Talk:Far right/Archive 3

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Hayek & libertarian claims about fascism

Where is the discussion? These are marginal POV views of a small group of libertarians See the discussion at [Fascism and ideology].--Cberlet 21:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Someone recently added to the article "Some scholars claim that fascism is not on the political right. F. A. Hayek, as well as a few others state that these parties are state controled collectivists, and therefore leftwing." If this is an accurate description of Hayek's views -- I haven't seen an actual cite where he says that fascism simply is left-wing, as against putting unusually strong emphasis on the left-wing influences on fascism that we all acknowledge -- than as far as I can see, all this shows is that either he chose to define the "left-right" axis in such an unusual way as to amount to Humpty Dumptyism, or that Hayek was one of those people who can't ever admit that people he (rightly) despises might, nonetheless, fall somewhere near him on the political spectrum. I can't think of a single case where bona fide 1920-1945 fascist parties ever allied with the left; the only time historically that I can think of a "red-brown" coalition is recently in former Soviet areas, and it seems to me that throws the "left" credentials of the Communists into far more doubt that the "right" credentials of the neo-fascists. I believe that this passage should be removed unless it is (1) accompanied by a clear citation and (2) clearly characterized as the view of a small minority of scholars, strongly rejected by most others. -- Jmabel | Talk

Sam Spade has been trying to insert his POV on this subject on other pages over a period of months. Unless he can produce some evidence to document his claim that his is a widely held view, I suggest we restore the text to a more reasonable order of text.--Cberlet 02:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't claim that this is my POV, I claim that it is hayek's. The only person I know here who is fond of inserting his POV regarding fascism into articles is our op-ed specialist, Chip Berlet.

Anyways, are you disputing the signifigance of Hayek, Libertarianism, or the American Right? My citations are as obvious (The Road to Serfdom, Hitler was a Socialist, fascism, etc...) as Cberlets bias regarding Fascism. The question is, where are yours? Where is your citation for "most scholars"? Anytime I hear "most _____", I become very suspicious of an Appeal to false authority. Sam Spade 02:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not an appeal to false authority. A review of the major scholars on fascism in the past 30 years (remember I work in a library) shows that Hayek's claims are marginal, at best. I do not deny they exist, but I place them in the proper perspective, as a minority viewpoint. Furthermore, as you well know, we have had this debate before on other pages, and I have written a substantial defense of the majority viewpoint now located at Fascism and ideology. Please don't pretend this is a new debate. As you are well aware, on the fascism page your attempts to hype your marginal POV were resisted by other editors; and your aggressive style finally forced me to request mediation over it: Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Archive_17/Cberlet_and_Sam_Spade. So please do not pretend this is something you just thought up.--Cberlet 22:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the lead, I will add it to my list of pages you have editorialised. I ask again, where is your citation for "most scholars"? Your claims to work in a library are the best example of appeal to false authority I've heard in ages, but lets focus on the basics. Do you have a citation for your claims? Sam Spade 22:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, as mentioned above: Fascism and ideology, but I don't have to (and it is impossible to) prove a negative, you need to demonstrate that reputable published authors who specialize in studying fascism have highlighted the work of Hayek. But if you check Griffin, Eatwell, Payne, and a score of other major books on fascism in the past 20 years you will see that Hayek is not a significant source for citation by major scholars of fascism. Hayek is marginal in the field, he is only a fawned-over demigod among libertarians.--Cberlet 00:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait, are you seriously attempting to cite a wikipedia article you yourself wrote 4 days ago??? Sam Spade 00:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I did a survey of major recent authors on fascism when you tried this gambit months ago on the [Fascism]] page where you first lost this debate. The Fascism and ideology page was carved out from the Fascism page a few days ago. It would really help if you actually bothered to do some research once in a while rather than just posting your own idiosyncratic opinions on an ad hoc stream-of-consciouness basis as if all the editors on Wikiepdia had nothing better to do than answer questions that would be obvious with two minutes of reading. Just a polite suggestion. Hope you are not offended.--Cberlet 02:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

And I'd appreciate it if you showed the respect to properly cite your sources, and insist on NPOV, despite your blatant bias. I am still waiting on your Wikipedia:Citations (hint, I have more where mine came from). Sam Spade 03:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I cited my sources in Fascism and ideology. You might try reading them.--Cberlet 03:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I have no interest in NPOVing yet another editorial you wrote at this juncture. What I would like is for you to provide some evidence that "most scholars" believe hayek, and his "nazis are socialists" POV are marginal, and should be treated as such on a page about the Far Right! Sam Spade 03:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Forgive me, it did not occur to me that you might suffer from a physical handicap that made it difficult for you to click on the link, Fascism and ideology. To make it easier to discuss this matter in a sensible way, I will paste in the material where I cite several authors who represent the mainstream in fascist studies in academia.

