Talk:Fate/stay night

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Archives: 1, 2

Contents 1 Masters and Servants 2 Realta Nua? 3 Fate/Stay Night PS2 Release 4 Terminology Stuff 5 Citing Sources 6 Template Change 7 Additional Tables 8 Episode Citations 9 Abilities Sections for Servants 10 Music Track Listing 11 Genre 12 GA candidate 13 Good article on hold 14 Good article 15 Revert to previous poor version? 16 Plot section 17 Go Fetch 18 Spoilers in the overview text 19 Fuyuki City is Kobe? 20 Edits unable to apply to the page

[edit] Masters and Servants

I know it's a really big spoiler to mention who is a master, but I was thinking that the section might look better if it was seperated into "Master" and "Servant" categories rather than "Main Characters" and "Minor Characters." If you think this is too much of a spoiler to seperate like that, please let me know. I won't touch anything until someone gives me thumbs up. Mirioki 5:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Broken into Main characters, Secondary characters, and Minor characters, as there are some people out there who fit neither, and some minor characters get more screen time than some Servants.--み使い Mitsukai 15:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

there are also those who are in both categories Shinigami Josh 04:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

why is shinji in the "main character" section and sakura in the "supporting character" section? it doesn't make sense unless this article is entirely dedicated to the anime and not the fate story/universe as a whole Ricerocket 01:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Realta Nua?

What is this? [1] --Raijinili 22:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

PS2 version of F/sn. Comes out on December 29th. No h. Fully voiced. Moogy^(talk) 01:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Why isn't the name up on the page? --Raijinili 17:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It is now. Moogy^(talk) 14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fate/Stay Night PS2 Release

Ive looked at most english sites and even the PS2 website itself, but I didn't find any mention of the game.

According to the article here, it is supposed to be out by 2006.

I haven't been to Japanese language sites so I don't know if they are mention there...

Are they really releasing a game on the PS 2 console? 134.117.166.74 06:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The official website is linked above and here's the amazon.co.jp listing: [2]. -Seventh Holy Scripture 07:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, okay thank you very much! Can't read Japanese script but at least I know. 134.117.166.74 19:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's been delayed to 2007... Moogy^(talk) 14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology Stuff

Hey, everyone, it's been a while. Anyway, I was going to ask that we come to a consensus on some minor stuff: the first is History/Past as terms sections for describing the experiences of certain characters. I think "history" would be best for Servants, and "Past" for normal humans. Regarding terminolgy as well; spell names, like Gand and Reinforcement, should be italicized, and we should also agree on which terminology, that is, Imaging or Tracing, we should agree on for Shirou's skills. Terek 04:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Tracing seems to be the best choice in my opinion. It is the most commonly used term and the most widespread to date, not to mention Imaging has a few issues:

1) Nobody has still made up their minds about it being Imaging or Imagining

2) The term itself causes confusion because people know Tracing already and eventually think the two are separate things.

3) It causes people to misinterpret what the whole process really is and makes them think Shirou can just "imagine" whatever he wants and make it appear.

As for History/Past and italics, that's perfect for me. Ephyon 12:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing Sources

I'm of the impression that Wikipedia doesn't like original research, and frankly much of the stuff here was taken from other Wikipedia articles or the fansites Fuyuki Wiki + The Moonlit World. How exactly do we cite our sources with fansites? I originally had citations for Archer in that manner for Fuyuki Wiki but then I was told by a fellow editor that's not permitted, so I'm not sure what to do. For now, I've just left an external links section at the bottom of certain pages with pertinent information related to what is brought up in the articles. Typically, The Moonlit World works for character biographies and Fuyuki Wiki for specific game parameters. Terek 04:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Many things probably cannot be cited accurately in accordance with Wikipedia's rules. You and I both know that The Moonlit World and Fuyuki are accurate, but there's nothing to corroborate them for Wikipedia, unfortunately... Unless, of course, you could actually find the magazine articles/fanbook passages that they translate, and reference them instead. I believe that referencing the information with the original Japanese text by Nasu would work. Perhaps I'll try to find some of the original material later... In the meantime, I've been adding references that are covered by TYPE-MOON's official sites, such as release dates and such. Oh yes, another nice thing to have would be a citation for F/sn's sales numbers/popularity... I'll work on finding that, as well. Moogy^(talk) 14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template Change

