Wikipedia:Featured article review/Global warming

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Contents 1 Global warming 1.1 Possible Restructuring 1.2 Mediation 1.3 Unstable 1.4 FARC Request

[edit] Global warming

Messages left at WikiProject Climate change, WikiProject Environment, WikiProject Meteorology, Natalinasmpf, and Blue Tie.

This article blatantly fails to meet FA criteria 1(d) and 1(e), i.e. neutrality and stability. Since the first week of March 2007, there has been an ongoing POV discussion on the talk page, culminating in an edit war the last few days. During this conflict, NPOV and weasel word tags were inserted and removed. Yesterday, a mediatation was initiated, after which the article soon had to be protected to contain the edit war. This article clearly cannot be labeled as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community under these circumstances. The fact that stability is no longer achieved needs no assertion. And as long as a significant minority (or perhaps even a majority) disagrees that the article is NPOV, we cannot define it to be as such. Nick Mks 17:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

So long as a few of the weaselly words can be removed and some other minor points can be addressed, I think the NPOV can be dealt with fairly easily. It's up to the dissenters though to take the initiative and agree to remove the weasel words (or provide a source other than Wikipedia that reiterates the statements). On stability, I agree the article is not stable, and has not been for quite a while. ~ UBeR 18:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's some todo I think is necessary.

• Shorten the lede (not long enough to warrant 5 paragraphs)
• Terminology is very short, compared to the other sections. It should be expanded or moved, IMO.
• Get sources for every statement
• Shorten further reading (if some of them are references, they don't need to be listed twice)
• Pre-human Global warming and Pre-Industrial Global warming should be further to the top. It doesn't make sense to have the earliest stuff be last
• Mitigation should be expanded, given how important of a topic it is
• Attributed and expected effects should be later on, given that they're in the future
• Re-read and re-write to ensure it flows well

Hurricanehink (talk) 19:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is just fine. The problem is that there is one group of people (William Connolley, Raymond Arritt, Stephen Schultz, 'etc) who are interested in keeping this article factually accurate, well cited, 'etc, and another group of POV pushers who are interested in pushing their anti-global warming POV into this article (Rameses, Britannia, Blue Tie, 'etc). They don't have a leg to stand on, factually, so they complain of POV, because POV is subjective and therefore it's harder to show they are flatly wrong. Raul654 19:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong disagree. The users you mention (William Connolley, Raymond Arritt, Stephen Schultz, 'etc) are the ones who are stubborn about introducing weasel words into the article yet they flatly refuse to provide a citation establishing consensus. These users appear to believe that WP:A doesn't apply to them. --Tjsynkral 23:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong disagree. I completely agree with the above quote by Tjsynkral. --Sm8900 19:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong disagree. I stand with Tjsynkral & Sm8900. The machine512 00:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a whole article of sources available - the trouble isn't that they refuse to provide sources - it is that you refuse to accept them (even if cited on page). Subtle difference. --Kim D. Petersen 09:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The stubborn use of weasel words has been demonstrated (see this discussion as well as this one). William M. Connolley most notably said that he sees "no need for a precise definition of 'climate scientist'". And the idea of a consensus, being built from a presumption that all the anonymous scientists in the world agree since they have not expressed disagreement, remains original research. --Childhood's End 14:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, "a presumption that all the anonymous scientists in the world agree since they have not expressed disagreement" is pretty much the only way anyone establishes consensus isn't it, once those who want to have spoken? --BozMo talk 15:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

In this case, no. There exists no scientist on Earth that can wholly scientifically invalidate climate change predictions - they can only give opinions with regard to their specific fields of knowledge (climatology involves dozens of different fields of research). It could thus be that there are scientific agreement with regard to certain specific aspects of climate evolution, but when it comes to the whole idea of anthropogenic global warming, the idea of a consensus is OR. --Childhood's End 15:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The last sentence pretty much sums up the incredible huztpah of the "anthropogenic global warming is a lie" group. Even sceptical scientists now agree that human activities are resulting in a warming climate, but simply say that cannot ascertain how much. ^[1][2] . The scientists in related fields that do contribute to the article are under almost constant barrage by those who obtain their opinions from information sources shaped by political and/or vested interests. I agree with Raul, Connelly, and others that this article is stable, balanced, and FA-worthy. --Skyemoor 19:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Research yes, but not original research surely? The whole point of the IPCC reports and vast list of signatories for their reports which give huge ranges in forecast and conclusion is that they are a consensus. You have to have a prejudiced view about the IPCC not to accept this: now please listen when I say that there may be all sorts of reasons to doubt the IPCC, but those reasons (valid though they may be) are where we are lacking notable sources, surveys of scientists and where we are in the realms of OR. There is not any kind of serious grouping (e.g. not more than for evolution) who oppose the IPCC conclusions as far as I can see. --BozMo talk 18:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem, BozMo, is the inclusion of what is either original research, a simple POV, or synthesis (counts as OR). If no source is saying it, why should we? If you can't find a reliable source that is saying what you are trying to include in the article, it's inclusion is meritless. It's really a simple idea, and I do not understand why a select few of you wish to gripe with this policy. ~ UBeR 19:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It's also about a misleading characterization of how the IPCC produces its reports. The contributors do not contribute to the whole reports, as the misleading concept of "climate scientists" wishes us to think. Each scientist contributes to a small part of them in his research field and has no scientific idea about the validity of the whole thing. --Childhood's End 20:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I am listening, but synthesis AFAICT is only original research if it is done "in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor". Without NPOV synthesis Wikipedia basically couldn't exist, we do it everywhere. So are you saying that the synthesis of IPCC is being done with a POV by WP editors, or that the IPCC reports themselves summarise with a bias or both? If the former, take me through what the IPCC summaries say. If the latter refuting a synthesis by a credible organisation is problematic and OR: lets find someone credible who has done it and quote them. --BozMo talk 20:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that if you do not have a source outside of Wikipedia for something you are trying to include (for whatever reason), then do not add it! I'm honestly trying to make this as simple and basic as I can so I can illustrate my point. Wikipedia isn't about truth; it's about verifiability. If sources aren't saying, neither should we. ~ UBeR 20:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

