Talk:Faramir

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[edit] Untitled

Blonde, anyway? I think blonde on an adult male looks ABNORMAL! By the way, does PETER JACKSON hate Faramir? Who would dislike Faramir anyhow? He's against war, sweet, and helpful (Well, he was nice to Frodo and Sam!), and I like that on a person.

Okay, I agree that Faramir was abused througout the movie series. But what Peter Jackson really tried to do was to tear him away from Eowyn so she'd like Aragorn (apparently).

In summary:

Eowyn + Aragorn = NO WAY HOZAY!

Eowyn + Faramir = YES!!!

Aragorn + Arwen = YES!!!

Hehhehheh...sorry. Well, and there is some rumor Sam and Faramir are the same age. NO WAY! SAM IS OLDER!

In summary:

Sam: age 39

Faramir: age 36

39 > 36

Hehehehe...I love anyone who is nice like Faramir. Besides, Tolkien probably intentioned for Faramir to be totally different from Boromir. Most of the time when Faramir was very little, his mother Finduilas cared for him, but Denethor hated Faramir (this has a little bit to do with Cinderella, I think, as Cinderella's stepmother hated her so much), and when Finduilas died, Boromir protected Faramir. And without Boromir, Denethor could have made Faramir do work all day and wear old torn-up clothes.

So you have it. Denethor was cruel to Faramir, and Boromir defended Faramir.

Okay. Well, here's a family tree.

        Mardil                Imrazor = Mithrellas 
           :                          :
        Turgon                        :
           |                          :
      Echtelion II                 Aglahad
           |                          |
           |                      Angelimar
           |                          |
           |                      Adrahil II
           |                          |
           |              -----------------------
           |              |           |         |
           |           Ivriniel       |      Imrahil
           |                          |         |
           |             --------------    -----------------------------
           |             |                 |         |         |       |
      Denethor II = Finduilas           Elphir  Erichion    Amthoros   |
                  |                        |                           |
                  |                     Alphros    ---------------------
                  |                                |                    
                  |                    Éomer = Lothiriel                      
            -------------------              |  
            |                 |              --------
          Boromir          Faramir = Éowyn          |
                                   |                |
                                Elboron          Elfwine
                                   |
                                Barahir

... right. Anyway, was Faramir actually the Steward of Gondor at anytime? The brief interlude between Denethor's death and Imrahil's appointment? Considering he was unconscious the entire time, I doubt it. Oberiko 18:54, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It was sort of a technicality. But Faramir was the one who passed over the crown to Aragorn, and he retained the office of Steward afterwards, although it returned to its earlier function (that of advisor to the King, although it was probably mostly an honorary title since Faramir didn't even live in Minas Tirith). --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:00, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Aragorn entered the city only as a Ranger of the North — not as the heir of Isildur. Thus Faramir technically reigned from the suicide of Denethor to Aragorn’s coronation (not that he had much choice in the matter). {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 21:23, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Faramir WAS the Steward of Gondor. As Aranel said, Faramir passed the Crown of Gondor to Aragorn, at this time Faramir says: "The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office." (LotR, The Return of the King, The Steward and the King) It is thus clear that the office of Ruling Steward was Faramir's from the moment of Denethor's death. However, as is noted Faramir was incapacitated for much of this time. 'True' authority was exercised by Gandalf and Aragorn, with Prince Imrahil in Faramir's stead: "the Lord of Dol Amroth shall rule the City until Faramir awakes". Upon his awakening, Faramir assumed the role of Steward, primarily for the purpose of preparing for the coronation of Aragorn.

It is interesting that at his coronation Aragorn replies: "That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs' as long as my line shall last." Appendix A (Annals of the Kings and Rulers) to the Lord of the Rings listed Denethor II as the "last of the Ruling Stewards, and was followed by his second son Faramir, Lord of Emyn Arnen, Steward to King Elessar, F.A. 82." As the death of Faramir's father and the crowning of King Elessar occurred in the year 3019 (of 3021) of the third age, and Faramir lived to the year 82 of the fourth age he held his stewardship for 84 years (assuming he did not pass it to his heir prior to his death). Therefore, although Faramir was (technically) Steward of Gondor before Aragorn's crowning as King Elessar, he was not considered among the ruling stewards.