Regarding the template, I changed it since it was quite bulky and was cuttering up the bottom of pages a bit, especially the main page. The current one is long and is much better to look at; regarding the colour scheme, it's an old one I used and it's not Wikipedia standard, but I noticed a lot of articles from One Piece to the University of Southern California have "custom" looking templates, so I thought I'd add a touch of originality for FSN, since it's one of the few anime to actually *have* a tempalate (and the only visual novel), let alone a custom one.

I'm debating with myself, though, as to whether or not I should include Fate/Fake in the template as well. I noticed there was an article to it when I checked the "category" section for FSN. Do you lot think we should add it? Terek 06:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, Ok, I saw the the little edit war on the template page. Frankly I liked this version better. It is a little big, but it is fairly well organised and it's easy on the eye. To avoid spoilers completely, we could plug Gil down like with Sakura in Other if needed. I'd add Bazett and Caren under Other and Avenger either under Servants (My preference) or Other, since making that much of a distinction between Stay/Night and Ataraxia seems pretty pointless.

The version present at the bottom of the discussion page is smaller, but presenting Sakura, Kotomine and Soken as Masters right off the bat is a bit too much in regards to spoilers.

As for present version, while it does serve a certain purpose and there is a bit of organisation in the order in which they are mentioned, it looks a bit too randomised and clunky.

Anyway, that's my input on it. If we can't agree, I can suggest a voting on the issue. I mean, there would be like three votes in total considering how many people concern themselves with these articles, but it would be better than an eternal stalemate. Ephyon 22:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think Fatal/Fake should be on there. For one, it's not an official TYPE-MOON product, unlike Melty Blood. In addition, its article is terrible. Moogy^(talk) 22:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I should explain some issues first before delving further into the template debate. According to TYPE-MOON's page for [Realta Nua] (which I based the template I provided on), TM considers listing Shirou, Rin, and Ilya as Masters to be non-spoiler. In the "other Gilgamesh + Zouken aren't even listed, so their very presence is some type of spoiler. At that, Shinji is marked as "other".

Now, since this FSN article is meant to be comprehensive, there's no way we could hide the fact that three Matou family members have no relation to the Holy Grail War, or that a guy with a name like "Gilgamesh" isn't a Servant. "Golden Servant" isn't a canon name, so we can't use that; as such, there are some spoilers we can't avoid, so I opted for the low-spoiler route that we have on the main page. So, this is why the template has the placements as they are.

At that, Caren and Bazette were removed since they are *not* from Fate/stay night! They're from hollow/ataraxia, and while relevant to the FSN story they were added ex-post facto, and therefore can't be included in the FSN template or the main page. The same goes for Avenger, who was merely "Angra Mainyu" in FSN and wasn't even directly addressed, he was just "pollution" in the grail.

Finally, regarding colours + dimensions. I've been told by some other editors on messageboards that width is preferred over depth, that is, wider templates are better than taller ones. This holds true on message boards as well; provided the frames aren't distorted, a long template works fine; check out what I did for the Servant Status in the Servant pages. At that, regarding the colour scheme, that's just one I whipped up; granted, some work did go into comparing the colours with other templates and looking for colours that complemented one another, but if you lot don't like 'em that's fine with me provided the format is preserved. I just thought that since a large number of "complete" templates have custom colours, and our very own "TYPE-MOON" template uses a mix of dark colours, FSN should distinguish itself from all the other articles. After all, the goal of all our work is not just to promote FSN, it's to produce an "A" rated anime article, of which there are only a handful and are not nearly as large, comprehensive, or interesting as FSN. Terek 04:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Tables

How do I add extra tables to certain sections? Terek 06:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I think I've got it. Terek 08:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Episode Citations

I noticed other articles are mentioning specific episodes in anime where something was introduced; while this would be difficult to accomplish for the game-related FSN material (because this article is oriented primarily toward the game), should we do this on the main and subpages? Terek 23:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the F/sn game is divided into days. I believe there are 15 days in each path, but don't quote me on that. You could probably say something like "Fate route, day 7," if you wanted to reference like that. Or hell, use an anime episode. Moogy^(talk) 00:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abilities Sections for Servants