Fascism tends to be associated with the political right, but the appropriateness of this association is often contested. In one sense, fascism can be considered to be a new ideological development that transcends the right/left framework. At the same time, it does contain ideological elements usually associated with the right. These two facets can be seen in the following quote from Mussolini himself, writing in The Doctrine of Fascism: "Granted that the XIXth century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the XXth century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century."

Griffin, Eatwell, Laqueuer, and Weber are among the top scholars of fascism, and they are reluctant to call fascism simply a right-wing ideology. Yet in their lengthy discussions they observe that generally fascism and neofascism allies itself with right-wing or conservative forces on the basis of racial nationalism, hatred of the political left, or simple expediency.

Laqueuer: "But historical fascism was always a coalition between radical, populist ('fascist') elements and others gravitating toward the extreme Right" p. 223.

Eatwell talks about the need of fascism for "syncretic legitimation" which sometimes led it to forge alliances with "existing mainstream elites, who often sought to turn fascism to their own more conservative purposes." Eatwell also observes that "in most countries it tended to gather force in countries where the right was weak" p. 39.

Griffin also does not include right ideology in his "fascist minimum," but he has described Fascism as "Revolution from the Right" pp. 185-201.

Weber: "...their most common allies lay on the right, particularly on the radical authoritarian right, and Italian Fascism as a semi-coherent entity was partly defined by its merger with one of the most radical of all right authoritarian movements in Europe, the Italian Nationalist Association (ANI)." p. 8.

Thus according to these scholars, there are both left and right influences on fascism, and right-wing ideology should not be considered part of the "fascist minimum". However, they also show that in actual practice, there is a gravitation of fascism toward the political right.

I hope this makes it easier for you. Apologies for not realizing that you had a physical disability that made it difficult to click on a link; and all along I simply assumed that you just couldn't be bothered. I am too quick to judge people as aggressive, arrogant, lazy, and glib. Please accept my sincere apologies.--Cberlet 03:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Could any of these scholars in academia have a leftwing bias and/or be wrong. Just cause most say its true, don't make it true! Most scholars in academia are left wing. (Is my last statement a generalization, pov or biased, like your statement about all scholars believing fascism is rightwing and disagree with Hayek)- anonymous ex-commie

I think a case can and is made that Nazism isn't right-wing. Although Fascism, of the Italian or Francoist variety, is certainly not left-wing. I'd have to agree that thinking it is would be a minority opinion I've rarely read before. Fascism has few to no socialist elements and I don't think ever claimed to. Many of them were ex-socialist, but that doesn't mean much. Several people deemed "Neo-Conservatives" were once Trotskiyite, but that doesn't really make that movement left-wing. Although Hayek is something of a major figure on studies of totalitarianism so I imagine his view deserves mention.--T. Anthony 07:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It is complicated, and a variety of scholars across a range of politics debate many issues concerning fascism. It's just that Hayek's views on fascism as left wing are not considered very significant. I am not urging that the sentence on Hayek be deleted, just demoted. Most of the scholars I cited are centrist, and they are considered to be among the top scholars in the field. I can cite several leftist scholars of fascism who would see any claim that fascism is left wing as ludicrous. So I am trying to arrive at a fairr, NPOV, compromise outcome that is appropriate for an encyclopedia. Incidently, the page title: "Far-right" is a grammatical error, as it is in the adjectival form, and as such is proper for a dictionary, but not an encyclopedia. It should be somehting like "Far right ideology" or something like that.--Cberlet 13:33, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, but even if Hayek's views are marginal among scholars (although he has a following in economics) it seems like some voice must be given to the lowly blogger, journalist, voter, or activist. I personally haven't seen any polling data on usage for this term ("Do you believe that fascism or Nazism are left-wing or right wing ideologies?") but I have met in my own personal experience a considerable minority of people with the view you criticize. A simple "Some believe..." would satisfy, I think, and with all due respect, this entire controversy makes exceptionally little difference to a reader of this article who will probably already have his mind made up on the matter. Adam Faanes 18:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The wikipedia NPOV policy is clear, we cite sources, and allow the reader to make up their own mind. What we do not do is editorialise based on our assumptions of what "most scholars" may or may not think. Sam Spade 19:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

