Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ohio Wesleyan University/archive2

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[edit] Ohio Wesleyan University

Self-nom. A few dedicated editors have vastly improved this article. It is better referenced than any other educational institution that I could find on Wikipedia. There have been 3 peer reviews, and it is currently a GA. WikiprojectOWU 05:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment OK, as an Alumn, I have a few questions:
    • "in the school's PhD creation rate" Has OWU started offering PhD's in the past 15 years or are you referring to students who go on to earn PhD's elsewhere? When I was a student, OWU didn't offer any graduate programs. If this is the later, then you need to clarify that.
    • "In the athletics world, the Battling Bishops" This is the first reference to the Battling Bishops and there is no indication that the Battling Bishop is our school Mascott. I'd love to see a picture included here.
      • Battling Bishops occurs in the infobox in the beginning of the article. Do you think it will help if the term is reintroduced after that? Will it be not be redundant?WikiprojectOWU 01:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Personally I would include in the intro... people may not read or notice the info box... I didn't. If it is mentioned in the article, then IMHO it should explained in the article.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • I see your point but I think this one is a matter of Wikipedia convention. WikiprojectOWU 05:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • [72][73][74][75] I was advised in my peer reviews to condence multiple back to back references... I don't know if this is standard, but just throwing my two cents out there.
      • These references are provided as a result of past discussions among various users to back statements on a multifaceted criteria. The discussions appear on the Talk page of the article.WikiprojectOWU 01:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I don't know what the wikistandard is, so I'll defer to others and accept the above.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • GLCA agreement---I'd like to see GLCA spelled out the first time it is used. EDIT: Just saw that it was, but the acronym wasn't used when the term was used, thus people wouldn't associate GLCA with Great Lakes College Association.
      • Fixed. This was a great suggestion! WikiprojectOWU 01:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "Over the past decade there has been a building boom within Ohio Wesleyan," Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the past two decades? The new Union, the renovation of Austin Manor, the conversion of the main street into a walk way, etc all started while I was a student there.
    • The Strand Theatre should have more than just a short sentence saying that it was historic.
      • It has a separate article. If we include more information here, what part about Strand do you think is worth sharing on the main article? WikiprojectOWU 05:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "upperclass students are placed in dormitories through a lottery system." when I was there the lottery was to live off campus, the article makes it sound as if that has now changed?
      • You are correct. Both applicants for on-campus and off-campus living go trough a lottery system. For on-campus applicants, the lottery is for dorms. WikiprojectOWU 04:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I haven't looked at the article, but did you clarify this in the article?Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Fixed. I clarified the policy in the article but feel free to let me know if you feel more detail is necessary. WikiprojectOWU 00:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "Most students cite the school's policy on off-campus housing as one of the "worst things" about Wesleyan." Explain why... if it's the same reason as when I was there is was because more people wanted to live off campus, but that doesn't come across here.
    • Norman Vincent Peale the Methodist Minsiter and author of the series of books, "The Power of Positive Thinking" definately needs to be included in the list of famous alumni. He is one of the most famous alumni's and was the keynote speaker at the sequentenial (150th) graduation ceremony in 1992.
      • He definitely appears in the List of Ohio Wesleyan University people section. I tried to lump alumni into broad groups such as Politicians, Scientists, Arts and Sports and tried to keep it tight. WikiprojectOWU 04:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • OK, that's a judgement call... I think he deserves to be on the main page, but I can accept your position.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The Transcript non-OWU people won't know that the Transcript is the school newspaper.
      • Where specific reference do you mean? The first reference that I saw in the article clarifies that it is the school newspaper. WikiprojectOWU 04:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Ok, I must have missed the first reference when I read it.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure if the election results and voting districts of Delaware are imporatant.
      • It is always a fair game question to ask whether political leanings of an organization are important to include in the article. I think in this context they provide a legitimacy check for political NPOV. For example, one might say that the Activism section leans left. In the context of the fact that the whole campus leans left actually, then the Activism section fits several NPOV criteria: undue weight, equal validity, consensus reality and good research I think referencing election results from two precints, exclusively precints for OWU students, legitimizes the fact about their political leanings. WikiprojectOWU 04:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I'd question if the OWU students had that much sway in the two precincts. AFter all, there are only 1800 students and pricincts are usually counted in the thousands. And college students, even at OWU, are notoriously poor voters many of whom will vote absentee in their home states. But again, it's a judgment call.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • These are actually small precincts and created a lot of headaches for the Delaware County Election Board because of a discrepancy between voting behavior on an Ohio issue and the following presidential elections. Check the references on this issue actually. The story is somewhat thick and interesting. In fact, this made the national news and is still a pending issue. It is also well-referenced. WikiprojectOWU 05:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The activism section seems to be loaded with POV. It is ALL liberal and mostly current events. While I agree the school is pretty much on the liberal side, there are conservatives who are active there.
