Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cyrus the Great/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 20:17, 9 January 2007.

[edit] Cyrus the Great

Nomination temporarily suspended. I'm a bit short of time for the next week or so. As such, I won't have enough time to contribute substantially to the article. In the mean time, I am suspending this nomination until I return to correct the article per the concerns below. ♠ SG →Talk 06:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Self-nomination. This article was nominated back in August; it gained some support, but eventually failed. Over the past few months, Cyrus the Great has been improved vastly. Jona Lendering in particular has been instrumental in fixing up the article. Overall, I believe the concerns raised in the last FAC have been corrected, and the article should finally be ready for FA status. ♠ SG →Talk 03:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support as per the previous nomination.--Yannismarou 06:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
• I supported it during it's last nom and I'll support it again. Kyriakos 11:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
• Object for now, but there's good material, so I could support with some improvements. The first sentence of the lead is very confusing and hard to read as a sentence. I know people want the translations and the dates right up front, but perhaps there's a clearer and simpler way to do that? The semicolon separating the translations and the dates is such a minor mark compared to the other scripts and diacritics it's hard to tell what's going on. The footnotes are part of what makes it so hard to read. Cite those facts later in the article instead, and just let the lead be a summary of the article. 2) Per WP:LEAD the lead is too short. It should properly summarize all of the most important points of the article. 3) Eliminate the one and two sentence paragraphs, they make for poor flow of the prose. Either expand them, merge with related material, or remove them if they aren't important enough to expand on. 4) I was hoping to see just such a map and that's good, but since you're superimposing ancient and modern, you've got to be careful. For example, the words India fall in modern day Pakistan and that's potentially confusing. At least move the word to straddle the border so it's clearer that ancient India is what is being referred to. Or just move it all the way into what is modern India. - Taxman ^Talk 14:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I've cleaned up the lead by moving the references and expanding it a bit. Other than that, what one or two-sentence paragraphs are you referring to? ♠ SG →Talk 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
    • The lead is better, the map is still needed, but I know that might take a bit more time. The short paragraphs I'm referring to are: the second paragraph of the etymology section beginning "In modern", the first paragraph of the early life section beginning "Cyrus was born", the last paragraph of the Media section beginning "Cyrus' conquest", the last three paragraphs of the Babylonia section, and the last paragraph of the Cyrus Cylinder section. That statement could also use a stronger citation so you can remove the "reportedly" qualifier. It either is or it isn't, or at least some source reported it is. Incidentally, what does the last paragraph of the Media section ending "join forces against Cyrus and Empire" mean? - Taxman ^Talk 03:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose There are large portions that are not sourced. For example, in the section entitled ‘Politics and philosophy’ there are four paragraphs and only one citation. Sentences such as ‘Even today, Cyrus is regarded by many as one of the top 5 leaders in world history. . .’ must be clearly sourced.

As Taxman states there are too many single sentence paragraphs.

The section entitled ‘Background’ is really an etymology and not a background at all. This section could be merged with the subsequent section entitled ‘Dynastic history’ eg: After that sections’ first sentence. Raymond Palmer 15:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• I can't really merge that opening into "dynastic history" as they have little to do with each other. Though, I did split it off into a section called "Etymology". I also got rid of some POV additions and sourced more in the "Politics and philosophy" and "Cyrus Cylinder" sections. What do you think? ♠ SG →Talk 19:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• I have read it again carefully and, as in August, I Oppose.