And yet Sam Spade has not cited any published material revealing that Hayek has a wide following among recognized scholars of fascism, and I have cited the leading scholars in the field making statements that reject Hayek's conclusions. Sam Spade has been renewing this argument on a regular basis on a variety of pages. In the long run he loses the debate, becasue the underluing research does not support his right-wing libertarian POV. The last edit was a complete distorion of the scholarship in this area. The main discussion is at Fascism and ideology. Let's just send people there.--Cberlet 03:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In my case I think I was thinking of Ludwig Von Mises who I think was important to the history of studying Fascism. I do think Nazism, even Neo-Nazism, doesn't entirely work as far-right. In least there is enough difficulties there that should be mentioned. I don't think it's left either, I think it's just its own odd form of insanity. If you look at some of the Nazi mysticism types though some of them have values that would generally be deemed Left. They do glorify war and racial hatred, but some of them also argue strongly for animal rights and socialism. If I can I might in least make some reference to difficulties there.

Nationalism or state socialism is not rightwing. It is socialism, because it requires supreme devotion to the state as supreme concern and focus of all citizens. The citizen serves the state and promotes the states interest. It is not the state promoting the concern, protection, interests and individual liberties of the citizens. It is anti-communism, because it allows capitalism and personal ownership of property or capital, as long as the companies and individuals do what the state tells them to do with the capital or property, like oscar Schindler. He snuck behind the Nazi's backs to help the Jews, so he wouldn't lose his property.

Socialism isn't just the state ownership of capital; it is the state control of all capital. If it were just the state ownership of all capital, then it would be Communism. They hated communists because the communists wanted to have the state own all capital. The National socialists just wanted to control everything, that way they wouldn't be responsible for all the upkeep of capital, they could have the companies and individuals do that. Plus, it is easier to play policeman(or macro-manage)over private owners[national socialism], than to try to fully control(micro-manage) every action of the people running state owned property[communism].

Read a dictionary!

Socialism is: n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or run by a centralized government that controls the economy.

State socialism: n. < stAt 'sO[sh]&"liz&m > : 1. An economic system in which the government owns most means of production but some degree of private capitalism is allowed.

- (Neutral nobody 05:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

Nazism can not easily be placed on the Left or Right IMO. The Nazis maintained several socialistic policies throughout so economically they had left-wing aspects. However they believed in a Darwinistic survival of the fittest so in several areas competitive market driven approaches survived. Added to that, political compass aside, there are non-economic aspects to a regime being deemed Right. The glorification of conquest, obedience, and the Volk is right-wing by most reasonable standards.--T. Anthony 08:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

And the page for this, and the discussion of this--after many, many, edit wars (including the active participation of Sam Spade)--is at Fascism and ideology. It is not appropriate to create a POV fork on this page just because Sam Spade is unhappy with the results.--Cberlet 13:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Boy, do you have an issue with Sam Spade, keep your personal hatred out of this. This has nothing to do with Sam Spade or your far left bias. He did not put it there. I did. I am a centrist and I think you guys (left and right) need to keep your personal politics out of Wikipedia. Cberlet, for example, has a personal issue with attacking anything right(He wrote an article about the mainstream right trying to bring facist thinking into the mainstream public-from a centrist piont of view-how ludicris), so his editing on wikipedia and objections against Facism being left wing are suspect. Keep your politics out of nuetral articles. The NPOV belongs on the Far-right article, because the issue is with this article, not Fascism and ideology. (added sig: Neutral nobody)

