Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Grille (cryptography)/archive1

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[edit] Grille (cryptography)

This is superb coverage of a now essentially obsolete crypto technique, with connections to signficant mathematicians, politicians, and jurists of European history. Nicely done, well illustrated, full of interesting and obscure facts. Worth featuring. Unlike many crypto articles, I've not made a single edit to this one, so my nominational motives are pure. ww 18:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Object - Lead is nonexistant, and no inline citations. Fieari 18:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Lead fixed. Inline citations are a bad fit given the antiquity of use and obsolescence. References and links have been formalized, however. ww 14:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Lead is still insufficiant, and inline citations are not a bad fit, in that they connect references to the specific facts claimed. There are too few sections, I cannot believe that this is all there is to say on the subject. What about history? How about some more about its cryptanalysis? Some of the sections are too short. There is information contained in the lead that is not covered in the article, and the other way around as well. Four references may be insufficient for an example of our very best work. Fieari 19:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Unlike many topics, crypto history is largely covert and opaque; so literature references are sparse. Especially for old and now obsolete crypto techniques. The additional details suggested (eg, on cryptanalysis) are usually objected to when present in crypto articles (see Cedar-Guardian comment below), and so there is a compelled tendency to try to avoid technical material on the part of crypto editors. An annoying Scylla and Carybidis! The links to other articles, in the lead and elsewhere, are largely expected to slake curiosity on those points. Too short sections can be remedied, but risk including 'too much' technical detail. ww 21:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support now! Sorry, but Object:
    • Per WP:LEAD, you must have a lead adequately summing up the article.
      • Done ww 14:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Per WP:MOS, a section title should not start with "the" whenever possible.
      • Done. ww 14:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Inline citations seem to be a sine qua non condition nowadays... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 19:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
      • As above, inline citations are a bad fit given the antiquity of use and obsolescence. ww 14:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Much of the formatting is non-standard: the redlinked heading in 'Grille Ciphers' for example; plus the bullet points in 'References'. (Use *) --BillC 22:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Fixed. ww 14:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Object. No inline citations. Text looks like a usage guide rather than encyclopedia article. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Not sure how to address the 'usage guide' objection. In some sense, cyphers are nothing but an algorithm; as such, illustrations of the algorithm will be obligatory, and probably look like a usage manual from some perspectives. The history and connections given here provide some context, and the cryptography section discuses grille cyphers' value as against the Opposition. To wit, basically nil. Suggestions? ww 23:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. As the proposer, and responder to the objections above (which have each been addressed in the last few days), I think the article has been imporved and is an excellent example of a good WP article, a featured quality one. ww 02:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Note: FAC isn't a vote, so there's no need for the nominator to formally support like that. Just for future reference. We assume you think it's ready because you nominated it. Fieari 22:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Object. The article is too technical and does not provide sufficient context. There is no definition in the lead about what is a cipher, a Cardan grille... When I read the lead begining with Grille ciphers are written with cardboard sheets that have holes cut in them at regular or irregular intervals. I never would've though about a crypto technique. The first section starts with Although Francis Bacon used... Who's Francis Bacon? And many other examples. Plus there should be an image in the lead. CG 18:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The objection as to overmuch technicality is a problem. See comments by Fieari above is that there is too much. The lack of local repetition of contnet from other articles may not be. The links to other articles are expected to be used by the curious. I will suggest (or do it myslef) a first sentence along the lines of "In the history of cryptography, a grille cipher is ... A Cardan grille is the first known implementation of such a cipher..." This should address this concern. I will also suggest moving an image higher into the article. Lead, perhaps? ww 21:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
    • We could add some explanatory context, but probably not to the extent of defining things like "cipher", which would encumber it considerably, IMO. — Matt Crypto 22:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Object for now. Good article with very nice diagrams. Featured Articles do need inline citations, and there's plenty of specific facts which could be sourced. — Matt Crypto 22:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
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