As Anárion notes, subsequent to Aragorn's accession, Faramir became an advisor to the crown. However, his role as steward would have been more than ceremonial, still with responsibility for rule of the city/kingdom whilst the King was away (for instance when Aragorn travelled to Arnor to reestablish the northen kingdom). As for Faramir not even living in Minas Tirith, he was given "Ithilien to be his princedom", however he was to dwell within sight of Minas Tirith (in Emyn Arnen). Therefore, like Prince Imrahil, Faramir was given his own sub-territory of Gondor to officially reside in. This does not preclude having a greater than ceremonial participation in the ruling of the kingdom.

In closing, Master Samwise and Faramir ARE the same age. The Tale of Years (Appendix B) has them both born in the year 2983 of the third age.

BDB79 10:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible copyright violation

An anonymous user at 70.181.69.136 recently added some text to this article that appears to be taken from this site. This may be a violation of the site's copyright, unless the anon is the copyright holder. I've reverted it for now, and if the anon is the copyright holder he or she can restore the text. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations

Some of the quotations are from the books, some from the films. The differences should be noted. Savidan 23:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

That is noted. Not sure if the quotation format to note the books are correct though. If anyone does know, feel free to edit please! Mirlen 03:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Beards

"A minor change is that in the book, Faramir and his brother are dark-haired and lack beards, but in the movie, they have fair hair and are bearded."

The book doesn't explicitly say that Boromir and Faramir themselves are unbearded. This is probably an assumption based on the statement in Unfinished Tales that Men descended from Elves were beardless and the fact that Boromir and Faramir were descended from Imrazôr and Mithrellas through their mother Finduilas. But I've always wondered if Tolkien really meant that every single Man with any amount of Elvish ancestry, which would include Elendil, Isildur and Aragorn, was beardless. (Admittedly Imrazôr's marriage to Mithrellas was thousands of years more recent than Aragorn's Elven ancestry.)

Gildir 14:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Not all Elves are beardless: Círdan is specifically noted for being bearded, as was Nerdanel's father Mahtan. And Legolas' father Thranduilis also described as bearded in The Hobbit. Typically beards were a sign of extremely advanced age under Elves:
'Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII: 365-66 n. 61] was exceptional, being only early in his second.' VT 41 JRRT
An example of a young bearded Elf may be Beleg of Doriath, in Tolkien's painting "Taur-nu-Fuin". No assumption can be made for human descendants of Elves: the note in UT does state that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was denoted by the fact that he didn't have a beard, but this does not mean all descendants of Elves are beardless! -- Jordi·✆ 01:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
That painting has to be touched with a ten-foot pole, though. IIRC, Tolkien changed its "meaning" later towards depicting a scene in Fangorn forest. It's unclear whether he changed more than the meaning. Also, the figures are a pretty small part of the pic. While I myself used it to illustrate the notion that elvish swords are straight, I would be hard-pressed to draw conclusions as far as facial features are concerned. In any case, given elvish control over their body, it should be primarily an issue of whether an elf WANTS to have a beard. As for the quote on Nerdanel's father above, it also needs to be used with caution, a lot in the HoME are temporary notes. As for Imrahil's heritage, Tolkien goes to great length to stress that this is what people in Dol Amroth tell others of the heritage of their lords, but whether it is factual or not he leaves open. It could very well be folk tales. --OliverH 20:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Age and hate

Okay, I agree that Faramir was abused througout the movie series. But what Peter Jackson really tried to do was to tear him away from Eowyn so she'd like Aragorn (apparently).

In summary:

Eowyn + Aragorn = NO WAY HOZAY!

Eowyn + Faramir = YES!!!

Aragorn + Arwen = YES!!!

Peter Jackson does not hate Faramir. The issue was not whether he was likeable, but whether, in a film lacking any other demonstrations of the Ring's power, Faramir's seeming immunity to its power was believable or dramatically interesting. They didn't abuse him, they made him believable. He still let Frodo and Sam go, and acts in accordance with the book in the third film.