And what we have said dozens of times is that we even have quotes of sceptics saying there is a consensus they oppose. As for quoting other references in WP (if that's what you mean), we follow WP:SUMMARY. --Skyemoor 00:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This same old argument, even after I explained it to you? Wikipedia is not a reliable source. (I can bold too, you know.) Here, I'll prove it to you with a quote: "Wikipedia and other wikis sponsored by the Wikimedia Foundation are not regarded as reliable sources." I don't know how I can make myself any clearer. Can anyone who actually understands my logic here help me explain this simple point? I mean, I could explain how the WP:OR policy supports this conclusion, but if this simple idea cannot be grasped, I don't think it prudent to even bother. As for WP:SS, this applies to overly long sections that merit summarizing main points from what might be a more extensive article. It, of course, does not bar references in the article it's being summarized in. It does, however, limit it to sections, not leads. Read over the policy again. ~ UBeR 01:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You avoided acknowledging the point above about skeptics agreeing that there is AGW, just not sure how much. As for referring to other portions of WP, please quote the portion of WP:Summary that states that one cannot refer to references from spin-out articles in the lede. I have asked this same question before with no answer. --Skyemoor 01:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You avoid acknowledging I'm correct. I don't care which skeptics agree there is AGW (could they really be defined as skeptics, as such?), because so long as you aren't citing them, it means nothing to Wikipedia. Wikipedia cares not for your original research, but rather verifiable data. If you're refusing to allow verifiability for what you're writing in Wikipedia, not much can be done. As for my discussion on WP:SS, maybe you're not looking hard enough. Try Talk:Global warming for starters. ~ UBeR 01:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Those skeptics who agree that there is some AGW are on the skeptic list at Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming and I indeed cited 3 of them above (which you avoided acknowledging above). You have again refused to support your claim about the lede being limited to what can be referenced, so we are left without any basis for your claim yet again. --Skyemoor 13:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as stability here is the diff for the last 500 edits, to March 5. 500 edits in three weeks is not all that uncommon for a high profile article like this. Furthermore, if you look at the diff, the content itself has barely changed - it's almost exclusively confined to changing the style of the references. In other words, there is no stability problem here at all. Raul654 19:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

It is possible that Raul is correct about stability. However, if my experience on that page is an indication, the reason it is stable is over-zealous protection by a few editors who will revert and remove contributions by other editors in short order. Hence, their contributions remain stable over time.

I have already suggested a re-structuring of the article on the talk page. Other reviewers here have also suggested restructuring in this FAR. So it might be a reasonable idea. But it is rejected by the current guardians. --Blue Tie 02:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Raul. The article is stable, as the diff shows. The NPOV and weasel tags are spurious. The medcabal case is irrelevant. I disagree with some of Hh:

• The lead can be re-paragraphed, but thats trivia
• Terminology needs to be high up to be useful; it was once a side-box and was better as such, IMHO
• There is no reason to list things in chronological order. Pre-human stuff is of minor interest and so is best low down
• Mitigation is a sub-article
• Attributed and expected is important so needs ot be near the top

William M. Connolley 21:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC) (belated sig - date wrong by about 2h)

Not to get in the middle of high emotions, but a factor in reviewing this article has to be how much of the article is or should be for Global warming as fact or against. People have used Undue weight as an argument, but that would presume that Global warming is believed by most people or scientists, or that that matters more than science. Science is not subject to peoples opinions or emotions, so perhaps this article needs extensive copyediting for neutrality rather than de-featuring. Judgesurreal777 21:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree what you said. Science is not a subject that allows emotions to take its course. They need facts and theories to back up the findings. This is why scientific journals (e.g. Nature) requires extensive scientific community peer review prior to publishing articles. OhanaUnited 01:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have not contributed any of the text in the article but have been around it reverting vandalism etc for a while. I supported the request for a review but the summary at the top of this FAR bears no relationship to the reality of the article. In my opinion the article easily meets the requirements for neutrality and stability (compare it to a random choice from a couple of months ago: it evolves slowly thats all). The problem with the article is that it represents a fair selection (tip of the iceberg) of the spectrum of scientific view and gives due weight to small minority views, whereas a small number of editors have repeatedly tried to get undue weight to these views. The article does not reflect my own views on Global Warming, but it does reflect consensus in the scientific literature as far as I can tell. This review will be useful if it achieves one thing: making other Wikipedians with a scientific background aware that a flagship article is in danger of being seriously undermined by a narrow interest group. The behaviour of the attacking minority has been raised repeatedly at WP:AN/I but they always manage to swamp the complaint with so much additional material nothing much comes of it. --BozMo talk 09:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There is really too much personal attack and defense going on here. It should be about the article and its quality. I view it as a weakness of those declaring the article to be of high quality that they should personally attack the individual editing instead of focusing on the article and the facts. If these are in your favor, there is no need for personal attack.

