User talk:Faustian

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[edit] Welcome

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  --Irpen 18:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kiev Offensive

I think you raise some very good points on the talk page. Please, don't hesitate to be bold and add more content into the artice itself. It is a godo idea to reference every single fact with the source (i.e. [Subtelny, 2001] or [Babel, year]), especially if there are disputed by some editors. Referenced addition is much harder to remove - as the other side has to prove it is either irrelevant or provide sources showing that other sources are doubtful.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Any anon should be able to help, but the quickest way to get attention of somebody would probably be Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on a page. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from further editing.

I understand that edit-warring against different IP-users pushing strong POV edits can be frustrating, please obey the 3 revert rule. I have semiprotected Ukrainian Insurgent Army article, so there should be less sock-puppeting now abakharev 23:21, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the semi-protection. I would like to point out, however, that my reverts were made against a vandal to the article. regards Faustian 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allow me

I, Irpen, hereby belatedly give you this Exceptional Newcomer Award for your clever edits and comments, particularly, for your contribution towards the Ukraine related articles. While we at times disagreed, and no doubt will again :), it is pleasant to deal with good faith and well-informed editors whose contributions are useful for the Wikipedia. --Irpen 07:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I, Irpen, hereby belatedly give you this Exceptional Newcomer Award for your clever edits and comments, particularly, for your contribution towards the Ukraine related articles. While we at times disagreed, and no doubt will again :), it is pleasant to deal with good faith and well-informed editors whose contributions are useful for the Wikipedia. --Irpen 07:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Although my contributions were made during a lull at work and may be sparse for a while... Faustian 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I, Piotrus, hereby second Irpen and give you another Exceptional Newcomer Award for the very same reasons. Your contributions are appreciated by many and we hope it is just the begining of your adventure with Wikipedia.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I, Piotrus, hereby second Irpen and give you another Exceptional Newcomer Award for the very same reasons. Your contributions are appreciated by many and we hope it is just the begining of your adventure with Wikipedia.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massacres of Poles in Volhynia

Hi, thanks for explanding on the background of the events in the article. One thing I find slightly disturbing, however, that is the sentence stating that "Ukrainian libraries and reading rooms were burned down by Polish mobs". Was it a common practice or was it incidental ? Also, regarding the Orthodox churches being destroyed, who did this ? Was it Polish administration ? or Catholic Church ? or just Polish people ? Thanks. --Lysytalk 17:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how common the practice was. It was common enough that Subtelny in his book referred specifically to cultural institutions, while elsewhere I have heard of this happening to libraries and reading rooms. A book at home (I am now at work) contains specific figures on churches and schools and maybe libraries also. The local Polish adminsitration (often acting against the wishes of Pilsudski's central government) was trying to "Polonise" the place and encouraged local Polish hooligans to prevent Ukrainian teachers and activists from teaching peasants how to read and write in Ukrainian. From the Polish side, they may have felt with some justification that the reading rooms and libraries were sources of anti-Polish propaganda. Of course, there was a cycle there in which Polish oppression played a major role in increasing anti-Polish ideas. regards Faustian 17:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right of course. I'd only appreciate if you could double check (when you have the time) whether destroying churches or libraries were just individual incidents or not. I susupect (or hope?) that there's not been a common practice of destroying Ukraininan libraries. Or maybe they were just closed down ? Anyway, it's good to have this explained, but we need to be careful not to generalise too easily. --Lysytalk 17:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll check the other book tomorrow (I didn't bring my entire library to work). Subtelny's book, in front of me, states "...the Polish government insisted on the use of Polish in church services and began a campaign, accompanied by the widespread destruction of Orthodox churches, to convert the Orthodox to Catholicism." (pg. 441). "When Polish mobs destroyed Ukrainian cultural institutions, they often did so in secret collusion with local Polish officials" (pg. 432). The number of Ukrainian schools in Volhynia was reduced from 440 to 8 (pg. 439). Hmm..actually he includes the figures for the churches destroyed. I'll include it in the article. Faustian 18:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Предлагаю мировую

