can be much more satisfying. You know it's gone through the wringer quite well. This what I did with Fermi Paradox. Of course, regaining has proven difficult. 200+ have lost status and six have been brought back up (three, I think, by WorldTraveller). Marskell 08:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• Remove unless serious work is done. It's a pity, given the number of WPians who must love this topic. I second Markell's call to save it. I've edited the opening thus, ahem ...

WAS: Middle-earth is a term used by the author J. R. R. Tolkien to refer to the geographical setting of many of the tales of his legendarium,....

IS: Middle-earth is the geographical setting of many of the tales of J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium,....

- Tony 02:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that edit. Please see Talk:Middle-earth#Article title - Middle-earth (Tolkien)? for a discussion of the nuances of how to present the term Middle-earth in the opening sentence. Carcharoth 20:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, now it's clear what the meaning is: quite different from before. Tony 02:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There's an "in-universe" angle in the lead, when the Elvish language is referred to almost as though it exists in the real world. Need to audit throughout for that. Tony 02:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The language does exist in the real world. Grammar, vocabulary and all. It's an artificial language, but so is Esperanto. Tolkien was a linguist and the languages existed before the world existed. In fact, one (of many) reason for the creation of this world to begin with was to have a setting to place his languages in. Especially due to the chronology of the creation, the use of the language is not using an in-world perspective. Not to mention that use of specific termini is perfectly ok where it helps illustrate a point, which it certainly does when dealing with the cosmology. --OliverH 18:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that this matters; the issue is that Elvish and the like be clearly sourced within the fiction, rather than referred to in passing as though it existed in the real-world anyway. Tony 02:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. If the best reference to illustrate something is a primary text, use that. If the best reference is Christopher Tolkien or someone else talking about Elvish, then use that. Either way, make clear what is going on. Carcharoth 03:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it matters very much. What you're suggesting is making up contents that is not accurate. How do you suppose to reference something that's actually false? If it's not from within the fiction, then sourcing it within the fiction is plain and simply wrong. It does exist in the real world, and has, longer than the fiction itself. If you want to go over to Esperanto and tell them they're all living in a fantasy world, go ahead. But artificial languages exist, whether you like it or not. --OliverH 07:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

• Remove. The main user working on this, Carcharoth, has indicated less time but also a willingness to continue to work on this even if de-featured. Thus I feel comfortable we've done our due diligence and will move to remove. Citations did improve a touch and some image problems were dealt with, but the in-universe problem has not gone away. I look at the geography and history sections and think "uh-uh." Very much too long and over-detailed, and the distinction between describing the creation a fictional universe and details of that fictional universe itself is totally blurred. Finally, there is some tortured syntax. Good sentence in terms of perspective, bad in terms of syntax: "The world, not including associated celestial bodies, was identified by Tolkien as "Ambar" in several texts, but also identified as "Imbar", the Habitation, in later post-Lord of the Rings texts." Always keeping Tolkien in focus, as is done here, needs to happen throughout, while at the same time the prose quality needs to improve. Marskell 12:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Overlong history section doesn't even begin to describe it. Quite frankly I quailed at the prospect. It would be easier to rewrite from scratch, but I'll do that later. Carcharoth 02:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)