As far as a "flagship" article.. it is very good, but it is not perfect. It has NPOV problems. It appears that the article is suffering from ownership problems. There is no baby being killed here, but perhaps the main editors of the article feel like they are under personal attack when their article changes. Other editors may suggest changes and these should not be immediately condemned as they are. The whole process on wikipedia is to discuss. It does not happen on this page though. Instead, new editors are insulted. This page is not so wonderful that it cannot be significantly improved. And if it would take the fall of a so-called "flagship" article to bring some civility to the talk page there then I would vote for that in an instant.--Blue Tie 02:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

There is >300 kb of talk page content in just the last three weeks. It does get "discussed", but a large part of that discussion is pointless because a number of people don't approach it in good faith but rather use the talk page merely to advocate for their own preconceived notions, without any concern for seeing the other side. I've followed global warming since way before it was featured, and I don't believe the presense (or absense) of the featured label will have any lasting effect on the amount of conflict it generates. Dragons flight 03:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you and it is sad to think about. --Blue Tie 03:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This artical sucks. It is totally a position artical and should only have facts, not oppinions. Leave the opinions to the consumers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 137.86.167.112 (talk • contribs).

What specifically is opinion in this article? It looks like there is a citation for most sentences, and only two "citation needed" tags. Overall, pretty good for a controversial topic. Gimmetrow 21:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe the article should be featured -- yet. I believe it can be greatly improved in terms of structure (but perhaps not in content). I also believe that it is not exactly neutral. I believe that this is a matter of experts with too much depth in the subject and passion for the subject editing it. I would also add, that I have been falsly accused of being a POV pusher. That is a false charge. --Blue Tie 23:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe a lot of the people complaining on this FAR about this article (specifically its neutrality) have no interest in doing productive work on the article. With their "help" this article would never have become a featured article. So claiming it's not a featured article "yet" is transparently disingenuous. Raul654 16:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with these accusations or their very appearance here, but at least you are open regarding your biases. One of the standards for defining ethical behavior is to ask "What if everyone behaved like this?" With you I would ask: "What if everytime there were disagreements, each side truly believed the other side was not interested in productive work but just disruption?" This is in direct opposition to the standards on wikipedia that say we should assume good faith. That is a standard that you, especially, should hold up high and live by example, yet you do not as you cop to above. How can others be expected to behave to a level of quality that wikipedia leaders do not abide by? Yet you will sit in judgment upon them. I have tried very hard, and am continuing to try to work with serious intent to improve the article, yet I have not been given a moment of consideration. No hard feelings about that, but your accusations would not hold up to scrutiny nor do your attitudes comport well with policy. --Blue Tie 17:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. - Wikipedia:Assume good faith Raul654 18:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Raul654, I strongly suggest you retract your previous statements declaring those who have discussed in this FAR have no intentions in contributing in good faith and productively on global warming. Wikipedia asks you assume good faith. Because you disagree with them gives you no right to avoid this rule, considering you have no evidence to the contrary. ~ UBeR 19:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The evidence is manifold - Tony's off-wiki attack site (Right to Race), the sockpuppeting I uncovered using checkuser (Rameses, Britannia, Persephone), your now-deleted hit-list, and the blatantly biased edits you and others have been making to this article. Contrast that with William et al's infinite patience in putting up the never-ending supply of POV warriors who attack that page, and leave a month later only to be replaced by someone else - yourself included. William et al have gotten this article up to FA status despite the handicap of having to deal with such users. Raul654 19:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Considering you have not been involved in the article or this dispute whatsoever, your judgment is very poor. Considering you have made no real observations of either of latter claims, your faulty logic will be ignored. ~ UBeR 22:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

A small POV section of editors (who come, go, and for the most part are replaced a few months later) have been waging war against this article for years now. It's been made a FA despite their efforts, and should stay that way. The controversy here has no correlation to reality. Mostlyharmless 10:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Raul654 16:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Or perhaps even non-POV editors come and go because the guardians are so strict and even abusive that it discourages people from participating. --Blue Tie 17:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen any evidence of this, unless you mean strict in the sense of enabling the pillars of WP. --Skyemoor 15:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the article has been protected. It is not going anywhere for now. Would editors please be so kind as to state their objections to the current revision. As far as I can tell Hink and William Conelley are the only ones who have stated their objections clearly, but these don't seem to be enough to remove this article from Featured status. Please be civil and cool-headed beyond this point. Thank you. -RunningOnBrains 17:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a poll on the talk page to unprotect the page and revert to a particular old revision, which curretly has a high degree of support. Raul654 18:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

That I can see. Still, I'd like to concentrate on the FAR, as discussion regarding that must occur here. Otherwise it will by default retain its FA status, and I'd rather see one of our project's articles removed than a sub-standard article remain an FA. I have not read the article fully yet, but I'd like to know if the consensus is that it needs reviewing or not. -RunningOnBrains 20:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The article seems to suffer from a severe case of WP:OWN. Any attempts to raise attribution, POV, or synthetic OR concerns get reverted on sight, preventing other editors from being made aware of issues on the article. --Facethefacts 22:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

To Running: Yes per nom and Facethefacts and the rest of the discussion above. ~ UBeR 01:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

To Running: No Support FA Status, per the discussion above. The complaints are from some who have a particular POV that only has tiny minority status among scientists, though there is still much discussion amongst politicians and pundits. Since the article is focused on the science, any political/punditry predilections should be identified on Global warming controversy. The article retains the quality required to continue its FA status. --Skyemoor 15:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Have to agree with Skyemoor on both counts. I haven't written more than a couple of words in the article but am often on the talk pages where these accusations keep being made. I keep asking what the substance of the POV complaint is and just get non-sequitors and abuse back from what seem to be a minority group of people who want to slant the article with fringe views and upset everyone in the process. I find it rather tiring and have complained at AN/I Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive198#Personal_attacksWikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive77#Reigning_in_Uber.27s_trolling but this hasn't stopped e.g. [1] --BozMo talk 15:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

