Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Yom Kippur War
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[edit] Yom Kippur War
I'm actually pretty proud of this one. I spent the last two weeks fixing it up, adding references and quotations, 'etc. See the difference for yourself -- before and after. It's detailed, and one of the few articles on the Arab-Israeli conflict that doesn't have the obligatory {{POV}} tag. →Raul654 07:31, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: I think this article needs a separate references section that is easily navigation, and this should probably be done with a numbered notes and references system. Otherwise, this looks a very good article. If the referencing system is addressed, I'll have a full read and vote on this FAC. Thanks. Harro5 08:03, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and added a references section. →Raul654 08:16, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Support. A NPOV account of a major war in the Arab world, and a very well complied reference for those interested. Well done all contributors. Thanks to Raul for the references section as requested. Harro5 08:41, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and added a references section. →Raul654 08:16, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Support, however, I'd like to see the references formatted according to the guidelines (specifically, the websites in the "References" section should include retrieval dates and more precise source information; web pages are inherently dynamic. Nice work. Phils 20:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Suport. It is now about as comprehensive as an overview article is going to get. - SimonP 13:27, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
Object it has very little on the Egyptian motivation to attack Israel and nothing on why the Syrians decided to join them. As I understand it there were important domestic concerns in Egypt that contributed to the war. In the months prior, for instance, there were major student protests against the government. - SimonP 22:27, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)- The primary motivation for the war (which the article says both in the introduction and again in the background section) was unquestionably the recovery of the territory lost during the Six day war. Anyone who says otherwise is flatly wrong. For Sadat in Egypt, there has been speculation that, even before the war was fought, he wanted to jump-start the peace process (because, the speculation goes, he realized that Egypt could not maintain, socially or economically, a hostile position towards Israel indefinitely). As far as the motivations in their own words --- since neither Sadat nor Assad ever published memoirs, their "true" motivations can only be speculated at. →Raul654 22:43, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Actually Sadat's autobiography is widely available in English and it would present a valuable, if biased, extra opinion. - SimonP 22:45, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Also I think you are failing to take alternate views seriously enough. Here's a quote from William L. Cleveland's A History of the Modern Middle East, which is a pretty standard introduction to the subject: Sadat's presidency had achieved little after two years. The measure of despair that affected Egypt generally was reflected in 1972 and early 1973 in outbreaks of student demonstrations that stood as criticisms of the government's apparent lack of resolve. If Egypt could show that Israeli military might was not as all-powerful as assumed, then perhaps the United States could be persuaded to enter the negotiating process and work to soften Israel's hard-line position. In pursuit of this aim, Sadat, with Syria as an ally, undertook the war as an instrument of diplomacy. (pg. 365) - SimonP 22:55, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- I've added a paragraph to the background about the unrest within the nation. Also, as to Sadat's biography - based on the reivews, it seems to only cover the period on his rise to power and his motivations for making peace with israel. It doesn't mention the war at all. Also, in the bibliography for my book -- "The Arab side of the war is poorly documented. A notable exception is the war diary of the Egyptian cheif of staff, Gen Saad el Shazly. Unfortunately, books by other Egyptian generals published in english are heavily laden with fantasy, but interviews granted by General Gamasy and Egyptian intelligence officers to the Israeli press offer valuable information... There is nothing authoratiative at all from the Syrian side but light is shed on military aspects by outside sources. These includes an official Iraqi report on the Syrian front - one of the most straightforward arab accounts of the war." →Raul654 23:08, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- You're changes look good, but I want to make sure this is comprehensive before I support it. I'm going to the library tomorrow and will try to see if there is anything more on this issue. I'll double check Sadat's autobiography and I believe Moshe Maoz's Syria and Israel: From War to Peacemaking might be the best source to find something on Syria. Cleveland gets the student protest information from Ahmed Abdallah's The Student Movement and National Politics in Egypt, unfortunately this book is available in neither of the university libraries I have access to. - SimonP 00:05, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I've added a paragraph to the background about the unrest within the nation. Also, as to Sadat's biography - based on the reivews, it seems to only cover the period on his rise to power and his motivations for making peace with israel. It doesn't mention the war at all. Also, in the bibliography for my book -- "The Arab side of the war is poorly documented. A notable exception is the war diary of the Egyptian cheif of staff, Gen Saad el Shazly. Unfortunately, books by other Egyptian generals published in english are heavily laden with fantasy, but interviews granted by General Gamasy and Egyptian intelligence officers to the Israeli press offer valuable information... There is nothing authoratiative at all from the Syrian side but light is shed on military aspects by outside sources. These includes an official Iraqi report on the Syrian front - one of the most straightforward arab accounts of the war." →Raul654 23:08, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Also I think you are failing to take