I'm not far-left or any kind of left. However I don't think Fascism is a left-wing movement. I think it also can be seen as right-wing in that traditionally the Right is nationalist, militarist, and Social Darwinist. Fascism generally glorified the state, conquest, and the strong defeating the weak. That said I don't think it entirely works as Right-wing either as even Cberlet's sources indicate. Also I keep thinking I'll edit "far-left" to be a bit less praising of it, but I don't want to make an article become disputed if I don't have to.--T. Anthony 14:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yikes! Hey Neutral nobody. some comments. I was objecting to this last entry by Sam Spade:

Several scholars indicate that there are difficulties with seeing fascism as simply or solely a right-wing ideology.(Griffin, Eatwell, Laqueuer, and Weber) F. A. Hayek, as well as a few others, go even further then that. They state that these parties are state controled collectivists, and therefore leftwing. The issue of Nazism being far-right or somewhat left is made complex by their history. Before the Night of the Long Knives several of the party's key figures were socialistic, for example the Strasser brothers and Ernst Röhm. These men were to the Left on economic issues and were not generally viewed as religiously or socially to the right either. (Rohm being actively homosexual).

Do you really think that was an NPOV entry? Have you checked the Fascism and ideology page? I created it and did the major edit. I moved much material off several pages, and included left, right, and centrist views--in detail. Just before your post I went there and added this text:

Some libertarian scholars such as F. A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises are noteworthy dissenters from the idea that fascism is a right-wing movement.

So I am biased? I cite the major centrist scholars of fascism and I am some left-wing crackpot? If I wanted to push POV I would also be citing the Marxist and leftist scholars of fascism, which I do when I write scholarly journal articles and book chapters. Check out the theories of Dave Renton, for example.[1] Here on Wiki I edit with NPOV in mind. I go out of my way to include right-wing libertarian views in an article and according to you I have a vendetta against the right? --Cberlet 14:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry you may be nuetral on wikipedia(and i'm not convinced of that yet), but your non-wiki-articles are biased. ExampleBerlet article You state orginizations that are hate groups, but you also tie in groups that are not 'hard right', as you call them. I have friends who are hard right who are not bigots. There are many hard right groups that are not racists. I'm not nessicarily saying there is intentional bias, sometimes people's bias seeps in, I would consider that. It is hard to believe it isn't there in some form, strong beliefs in anything guide us in everything we do. (Neutral nobody 15:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

Hmm some of that paragraph was by me, maybe all of it. I figured indicating "a few go further" essentially states this is a minority view. And a slightly further out one at that.(I do think calling Fascism left-wing is a bit out there. I think Fascism is just nutty, I'm not sure it fits any traditional left/right axis) And indicating the Strassers had left-wing aspects is accurate. This is stated by people who hate any equating of Nazism with socialism.--T. Anthony 15:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Fascism/nazism is rigth-wing and far-right. The problem is that many people (specially in US) forget that "right-wing" has nothing to do with "free-market", "limited government", etc.

I'm not even patriotic, but I find that condescending. I don't consider libertarianism or being pro-Capitalist to be necessarily right-wing.--T. Anthony 15:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The original meaning of "right-wing" is the supporters of monarchy, established church and hereditary aristocracy.

This would work somewhat with Mussolini. He did keep Victor Emmanuel III in power and made a Concordant with the Vatican. Although even there his movement had an element of anti-clericalism, he disbanded Catholic Action against Papal objection, and gave the king only a minimal role.

Yes, fascism don't defend these principles, but share many ideias in common with traditionalists conservatives:

• Authoritarian government

Exists both on the left and right. For that matter there is in least one nation with a monarchy, an established church, and a hereditary aristocracy that isn't deemed Authoritarian. Namely the United Kingdom, but I think most of Scandinavia would also count until the 1990s.

But, in these countries, the King don't have real power. The original "right-wing" supported the power of the King against the Parliament.