BozMo, I urge you to retract your statements. Once again, you fail to assume good faith. Is the view that statements should be sourced so fringe? Oh, really, BozMo? Is my view that original research should be withheld from articles a fringe view? Oh, really, BozMo? Is my view that attribution should be given to sources a fringe view? Oh, really, BozMo? Admittedly, it might upset those who insert their POV and unsourced claims, because these rules prevent this very thing. But that is not a good enough reason to ignore them. You you should also note the author of the previous complaint was unable to convene any evidence for his unfounded claims. Shame. ~ UBeR 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The views you present are mixed. I am happy to acknowledge that some of your contributions are appropriate and that some of the changes you make are improvements. However, I still find the way you conduct yourself often uncivil, personal and aggressive however good faith you are. And although with good faith I am happy to believe you are convinced that there is a valid POV complaint I still find your replies full of non-sequitors and don't know what the real complaint is. --BozMo talk 15:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I thought we already discussed this. I'm trying to figure out how I can make my message any clear, but it's difficult. I do not see how if a statement isn't sourced it does not follow that it should not be included in Wikipedia. Sequitur. It follows. However, note the current version is fine. ~ UBeR 22:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It is unclear to me how people can claim that this article has the stability a FA requires. In the 30 hours following unprotection, there have been 53 substantial edits to the article, a countless number of them involving (sometimes full) reverts or POV/weasel word allegations. It is also my conviction that if a minority (no matter how small) continues to be of the opinion that this article is not NPOV, their concerns should be taken into account, or at least acknowledged on the article page. Not by allowing them to include whatever they want of course, but ignoring or supressing their opinion just because some of them are alledged trolls (if I can believe the above, I'm not choosing sides here) is just as unacceptable. And certainly if this is done to preserve FA status at all cost. I hate to make the comparison, but look at George W. Bush. This is also a flagship article (as you like to call this one), it's even one of the most edited articles, but due to constant problems is not featured either. I'm afraid this is just something we'll have to live with concerning controversial subjects. Nick Mks 15:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Apart from a couple of page blankings (and there's a semi-prot on now) I don't see any of the changes in the last 30 hours as substantial? The odd word or reference here or there but personally I would have been happy with any of the versions in this time: not that I wouldn't want the odd bit of polish. --BozMo talk 15:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Support FA status I personally have no qualms with the article. It is an ongoing issue, so of course there will be frequent edits to the article. However, it remains balanced and reflects scientific opinion on the subject very well. As other editors have already stated, the complaints about POV stem from very small minority viewpoints, and there is no reason to give significant weight to them. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 16:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Support FA status Concerns about stability don't seem to have enough merit; I've seen real edit wars and this seems more like some minor quabbling over some wording.

I do have a few minor qualms however:

• "Although most studies focus on the period up to 2100, warming and sea level rise are expected to continue for more than a millennium even if no further greenhouse gases are released after this date." This could use a source, it is an important assertion.
• The "Global dimming" section is a stub, either merge it or expand it from the main article.
• Fix the few "citation needed" areas.
• Why does a single scientist with an admittedly minority view get a whole section? ("Pre-industrial global warming") If he is notable enough to mentioned so prominantly, there should be some sort of reference to the effect.

Other than that, I don't see many problems. Of course, I wasn't looking too hard for weasel words, can anyone spot any? -RunningOnBrains 18:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

As for weasel words, I have pointed in an earlier discussion that "climate scientist" is weasel wording and it remains a problem in this article (2 occurences as of now). For example, in the Mitigation subsection, we have "The broad agreement among climate scientists that global temperatures will continue to increase...". To who does this refer exactly? Each is left to guess. Please read these discussions (see this as well as this). This sort of wording is stubbornly used by climate activists roaming this article in order to give a false feeling of authority to claims that cannot be verifiable otherwise. Besides, I'm all willing to support the FA status if this sort of problem can be resolved. --Childhood's End 19:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

To answer one of your points, Brains, Mr. Connolley has reverted any content added to the global dimming section. As to why Pre-Industrial Warming has so much content and very little helpful information, I do no know why it is expanded so much, especially considering his data is disputed. ~ UBeR 22:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to ROB for some helpful comments. Continued warming - its essentially obvious, but the AR4 says it bottom of p17. I've put that in. Global dimming - is nothing but a pointer to the GD article. If there is a better way to link it, I'd be happy to hear it. Pre-ind warming is a fairly short section (I'm afraid I don't understand so much content and very little helpful information). The view is marginal but not obscure... its not big enough to be its own article (yet). In scientific terms, the view is probably as well supported as the solar variation stuff, which gets far more prominence William M. Connolley 22:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Since the removal of the protection, this article has been steeped in POV edit warring by both sides. It is not stable due to these continued efforts to push one side's extremist view or the other's. There is no middle ground, apparently. Recommend de-featuring due to lack of stability and, apparent, POV problems. Kyaa the Catlord 04:33, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, since unprotection we have done fairly well. While there still is quibbling about some details, very many of the edits are constuctive (if small).--Stephan Schulz 08:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed: it has been rather peaceful and constructive for a bit/--BozMo talk 14:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

There is not even a question that this page has a completely warped and biased point of view about Global Warming. The graph to the upper right of the page is labeled "Global mean surface temperatures from 1850 to 2006" and shows a huge increase over the last 20 years. However the index is labeled "Temperature Anomaly" with a spread of -.6 to +.6 C. Which is it? To a high school student it looks like global temperatures are increasing wildly which is I'm sure the point of view that the hysterics would like to convey. Either show a graph with actual temperatures for that time period or label it correctly to negate the clear slant in POV that there has been some huge increase in temperatures. Why am I the only person to point this out? I'm not even a Climatologist and I can see this without cracking a book? Connelley edits this page to correct grammar but yet ignores this type of gross misrepresentation and you wonder why people question the wisdom of being locked out of correcting this page.

