Talk:False dilemma

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this page is overly complicated especialy in regards to the last article, simplification would be appriciated.
The false dilemma is also common in politics, especially in places like the United States where there are only two major political parties.

The article shows no evidence that the US has more "false dilemma" fallacies in its politics than elsewhere. Europe has its share, and non-democratic countries have more than their share.

Let's keep out the "especially in...US" thing pending evidence for it. --Ed Poor

Well, voting systems that encourage two-party systems do so by squee\ing out minority parties. Voters avoid voting for minority parties in the belief that they would be wasting their vote, and instead vote for the best of two evils. I guess you could see this as the fallacy of the excluded middle, but I'm not convinced... Martin
Actually, with the disctrict voting system, you are wasting your vote if you vote for a small party. With proportional representation, on the other hand, you don't. -- Mrdice
Right, the voting system is arguably flawed, but where's the fallacy? A fallacious conclusion drawn from the voting system might be "You're either a Democrat or a Republican". (Or: either a liberal or a conservative) Aragorn2 16:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The original definition and the discussion here is quite interesting but has one major flaw: your use of the word "dilemma". A dilemma is not a situation in which one has to decide between a more or less positive and a more or less negative alternative, but rather a situation in which both alternatives are more or less negative!

'False dilemma' is a single term, and its meaning need not have to do with that of 'dilemma'. Just as one can commit the fallacy of special pleading without actually pleading. Andre Engels 13:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Example is confusing

It is confusing to include "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" as an illustrative example of a false dilemma. When taken in context, this statement is usually made as part of a statement of policy rather than current fact. In this context, it is a condition that the speaker will assume to be true and act accordingly (i.e., if an entity does not show itself to be with "us", it will be assumed to be with the "terrorists"). Unless it is impossible for the speaker to make this assumption and (rightfully or wrongfully) act on this assumption, this is not a good example of a false dilemma.

The speaker's assumption is in itself fallacious, because it implies a false dilemma. If I'd assume that you're either a Bolivian or a Nigerian, that would be equally fallacious. You can't be both, obviously, but you could be neither. Do you mean to say "Just because somebody makes illogical assumptions, that doesn't mean they're fallacious."??? Aragorn2 16:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree it is confusing because it is a statement of policy, not fact (the policy being that we would no longer accept neutral tolerance or harboring of terrorist activity). You might as well include "Give me liberty or give me death" or "Live free or die" as an example of this logical fallacy. Furthermore, I think it is inappropriate and a violation of NPOV to use real-life quotations for examples of logical fallacies, particularly if they are taken from only one party or POV.

..... Politics is infamous for false dilemmas due in part to the economic and personal stakes in political life. Someone who says "You are with us or you are with the terrorists" is a false dichotomy if one is confused with the terrorists because one dissents with political agendas that have no connection to terrorism (fiscal policy, labor-management relations, school prayer, evolution, abortion, economic corruption). Actions that might directly aid terrorists, as in laundering money or delivering information between cells would imply being 'with terrorists', but dissent with a government on subsidies for privileged industries or its policies of racial or religious discrimination doesn't comprise 'being with the terrorists', although the government that states such a dichotomy might wish to treat any dissent with its policies as severely as it would treat terrorists. One could argue that a government that enforces exploitative or dehumanizing policies (extreme examples: nazi Germany, apartheid-era South Africa) through force is itself terrorist.

It's wiser to discuss the logic or illogic of political dichotomies of the past so that one can explain a false dichotomy. For example, an American negrophobe during the Civil Rights struggle might have posed the dichotomy as 'segregation or communism'. The retort isn't that the communists were for desegregation; it was instead that segregationism was not necessary for the preservation of capitalism and religious freedom incompatible with communism.

Simple sayings such as "Give me liberty or give me death!" (Patrick Henry)look like flawed dichotomies, but this one can be set up as a syllogism:

Despotic rule makes liberty impossible.
Without liberty, life is meaningless.
Despotic rule makes life meaningless.

Patrick Henry needed not be trained in formal logic to make such a bold, pithy statement. He said enough, and "Give me liberty or give me death!"

To be sure, some people would sacrifice their liberty to get or achieve wealth, privilege, infamy, revenge, safety, or material comfort; the people who agreed with Patrick Henry recognized the value of liberty and were ready to act decisively and sacrificially on its behalf.

--66.231.41.57 14:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

There's no logical fallacy when saying "give me liberty or give me death!", same as there isn't when saying "give me chocolate or give me vanilla!". The speaker is just asking for one of two things. Itub 19:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Opposite" Episode of Seinfeld

Would this episode, where George assumes that "if every instinct he has is wrong, then the opposite must be right" be an example of this fallacy?

I think that's a Non sequitur --69.211.104.41 15:06, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bernard Baruch once stated that all that he needed to do to get good advice on investments was to watch what Sir Winston Churchill (who had his virtues, but consistently exposed incompetence in reading economic trends) did and then did the diametric opposite. Of course that refers to something with a nearly-excluded middle ("buy/sell") with only the near-triviality of a middle, "hold" or "do nothing". --66.231.41.57 14:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Heh, that's my favorite Seinfeld episode. Yes, that would be an example of a false dilemma, rather than a nonsequiter as stated above. George falsely assumes that there are only two possible actions - the one his instincts tell him, and the opposite of that. --BennyD 15:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Dilemma" not correct word

Out of the list of terms covering the same issue, I think that false dilemma is the least practical because a dilemma implies, contrary to popular use, a choice between two unpleasant alternatives. That doesn't necessarily apply to the issue discussed in this article, so I think that "false dichotomy" or one of the other terms should be the primary title.

......