• An hierarchical order, where the lower class respect the higher class and the higher classe takes care of the lower classes

How did Fascism do that? Yeah it had a hierarchy, but so did most every nation in the thirties. Britain certainly had a hierarchy of some kind. For that matter so did Stalinist Russia. As for the taking care of the lower classes, again how did it do that? Unless you mean killing the lower classes by genocide or having slogans like "long live death."--T. Anthony 15:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

All nations have hierarchy. But hierarchy is a central point in fascist (and conservative) idealogy, unlike, for example, communist or libertarian idealogy

• The idea that faith is more important than reason (the diference is that traditionalists prefer traditional religion, and fascists prefer some exoteric and mystical cults)

This could be said of all kinds of regimes. It's vague, it's meaningless.--T. Anthony 15:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not talking about regimes, I am talking about idealogies. While, for example, communist or libertarian idealogy give much importance to "reason" (even if these 2 idealogies, using "reason", came to opposite conclusions), fascism and conservatism are explicitly "anti-reason".

• Nationalism

Agreed.--T. Anthony 15:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

• Even in economy, the traditionalist position ("landowners - good!; money capitalists - bad!") is similar to the fascist position ("industrialists - good!; international bankers - bad!")

Then, I think that fascism is much more closer to traditionalism than, for example, to comunist, and, in conclusion, is clearly in the far-right

BTW, I think that even Hayek did not call fascism "left-wing": I have a vague ideia that he calls fascism "right-wing socialism" --194.65.151.249 15:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

No, hayek does not call fascism "right-wing socialism", just try reading his book; The rosd to serfdom. Hayek says the furthest left is totalitarianism and the furthest right you go chaotic anarchy. I follow that line that's why i am a free market centrist. I believe we need limited govenment, but not no government.Thats why I'm not a socialist or a anarchist, not a modern liberal or a modern conservative. (Neutral nobody 15:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

In this article, Hayek makes much references about a "socialism of the right-wing". ---212.113.164.103 18:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a response to the above linked article. Here are quotes from that article:

"Still less was the cause, as so many people wish to believe, a capitalist reaction against the advance of socialism. On the contrary, the support which brought these ideas to power came precisely from the socialist camp."

"The doctrines which had guided the ruling elements in Germany for the past generation were opposed not to the socialism in Marxism but to the liberal elements contained in it, its internationalism and its democracy."

"The connection between socialism and nationalism in Germany was close from the beginning."

He does refer to the socialist left and right coming together , but you have to realize in Hayek's writings and Karl Marx's writings they both mention varying degrees of socialism. On Hayek's left-right line there are on the right side of the spectrum a group of weak socialists, still to the left of the center(or what he called Classical Liberalism or non-socialists for limited government). (Neutral nobody 17:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

There are any quotation of Hayek were he says that Fascism or National Socialism are "left-wing"? I am saying "left-wing", not "socialist"--212.113.164.103 18:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I think you've managed to show problems in calling Fascism right-wing. Although I think you're getting right-wing confused with conservativism in general. Anyway an aristocratic monarchial state with an authoritarian government that values faith over reason and is Nationalist. This would fit Italy and Spain under Fascism to a degree, but not that well. Surprisingly in many respects it might fit Bhutan pretty well. Although the nations it'd probably fit best are the Gulf states, especially Saudi Arabia. The problem with Bhutan or SA is I'm not sure how nationalist either is. Saudis are Muslims who believe in loyalty to the Umma, or so I presume. In the 1920s and 1930s I imagine Haile Selassie's Ethiopia fit all this better than the Italy that attacked him.--T. Anthony 15:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Again, I am talking about idealogies, not about countries

Note to Neutral nobody. Nowhere in my SPLC article do I state that everyone on the political right is a bigot, nor do I believe that to be true, nor have I ever written such a thing. The article also is very clear that not all of the groups I am discussing are "hate groups." Berlet article. It would be refershing if you stopped making statements about me and my work that show an alarming lack of careful research. Not all the claims by right-wingers about me on the Internet are true, especially the material by Horowitz and his gang. Please sign your comments. It's a sort of tradition here on Wiki.--Cberlet 16:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

mean you said all right wingers

Sorry, I thought I did sign it. Sorry, I didn't mean that you meant all right wing people were bigots, what I meant was you lumped people in that bigot group that didn't belong in that group. David Horowitz's group is not a hate group, but you list it. I have never read any claims from right-wingers; I based all my statements from your articles (Neutral nobody 17:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)).