The above critique of the article was left by Showman, deleted by Raul and then returned to the page by Showman. I believe that it is a fair critique of a graph in the article, one that I had also wondered about, and should not be deleted. However, I have moved it from the top of the section nearer to the bottom where it should have appeared originally. --Blue Tie 20:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see a POV problem. It in no way pushes a point, and all axes are clearly labeled. If someone is too lazy to even read what is represented on the graph, of course they are not going to get an accurate idea of what the graph is portraying, but how can we guard against that?? Why is it our responsibility if the person doesn't actually read anything?-RunningOnBrains 23:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

That is because I added anomaly to the description after he pointed it out. ~ UBeR 23:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the scale of the graph was also an issue somehow. Perhaps the idea being that a few degrees is not a big deal? I think that with a long-enough time period displayed, the difference from a mean is the better way to go. But perhaps a graph that shows average temperatures and not difs from mean would be interesting too. --Blue Tie 14:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The actuals are not known as well as the anomalies. But since all it involves is shifting the whole graph up or down by a constant, or rather adding a constant to the labels on the y-axis, what difference would it make? If we're down to this level of trivia, the articles FA status is secure William M. Connolley 14:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not think that the chart is a problem, an appropriately labeled and discussed, it is fine. ZBut I think the comment creates an interesting sort of problem. It would seem, based upon what I read, that the person writing there wants to see what they would call the "real" temperature. Maybe degrees C above zero. I think what he or she is getting at is the relative difference of temperature. Expand the scale and the numbers look smaller. But then, the only absolute temperature scale I can think of is Kelvin and that would too substantially minimize the graph. However, recognizing that this is the line of thinking that some folks may have when they see such a graph, somehow it would be a good thing to include words or discussion about the "how" of measuring the warming trend. I do not exactly know how to do this efficiently but I think somehow, some folks will think "Oh, only 2 degrees? When the "average" is maybe 25, thats not so bad." The article should help (or should direct to an article that helps) improve this understanding. I am also thinking of tipping points. In superconductors, bathed in LN or LH, you can get a localized hot spot that will raise the local resistance. This is unstable and can spread through the whole mass, sometimes with interesting results. But the localized hot spot might only be a few degrees different from the rest. I see it as analogous. Anyway, I do not think this added education of the casual reader is necessary for it to be FA, but I think there can be other improvements.--Blue Tie 15:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Restructuring

In addition to issues with regard to POV on this page, one of the criticisms of wikipedia articles is that they are created and edited "piecemeal" and as a result they lose a sense of consistency and cohesiveness. In addition, the overall structure is sometimes a bit hodge-podge. I think this article suffers less than most but I also think that the POV in the authors caused structure issues and the whole article could be improved by re-organizing the current content and then filling in holes or (in a few cases) deleting extraneous material or moving it to a better page. I have noticed in other articles that go through a restructuring process that starts with an outline, that some huge holes emerge that were previously overlooked.

I am currently working on a re-organization along the lines of:

• Introduction (Summary)
• What Global Warming is (and how it comes about)
  • Factors that may produce Global Warming (The science of how it works)
    • Greenhouse gases
    • Solar Radiation
    • etc?
  • Factors that may mitigate Global Warming (The science of how it is reduced)
    • Aerosols
    • Volcanism & Disasters
    • Clouds and Albedo
    • etc?
• How Global Warming is Studied (and the history of its studies)
  • Historical Global Temperature Studies
  • The (alleged) role of civilization on Global Temperature Variation
  • Projections of Global Temperatures
• Possible effects of higher temperatures on other Climate and Environment factors
• Debates over Global Warming, forecasts and actions
  • An explanation of the difficulty in developing and interpreting evidence
  • Debates over the existance of the phenomenon
  • Debates over the role of man in the phenomenon
  • Debates over climate forecasts
  • Debates over efforts to mitigate anticipated warming

Where there are separate articles that cover these sections, they should be summarized reasonably and linked. The introduction should summarize these sections and should be written both first and then scrapped and re-written over again after everything is consolidated. This would produce a better article that would not face as much resistance if the old article were not FA. --Blue Tie 20:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The article excellent as is. There is no reason to do a rewrite. And your rewrite is a POV whitewash of massive proportions. Case and point - where does your rewrite mention a no-so-tiny detail like how much temperatures have gone up as a result of global warming? The 16th paragraph. Raul654 20:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not consider it a re-write. I consider it a restructuring. I used the outline described above. I have not changed any wording from the version that I brought over from the article page. I just changed the order of things along the lines of the outline above because the current article is sometimes a bit convoluted and jumps around a bit. I created the outline without any particular agenda in mind except to present the subject in a logical order. I would expect all aspects of the various elements, including temperature increases to be described in the lead (or lede as some say it), which I have not written because I have not finished anything yet. First restructuring. Then wordsmithing. I am not finished restructuring.

I am trying to improve the article. I think it needs improvement enough that it should not presently be FA. I know you disagree -- even to the point of removing valid but negative comments from this page -- but in my opinion the current article still needs more work. --Blue Tie 10:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

