Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pink Floyd

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[edit] Pink Floyd

The Pink Floyd article was subjected to a peer review (archived here) some time back and many considered it a candidate for a featured article at that time. Many of the concerns in the peer review were addressed, and I've addressed the rest in the last couple weeks. Many other editors have copyedited and tweaked the article in the months since the review to the point that I think it's worthy of featured status. - dharmabum 01:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I believe inline citations are required for the sales figures. Gflores ^Talk 02:15, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I have now provided in-line citations for sales figures in the article wherever possible, and removed uncited figures to the individual album pages. The one thing I'm stuck on is a citation for the RIAA's official 23x platinum certification for The Wall, as the RIAA's site doesn't seem to provide the ability to link directly to a single album. I'll work on finding another credible source - if anyone knows another repository for their figures it would be appreciated. - dharmabum 05:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support This major Pink Floyd fan says yes, yes, yes. Denni ☯
• Oppose:
  • A featured article should assume the reader knows nothing about its subject. If I had never heard a Pink Floyd song in my life, I could read this whole article and still not have any more than a slight hint about what they sounded like. Fair-use audio clips of a few representative tracks may be helpful (general consensus is that fair-use clips of copyright songs should not exceed 30 seconds, should be noticeably less than CD-quality audio and should be in OGG Vorbis format). However, description of PF's "sound" is also a must.
  • The external links sprinkled throughout the article should be converted to proper inline citations.
  • The article almost entirely leaves out the reception of the band by professional music critics. Given the body of writing that has been published about Pink Floyd, this should be easy to find.
  • "noted for their ... thoughtful lyrics" What does "thoughtful" mean here? If it means that PF's lyrics are more poignant/intelligent/poetic than typical rock lyrics, this is a POV assertion unless it is backed with good citations. Again, it should not be a hard task to find support from some noted rock critics.
  • "a significant intake of psychedelic drugs took its toll on Barrett. In January 1968, guitarist David Gilmour joined the band to carry out the playing and singing duties of Syd, whose mental health had been deteriorating for several months." Obviously Barrett's issues back then have become part of rock lore and are factual; nevertheless, whenever you make claims about a person's illegal drug use, mental illness, etc., it's best to cite them directly.
  • "The album contained hints of things to come..." Like?
  • "The album was a transitional piece for the group, hinting at future musical territory." And again.
  • "The title is schoolboy slang for sexual procreation" Source?
  • There are a lot of other statments that need to be cited. This article has a lot of information but will need going-over with a fine-tooth comb (preferably by someone without much familiarity with the band, as it seems to me that non-fans may be the ones most puzzled by this article) before it can become Featured. Andrew Levine 04:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I have addressed many of the direct critiques presented. I have changed "thoughtful" (which I never liked) to the more apt "philosophic", as a brief glance at their lyrics indicates their philosophic intentions, but the word does not carry a POV implication of whether such philosophic lyrics are well-written or insightful. Citations and external links have been formatted correctly, sources for Barrett's drug use, the "Ummagumma" slang provided, and the specific questions about "things to come" have been addressed. I have also provided more detail on the band's sound, describing it more fully in the Barrett years and providing an overview of each era's changing sound at the top of their subsections. There are still no audio clips (I have some technical issues that will delay providing any), and someone unfamiliar with the article going over it with a fine-tooth comb would be terrific, but I just wanted to let you know what had been addressed. - dharmabum 22:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support - Good article. Cedars 08:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Good article, should be featured. --Myles Long/cDc 15:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Support Weak Oppose - The article is well-written, fairly intriguing. However, as per Andrew Levine's comments, I'll have to oppose. I'm willing to change to a (weak) support if some of those issues are corrected. ♠ SG →Talk 21:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Alright, it seems like some of it was corrected, but I still don't see much describing their sound (which was very unique compared to the other bands during their years). However, even if it gets FA status, this article will never reach the front page without having at least one sample (Comfortably Numb would be good). Nevertheless, you have my support. ♠ SG →Talk 23:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The article now has an extensive series of sound clips which are cross-referenced to their applicable eras in the article, which can be viewed here. This is the first time I've encoded OGG files, uploaded them and added them to an article, so please let me know right away if you find any problems with them. - dharmabum 08:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Battersea Power Station provides this link to support the bit of lore that not only was the inflatable pig difficult to control in the high winds, it actually broke away. This should be in the article IMO. Other than that, since it's an FA on the Hebrew, Polish and Russian wikis, it's high time to get this together and make it an FA here. Daniel Case 05:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Added the link you provided, thanks! - dharmabum 08:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support Strong Support. It's hard to imagine not knowing what Pink Floyd sounds like, so descriptions like "progressive compositions" and "sonic experimentation" seem perfectly suitable to me. I'm not sure how many samples fair use allows, and it would be impossible to give an adequate example with just one clip. Sure, Comfortably Numb is a great song, but it has almost nothing to do with their more experimental sounds on songs like Echoes or Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun or Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict. The clip doesn't seem all that important to me because it would be a tiny drop in a vast bucket of wildly different sounds. Fair use only goes so far. Kafziel 06:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know that fair use prohibits the number of clips, just the length and quality of them and the context they are put in. The Beatles, which is a featured article, provides 27 clips, for instance. I've prepared a bunch of 15-25 second 64kbps OGG clips showcasing the different styles of the Floyd eras, they just need to be uploaded and inserted, should have them in the article by tomorrow (unless someone demonstrates that there is a restriction on the number of clips). - dharmabum 06:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Wow - 27, huh? Well, your additions sound good. If I could enter another "support" vote, I would. I'll just go ahead and change my vote to "strong support"... not that that counts for anything, but what the heck. Kafziel 07:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