On an additional note, I feel we should start adding abilities sections for Servants, but they need to differ from the Noble Phantasm format since we can't put up images to condense the paragraphs of the descriptions, such that they look like poorly-constructed sentences stretched across a screen. My proposal is to include ranking specifics in the table information, but elaborate in paragraph form in the abilities section akin to what we have for Rin and Shirou. I'll write one up for Archer when I get home. Terek 23:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, all; I've finished the abilities section for Archer, and I'm proud to say that's the first *completed* article for the Servants. I'd ask all of you to follow that model for the other ones as well; I listed all the Servant attributes in the status tables, while elaborating in the abilities section. "role" describes what said Servants did in Fate/stay night, while true identity is their history. I think I'll be working on Gilgamesh next; what I really regret from not doing earlier this year was finishing Lancer and Berserker's biographies, since I did a ton of research and its all gone to waste since I deleted everything (hah). Terek 04:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music Track Listing

I've got the FSN anime music track and I want to include that info on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure about how I should go around doing that. Suggestions? Terek 06:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You could try to create an article about the album as such articles like Kanon soundtracks, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni soundtracks or Ouran High School Host Club soundtracks to name a few. Just make sure you include the proper infobox for the album.--(十八|talk) 06:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genre

We've got two genre criteria on the main infobox; one lists the elements of FSN's plot, that is, action/fantasy/seinen/drama, and the other what type of game FSN is, that is, visual novel/eroge. How do I change the name of the second "genre" to "type"? Terek 06:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA candidate

In recognition of the hard work by Juhachi and others, I've nom'd this article for GA status here. Moogy^(talk) 23:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article on hold

So what exactly is a good article? A good article usually has the following attributes:

1. It is well written. This article is definitely well-written. I wouldn't necessarily call it brilliant, but there is really nothing that definitely needs to be changed. However, the lead section needs to be rewritten. It says almost nothing about what the game is about. Please summarize the most important points of the article as stated in WP:LEAD.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. I don't doubt that it is. Since a lot of the article deals with story and characters, could you add the actual game to the references section? That way a bunch more of the article would be sourced. The sales and popularity sourcing is done well. I can't find any original research in the article. Good job.

3. It is broad in its coverage. All aspects of the game are covered well here, from reception to adaptations. Nice.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy. All points of view are presented here without being asserted. No instances of "Fate/stay night is the best thing ever!" or stuff like that.

5. It is stable. This article is stable.

6. It contains images where useful. The way this article uses images is good; the significant characters most definitely do need those illustrations. All of them are covered in fair use, as far as I can tell.

The article length is good. All the stuff that could be split into other articles has been split into other articles.

Just address the lead section issues and I think this could make GA status. Voretus/talk 00:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The lead has been edited and is more concise. Does the lead need more work? --Squilibob 07:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's looking a lot better. :) Once the minimum two days expires it'll probably work out. Voretus/talk 03:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

Now that the lead is so much better, I am proud to promote Fate/stay night to good article status. The criteria have all been met very well. Keep up the good work, everyone. If you want to improve the article more, try expanding sections pertaining to the cultural influence of the game. Thanks. Voretus/talk 18:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revert to previous poor version?

I see that this page has been reverted back to it's previous, poorer version, which even goes as far to include an incomplete episode list; an episode list I myself created and put into the List of Fate/stay night episodes article, not to mention the only reason this article acheived GA status was largely inpart to the recent edits of the past week or so. I brought up the discussion here so that maybe I could reason with you before we revert it again to the GA status article it became.--(十八|talk) 07:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Poorer version? I honestly was going to raise complaints about recent vandalism when I noticed the huge numbers of hideous formating changes applied in my absence. And, of all people, you has the audacity to claim that you have made significant changes to this page, when nearly the whole article, from the main page to the Servant and Character pages, were done entirely by me, with ehe exception of the "Fate/stay night" scenario section, which is unsurprisingly totally plagiarised from The Moonlit World. Or, at least, a bastardized plagiarization at that. I did the research, I put in the time, and I went and asked questions and took criticisms for said questions. In comparison, the rest of you are just claim-jumpers.