While I agree the specifics of global warming should be in the lede, I fail to see any POV in that format. However, I believe that a re-write is exactly what this article doesn't need; it needs to reach a stable solution, and there is little wrong with the current version. -RunningOnBrains 02:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I hope you recognize that I am not really calling for a re-write. I was suggesting that, after the bit here and piece here editing of the article a comprehensive re-structuring, to follow a logical presentation of the subject matter should be done. THEN, if it becomes clear that some parts need to be smoothed or that some information is missing would writing take place. I believe that the restructuring is appropriate prior to FA. I think the article is not quite as well rounded as it should be if you look at it in the outline I describe above. Regardless of how that outline gets structured in terms of order, there are bits that seem to be missing. --Blue Tie 10:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comments. External links need pruning per WP:EL, WP:NOT. See also is a wreck; pls refer to WP:GTL; to the extent possible, important articles should be linked into the text in order to minimize See also. Further reading is all over the place as well, not alphabetical, with no particular order or formatting style. (In other words, all of these aspects combined show that some POV is probably in play here, with many different editors wantiing to get their two cents in.) Publishers (author and pub date where available) aren't mentioned on all sources, examples — Climate Change 2001: Working Group II: Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability. Retrieved on March 14, 2007. and Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis. Retrieved on December 19, 2005. Last access dates as well, example — ^ Climate Change 2001: Working Group I: The Scientific Basis, Chapter 12. Ref cleanup is needed after the article rewrite is completed. See WP:LAYOUT, see also templates go at the top of sections, not bottom. Of course cite needed tags need to be dealt with, as well as POV issues. This is out of place in the lead, which should summarize the article: (See: List of Kyoto Protocol signatories.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well, SandyGeorgia, the further reading actually was ordered alphabetically. One or two of them had the authors first name in front of their last name, perhaps making appear as if they were not alphabetized. Only one was not in the correct order, and it was the most recent one added. I fixed those issues. I try to work on some of the others issues you pointed out. Should any of the links that appear in the article be removed from the "See also" section? ~ UBeR 04:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Yes; articles already linked in the article need not be included in See also. Yes; journal is publisher. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Purged the see also of all duplicate links. Deleted the see also to Kyoto signatories. Further reading was cleaned-up quite a bit, but still requires more work. Will try to get all missing info from References added, to the extent possible, later. Cheers, ~ UBeR 23:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Also, most of the references are to scientific journals. In my experience, it is very unusual to give the publisher of these. Of the 96 journal articles in my private BibTeX file, exactly one has a publisher (and yes, this file is used to generate references for scientific publications). --Stephan Schulz 08:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Citing the journal without a publisher is fine - I mean, {{cite journal}} will not accept a publisher parameter. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 08:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Because the journal is the publisher. :-) ~ UBeR 08:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• Exactly. If the reference is missing the journal parameter, though, then that's a different story... Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 08:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

An anon added what I think is nothing but noise here. If you want to re-insert it... I wish you wouldn't William M. Connolley 18:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose FA ststus This article fails the comprehensive criterion in as much as its omission of information that is vital to the global warming debate.

1. For starters, the article treats the issue as purely scientific. There is no information on the part played by the media is the portrayal of global warming (for example, how the media may or may not have exaggerated the issue)
2. Secondly, it fails to summarize the argument surrounding the Kyoto protocol. Why have some countries failed to ratify it?
3. This is obviously a pro-global warming article. Any opposing opinion is not adequately addressed, but simply linked to at the bottom of the article. That is unacceptable. We need a section devoted to this. As it currently stands, I'm surprised that this article passed FAC at all. Orane (talk • cont.) 17:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The subject matter is scientific. Other side aspects have their own articles, such as Global warming controversy. Kyoto Protocol has its own article as well. As this article is based on the scientific evidence, that which is contrary to the prevailing view is in a tiny minority. --Skyemoor 09:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Just want to let everyone know, this article is currently the subject of a mediation case. You can view it at the following page. Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-25 Global warming. I will also place this information on this review's talk page. thanks. --Sm8900 00:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unstable

The article is apparently unstable without protection. Protected twice in two weeks because of so many edits and reverts. FA Articles should be better constructed so as not to result in such disputes.--Blue Tie 23:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is largely stable; the main ideas, structure, and text has remained essentially the same for weeks or months. The text has been superficially cleaned a bit, and there were some edits before it was protected the second time which will take some further review, but for the most part the article is fairly constant. In fact, in a previous section you yourself said it was stable, and thought this stability was (in a sense) a problem with the article:[2] . It would seem the actual problem you're driving at is that edits by a handful of editors are not being accepted by most of the editors of the article. This does not seem to speak to the article's instability, it speaks to its stability in the face of controversy. --TeaDrinker 00:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The edit warring and OWN issues on that article really need to be killed before it can even be considered a GA. I continue to recommend removal of FA status. Kyaa the Catlord 04:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you missed my point. If there is a chance of a controversial article being featured, the Global warming article is it. Global warming fits FA criteria as well as an article on a poltically controversial topic can. It accurately presents the science, has established scientists edit the article, and retains an accurate view of the science in the face of political pressure. I certainly support restention of FA status. --TeaDrinker 06:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to Blue Tie, hence the single colon. GW fails criteria 1(b) in that it currently minimizes or simply dismisses large sections of GW, the political, social and economic aspects of the phenomena. Until it overcomes this and the editors who stubbornly stand in the way of anyone seeking to expand the coverage of such aspects in the name of "science", it should not be a FA. It also has historically had problems with 1(e), it is a hotbed of edit warring. Kyaa the Catlord 06:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

GW is inherently a scientific topic. Other topics are generated as a result of its attention, such as Global warming controversy, Effects of global warming, and so forth, though these have their own article niches and should not pollute the explanation of the science. Other FA articles receive high levels of attention and editting, even to the point of protection, though they remain FA as well. --Skyemoor 09:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Other FAs do not undergo tens of edits containing the comment rv without being followed by vandalism in two weeks. Nick Mks 10:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Near the end of the last protection, an editor explicitly expression the intent to continue inserting what most editors thought was pov pushing, even in the knowledge that it would be reverted. Is that vandalism? It is not simple vandalism er WP:VAND, although I would call it disruptive. It warrants a revert, but calling it vandalism may be inappropriate according to a strict definition, and in any event, would only would serve to inflame. I don't think is it reasonable that reverts of edits made in questionable faith, even if not marked vandalism, should be taken as evidence of instability. --TeaDrinker 15:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my remark was meant to be funny, but obviously it made my sentence too complicated to understand. I meant to say that many rvs were made to this article in terms of edit warring and content disputes, while normal FAs only undergo rvs as a result of vandalism. Nick Mks 16:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

