Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pope John Paul II/archive 1

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[edit] Pope John Paul II

An anon user nominated this article but neither created this page nor put the FAC tags correctly, so I went ahead and did it. Flcelloguy 22:08, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Two things to mention:

1) A user signed his (her?) four tildes ( ~~~~ ) before the title (===[[Pope John Paul II]]===) of this section. I'm not sure what he meant, but I went ahead and removed it.

2) Originally I was not planning on pushing for this article. I simply noticed that an anon user had attempted to put the article up for FAC but had done it incorrectly. However, after actually reading the article and reading the comments, I have decided to push for the article, since it seems like the anon user isn't coming back. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, and I'll be getting to them over the next week or so. (I'm travelling over the next week and might have limited computer access, so bear with me please!) Thanks! Flcelloguy 02:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have now added a few paragraphs for the "Health" section, though the sub-article ( {{main|Health of Pope John Paul II}} ) is kept. In addition, I have expanded the introduction (lead) section to make it more inclusive- it is now 3 paragraphs long. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and comments, and I'll be working on the rest soon! Flcelloguy 02:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Due to above, my Support is now full. JDG 16:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

More Recent Update: Sorry it's been taking me so long, I've been busy cleaning up competition... Anyways, after re-reading the article for the umpteenth time, I would have to agree with some of them- the focus on death, too little focus on S. America, etc. These are major changes and will take some time to fix, depending on how busy I am (feel free to help!). Thus, I plan to take this article to peer review after I'm done fixing all the objections and then re-submitting it as a FAC. However, feel free (as always) to put more input here. Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions! Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 21:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Update: All minor objections (such as fixing confusing uses of John Paul to John Paul II and the "Health" section) have been taken care of. Thanks to everybody for their comments and suggestions. I will be taking a look at the rest of the comments/suggestions over the next few days, and will get to them soon! Thanks! Flcelloguy 02:52, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Support Comprehensive, NPOV. Could do a better job of using references to back up its statements, and may focus too much on his recent death and the possibility of beatification. --Bcrowell 22:22, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support, but I would suggest tightening up the intro a bit. Everyking 22:33, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Conditional Support (now Full Support, see Above. JDG). Bring the Health section back into this article and blow away the sub-article. Wikipedia is becoming a click fest. The current activism in favor of short core-topic articles with many sub-articles is very misguided. When you sit down to read a major topic article you don't want to be chasing down scores of sublinks and subsublinks-- you want all the relevant info in that article. This is what Enc. Brit and almost all serious ref. works do, and it's for a reason. You put all or most of the detailed stuff in far-flung sub-articles that far fewer readers visit and you've succeeded in what: reverse-dissemination of information. JDG 00:29, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Most Wikipedians support sub-articles, and the idea that we shouldn't shove a huge amount of text down the reader's throat at once, though. So I don't think that's a fair thing to ask. Everyking 04:07, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm only asking for the restoration of a single section. I'm not sure where you get "most Wikipedians". Has there been a vote? I'm not sure if Flcelloguy is actually pushing for this article such that he's making changes in line with comments here. If he is and he wants my particular support, he'll restore Health. I won't oppose if he fails to, though. JDG 05:21, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please see above note. Thanks! Flcelloguy 02:58, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • • Agree, Health needs to be expanded into a subsection. Sub-article should remain, though. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Abiding by Summary style is an FA requirement and bringing all the content at Health of Pope John Paul II would imbalance the article toward the later part of his life even more than the article already is. --mav

This is really a requirement for FA? The first sentence of the link you give says "In order to make Wikipedia maximally useful to a diverse readership some people believe that articles should be written in summary style." That certainly doesn't sound like something that has risen to policy status. I really think it's time for a major vote on article length. I think a 32kb limit would be extremely detrimental and I'm sure many agree. JDG

See item 6 at Wikipedia:What is a featured article. Summary style does not require articles to abide by the 32KB limit, it just says that once an article reaches that length of prose it may be getting too long. As is, this article has less than 34KB of prose and since it covers a very important topic it should be easy to justify even more prose than there is already. So long as it is written well and stays tightly on-topic. --mav 20:44, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • I have now written a few paragraphs for the "Health" section, though it still links to the "Main" article on his health. Flcelloguy 02:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose Much of this article is excellent work. But its organization, and the lengthy treatment of the relevant sections, make it seem as though the most important aspects of his papacy were his death and its aftermath. I also think the discussion of his ecclesiastical career in Poland needs a bit more development (and context), that his positions on social and economic justice need more exposition, and that the discussion of his political influence needs a bit more development and structure. Monicasdude 03:46, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions, Monicasdude! I just have two comments/questions: 1) When you say you think the emphasis is on his death and aftermath, are you proposing that we cut down on the death/funeral sections? Most of those are already two or three short paragraphs and have another "sub" article of their own. Second, could you please tell me which sections of the articles you feel need improvement? That would be a great help. Thanks very much! Flcelloguy Give me a note! ^{Desk 02:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)}

• Support. I wouldn't agree with moving the whole health article back into the main piece, but a small summary would be better than a heading and a link. Other than that, a worthy FA page. Harro5 11:38, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with Harro5 regarding the health section. JYolkowski // talk 17:00, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Object - An article on such an important topic needs to really shine. So far, this article has several issues I think need to be addressed before that can be achieved:
  1. Lead section is too short for an article this size on such an important topic. Condensing the ==Overview== section (which is the purpose of a lead section, btw) and merging the current lead section will accomplish that.