I think we got of on the wrong foot with each other on Zaporozhian Host. Anyway I wanted to thank you for your NPOVing of History of Christianity in Ukraine. I think this article has great potential to reach FA status. It needs a few more sections on Russian Empire times, as well as Second World War times. Also the Old Believers and Roman Catholic sections need to be expanded. Finally all of this needs to be imaged and consicely referenced, and then have a preview. Seeing your enthusiasm there I think we WILL be able to achieve this. Btw what is your status on Metro? (I am asking because...) --Kuban Cossack 23:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The metro article looks wonderful. I am not an expert on that , of course, though I know Moscow's downtown system - the best metro system in the world - like the back of my hand. I apologize if my tone ever sounded harsh and respect the fact that although our points of views differ (significantly) you have a lot of knowledge to offer. regards Faustian 13:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well basically me and User:DDima are to build a whole portal (hopefully) on all ex-USSR transport systems, feel free to join in. If you have a digital camera...and happen to be passing one of those cities, don't waste time and get shooting. --Kuban Cossack 14:33, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Petliura and elections, revisited

Could you comment at Talk:Kiev_Offensive#Ukrainian_loyalties? You know much more about this issue then me.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've made the comments in the discussion section. Regards, Faustian 13:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Tnx for your continuing efforts to NPOV the KO article. Perhaps you could try your hand at PSW article too, where we have another set of controversies involving Ukrainian participation?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  20:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Christianity in Ukraine

You have an e-mail, I want to send you something. --Kuban Cossack 11:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my e-mail address: faustian17@hotmail.com. Looking forward to receiving the e-mail. regards Faustian 13:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


Faustian,

dlaczego ty jesteś zainteresowany tym żeby z bandytów i siepaczy z UPA robić bohaterów ? 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I am interested primarily for purposes of historical accuracy - I have been quite clear and open about the evil acts committed by some UPA units but this does not excuse exagerations or innacuracies. During the war, most of my relatives who fought were officers in the Polish, German or Soviet militaries. The only exception was my father's cousin, the daughter of a Lwow university professor and member of the Polish noble family de Nalecz, who died while serving in the ranks of UPA.Faustian 13:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