      • What part of the article do you think violates the current NPOV criteria? I provided a rationale above. WikiprojectOWU 04:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I think the section needs to expanded AND trimmed. There is too much on the past few years and not enough on the older stuff. For example the efforts against Apartheid in the late 80's, the boycott of McDonalds (for serving food in styrofoam containers,) Habitat for Humanity, the Haiti Trips. What about activism earlier than this? I'd trim the section down SIGNFICANTLY. I don't support getting rid of it, but as is its length and extreme position make it POV. I'd also consider getting rid of the section where Campus Crusade for Christ is attacked... as written, without knowing the full extent of the situation, it sounds as if OWU students/faculty decided to squash the free speach of a group they disagreed with.Balloonman 20:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Fixed. Let me know if you have any objections to the new section. It should address all of your concerns. WikiprojectOWU 21:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Also, when I was there, there was a mock "electoral college" event held every four years where the students 'voted' for the presidential candidate for the party out of office. This might be a place to mention that.
      • Wow, great suggestion! I think this may actually fall under Traditions. Or do you prefer to include it under Activism? WikiprojectOWU 04:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Traditions... because it isn't advocating a stance, the tradition is to take the party out of power (regardless of whether it is Republican or Democrat)... oh I think I messed up isn't it "mock convention" not "electoral college?"Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Fixed. I included 3 sentences to the Traditions section referencing the starting year of the tradition and its significance. WikiprojectOWU 06:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "In fact, originally the event started as a girl's atheltic fete, hel in celebration of the organization of the Monnett Athletic Club." fete? hel? I think the second word is supposed to be held, but I'm not sure about the first
      • I fixed "hel", and fête means "party". Lovelac7 06:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • Ok. thanks.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "The school mascot is the Battling Bishop, and the official school colors are crimson red and black." This should be moved to the intro.
      • This sounds like a great idea but I haven't seen anything like this in the intro sections of Cornell, Duke University, MSU or University of Michigan. Are you sure your suggestion is consistent with the FAC criteria guidelines? WikiprojectOWU 07:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
        • No... it's just my opinion. I don't know what the proper form is.Balloonman 20:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd get rid of the slang terms section.
    • midnight breakfast should be moved to the end, where it is at it makes the other events that follow it look like new traditions as well.
    • WHAT ABOUT THE ROCK!!! I know it is still used, I saw it when I visited the campus 2 years ago!
      • You probably realize by now that including or not including something can be "you are damned if you do, damned if you don't" issue. Do you really think that the rock is worth including in the article? If so, under what heading? WikiprojectOWU 05:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
        • I think the ROCK deserves to be there more than some of the other traditions. The rock has been in use for at least 40 years. (When I was there 20 years ago, alumni would say, "I remember that rock!") It is also a somewhat unique tradition among colleges---whereas "Presidents Ball" or a number of other listed things are no different than other campuses. Also, something to look into, back in 1988 I believe it was, there was a car wreck that killed 3 OWU students on their way home from a Model UN event. The rock was painted w/ their names and it was weeks before there was a huge cerimony before anybody would use it.Balloonman 08:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
          • I agree that it is somewhat unique. Do you mind if I put it for discussion on the Talk page? I would like to include it in the Traditions Section but I need some history of how the Rock got on campus. I think it will be useful. Do you know its history? WikiprojectOWU 22:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "Ohio Wesleyan University has 21 varsity sports teams that are known as the Battling Bishops." Does it have any that aren't known as the Battling Bishops?
    • "it in several athletics magazines' rankings in the late 1990s on weirdest college mascots." Needs a reference.
      • Fixed. Several additional references were provided. WikiprojectOWU 07:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I REALLY want to see this FAC pass, but these are some factual questions/points that only an alumn could ask.Balloonman 07:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Object. On the nominator's talk page I left examples from the lead of why the whole article needs serious copy-editing. I think that this nomination is premature. Here's another problem that my eyes landed on first thing scrolling down the article:
    • "On 5 August 1846, the first president Edward Thomson delivered his inaugural address in which he maintained that "the college was a product of the liberality of the people of Delaware and that it was fortunate that Ohio Wesleyan was founded in a community divided in religious and political opinions because the friction of a mixed society prevents dogmatism and develops energy and pointed that the spirit of the college is the spirit of liberty".[21]" Now, is this a direct quote in its entirety? I ask, because it has the markers for an indirect quote ("and that ...", and "pointed that", which I guess should be "pointed out that ...").
    • Fixed the ambiguity. Tony, thank you for point this out! WikiprojectOWU 05:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "Only three of the past presidents are actually graduates"—spot the redundant word.
      • Fixed this one. Lovelac7 06:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • "Accounts on the school's first president Edward Thomson focus on flowing eloquence, interest in literature and philosophy."—on? Surely "of". Do you mean "his" flowing eloquence? And does this refer to his prose/oratory, or what? "And" should appear before "interest", then another "his". What a mess.
      • Fixed. I reworded the sentence and the concerns above have been addressed. WikiprojectOWU 07:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No, this needs serious work. Tony 11:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Conditional Support. Once we fix the issued on this page, I'll wholeheartedly support the nomination. In the mean time here's my 2¢:

  • The university presidents section still needs some work. In particular, some aspects of the section refer to the role of the president's office, and other parts discuss past presidents' role in campus history. It might help if you separated the "People" section into "Administration" and "Alumni" subsections, moving at least some of the "Presidents" section there.
  • Some of the OWU traditions probably aren't all that notable. Doesn't every school have a homecoming, convocation, and commencement, etc.? I'd rather hear about the traditions that are unique to your alma mater.

The community groups listed in the "Campus" section should go into the "student life" section. That's all I can think of for now. If I find anything else, I'll let you know. Lovelac7 06:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Object. I cannot support this article unless something is done about the activisim section, which is POV in its extreme selectivity and uncomprehensive in its focus on the last half decade. There is really nothing there that is not typical of any American university, and my preference would be to drop the section entirely. However, this can also be fixed by summarizing the types of protest activities undertaken by students throughout the existence of the University with references. Indrian 07:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Indrian, since I am the nominator of the article and a person who have put a lot of time in improving the article recently, I would like to step in and ask you, you mentioned As a result, the article only shows what issues are improtant to the person who posted the particular events and are therefore POV, what issues are important and are not represented in the Activism section? WikiprojectOWU 21:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
      • First, let me say that I applaud the work you have been doing on this article and other articles related to OWU over the past several months. Your hard work has gone a long way towards making this article informative and balanced. As to the issue of activism, I wish I could be of more help. I do not claim to know what issues have been especially important to OWU students over the course of the institution's history, nor do I know the specifics about the level of activism in general. All I can do is tell you what I would like to see. If the activism section is removed, I do not think it does great harm to the article, as this is a common facet of American universities and therefore does not present a unique understanding of OWU. Now, I am not saying that such a section offends me; just that if that section cannot be made comprehensive then it can be removed to satisfy my concerns. If the section is to stay, it needs to become more general. For example (and none of the following is based on actual facts so please do not put it in the article), the section could say that "In the 1960s, OWU students, like many students across the nation, were strongly against the Vietnam War and engaged in numerous protests that mobilized as many as 500 individuals, with the largest gathering taking place on December 18, 1967." This could then be backed up by references in the Transcript or Delware Gazette that illustrate such protests were taking place and how many people they attracted. For the 2000s, one could research the Transcript and Gazette to compile a complete list of protests engaged in by students over those years, determine which issues garnered the most protests and student support, and then use this research to state what issues are particularly important to students today. I realize that this may be beyond what you are able to accomplish during the FA period, or even at anytime, but I feel that any FA article must be backed up by thorough research of the appropriate primary and secondary sources. An activism section which merely states that X students protested Y action on Z day, wash, rinse, repeat, does nothing to illuminate how activism works on the campus in general and therefore prevents the section from being comprehensive or NPOV. Something that may be more realiztic during the period of the FA would be to compile a list of activist groups on campus and give a small overview of the areas they operate in and one or two specific examples to illustrate the point. I hope that helps. Indrian 21:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Object. Refer to peer review. This article needs quite a bit of editing and I don't think the FAC is the appropriate place for it. In general, the effort to be comprehensive has diluted focus from that which is notable. Here are a few of my specific problems, but this is not an exhaustive list.