Who is not signing or at least not writing anonymous. Example: "Again, I am talking about idealogies, not about countries". Who is this? (Neutral nobody 17:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

This passage is from me (194.65.151.249 and also another IP)--212.113.164.103 18:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

So, Neutral nobody, but then how do you conclude that I called David Horowitz's group a "hate group" when the article specifically did not call David Horowitz's group a "hate group?" The article discusses groups that "have helped spread bigoted ideas into American life." The ones listed with an asterisk are considered "hate groups" by SPLC.--Cberlet 18:17, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

You said on this page, that you were writing about hate groups in your article , and you mention his group in the article. So, I thoght you said you were calling his group a hate group. You are parsing words: "The article discusses groups that "have helped spread bigoted ideas into American life."" is indirectly saying that their group promulgates hate. (Neutral nobody 18:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

And, if fascism/nazism is not far-right, why, when self-assumed fascist parties (for example, Italian Social Movement) elect MPs, they choose to sit in the far-right?--212.113.164.104 19:10, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Cause modern Facists/nazis are stupid, unlike their intelectual, though deluded forbears. Or mabye, they bought into the same rehtoric as most others have about the topic. Or maybe, thats where they are made to sit. I think its the first and second choice. - neutral nobody

---

Original fascist movements of all forms tried to appeal to right but also appear more progressive than the left and in turn appeal to certain leftist demographics. The radicalized right have clung on to the fascist iconography only because what is unsucessful is always usually relegated to the category of 'reactionary' (anything resurgent from what has formally been vanquished comes across as "reactionary" moreso than revolutionary) though this doesn't have much to do with what a fascism would have done if such movements were historically successful. However, "left" or "right", much like 'black & white', cannot describe any "colouration" of political opinion whatever, it is merely a derisive term only useful for a vulgar simplification as a way to blind demographics to polarize themselves into not thinking for themselves. Any label to Fascism (or for that matter, anything) of 'left' or 'right' will always be coercive and POV, because it is relegating its entire dynamic and all of its 'loyalties' to "this" or "that" with nothing inbetween except for 'more of' "this" or "that" (moderate, extreme, far, etc.). Nagelfar 19:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah Right on nagelfer! I mostly agree, I think there is some room for left right labels. Neutral nobody

Again, I repeat my question - there is any quote of Hayek or Mises saying "Fascism is left-wing" (or anything similar)? Yes, Hayek and Mises put fascism and socialism in the same side, but, for I have read, it is not much clear if they are putting fasicm in the "left-wing", or are proposing a political spectrum different from the lefr-right spectrum.--194.65.151.17 12:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, in The Road to Serfdom, Hayek puts facism in the left-wing. He does so because he says it is collectivist an socialism. I will have to dig in that book to find it, but I know its there.

I may be dead wrong on what I am about to say, but I believe the communist manifesto in its call to all socialist brethern, mentions national socialism as one of its brethern, as a strand of socialism that uses capiltalism to its socialist ends. I believe Marx and Engles encompass national socialism, but not nazism. A lot of people put national socialism and nazism as the same thing, but they are not. I will re-read The Road to Serfdom and The Communist Manifesto and get back to you. (Neutral nobody 21:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

Yes, you may be dead wrong. There is no refernce to "national socialism" anywhere in the Communist Manifesto, and if there were, it would not have a meaning related to the Nazi usage of the term, which is a strictly post-world-War I usage. I believe that the closest thing to what you are saying that can be found in the Communist Manifesto is the following: "Though not in substance, yet in form, the struggle of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie is at first a national struggle. The proletariat of each country must, of course, first of all settle matters with its own bourgeoisie." But this is simply a statement that national revolutions are part of the path to proletarian internationalism, a concept that has nothing in common with "national socialism" as that term is now understood, or was understood during the time of the Nazis. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say Marx or Engels called it by the name of National Socialism in the manifesto. I said they mentioned ' in its call to all socialist brethern, mentions national socialism as one of its brethern, as a strand of socialism that uses capiltalism to its socialist ends. I believe Marx and Engles encompass national socialism, but not nazism.' In other words they called to socialists, who embrace capitalism to further the socialists ends or accomplishments, to unite with other socialists. The discription of socialists who embrace capitalism to further their socialist means sounds like how national socialism used capitalism to fit their whims. I don't know if this is mentioned in either the manifecto or the long introduction or in the section written to devote the book. But I know they refer to the different types of socialists and claim that they are all brethern. Neutral nobody