alternate views seriously enough. Here's a quote from William L. Cleveland's A History of the Modern Middle East, which is a pretty standard introduction to the subject: Sadat's presidency had achieved little after two years. The measure of despair that affected Egypt generally was reflected in 1972 and early 1973 in outbreaks of student demonstrations that stood as criticisms of the government's apparent lack of resolve. If Egypt could show that Israeli military might was not as all-powerful as assumed, then perhaps the United States could be persuaded to enter the negotiating process and work to soften Israel's hard-line position. In pursuit of this aim, Sadat, with Syria as an ally, undertook the war as an instrument of diplomacy. (pg. 365) - SimonP 22:55, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Actually Sadat's autobiography is widely available in English and it would present a valuable, if biased, extra opinion. - SimonP 22:45, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- The primary motivation for the war (which the article says both in the introduction and again in the background section) was unquestionably the recovery of the territory lost during the Six day war. Anyone who says otherwise is flatly wrong. For Sadat in Egypt, there has been speculation that, even before the war was fought, he wanted to jump-start the peace process (because, the speculation goes, he realized that Egypt could not maintain, socially or economically, a hostile position towards Israel indefinitely). As far as the motivations in their own words --- since neither Sadat nor Assad ever published memoirs, their "true" motivations can only be speculated at. →Raul654 22:43, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: For an article of a war that doesn't date back very far it has an astonishing lack of pictures of the war itself - aren't there any, or is this a matter of copyright issues that prohibit it to include some? Themanwithoutapast 22:37, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- You said it yourself -- there aren't any non-copyrighted pictures available. →Raul654 22:43, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, you can even find some non-copyrighted material on wikipedia related to the Yom Kippur War: pic, and in general the fair use-doctrine is quite generous, so with the right justification it's possible to include photos of e.g. a tank, some soldiers or other images related to the article. Themanwithoutapast 01:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the picture you are referring to is this one, which clearly indicates that it is copyrighted. →Raul654 01:41, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, the use of this pic falls under the fair use doctrine as indicated on the talk page of the pic. Where is the problem? Themanwithoutapast 01:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the picture you are referring to is this one, which clearly indicates that it is copyrighted. →Raul654 01:41, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, you can even find some non-copyrighted material on wikipedia related to the Yom Kippur War: pic, and in general the fair use-doctrine is quite generous, so with the right justification it's possible to include photos of e.g. a tank, some soldiers or other images related to the article. Themanwithoutapast 01:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- You said it yourself -- there aren't any non-copyrighted pictures available. →Raul654 22:43, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Comment: Just curious, why are all of the references Israeli sources? --Tabor 07:10, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Look up, at my reply to Simon, re: "The Arab side of the war is poorly documented..." →Raul654 07:14, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
- Support. Well written, comprehensive, as NPOV as one can get with Israel-Arab (the lack of a POV tag is a great compliment to the article). Well referenced, lots of important stats, inclusion of all major fronts - inclduing Sea - was welcome. Maybe more about the American airdrop, but aprat from that well worthy of Featured Article status --Batmanand 14:19, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Minor object. Technical issues: remove external links from main body, transform into notes.Add a picture to the warbox.Merge 4 lead paras into 3, as specified by Wikipedia:Lead.Can stubbish sections 'at sea', 'Participation by other Arab states' be expanded a little? Also, their paras are one-two sentences, consider merging. After those minor points are adressed, I'll support. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)- (1) Done (2) A picture in the warbox is not part of the standard, as far as I can tell (3) Done (4) There's really not a whole lot more to say about the war at sea -- there was one battle, and it's already described and its individual article linked; as far as participation by other arab states -- there were two big players (Syria and Egypt), two minor players (Iraq and Jordan), and those are described in great detail in the article; the contributions by the rest were small enough that there's really not a whole lot more to say than what is in that small section →Raul654 22:05, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
- If they cannot be expanded anymore, then so be it, it was just a suggestion. What template are you using? It might need to be merged with Template:Warbox. Anyway, pic in lead is nice and thus I think there should be one in the warbox. I'll support when I see a pic in lead. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:34, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- (1) Done (2) A picture in the warbox is not part of the standard, as far as I can tell (3) Done (4) There's really not a whole lot more to say about the war at sea -- there was one battle, and it's already described and its individual article linked; as far as participation by other arab states -- there were two big players (Syria and Egypt), two minor players (Iraq and Jordan), and those are described in great detail in the article; the contributions by the rest were small enough that there's really not a whole lot more to say than what is in that small section →Raul654 22:05, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
- Support A good survey, though it could be more engaged in some of the international relations literature, which is at the root of some of the problems noted by SimonP. 172 06:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
