Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Concerto delle donne

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[edit] Concerto delle donne

This article has just had an extremely thorough Peer review, and I believe that the issues which were brought up have been resolved, except the image which I am going to retrieve from the library tomorrow :) I think this is a very good article on a somewhat esoteric subject. I've tried to keep it streamlined and focused on important issues, and I think that's been accomplished, and hopefully the subject's larger musical importance is clear. I look forward to some constructive criticism, and hope that this can be brought through to be an FA. Mak (talk) 19:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC) (p.s. self-nom. are there any serious ones which aren't?)

• The article looks quite good, but there are a few strange points in the lead:
  • "late Renaissance court" - 1580 is rather after any endpoint of the Renaissance that I'm familiar with. Is there some particular source that suggests this?
  • "provoking imitations in the powerful northern courts of the Medici and Orsini" - both of these courts were south of Este, so I'm not quite sure what this is trying to say. (If it's meant to suggest that these courts were in Northern Italy, a source for ascribing the cities to that region would be nice.) Kirill Lokshin 19:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

In answer to your first point- in music the standard dates given for the Renaissance are 1400-1600. One possible source is the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians article on the Renaissance. Would you like an inline citation? This is considered standard in musical discourse. In answer to your second point - they are both in what I would consider northern Italy, but since I don't have a source and according to our articles Florence is in Central Italy, I guess I'll remove the northern bit. Thanks for your comments. Mak (talk) 19:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, ok; I didn't realize that musical history might have a different view of the Renaissance than some other fields. It's probably fine now; support from me, as this is an excellent article in all other respects. Kirill Lokshin 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support from a participant in the peer review. I'm hoping that my arduous experience with the Gregorian chant FA candidacy translated into a peer review that will make this article pass readily. Only two small points:

• There are a few red links. Can you make stubs for these?
• Some references end in periods (Chew.) while others don't (Chew). Can this be standardized? (I know, it's so nitpicky. I'm sorry.) Peirigill 22:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• I have already made many many stubs/articles in support of this article, but I think those two should also have stubs so I'll work on that. For the refs - do you have a preference? I have no problem with standardizing. Thanks very much for your support. Also, the facsimile may have to wait a little more, the library lost my request to get the book from New Jersey, or wherever they keep them. Thanks, Mak (talk) 23:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• I couldn't decipher WP:REF and WP:FOOTNOTE on this point. The gist seems to be that any reasonable footnote style is acceptable. Since you're the primary editor, you decide the reference style for the article by fiat. Unless some editor with expertise in footnote styles has an opinion, I'd say pick whichever you like best — a period at the end of every footnote, or at the end of none — and stick with it. Peirigill 00:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, Paolo Virchi and Ricciardo Amadino are now Blue, and I believe the inline citations are standardized now. Mak (talk) 00:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Great. Really nicely written. pschemp | talk 05:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support Really well done. I hope you don't mind, but I've added in some CSS to change the references section into three columns (won't be visible on Internet Explorer, though). If you don't like it, by all means, revert away! ♠ SG →Talk 12:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Great, I was actually wondering if there was a way to do that. Thanks, Mak (talk) 13:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Objecting to give the following comments some weight. Are there any graphic portrayals of the donne? I find the top image confusing in an article that does not deal with the Castello Estense (about which not even a stub has been produced). In order to go on the front page, the article will need a more relevant and descriptive image. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 15:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• There are no images, (to my knowledge, and I have looked), of the concerto delle donne. The only images of the people involved which I have been able to find are either the image of Alfonso d'Este which is already on his page, or are on Laurie Stras' website, with special thanks to a specific person. Although these are probably technically PD, I don't feel comfortable using them, since I think they are in a private collection, and everyone involved would know they were taken from that website without permission. Perhaps one of the title pages of the facsimiles would be a better lead image? Or would you prefer the image of Alfonso? I'm not attached to any of the images in the article, I'm really not a visual learner, so I welcome input. I'd just like to point out that Featured Articles are not necessarily placed on the main page, so comments on their suitability for the main page aren't necessarily relevant. -- User:Makemi with login problems

• p.s. if you're objecting because I haven't written an article on Castello Estense, I'd just like everyone to know that so far I have written 23 articles in support of this article. To expect me to write an article on architecture for a music FAC seems just a tad unreasonable. User:Makemi

I was wondering whether anyone was going to object to the lede image. I was hoping no one would complain. Since someone has, I have some thoughts:

• Per WP:WIAFA, images are NOT required: "including images is not a prerequisite for a featured article." We could remove all images and this article still would deserve FA status.
• That said, it's reasonable to request whether any pictures of the ladies are available. I don't believe any are. Every CD of this music that I've ever seen has not included an image of the ladies on its cover art. If such an image existed and were readily available, I'd have expected to find it there. None of my books on Renaissance music have an image of them either.
• The castle is not a strong lede image. It is, I believe, a relevant and acceptable image. The castle was their performance space. It's comparable to using a picture of the California State Senate building to illustrate an article on the California State Senate instead of a photo of the assembled senators. Any confusion about the nature of the image is cleared up by reading the caption. Moreover, the article does deal with the Estense castle: "There was even a rival group in Ferrara, in the very palace where the concerto delle donne performed." It is true that the Estense castle is not mentioned explicitly in the body of the article. I'll edit it into that sentence; Makemi, it wouldn't be a bad idea to mention the palace explicitly in the "Formation" or "Roster" sections. It doesn't need to be linked, and no stub needs to be created.
• However, since this is a music and not an architectural FAC, I'd recommend using the notated musical manuscript as the lede image. You can either attach the sound sample to the image in a userbox as was done for Gregorian chant, or you can leave the sound file down in the Music section and refer the reader to the lede image either in the text of the Music section or in the sound file's description.
• This article, whether displaying the castle, the frontispiece, or the notated manuscript as the lede image, would be perfectly suitable for the main page, and I look forward to seeing it there soon. Peirigill 11:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• I've changed the lede to include the facsimile and the music sample. It might need some tweaking, depending on your browser. I agree that the Castello Estense image was not very strong, I used it originally because I 1) Didn't have a facsimile and 2) Thought that the Castle was best at expressing something about the entire group, instead of an image just of the patron, which I thought would be misleading. I hope it's better now, thanks for the comments, Mak (talk) 19:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Reply. The point was not about the need for an image. The point was that misleading images must be avoided. I've removed my objection and will fully support once I've figured out how the page can be laid out in a way that allows it being comfortably viewed on 800x600 screens. Regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 23:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support (Contributor as copyeditor) Very good article. Here are some comments for improvement.MarkBuckles (talk) 06:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Musica secreta redirects to Musica reservata. Are they synonyms? There’s no reference to the term ‘’Musica secreta’’ on the reservata page.

• To the extent that anyone knows what musica reservata and musica secreta actually mean, yes, they're synonyms. Musica secreta is basically only used as a term in reference to the Ferrarese court, but it comes from the same mileu etc. as musica reservata and means the same thing. I've added it to the musica reservata article.

“The elite, hand-selected audience members favored with admission to performances by the concerto delle donne demanded diversions and entertainment beyond the pleasures of beautiful music alone” The word “demanded” strikes me as strange here, especially because the next sentence cites an audience member who complained of these diversions.

• Yes, well, it was more being expected to do the three things at once that annoyed Urbani I think. They were high rollers. They wanted to have a good time. Just good music wasn't going to satisfy these hedons. I did stare at it for a long time, but couldn't think of anything better.

“To maintain secrecy, the music, composed by Luzzaschi, was not published until after the Duke's death.” This line seems out of place as the third line of a section titled “Formation”.

• You're right, I've moved it. I was trying to highlight the secret/exclusive bit but it didn't work.

I’m confused by the section on style. There are two separate styles. Luzzaschi wrote both. Yet, then the first style is equated with Luzzaschi and the article begins to talk about his style as if his style ‘’is’’ the first “luxuriant” style. This is confusing since it says he also wrote in the seconda pratica. The section also doesn't explains what “luxuriant” means in this context.

• Yeah, needs more work.

(vocal virtuosity) “This skill became highly prized in the mid-sixteenth century, beginning with basses.” I don’t understand what the last clause (about basses) means. I’m also unsure of its relevance.

• I've tried to clarify this. The concerto is important in the rise of virtuosity, so I'm trying to give a super-nutshell history, saying it started out with basses, then eventually sopranos tenors and castrati became the favored virtuosic voices.

First big music section seems disorganized. It starts out discussing the composers who wrote pieces in the style, but also includes important stylistic information in strange places like the end of a paragraph (“This indicates both that male singers were probably not used after Brancaccio, and that instrumental accompaniments were a common and acceptable means of filling in the counterpoint.”) This is a big point and should be presented as such. And I think we should get the the discussion of dimunitions either earlier in the first section or in a separate section entirely. Much of this seems like it should be located under “Style”. MarkBuckles (talk) 06:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm still working on organisation. You're right there. Mak (talk) 21:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Good points. I'm working on it. it just sucks that my computer with all my notes died, and I had to return my main source :( </whining> Mak (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)