Please see above- I've now expanded lead section, and I'll take a look at the "Overview" section soon. Thanks! Flcelloguy 02:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• 1. TOC is overwhelming and there are way too few inline cites.
  2. Having a heading with the only content under it being a link is appalling. Add a paragraph or two about his declining health to the death subsection and rename that to reflect the change.Then make the link to Health of Pope John Paul II inline instead of it being a main article link.

Done. (Again, please see above) Flcelloguy 02:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• 1. The ==Other== section is just a list of what looks like miscellaneous trivia. What is its purpose?

I'll be looking at the rest of the suggestions soon- thanks everyone! Flcelloguy 02:39, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you that the "Other" section is just trivia. The only one that looks like it could be incorporated into the article is the first one about "Totus Tuus". Would there be any problems if I incorporated that one and deleted the rest of the section? Thanks. Flcelloguy Give me a note! ^{Desk 02:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)}

• 1. Confusing use of 'John Paul' instead of 'John Paul II' in some parts of the article.
  • Fixed- all "John Paul"s now say "John Paul II". Flcelloguy 02:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  1. Organization: Having ==Biography== and ==Life's work== are odd as the major level 2 sections. One's life work *is* a very large part of their biography. Nixing these level 2s and finding a better way to organize would help. As is, the article does not seem to have a cohesive structure (moving this material out of its current level 2 section would likely fix this).

  I hope you are not advocating abandoning of lv 2 sections? I added them to this article some time ago - although they have been much changed by later editors. I generally find 2nd level sectioning very helpful. Perhaps sth should be moved from one lv1 section to another, but leveling the sections would do more harm then good, I am afraid. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  1. Over-concentration on declining health, death and funeral in the ==Biography== section. As is, those aspects take up half of that section (this could be fixed by reorganization under a different level 2 heading or by condensing).
• Aside: I was surprised to see that the further reading, notes, external links, references, and interwiki links have a very significant impact on the physical size of this article and that without them this article isn't nearly as large as it seems from the page size warning - 34KB (just a note for anybody who is thinking about objecting due to the article's apparent size). --mav
• Support- The article is very informative, and extremely NPOV. --User:SVera1NY
  • The above vote is this user's only edit ever. --mav
• Object Very little focus on Latin America, though this region is home to the world's largest Catholic population. (Maybe I went through this article way too fast, but is Liberation Theology even mentioned?) Also, the section on "criticism" should be woven in with the rest of his text. History actually contains far more many shades of grade than the picture presented by those who seem to imagine there to be only two perspectives on the past ("supporters" and "critics"). 172 06:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Object. The organization needs work. The contentless health subsection needs to be expanded or turned into a simple see also. The image gallery also looks as though it is missing two pictures. Good articles really shouldn't have an other section and the factoids listed there should be merged into the prose. - SimonP 18:21, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Health section now done (see above). Thanks! Flcelloguy 02:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... I've tried fixing the gallery, but it's not working. I've posted a help comment on the help desk. Any ideas? Thanks! Flcelloguy | Give me a note! | Desk 16:33, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Object. Agree with most of Mav and other users' objections. Several days ago I put this article in Polish Wikipedians Notice Board to do 'close to PR' section, just because I don't think it is FAC ready yet. Close, true, better then several of our current FAs, true, but not something I'd nominate just yet. Although it is close enough so that with one-two editors willing to put some time and address those objections we can make it a FA in that voting run yet :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 21:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Witkacy 22:28, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Object, I agree with the criticisms about the balance given to different portions of his life, too little in some aresa too much in others. Also, what is up with the 31 external links to obituaries?--nixie 06:44, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I, too, personally felt a bit overwhelmed at the large number of external links when I first read the article. However, should we delete some of those? I'm a bit hesistant because now that we have so many links, how do we choose which ones to keep and which ones to delete? Thanks, Flcelloguy Give me a note! ^{Desk 02:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)}

All the links seem to link to a particular media organisations direcoty of links about PJPII, I'd delete them all except the criticisms and the ones specifically labelled as directories.--nixie 05:08, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Done. Flcelloguy | Give me a note! | Desk 16:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Support. The late Pope looks good but the lead is a bit long. Dralwik 17:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support Pope John Paul II was a great man.Yo Mama 5000
  • But this article is not. I would even go as far as to say that in it's present form it offendes the pope - he deserves so much better. Please, people, don't let your admiration for the men get in the way of this review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)