On a second read, it seems to me that you did understand my intentions, but disagree. However, if you do not consider a surge of (pure) vandalism-unrelated, dispute inspired reverts a sign of unstability, then what is? Nick Mks 16:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is only unstable because some editors constantly attempt to push their POV into the article (in fact, these are in part the same editors who wish to demote the article from FA status). I do not mean to comment on the contributors rather than the contributions, but it is the most rational way to explain the stability issues, in this case. Before this edit war started, the article was much more stable. Besides, the nature of many of the edits are without a doubt disruptive, as TeaDrinker already suggested. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 17:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

So what? WP:FA says [s]table means that the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day; vandalism reversions and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply. (emphasis mine). It does not provide an exception in the case that the majority thinks that the edit war is caused by a minority of POV-pushers. That leaves two options:

• either have that minority blocked as vandals or (since they are a minority that should be easy) by having them violate WP:3RR, or;
• acknowledge that the above option would be POV-pushing from the other side and admit that, whoever is right, this article in its current state is unfit to be termed stable and neutral. Nick Mks 17:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and concerning the people who are trying to demote the article being the edit warrers, I'm the nominator, I have made exactly 0 edits to the article and 3 to its talk page (all pertaining to the FAR). Nick Mks 17:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There is not a doubt in my mind that the article is neutral, and I would hesitate to call the edit war "ongoing," as it is a rather recent phenomenon. Either way, I do not agree with such strict interpretation of the stability criterion; the article's virtues easily outweigh that one single vice. I suppose then, if you truly believe that it is unstable, that I must invoke WP:IAR, because the article is an excellent example of what a Wikipedia article should strive to become, despite the edit wars. Otherwise, we are straying too far from the main purpose of the featured article program, which is to mark Wikipedia's best articles for all to see. The stability criterion is there to ensure that articles which constantly change and could soon fail the other criteria are not marked as featured. This article is not at risk of failing the other criteria, though, as it has remained in pristine condition, and has actually changed little as a result of the edit wars. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 06:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"as it is a rather recent phenomenon". Recent you say? I encourage you to look again at the full history of discussions on this article. Nothing is recent about the disputes, edit wars and lockdown of this page. I must emphasize that there would only be no dispute if nothing was seen as lacking with this article. But, complaints on this have been brought up by literally hundreds of comtributors, members and admins, in the past and very little has been resolved by the act of compromise. WP:OWN is clearly a very major issue here and the idea of an evolving and open article simply does not exist. Wikipedia is still a very young system and in my opinion this is one of its greatest faults. The machine512 11:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I actually did look at the full history, and while there have been POV edits for ages, the edit wars have not been as escalated as they are right now. The fact remains that the only people who destabilize the article are skeptics who wish to do so. In my opinion, many of these edits are akin to vandalism, or at least should be treated as such for the purpose of the stability criterion. WP:OWN is definitely not a major issue here; if you look at those who revert the changes, a good deal of them are not major contributors to the article (I have reverted several POV edits, for instance, but I have not actually written anything in the article). Also, I find it odd that you call for both a constantly evolving article and a stable one. The two do not go hand in hand, unfortunately. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 06:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I must disagree. An article that is almost constantly protected to contain edit wars and has page long hostile discussions on its talk page is not something I want a visitor to find labeled as one of Wikipedia's best... Nick Mks 10:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have been involved in a number of astronomical FA articles, including Binary Star, which are subjects near and dear to my heart, though they do not have the level of attention and political controversy that this subject attracts (even Brown Dwarf :-). Yes, other FA articles are highly editted, even with some edit warring and protection, such as Barack Obama for example. So that in itself is not a reason to remove it from FA status. --Skyemoor 11:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, well, I don't know what to say to this. I've already given the example of George W. Bush, which is also an extremely high profile article but is not featured either due to edit wars. Maybe the comparison with real political topics such as those is not appropriate though. I guess it's more natural for a political topic to be so actively debated than (what should be) a purely scientific one. Nick Mks 13:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

What I am struggling with, suppose FA stsus is not retained. How do we improve te article? We can't change reality to reflect the views of the GW skeptics (in fact, if we did, we would rightfully get a bunch more critics). I feel like you're arguing that some articles can not be FA in principle, no matter how well written, well cited, etc.. I don't edit the Bush article, and don't really know what the issues are there, but it seems downright bizzare that we would deny FA status in principle because it is politically contentious. --TeaDrinker 18:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Like TeaDrinker said, there are other controversial featured articles. I still hold to my belief that this article's virtues outweigh its stability issues. It does seem a little unreasonable to exclude certain articles from FA status simply because they are controversial. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 06:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Support FA status I think that this is an excellent, well written article. Apart from a few citation issues there are no real problems. The stability issue raised above is not a problem. The article's content has remained stable despite attempts to bring in the view of the skeptics that are not part of the scientific literature.

Stability of content won't become an issue in the future, precisely because there is a strong scientific consensus about the issues discussed in the article and the article focusses on the science of global warming. This means that the critics can only "back up" their flawed arguments by referring to unreliable sources (right wing blogs, unpublished papers, flawed preprints rejected by journals etc.).

This is completely different from other politically charged subjects that are not scientific in nature. In such cases there are often two or more equally valid perspectives and you can find reliable sources where all these points of views can be backed up. This can lead to edit wars that cannot be settled easily. The case of this article can perhaps best be compared to the article on evolution. There are probably creationists who e.g. want to write that "evolution is just a theory" and make many such edits every day that are then reverted within 20 seconds. This in itself is not a stability issue. Count Iblis 01:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as the scientific/political difference is concerned, that is exactly what I mean. Therefore, edit wars and POV allegations are slightly more acceptable and expectable in a political article, and should be totally out of the question here. Lately, I do not at all agree that this is the case. I'm not gonna sum up my arguments here again, but I'll reformulate them soon enough. Nick Mks 08:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FARC Request

Today, April 9, 2007, at 17:49 UTC to be exact, this FAR listing will have been up for two weeks. I hereby quote from WP:FAR:

The nomination should last two weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. (...) If the consensus is that the deficiencies have been addressed, the review is closed; if not, the article is placed on the FARC list.