1. "Cambyses is considered by Herodotus and Ctesias to be of humble origin, but they further note his marriage to Princess Mandane of Media, who was the daughter of Princess Aryenis of Lydia and Astyages, king of the Medes." First of all, Cambyses is not considered by Herodotus to be of humble origin: "but he (Astyages) gave her (Mandane) to a Persian named Cambyses, whom he found to be of a good descent and of a quiet disposition, counting him to be in station much below a Mede of middle rank." (Herodotu 1.107, Maculay's translation); "According to Herodotus (...) Cambyses (I) was not a king but a Persian of good family" (M Dandamaev, "Cambyses I" in Encyclopaedia Iranica). Secondly, Ctesias not even mention Mandane. Ctesias' account about Cyrus' origin have to be explainded somewhere. It is also important to at leats mention Xenophon' (Cyropaedia) version.
2. "Cyrus was born in either 576 BC or 590 BC." It is important to explain why some scholars give 576 and others give 590. In fact, I read more frecuently 600 instead of 590. The 600 BC date is due to the possible identification between Cyrus the Great's grandfather (Cyrus I) with Kurash of Parsumas mentioned in 653 BC by the Assyrians (if Cyrus I was a king in 653, his grandson must have been born around 600). This is defended by Dandamaev ("Cyrus the Great", in Encyclopedia Iranica), but Lendering says that "it is possible -but unlikely from a chronological point of view" [1], so he prefers 575. Although I desagree with Dandamaev, I find also unlikely 575 (Cyrus the Great begun his reign in 559, and then he must have been 16 years old!), so I'll look for more references. We could ask Lendering too, as he is working here.
3. The section "Rise and military campaigs: Media" is not complete. I would like to see what the Nabonidus Chronicle and the Sippar Cylinder say about it, as I stated before.
4. "The exact dates of the Lydian conquest are unknown, but it is generally suggested to have begun in 547 BC." Again: Why some give 547? Because they identifie the "Ly[...]" of the Nabonidus Chronicle with Lydia. Why others desagree? Because they don't. It is also related with the following: "According to Herodotus, Cyrus spared Croesus' ife and kept him as an advisor, but this account conflicts with some translations of the contemporary Nabonidus Chronicle, which interpret that the king of Lydia was slain." Some believe the Nabonidus Chronicle king is not the one of Lydia.
5. What are you trying to mean with "* Unconfirmed rulers, due to the Behistun Inscription.", bellow the genealogical tree?
6. I think you are missing a very important matter about Cyrus: his religiuos policies, documented in the Cyrus Cylinder. I see you have a Cyrus Cylinder section in "Legacy", but it also must be discussed apart from it, not only as a legacy. It also should be discussed his alleged Zoroastrianism.
7. Which were the capital cities of Cyrus the Great? We are not told, although Pasargadae is mentioned three times. The capital cities must be discussed.
8. When, a long time ago, I uploaded a section called "Sources" (now colled "Ancient sources") it was intented to be a sumary of some ancient sources I knew, but not necessarily used as references. It must be placed apart, and should be expanded. Some of the main sources, as Herodotus or the Nabonidus Chronicle, should be discussed too.
9. Don't you think the references are quite out of date? The only modern ones are the Encyclopaedia Iranica (but note that the article on Cyrus is not used, although is freely available on its website [2], Livius.org, Rollinger and Tolini -the last two being used just one time each other. There are many books and journal articles on Cyrus the Great. I've made a list of those that are available to me, I'm just about to pastle it in Cytus the Great talk page. You can use the bibliograhy of E Iranica's article as a reference too.
10. A minor point: I don't like the Homa griffin picture, because it doesn't belong to Cyrus' times. You should replace it with a one from Livius.org (for instance, from Pasargadae), since it now appears that they can be uploaded in Commons under GFDL licence [3]. Amizzoni 21:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• Early Classical Period? As far as i know, the term Classical is not usually used in Ancient Near East Historiography, it refers only to European Ancient History.Amizzoni 22:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• Another point: All Persian king used the title "Great King" (Olp Persian Vazraka) [4] [5] but only three of them are known in modern times as "the Great": Cyrus II, Darius I and occasionnally Xerxes I. Vazraka has nothing to do with the sufix "the Great".--Amizzoni 23:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• The map is wrong. Sardis must be placed a little to the NE, it wasn't a costal city. Ionia must be moved to the NW, as well as Media and Babylon, and Persia must be moved to the W.--Amizzoni 21:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Given that almost all primary and ancient sources regarding Cyrus are of Hellenic origin, I think Cyrus' name in Greek should be added next to Old Persian and before Farsi. Also any and all information derived from Xenophon's Cyropaedia oughta be treated as fiction.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.