What you fail to understand is that the format introduced earlier causes severe problems with paragraph alignments, an obvious oversight only individuals blinded by a lust for glory would miss; on personal computers that are not state-of-the-art, which just might include most of the online world, text lines from beneath paragraphs of exceptional length (such as Archer and Saber's introductory pages) extend undearneath the images I placed on the main page, which gives them the image of a character "d" turned ninety degrees clockwise. This is a major problem I spent the entire summer trying to work out,and the only solution I could find to it was to crop down the length of the main paragraphs (which cannot be done any further since they are as terse as possible), add
in the centre (which actually cause line jump issues), or to just use the format employed earlier, where we have a name, the kanji and romanji, a colon, and then the paragraph start.

Who cares about good article status as long as the main page actually looks good? Honestly, reduce it back to a "B" rank for all I care; I'll even petition against the GA status since I've been really lazy about citing the sources on the character pages and main page, even though I actually have all the information saved in Notepad on my secondary harddrive. Terek 07:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The revisions you made which really stood out to me were that the infobox was again incomplete, and the references weren't formatted correctly. On top of that, there was a ton of gramatical mistakes and other things I had to fix when I performed the massive cleanup near the end of 2006, one of them being the large episode guide which I not only altered into the standard format last June or so but had to fill it in 6 months later because no one did it in the mean time (of which I was very surprised about considering the popularity of this series). You can keep how it was formatted with the characters section and get rid of the Media section for all I care, just don't revert it without realizing all the positive changes I and others have made to it within the past week.--(十八|talk) 08:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I apologise for that, for many of those revisions were accidental and I would have caught them on my periodic run-throughs of the article to adjust for changes made since my last revision, but I was boggled down by the edit conflicts, a poor internet connection and talk with the fellow from earlier. This problem primarily stemmed from an incoherence with the comparison revision draft feature; late last year, I notifed incongruencies with what I was looking on the main page and what was in a previous edit. Such may have been due to the stack not fully being registered by Wikipedia, but the same problem occured today and I took a pro-active countermeasure because I couldn't "preview" the comparisons to determine what had actually been altered to cause the bottom-sentence line text warping that I despise so adamantly. In the coming days (likely tomorrow morning or later in the week) I'll put up a proper format for the Main character/Supporting character/Minor character simmilar to what was put up originally, since it is doubtful that format contradicts with the GA status and it's much easier to navigate and looks less disgusting because of sentence warps.

Additionally, as mentioned earlier, I left a message for the gentleman earlier who upped the ranking to try and revoke it temporarily, since apparently the push to get the GA status inspired a horde of recent edits. The primary problem is that we are as of yet unsourced for "proper" material; Wikipedia mandates sources for information that would be deemed "uncommon" for people to know, and arguably the point of Wikipedia is to provide information because an individual does not know about a subject. This would entail citing everything, but typical editorial styles have shown trends of only highlighting character traits and the like.

As such, while I cannot access my Notepad from here, vigilant individuals with a touch of time on their hands (not me; school has resumed session where I live) should browse the "Fate" translation sections at [3] and use citations in the manner as follows (insert <> for []): [ref]Nasu, Kinoko. (2004). Fate/stay night visual novel, Day XX[/ref]. The days available for browsing thus far are only one through eleven, not including the prologue. 71.9.137.37 10:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I still believe this is a good article, as much as I gave it credit for. The GA status is not for the whole topic; it's for this article only. You seem to have problems with the way the scenarios are written and sourced (forgive me if this is a misinterpretation). The scenario information isn't included in this article. It has been split into a separate article. When I looked through the article while contemplating GA, I found that everything that needed to be sourced was sourced, the prose was well written, and the entire thing was very polished. I just looked through it again and came to the same conclusion. Please understand that although you may have written a bunch of the article, it doesn't belong to you, and the changes that I've seen have pretty much been for the better. Voretus/talk 20:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plot section