As far as the first sentence is concerned, I am convinced that it is not useful (in fact, totally useless) to continue the process. As a matter of fact, the topics/arguments/edits in this FARC, the article's talk page and the article itself, have barely changed over the course of this fortnight. We are even back to sqaure one with a new protection. In my opinion, this could go on until the next ice age without yielding anything productive, let alone consensus. This brings us to the second sentence above. Unless somebody is convinced that we have a consensus in the discussion above that this article is now NPOV and stable, I must suggest that we move on to the next logical step in the process, i.e. FARC.

As the nominator, I shall also give my personal view, which will be my declaration if and when FARC is initiated:

Remove FA status: while I sympathize with the arguments of the article's writers defenders of FA status, I must disagree with them. Since the problems with this article only began recently, it can be hoped that they will end someday soon. Currently however, with nearly one thousand edits to the article talk page since the FAR initiation, most of them under headers containing words as POV or neutrality, and hundreds of edits in the article (tens of them in edit warring - I believe some people's "r" and "v" keyboard buttons must have worn out), in my interpretation this article fails FA criteria 1(d) and 1(e) more than ever. As a matter of fact, this article is currently in all the following categories at the same time: Protected, Articles with unsourced statements since April 2007, All articles with unsourced statements, Articles with unsourced statements since February 2007, Articles with unsourced statements since March 2007 and Wikipedia articles needing factual verification. The culmination of all this misery is the most recent protection and the resulting subdiscussion. On a side note, I'm currently struggling to get the article Moon featured. There it comes down to discussions on what kind of dash should be used in what situation per WP:DASH. If being featured requires having the right number of pixels in your dash (which I do not dispute), then I consider the current problems with this one of another level. Nick Mks 09:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I point out again that I labeled the above as my personal view, which will be my declaration if and when FARC is initiated. It was therefore not my intention to initiate FARC right away (I am unaware who is authorized to do so), and regret that it has been interpreted as such. Nick Mks 16:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It is worth pointing out that characterising the above commentators as "the article's authors" looks rather wide of the mark.--BozMo talk 16:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I did so (without thinking about it) because I assumed the correlation to be high. I have never looked up any names, and I presumed that mainly the people who worked hard to get the article featured would defend it. I changed my wording to avoid any confusion. My apologies if this has caused any discomfort. Nick Mks 16:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

No problem. The second biggest contributer in terms of edits seems to be UBeR who is unhappy with the status quo. By contrast as a defender, although I've have been on talk pages a bit I didn't really write any of the current text. --BozMo talk 17:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Support Continued FA Status: The article is at a fairly high level of refinement, and WP is fortunate to have scientists in the field participating in the updating of new findings in the field. The source of much of the edit warring comes primarily from those who exhort 3RR edit warring, engage in wikilawyering, want to change the article for completely political reasons, and have been so disruptive that Jimbo "would be happy for them to be shown the door". Indeed, the only reason the article remains an FA is because of the persistence by neutral WP editors to maintain NPOV in spite of the efforts of those who would prefer to make ideological points instead. --Skyemoor 12:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe it is refined. I believe to some extent it is disjointed and could be better written regardless of the POV or NPOV problems. But also, the article's name and content are being reconsidered in a very basic way. It is not stable. I particularly object to your uncharitable characterization of the editors who bring objections. Some of the people you brought up are not even editing on that page. Its a strawman. --Blue Tie 14:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Each of the persons discussed in the links I provided above have been active in editing the GW page. Simply because their comments also bleed over onto user talk pages and the like is no reason to pretend they are not involved in editing GW. And notice I said "much of the edit warring comes primarily from" which is in no way an indictment of everyone on the side who wants to politicize the GW page. --Skyemoor 14:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If Skyemoor could ever make a non-fallacious argument, he might be listened to. ~ UBeR 17:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, you have combined trolling and a personal attack in one short sentence. --Skyemoor 17:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Remove FA status The naive belief that global warming science can or should be seen independently of politics is what drives some good faithed people to require that this article be edited or discussed independently of politics. It is easily forgotten that global warming science mostly emanates from the United Nations and that every scientist in the world, just like every other human being, is subject to his personal interests' imperatives which can only be served by politics. While unfortunate, the political debate surrounding the global warming issue cannot be parted from the scientific debate since the science herein is primarily used to push public policies rather than for science itself. Both debates are intertwined and inherent to each other. This article is thus inherently political and should not retain FA status until the science has escaped the political sphere (and the UN's grasp foremost). --Childhood's End 14:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you all please stop entering Keep/Remove opinions in the review phase? Remove/Keep "votes" are entered once the article moves to FARC; the two weeks has never been hard and fast, so please relax. It will get there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

So you are assuming this article will move to FARC? Why the assumption? --BozMo talk 16:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it could be read two ways. I perceived it as meaning that remove/keep votes are only entered at FARCs. That is, that's the only place such voting occurs, not necessarily meaning this article would be nominated to that. ~ UBeR 17:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

My question was a genuine question, not a protest. I don't think a "consensus" is likely here (and FARC seems the right place for settling this to me personal), so I thought perhaps it was WP:SNOW ... perhaps I misread the "there" in "it will get there". --BozMo talk 17:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

A note on the process: when there is no clear consensus to retain status without FARC, Marskell usually moves articles to FARC, where editors may opine "Keep" or "Remove". But yes, my note was only to please refrain from entering "votes" at the review stage, which is for "review". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)