P.S. Hayek strongly believied in the left-right line. He put totaltarianism at the farthest left and anarchy at the farthest right. The more collectivist or controling a regime the further left it was, the more individualist or government-free you were the further right it was. He put nazism the furthest left of even communism, according to his book The Road to Serdom. (Neutral nobody 21:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

There is, of course, a bit of Humpty Dumptyism in this use of left-right (which may be Hayek's, but I'd sure like to see a precise citation, I don't remember this, but I read him decades ago). By this standard, Louis XIV was a leftist, and Noam Chomsky is on the right. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Chomsky is a self professed Socialist anarchist. No such thing. Its an oxy-moron. He is for socialism, he distrusts authoritarian regimes, but to carry out his beliefs you must have an authoritrian regime. He dislikes the authoritarian regimes because they oppose his wordview on war, economics, philosophy. Let's say a theocracy, for example, might conflict with Chompsky's views, but a theocracy is authoritarian and their for socaliast and leftwing. Chompsky probally wouldn't mind an authoritarian regime if his guys were in control. (Neutral nobody

Then, for you, the defenders of absolute monarchy are left-wing, also???--212.113.164.104 15:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

In "Why I am not a conservative[2], Hayek wrote "The picture generally given of the relative position of the three parties does more to obscure than to elucidate their true relations. They are usually represented as different positions on a line, with the socialists on the left, the conservatives on the right, and the liberals somewhere in the middle. Nothing could be more misleading. If we want a diagram, it would be more appropriate to arrange them in a triangle with the conservatives occupying one corner, with the socialists pulling toward the second and the liberals toward the third". Don't seems a gteat defense of the rigth-left line.

In a condensedversion of "The Road to Serfdom"[3], the words "right-wing" and "left-wing" does not occur in any point (however, is a condensed version)--81.84.252.170 01:30, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for all the editors who stepped in and insisted on neutrality. Thank you for those who wrote the content which Cberlet reverted, and which I moved in my complex edit. Thank you to anyone and everyone who gives a damn about writing a neutral encyclopedia article, rather than a commie rag editorial. This article is ready for the dispute header to be removed, as far as I am concerned. Please come and help me @ Fascism and ideology / Nazism in relation to other concepts. Sam Spade 19:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, please, can you link the Star Spangled Banner to the above text?--Cberlet 19:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Add the Star Spangled banner? Cool and the stars and stripes too! I'll supply the jpg. (Neutral nobody 21:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

Image:Lincoln18.jpg

This line was removed, because it is POV:

This line was removed, because it is POV: "Strictly speaking this usage is incorrect as libertarians are ultimately liberal in many senses while conservatives are usually defined as against revolutionary changes of the Right or Left. Still it does occur in some quarters."

It could be argued that libertarians are not liberal in many senses, like economics, gun rights, government interference, ect. Or argued that old conservatism is defined that way, but new conservatism is very active in changing what they see as the liberal status quo. You could say conservatives wish to radically alter the left, by hoping they could help make it passe. You could also say that they wish to radically alter the right, so it is fully conservative.(Neutral nobody 22:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

You should look up what liberal originally meant. It meant the individual having minimal restraint from the state. In Europe minimal economic interference and even gun rights can be called the "classical liberal" or "neoliberal" position. Still the sentence was awkward, if accurate. Whatever works--T. Anthony 00:47, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I have. It is now called classical liberalismthough. If that is what the author meant, then he should state it as 'ultimately classically liberal', with an internal link to classic liberal, classically liberal or classic liberalism. I don't believe that that is what he meant though. Either, he thinks classic liberalism is the same a modern liberalism(today a.k.a. liberalism), or it was a intentional mislead. I hope it wasn't the second and will have to take him in good faith that it was the first. (Neutral nobody 01:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

As I wrote it I think I know what I meant. However as I meant classical liberalism, I probably should have said that. Apologies.--T. Anthony 01:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies on my part, I didn't know it was you who wrote it. cool! (Neutral nobody

No sweat. I was maybe a bit snappish and I'm not 100% certain I wrote it.(Although I'm pretty sure)--T. Anthony 03:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)