"It's hard to imagine not knowing what Pink Floyd sounds like..." Guess what? Some people don't. And some people have trouble playing our sound files, or can't for technical reasons. Phrases like "progressive compositions" and "sonic experimentation" mean nothing to most people who aren't heavily into music, and even for audiophiles they can imply a wide variety of very different sounds (The could apply equally to Yes, or Merzbow, or Cecil Taylor or, or, or...). There simply needs to be more prose description of what Pink Floyd sounded like. Andrew Levine 02:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support - Good job! Gflores ^Talk 00:35, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support - The article seems clean of fan bias and is well-written. More description of their sound might be welcome, but that could be difficult considering the several eras the band's history is split through meant a constant change in their sound; such as the psychedelia of Barrett, the post-Barrett/pre-Dark Side period which was very experimental, the somewhat jazz-influenced and deliberately paced Dark Side period, and the Roger Waters period which often leaned more into hard rock. Medico Dimamico ^Talk

I've done my best describing their sound, but I lack the prose. I find trying to describe music with words difficult, at best - I could write 10,000 words on J.S. Bach's music without giving the sense of it that 5 minutes of listening would. I selected the sound clips very carefully, trying to showcase their sounds without just providing clips of their most prominent singles, and while I acknowledge the problem some people have playing OGG files (me included), it's the best I can offer until someone with better prose abilities decides to give it a shot. - dharmabum 08:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This may be beside the point, but in my book if someone comes to Wikipedia to learn about what Pink Floyd (or any band) sounds like, then they don't deserve to know. ;) Kafziel 08:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Are you serious? An encyclopedia article about a musical group shouldn't make an effort to describe what they sound like? Do you think that that this article should only be intended for people who are already Floyd fans? Andrew Levine 01:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support An unbiased article. --Siva1979^{Talk to me}10:11, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
• Object - the lead is a tad bit long, several sections could be broken up into seperate articles (the whole article runs quite long), several of those sections lack any references or inline notes (for example, the section "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" contains no notes or refs), and I agree with the above that more description of the sound would be nice. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 16:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to put some thought into how to address this exactly, but it's worth pointing out that the lead was actually expanded recently in order to meet the Featured Music Project criteria after its evaluation. - dharmabum 06:17, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

This comment and the one at Phil Collins's FA candidacy from Flcelloguy has changed the Featured Music Project criteria regarding intro sections. I've trimmed the introduction in accord with the new criteria. - dharmabum 10:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply! I'll need to have some time to re-review the article, but another minor objection first: it appears that all the refs at the end of the sentence are placed before the period in the article, while the standard (see Wikipedia:Footnotes) suggests that they be moved after the period. Could this be fixed? Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:29, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Done. - dharmabum 00:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I've now moved the section about bootlegs to the discography; if you have any other suggestions for info that should be moved elsewhere to streamline the article, I'd love to hear them. - dharmabum 08:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I've taken your ideas further and removed a large volume of information about Pink Floyd's live shows, reducing the article by around 20k and moving it to the new article, Pink Floyd live performances. The "Live Performances" subsection has a link to the new page using the {{main}} template. - dharmabum 01:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Comment You only put links in the refs. Actually using the bibliography for refs is good (see Salsa music for an example). Also, maybe remove name attributes when you make only one note with the reference. Circeus 16:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip; I'm a newcomer to the ref system and didn't even know not putting a name attribute was an option. I've done as you suggested. I plan to put some references to Schaffner's biography into the article, but it's the only one in the bibliography I own and I haven't had time to sit down with it yet. (Done) - dharmabum 21:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• support. my prior comments that references not complete enough for the extent of material. written with bad grammar and in too much slang and colloquial have been addressed. lots of good material and cover art . Anlace 00:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've altered the language somewhat and tried to clean up any slanginess I could see, but if you have any direct examples I'd be happy to address them. I've also added over 20 references. - dharmabum 01:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
• Oh, also, I could only find 2 instances out of nearly 100 uses of the word "band" which incorrectly used a reference to a plural noun. If you spot any others, please let me know. - dharmabum 01:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I went through and changed a few more plural references to "band". InTheFlesh? 17:43, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've now also addressed the inconsistencies in paragraph length. - dharmabum 23:40, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support -- an excellent article worthy of recognition. - Longhair 03:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)