Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Austerlitz

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[edit] Battle of Austerlitz

Self-nomination In 1805, the morning of December 2nd was cold, bitter, and uncertain. At the heartland of Europe, two armies arrayed for what was to become a spectacular clash, one that might determine the very longevity of Napoleon's empire. By the end of the day, there could be no doubt. This article was reviewed by the Military History Peer Review and the regular peer review, being received warmly in both places. Thanks in advance for all suggestions.UberCryxic 16:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. Bravo, monsieur. But a few gnats - (i) How much was a franc worth? (I don't think franc says clearly enough.) (ii) Why did Sweden join the nascent Third Coalition, and what were the French political mistakes that induced Russia to join? (iii) Citation for "possessing the finest officer class in Europe" and "famed Tirailleurs"? (iv) There is a mixture of curly quotes (‘ ’, “ ”) and straight quotes (" ", ' '). I think the latter is preferred, but there should be consistency whatever. But overall, a tour de force. La Grande Armée will be next, no doubt. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
    ALoan, I've reworded the Tirailleurs and the officers comment; the former were famed and the French did have the best officer class in Europe, but specific quotes that say that are escaping me so far. I'm not sure what you mean by the quotes, so I definitely encourage you to go on and make the necessary changes. About the francs....let's see, in 1803 the US bought Louisiana for $15 million, which was 80 million francs. 1805 is not that far off, so a proportion would mean that 40 million francs in 1805 were equivalent to $7.5 million in the same year. However, I don't have a source that gives me the exact number, so I'll withold putting that in unless further reviewers agree with my method here.UberCryxic 17:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
    Ooops forgot; the explanation about Franco-Russian tensions is in the footnote, and I don't really think it's all that necessary to explain why Britain and Sweden entered into a mutual alliance. That's meant as a quick political background behind the conflict.UberCryxic 18:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
    No problem; thanks for responding - as I said, the above were only gnats. (i) Re the value of the franc - my question is really "is that a lot of money or not?" (The comparison with the amount paid for Louisiana is interesting, although I don't have much feel for the value of USD in 1805 versus 2006.) (ii) Thanks for the pointer to the footnote (Russia was annoyed at realignment in Germany, fair enough; but also concerned at French annexations in Italy?!). I'm still not sure what was in it for the Swedish, though, and Third Coalition does not say. (iii) Given the standard set by the rest of the article, I think these ought to be cited if they come back. (Firstly, what does "finest officer class" mean? Best dressed? Most effective? The British Army did pretty well in the Peninsular. And why Europe - are there better officers elsewhere - USA? India? China? Japan?. Secondly, Tirailleur does not mention these Tirailleurs, or even the later ones in the Young Guard, and La Grande Armée is less than flattering, saying that Tiraillerus were "Neither nimble enough nor good enough shots to be Voltigeurs ... They were often used as cannon and musket fodder, given dangerous tasks to spare the less expendable elements.") (iv) Um, there is a mixture of “curly” quotation marks and "straight" quotation marks. But I am still supporting. Well done, all. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
    Comment. If I'm not mistaken, Paul Kennedy's "The Rise and Fall of Great Powers" provides currency comparisons/values for several centuries back. Mikker (...) 00:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, Sweden was not an important player in the Third Coalition at all, the agreement being mentioned only to let people know when the Third Coalition came into being. It basically came down to Russia and Austria, and the reasons for the two have been given. Now, Russia would be concerned about any territorial arrangements in Europe, whether they happened to be in Northern Italy, Germany, or right in its backyard, the Balkans. The comment about the officers and the Tirailleurs were changed; it now reads "competent" officer class, just to be diplomatic, though those studying the era would easily recognize French officers as the best during this time period, by which I mean they were battle-hardened (the Revolutionary Wars had given them plenty of experience) and innovative, unconstrained by 18th century military dogma that plagued many enemy commanders. The performance of the British army in the Peninsular War was spectacular, but it'd be a stretch to even attempt comparisons between the British staff of that time and the French in 1805 (which is what the article refers to). At least that's what I think. Sooo...yes, in a sense I'm talking about effectiveness. Also, Europe was mentioned because that's where they primarily fought and made a mark. Carried to its logical conclusion, this was one of the greatest armies of all time, and the officers were some of the greatest of all time, so where do you draw the line? The Tirailleurs referred to the Tirailleurs du Po and the Corses, brave Italians that fought like lions throughout Napoleon's campaigns. No one would ever badmouth these particular men.UberCryxic 21:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. All of the issues raised during the peer review have been resolved, and this is now quite the excellent article. Kirill Lokshin 17:06, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Support--Worthy of being FAC...although I find stuff about battles boring, this one captured my interest for some time. Osbus 23:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Support for being such a nice, readable, sourced article. Good job! Staxringold 23:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Conditional Support. Great article, but there are a number of issues. Firstly, there are (fairly minor) NPOV problems. As you know, WP:NPOV requires viewpoints to be "fairly presented, but not asserted". Statements like "Charles was Austria's best field commander", "Napoleon's troops received careful and invaluable training for any possible military operation", "the Allied deployments were mistaken and poorly timed" etc. need to be attributed to someone to avoid violating NPOV. The section "One sharp blow and the war is over" suffers from some serious purple prose, and rewording it would be good. Furthermore, please reword "but certainly not a Carthaginian peace" (the general reader won't understand) and "carnivorous episode" (I have no idea what is meant). Also, please give the metric equivalents for "700-foot Santon hill and the 850-foot..." etc. I've fixed several other tiny (mainly style) problems myself. Mikker (...) 01:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help Mikker. I've made the following changes: the comments about Charles and the Allied deployments have been cited, as have some of the more controversial (I'll explain this in a little bit) comments in the sharp blow category, and the carthaginian and carnivorous phrases have been rewritten. On the sentence about Napoleon's troops: it doesn't need a citation at all, as no controversial claim is being made, nor am I saying something that someone could disagree with on a factual basis since the French drilled, trained for amphibious operations, and did probably more than they ever needed to for any conceivable early 19th century maneuver. Ok, now on the purple prose....presumably, you are mostly talking about the 'Sun of Austerlitz' comment and the description thereafter. This is a difficult situation to convey in words. If you were a French soldier going up the hill, it would've been a really spectacular moment, and most historians skip word diplomacy when talking about this part. Likewise, Kutuzov was amazed that suddenly thousands of French troops were suddenly appearing where he least wanted them to appear. After the first French charge was defeated, there really was desparation. St. Hilaire held divisional council to discuss options, and finally they decided on one last bayonet charge, which succeeded. But like I said, some of those comments have now been referenced. Take a look at them and tell me what you think. Thanks again.UberCryxic 03:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding NPOV here, but as I see it, potentially controversial views need to be cited (i.e. referenced) and attributed ("according to Joe Blogs..."). To make, for example, "Charles was Austria's best field commander" NPOV, you'll not only have to cite it but also say in the text who thinks this. I've re-read "One sharp blow and the war is over" and I see your point - I'd still prefer slightly more relaxed language, but if you think your version is better, I'll accept. Oh, and please do provide metric equivalents for length etc. Some of us have no idea how long a foot is! (See Panama canal for an example of how it's done if you're lost). Good luck... Mikker (...) 03:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The Boulougne comment is not even potentially controversial; if anyone well-versed in the period wanted to challenge it, I'd be stupified. The footnote of the Charles comment says who the author is, but even this isn't controversial; I know of no one who thinks Charles wasn't the greatest Austrian field commander during the period. I'll see what I can do about the language in that section. The metric conversions have now been given.UberCryxic 04:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, that's ok by me. I'm now supporting. Thanks for addressing my concerns and great job on the article!! Mikker (...) 20:50, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Support A well written article, The piece about Charles as Austria'a best commander is well covered in the article about Charles, which is linked 2-3 lines before hand at the start of the paragraph, maybe another link at this point would help Gnangarra 15:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Support - well structured and written. Ronline ✉ 06:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support, Bien Fait Young Guardsman! This old Grognard salutes your fine effort. One quibble, though, which will in no way effect my vote-"About 15 minutes later, Napoleon ordered the attack, adding, “One sharp blow and the war is over.” He then said "Let it commence with a roar of thunder!" And at this command a withering barrage by the Grande Batterie against the Pratzen Heights began in preparation for the main assault. Perhaps not as notable, the Brillant ‘Sun of Austerlitz’, while it warmed the French's backs, was also in the Coalitions' eyes, further hampering their efforts to orgainze an effective defense. You might want to mention these. But outstanding job irregardless!--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
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