  • Too many references to where the school ranked in whatever ranking system is being referenced, especially in the lead.
  • The lead should contain a mention of the school's Methodist origins and its current relationship with the Methodist Church.
    • Fixed. WikiprojectOWU 03:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Maybe I am missing something, but I do not believe you responded to the full objection. I still see nothing about the current relationship with the Methodist Church. I suspect I know why this was left out. A while back, some users tried to add the school to the category of Methodist-affliated schools. OWU is, in fact, still officially affliated with the Methodist church, but the presence of the church is so miniscule that few people realize this is so or encounter the church in their daily lives. Adding this fact may touch off an edit war as some users (wrongly) attempt to deny the Methodist affiliation, tenuous as it may be. Not admitting it may fail to satisfy this objection. I have also removed WikiprojectOWU's strikethroughs from this objection. I am sure this was just done by her as a way to keep track of what she has changed, but it is up to the person who posted the objection to decide when concerns have been met and strikethrough his own objections. A strikethrough implies that the person who originally made the comment considers the issue to be closed. Indrian 03:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
  • The student life section is way too big for the article. Student life in general is not terribly notable, and as such the article reads more like university PR. Condense the whole thing down about 80%.
    • I am not sure I understand your comments here. Are you saying that Traditions, Organizations and distinctive policies regarding student life, all part of this section and components that make one school different from another are not terribly interesting to read or just plain non-notable in general? After checking the other schools' FA articles, I am even more confused: they all seem to contain such sections and some are even bigger than our own here: see Cornell University, University of Michigan, Duke University and Michigan State University. Could you please explain what you mean? WikiprojectOWU 01:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
      • WikiprojectOWU, this section could use a thorough trimming. Here's how:
        • Read Wikipedia:Summary Style for guidelines on how to trim down this section.
        • Create a new article called Ohio Wesleyan University student life or something like that.
        • Copy the entire "Student Life" section into the new article and add a few lead sentences.
        • Keep all four of sections you currently have, but trim down the number of housing options, the number of organizations, the number of protests and movements, and the number of traditions. Pick the most notable of each category.
        • I think you could probably cut down each of the student life sections to half the current lengths. If people are interested, they can link to the main "Student Life" article.
      • I think that these changes would go a long way in making the article FA-worthy. Lovelac7 02:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • History section is rather disjointed. Some of it is out of chronological order. I don't understand the purpose of the "Univeristy expansion and university presidents" subheading. You already have an article called List of Ohio Wesleyan University presidents so simply mention notable presidents naturally within the text. Keep the section focussed on notable events in history of the school rather than seeking to include every president's tenure. Also, there may be too much emphasis on the school's recent history.
    • This concern came up in another editor's comments. User:Lovelac7 comments were in the same general spirit, so I will try to tighten the section. WikiprojectOWU 01:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • In one section you say the school was founded to train ministers, but this isn't mentioned when you actually talk about the founding of the school.

This is not exhaustive. I suggest taking a good hard look at the article and making it quite a bit tighter.--DaveOinSF 01:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment. WikiprojectOWU asked me about the "Activism" section in the MSU article. For easy reference, I have color coded the various sections, with blue for liberals, red for conservatives, and purple for moderate, bipartisan, and nonpartisan. Furthermore, historical protests and movements are highlighted in goldenrod:

Activists have played an important role in MSU history. During the height of the Vietnam War, student protests helped create co-ed residence halls, blocked the routing of Interstate 496 through campus, and led to the resignation of MSU President John A. Hannah. In the 1980s, Michigan State students convinced the University to divest the stocks of companies doing business in apartheid South Africa from its endowment portfolio, such as Coca-Cola. Today, MSU has many student groups focused on political change. The student government is the Associated Students of Michigan State University (ASMSU). It is known for its unusual nonpartisan bicameral structure, which includes the parallel Student Assembly and Academic Assembly. Graduate campus groups include the Graduate Employees Union (GEU) and the Council of Graduate Students (COGS). Michigan State also has a variety of partisan groups ranging from liberal to conservative, including the College Republicans, the College Democrats and several third party organizations. Other partisan activist groups include Young Americans for Freedom on the right and Students for Economic Justice and Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (MEChA) on the left. Given MSU's proximity to the Michigan state capital of Lansing, many politically-inclined Spartans get internships for the state representatives.

Let's look more closely at the colors in this paragraph. Most of the political groups mentioned are centrist or nonpartisan. The paragraph is slighly slanted towards the left, though much of that is from our parent's generation, as you can see from the goldenrod highlighted section. Anyway, I hope this helps. Lovelac7 03:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment - The History section seems longer than the History of Ohio Wesleyan University article. I know we are not judging linked articles, but that just seems odd to me. -Bluedog423Talk 03:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - After performing a brief copyedit of the lead, I am somewhat suspicious of the quality of the references used in the rest of the article. The references didn't always provide the information that I was expecting. For example, "Campus construction efforts have resulted in new science and athletic facilities in recent years" reference was Remembering Mr. Rickey. Great. Maybe I can find about the new buildings by clicking around on that site, but that's not the point of a reference. The top ten of international student % link is to a U.S. News subscription service that I cannot see. "Top ten" should also be replaced with the exact number. Also, U.S. News didn't "rank" schools. They simply relayed facts about percentages. Can just state it as fact with U.S. News as the source. I found on another site that it was at 11%, but couldn't find where that places it. Also, no reference for twelve years in a row. Please make sure your references actually provide the information preceding them, and aren't just there to make readers think they do. -Bluedog423Talk 06:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
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