It had nothing to do with Eowyn's relationship with Aragorn. Need I remind you that both couples hook up the same way as in the book by the end of the third movie. Need I also remind you of Eowyn's obvious feelings for Aragorn in the book, which provoke her into following the Rohirrim into battle?

Hehhehheh...sorry. Well, and there is some rumor Sam and Faramir are the same age. NO WAY! SAM IS OLDER!

In summary:

Sam: age 39

Faramir: age 36

I don't know where you're getting your information. They ARE the same age.

From The Return of the King, Appendix B:

Year 2983: Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise.

Kenobifan 03:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rank

I have question. Does anyone know the difference between Captain of the White Tower and Captain-General/or Captain-General of the White Tower? Because Faramir inherits the title, Captain of the White Tower, after his brother's death—which from one source states that he now takes over command of Gondor's armies, but when I look up on Boromir's article on wikipedia, Captain of the White Tower is not the same thing as Captain-General of the White Tower, so I am rather confused. What is the difference? What is the position that Faramir inherits? —Mirlen 13:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

These ranks were not clearly defined by Tolkien that I know of, but I would guess that 'Captain of Gondor' was a rank held by a fairly important military leader (note that Eärnur was heir to the throne and so called when he led Gondor's forces against Angmar) while 'Captain-General' was reserved for the overall field-commander of all Gondor's armies. It is possible that the terms were synonymous, but Captain-General usually has other connotations and it doesn't seem likely that Faramir would have been 'promoted' to the position before Boromir's death was proven. Whether there was any distinction between 'Captain-General' and 'High Warden of the White Tower' is also unclear. --CBDunkerson 21:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too much info?

Mirlen, thanks for all the added stuff you put, but I think it has too much information on a charecter who didn't play a huge role in the Lord of the Rings books. We all love Faramir but Damn! I think we should prune/summarize some of the info. Ted87 18:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Haha, now that you've pointed it out, maybe you're right, Ted87 :P. I admit I can carried away with my favorite characters *blushes*. I'll try to resist my temptation and cut it down a bit...or maybe a lot :P. —Mirlen 22:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this really encyclopedic?

I have just come across this article, and many similar ones, after seeing the article on Tolkien reach featured status. This article about Faramir doesn't feel very encyclopedic to me, and in places is written in the style of biographies about historical people. The article also feels to me more like a summary of the character's story-arc, which is just a different way of doing a plot summary. I have no problem with encyclopedic articles about Tolkien and his works and his influence on fantasy and so on, but this sort of article doesn't seem to add much to the encyclopedia. Isn't there a Tolkien wiki for this kind of stuff? Carcharoth 16:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the article is currently a bit overboard. There has been some discussion (above) of cutting it back. There is a Tolkien based wiki and it might be a more 'fitting' place for some of this level of detail, but Wikipedia itself incorporates an equal (and in some cases greater) level of detail for many similar topics. I think material is often put here over the TolkienWiki because of the benefits of having a single source for info on all topics. Maybe a balance will eventually be found in how much detail should be in Wikipedia and then more precise stuff will migrate to the Tolkien wiki and similar sub-projects... but it is equally possible that Wikipedia will become an 'all inclusive' source. --CBDunkerson 17:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Yup, don't worry Carcharoth, Ted and I are working on to cut down the information. If you have any suggestions on how to cut it down, please feel free to share it. :) —Mirlen 19:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I corrected a typo in the lead quote, but not sure what else to suggest. I'll have a think about it. One thought I had was referencing the lead quote, but I'm not sure what standard is used here to reference the books. I'll pop that question back on the WikiProject page Carcharoth 23:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The issue is not level of detail per say but style. We can include as much detail as there is as long as its grounded in the books rather than fan fiction. I'd suggest—to get away from the "biography of a real person" style—organizing it by the books (i.e. sections titled "In the Similarion", "In the Two Towers", etc.). savidan(talk) (e@) 17:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faramir's Pic

Can we get a better picture of Faramir? You can barely see his face at all in the current one because of the shadow. Surely there's a better one. --::..SMI..:: 09:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Um. You do know Faramir is not real, right? All these artworks or film scenes are just based on the imagination of the artist, or the decision of a casting director. For a 'true' picture of Faramir, you need to read all the text from the books that describes his physical appearance. Carcharoth 13:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
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