Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dog Day Afternoon

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[edit] Dog Day Afternoon

The article went through a very uneventful PR, has been labelled as a Good Article, and even has photo content from Brooklynl (a witness to the original actual robbery). I feel it meets FA requirements and submit it to the FAC process. Staxringold _talk^contribs 00:34, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• Nominate and Support Staxringold _talk^contribs 01:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Support. The article is barely FA quality- if it had a longer lead section, I would support fully. RyanGerbil10 01:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Good. I now Support fully. RyanGerbil10 01:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article. Also in the lead, I don't think "inspiring" is the proper word for the article "The Boys in the Bank". Reword to: "The film was inspired by the article "The Boys in the Bank"[quotes only, no italics per WP:MOS-T], which told a similar story of..." - The Catfish 01:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Reply to both Expanded lead. Staxringold _talk^contribs 01:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• Object—Criterion 2a. Here are some examples.
  • "which told a similar story of John Wojtowicz and Salvatore Naturile robbing a Brooklyn bank." "tells" would be more vivid. Agent plus "ing" verb is ungrammatical, strictly speaking, unless an apostrophe is used, which is a little old-fashioned nowadays. Reword as: the robbery of a Br bank by a and b.

• Done

• • "recieved"—misspelt.

• Done

• • "The film has recieved generally positive reviews, with some noting the film's anti-establishment tones." The old "with" additive is tired and the last resort when attempting to link clauses. Try: "some of which referred to the film's ...".

• Done

• • "Pacino's "ATTICA!" line from the film has gone on to be referenced in other works." Can you use a better word than "referenced"? What does it mean, exactly?

• Done

• • "going to go"—yuck!

• Done

• • "As the film begins, Sal enters the bank as it is closing. Sal's accomplices Sonny and Stevie follow shortly after. Sal quietly threatens the bank manager as the other two wait for the remaining customers to leave." As ... as (the first one is ambiguous, anyway — = because or while — apart from the unfortunate repetition). "follow short after"—surely there's a better wording; stubby sentence. As for a third time. Are Sonny and Stevie customers? (Why "other" customers?)

• Reworded

Which issue of Life was the source article in? (Serious omission in the first sentence.)

• That seems like a inane detail that does not belong in the main article. However, if you take two seconds it is in the reference for the article. "September 22, 1972. Volume 73, Number 12." I can include that in the main body, but it seems like a tiny detail.

I can't bear to read further. Please get someone else to sift through it thoroughly. The whole thing. Tony 04:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• Please do not be insulting for no reason. I am more than happy to deal with specific complaints and I will try to find a good copyeditor to go through the article. Staxringold _talk^contribs 11:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
• Update Scm gave the article a thorough copyedit. Staxringold _talk^contribs 17:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

• I've copy-edited the top (see [[1]]). The prose is awkward, I'm afraid, and needs further work below the sections I've done, which themselves need your input in response to my inline queries. And can you delink the dictionary terms: we're meant to know what terms as "police" and "hostage" mean; inviting your readers to follow those very general links will diffuse the impact of your text. Tony 01:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
• Once the remaining hidden comments have been addressed (all relatively minor language issues), count me in for a support of a very good article. Harro5 07:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• Conditional Support as per Tony1 and Harro5's comments. Take care of minor copyedits and I fully support. Tombseye 18:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Fixed the basic unneeded links in the plot summary, will try to do a thorough copyedit when I have time. Staxringold _talk^contribs 19:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I now support the article. It's looking good! Tombseye 22:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The cast table needs to be moved. Most of our film articles leave that information from the end, and in its current position it's squished sideways by the infobox, making it longer than it needs to be. Also, the "actual event" section contains spoilers too. Some things seem overcited... you don't need to cite the cast list. Night Gyr 02:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment—It has improved, but keep working at it. Tony 04:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Object. The plot summary is far too long. Re-telling the story at length is not encyclopedic; the plot section only needs to say what the film is about and give enough material to understand the rest of the article. Henry^Flower 14:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

That goes against the style set by every other featured article on a film. Staxringold _talk^contribs 14:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. The DDA summary is 913 words; Casablanca's is 570 (and could do with a bit of trimming yet). Re-tellings of plots are huge temptations to bad and over-writing. Example: rather than After realizing they cannot make a simple getaway, Sal reminds Sonny that the two promised each other they would either escape or kill themselves. Sonny decides to use the hostages as leverage to get transportation to a jet that will take Sal and himself out of the country, offering one hostage each time a demand is satisfied (Sonny also demands his wife be brought to the scene and asks for some pizza). While waiting on the demands a tactical team approaches the bank's back door that had been barricaded, and Sonny fires a shot through the window to push the police back. Moretti claims that those police were a separate unit that he was not controlling., all you need is Sonny demands transportation to a jet to take them out of the country. When a tactical team approaches the back door, he fires a shot to warn them off. (Incidentally the tactical team wasn't waiting on the demands - the robbers were). Henry^Flower 15:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I trimmed that bit as you were absolutely right, that was unneeded detail. However, the rest of the plot is neccessary to fully understand what happens (you need details on the police movements to understand Sonny's reactions, you need to understand the conversation between Leon and Sonny to understand their relationship and at the very least learn that Sonny leaves Leon money in the movie to reflect the real life movie royalties given to Ernest Aron, etc. Staxringold _talk^contribs 20:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we could do a lot more of the same. Another example: Sonny is called outside and finds the FBI has brought his mother to the scene. She tries to get him to leave the bank peacefully, saying she talked to the FBI and they "understand" and it will be "all right" if he comes out. He refuses, sending her back home, is a very long-winded way of saying Sonny's mother unsuccessfully tries to persuade him to give himself up. Henry^Flower 21:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Support - great article! HeyNow10029 00:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support one of the best articles that don't have an enormous size... igordebraga ≠ 16:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)