Re: [1]. Army numbers of Petlura: [2] - but I cannot find the 2000 number for the man joining Bolsheviks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  01:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right - 2,000 was Petlioura's, 4,000 were Galicians, some of whom then joined the Red Galician Army in order to sace themselves. My mistake. Faustian 03:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do provide full citations. If books, page numbers, if Encyclopedia's, the article's name. TIA, --Irpen 20:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I try to do that, in that case I was only a bit sloppy because Subtelny mentioned the 4,000 Galician soldiers in the same or next sentence as 2,000 Petliura's soldiers. Faustian 20:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That one is settled. I mean when you refer to the Enc. Ukr., give the article name every time. Also, Petrushevych did not just go to exile. Petlyura dismissed him from Directoria first. You removed that info. --Irpen 20:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the info stating that he was expelled. My sources all indicated that he left voluntarily.
On a separate account, when using sources we should keep in mind their strengths and weaknesses. Usually, sources like Subtelny and Margosci are of high regard. The Kubiyovych's EU is a somewhat different story due to the complications with the neutrallity of its main editor (see the talk page of his article for more). We can generally trust the hard facts he cites, such as dates and numbers, because he is unquestionably a serious academic. At the same time, his interpretations should be taken with a grain of salt as he was not exactly an unbiased figure in Ukrainian history. I am not suggesting that his works are unusable. Even the Soviet Encyclopedias are usable to a some degree. All I am saying that we should be more careful when using Kubiyovych, comparing to using modern respected western scholars who write on Ukrainian history such as Subtelny, Magosci and Wilson. --Irpen 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. However your comparison in the discussuion section of the 14th Waffen SS Galicia Division to NKVD battalions is unfair (if Kubiyovych was involved in organizing police battalions or such, it would have been a different story). I am aware of how the 14th Waffen-SS is perceived among ex-Soviet people. The reality is that it was not much different than Polish or Ukrainian legions within the German or Austrian militaries prior to World War I, Polish volunteers in Napoleon's army, etc. His involvement proves that he was a historical player rather than a detached observer, which is an important consideration as you rightly observe, and his opinions should be viewed carefully. But any controversy is about his actions during the war seem to be more about his detractors' falling prey to false information.Faustian 23:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That "any controversy is about his actions during the war seem to be more about his detractors' falling prey to false information" is just your POV to which you are entitled of course. The problem, howver, is more global than Kubiyovych not being neutral to the WW2 events because he was involved in them. It is important to remember Kubiyovych's personal views were strongly anti-Soviet and, likely, anti-Russian as well. He always was and remains an iconic figure of the Ukrainian Nationalist community. At the same time, his instincts of a real academic, were strong enough so that we should not disqualify his work. We should just use it carefully. Dates and numbers are 100% usable. Opinions and conclusions should be separated from them. This does not apply to Subtelny and Magosci who are western mainstream scholars with none of personal involvement in the anti-Soviet and anti-Russian movement, also professor of respected universities.
I will leave the discussion about SS-Galicia aside for now.
Please add article names when you cite Kubiyobych's encyclopedia. --Irpen 23:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
In terms of Kubiyovych's anti-Sovietism - it should no more disqualify him as a scholar's anti-Nazism shoyuld disqualify him for scholarship involving Nazis. Certainly, if the scholar in question was personally involved in the struggle than one must be careful, but not because of his distaste for the enemy. On the other hand, his personal involvement in the Ukrainian Galician Army and later also make him a rich source of information, having witnessed those events first-hand. There frankly appeared to be more bias in for example the citations from Debo (in particualr, labelling the Ukrainian participation in the Kiev offensive as insignifiant contradicts facts provided by numerous other historians such as Subtleny) than in Kubiyovych's work.
About the hostility towards SS-Galician, I was referring to your correct statement about the general ex-Soviet Ukrainian population's hostile attitude towards the Divison, which is rooted in the ignorance about it learned when growing up in the USSR. Just as most Americans now have a different judgment of Native Americans who resisted European settlement and killed Custer, hiopefully eventually people from Eastern Ukraine will have a more realistic attitude towards UPA or SS-Galician. Faustian 03:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Honestely do you really think people will change their attitude towards those who were butchering their grandparents and collaborating with Nazis? Nothing can take away the pride of the young in their grandparents, those Red Army soldiers who did a holly deed in wiping fascism of the face of the earth, and all the filth that went with it. I doubt in 100 years the attitude will change at all. There is no such thing as a more "realistic" attitude towards murderers and killers. --Kuban Cossack 11:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The words above do not apply to either UPA or SS-Galizien. They are spoken from ignorance. Soviet people have no more reason to hate SS-Galizien or UPA than western Ukrainian people to hate regular Red Army soldiers. Poles have more gripes against UPA, but even there attitudes seem to be changing, just as most modern American think differently about the Indian "savages" who once wiped out settlers (jncluding children).Faustian

Ok, let's save this for relevant article's talk pages but for now please add the names of the articles in EncUkr to which your references point. --Irpen 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide citations for requests about Ukrainian numbers in PSW? Otherwise we'll have to remove the information.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy New Year!

Happy New Year! (Ukrainian: З Новим Роком!, Russian: С Новым Годом!). I wish you in 2007 to be spared of the real life troubles so that you will continue to care about Wikipedia. We will all make it a better encyclopedia! I also wish things here run smoothly enough to have our involvement in Wikipedia space at minimum, so that we can spend more time at Main. --Irpen
Happy New Year! (Ukrainian: З Новим Роком!, Russian: С Новым Годом!). I wish you in 2007 to be spared of the real life troubles so that you will continue to care about Wikipedia. We will all make it a better encyclopedia! I also wish things here run smoothly enough to have our involvement in Wikipedia space at minimum, so that we can spend more time at Main. --Irpen


Thank you Irpen! Z Novym Godom!!!Faustian 20:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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