The Plot section needs to be more clearly defined. Isn't this just everything that's stated in the prologue? It's not really a "plot" per say. Also, it needs to be mentioned somewhere how the game has 40 different endings. Creating a gameplay section would be nice.--SeizureDog 22:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll do somethinig about it after I fiddle with the formatting; the article's been quite a mess since I last came about. And will SOMEONE please add abilities sections for all Servants not named Archer? I'll fill in the gaps but just get some stuff started already; doing the research for Lancer and Berserker's biographies is outrageously tedious. Terek 22:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Looked a bit into it, but I would disagree; the "plot" of the story is simply a battle between seven Masters and Servants for the Holy Grail; Shirou's own sub-plot varies from story to story, but the overall format of the scenarios is the same; all Servants get killed, the Holy Grail gets destroyed. Terek 22:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Go Fetch

Dear folks, please go out and locate the katakana for the various names on this website so that we can "fill in the blanks" for the name-titles. As of right now, I've got my hands tied with other projects and I cannot do the work, but it shouldn't be that difficult (?) if you have the original game and can highlight the text from, although I am not sure if that is possible. Terek 22:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers in the overview text

There should not be spoilers on the main page, or at least the spoilers should be minimum. Granted, we already have some spoilers, namely, listing Shinji as Rider's Master and Gilgamesh's true name, but those are relatively minor in comparison to other stuff like mentioning Tohsaka as Gilgamesh's original Master or Assassin's status as Caster's Servant.

As such, for the "opening" text of all Servant pages, merely use the paragraph on the main page in place of any different versions that might be spoiler-ish, followed up with a spoiler tag and then the information/abilities/Noble Phantasm/biography section. Terek 22:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fuyuki City is Kobe?

The Kobe article mentions that "Fate/stay night" takes place in Kobe though it is called Fuyuki City in the game/anime. However, this article doesn't mention such a thing, and I'm having a hard time finding citation for this claim. Is this true? If so, is there an English language site that mentions such? -- Exitmoose 03:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

There are no citations for Fate/stay night taking place in Kobe because it takes place in Fuyuki City. Please see these Google results, too! Voretus 17:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it seemed unlikely. I would have removed it on the spot, but I'm not familiar with the anime. Thanks for your help! -- Exitmoose 00:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone might have noticed a simmilarity between landmarks in Kobe and those seen in Fuyuki City; I believe something simmilar applies to the Suzumiya Haruhi series. Unless there's a website detailling comparisons (unlikely), removing the line item in question is probably the best course of action. 71.9.137.37 02:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits unable to apply to the page

I recently made a change in Fate/ Stay Night page's music section, but I notice that I am not able to see the change applied to the page after I log out. I don't think my change has been reverted back because there is no sign of that in the history log (my change still show up on the top of the history log). During the time I log in I am able to see the change applied, but after I log out the change I made didn't applied to the page. Wondering if I have edited the wrong version of the page or something like that. Any help will be appreciated, thanks! Liuzh 23:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

more information regarding this error: I notice that this version of fate stay night page seems to display my change almost all the time, but the regular version of fate stay night page doesn't (you can tell they are two different pages by looking at their URL), but for some reasons they share the same history log that label my changes. I am so confused now and any help will be appreciated, thanks! Liuzh 00:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Might I ask why you changed it to a list? Regular prose looks and flows better. As for your question: clear your cache, that should help. Voretus 05:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I do notice that after I refresh the page, my changes shows up. But then what about other people who is viewing the page for the first time? They won't be able to notice the change if they have to refresh it in order to view it. I am just wondering if I can do anything to fix this cache problem so that people can guarantee to see the newest changes.

Answer to your question on why I make it into a list:

• Many other anime articles in Wikipedia uses the same method to list the OP and ED.
• People who are looking for a particular album information can find it more effectively, instead of having to read through the entire paragraph to search for a single album.
• List is usually good for product listing, as well as character and episode listing.

Liuzh 00:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

To my understanding, since clearing the cache actually forces the page to rebuild from database (rather than using the in-between server's copy) one person clearing will fix the problem for everyone if it's a problem with the site itself. And if the problem is just with your computer, then it wasn't hitting anyone else anyway. --tjstrf talk 01:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)