When one speaks of a false dilemma, typically involving two harsh choices (Sobriety or drunkenness), one must of course contrast them to genuine situations, as in abandoning something precious to save ones life. The sailor on a sinking ship who has a large amount of gold that would allow him to buy his way into the aristocracy might have to choose between the gold and drowning. That's an unpleasant choice, but not one created by human design. False dilemmas are often human constructions that deny legitimate alternatives. The 'choice' that the robber offers 'Your money or your life!' forcefully denies the possibility of a victim to pass through with his cash, the situation that a good society enforces with harsh sanctions against robbery. --66.231.41.57 12:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What about the Prisoner's Dilemma? In this case one, and only one, choice of two is considered "rational". --Tmchk 01:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Claim

The False dilemma is related to the claim. A claim in philosophy is a statement that can be evaluated as true or false. A claim is not a definition and is not a description (neither definition nor description can be evaluated as true or false). In the False dilemma a statement is made, and the statement is evaluated as true or false, and this is a philosophers claim.

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

[edit] Propose merge

I have proposed to merge the relatively short article, You're either with us, or against us, here. BD2412 T 15:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: I have added an alternative interpretation of the slogan as a speech act instead of a logical fallacy to the short article. It still needs to be improved, but not merged.--Niels Ø 18:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

So, in the examples, it seems arguable that the first 4 are "speech acts" because they express a policy. But, the last example, "Mitch Daniels stated, 'You're either for this bill or you're against our future,'", probably is more a "false dilemma" because it's not a policy. If that's the case, then merging the article into "false dilemma" would be wrong since the paraphrase could be either a "false dilemma" or a "speech act" and easily debatable as either. --JJLatWiki 16:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. People who want to read an article about the phrase "You're either with us, or against us" can go to that page, and people who want to read about false dilemma in general can go to a separate page. A cat is a type of mammal -- should cat be merged into mammal? I don't see a strong reason to support the merge proposal. —Tokek 14:40, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose if anything, the article should be changed to False dichotomy. False dichotomy is an intellectual term used in university discourse. You're either with us, or against us, is not. MPS 22:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I think MPS may have misunderstood the suggestion. The proposal does not involve changing the name of this article, only adding the content of another article to this one (and creating a redirect). As for the name of this article, in my experience "false dilemma" is at least as common as "false dichotomy," if not overwhelmingly more so, in university courses and philosophy journal articles, and is the easier term to understand for those without a background in logic, and so is clearly the correct name for this article. (I have no idea what MPS means by "intellectual term", a phrase which comes across as expressing a preference for big words for their own sake.) PurplePlatypus 09:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. The above comments notwithstanding, I don't see much point in the merge. One article is about the use of a certain phrase in politics and/or history, the other is about a logical fallacy. That one happens to (arguably) be an instance of the other doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to merge them, any more than it is a reason to merge, say, Ford Contour with Automobile. The articles should reference each other, but that's all. PurplePlatypus 09:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. While I'm not quite sure "You're either with us, or against us" needs an entire article devoted to the phrase, I do not believe the extra data in the article would merge well with False dilemma (specifically, the historical section). -Markusbradley 07:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose The phrase, "You're either with us, or against us", is widely used and has historical relevance. Enough so to be a seperate article. They may be interconnected via the "see also" section, considering they have relations. Somerset219 02:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This obviously failed by virtue of everyone opposing it, and noone else having commented on it in 20 days. I removed the tags. --Kevin_b_er 05:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] "Either/or fallacy" would successfully merge both articles

Hi all, this link is now on the anti-Mormon article as an example, the false dilemma title is not as effective as "either/or fallacy" in the context it often used in. For what it is worth, there is an either/or link already describing a book. Anon166 19:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"Either/or fallacy" is not a particularly common term in logic and critical thinking courses; this isn't the first time I've heard it, but it's close. "False dilemma" is definitely the more usual name, your opinion on their relative clarity (which, it must be admitted, I agree with) notwithstanding. PurplePlatypus 09:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with PurplePlatypus that "either/ or fallacy" is not the commonly used term for this fallacy and thus it should not be labelled this way in Wikipedia. Furthermore, the concept of "your with us or against us" is narrower in scope than the false dilemma. I say these articles should definitely be kept separate.--Will3935 00:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I Oppose. I agree with PurplePlatypus as well. --Tmchk 01:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] merge of false choice into false dilemma

  • For both are used in the same way and have the same definitions. Somerset219 03:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • For They seem to have only miniscule differences; not enough for them to each have their own article.Tuesday42 14:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • ForSee all above. They are very alike. Hezzy 18:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Against I disagree with how false choice is being defined. I have always understood false choice to be where a choice is given, but the two options are really the same. Usually with parents to children i.e. "Do you want to do your homework on the chair or the couch?" The debate is about doing homework, but the 'choices' given by the parent are not really about doing homework, but rather about where the homework is being done, which wasn't a part of the debate.
  • Against for the same reason as the unsigned comment above; I think Wikipedia currently defines "false choice" in a completley incorrect manner, and this proposal only makes sense with the incorrect definition. PurplePlatypus 06:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment With someone with a dictionary or a regular encyclopedia please look up what they have on this? I tried an old American Heritage Dictionary, but to no avail.Tuesday42 01:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • For Ask Google. Scaro 22 September 2006
  • Comment. Merge them only if the consensus on other authoratative sources show that it is needed. However Wikipedia should also reflect common usage. Alan Liefting 02:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • For "Do you want to do your homework on the chair or the couch?" is still a False Dilemma. The excluded choice is "not do homework." It would be the same as "spend money on space exploration, or feed the homeless." The option "spend no money" is available but hidden, just like "not do homework." The oppose votes argue that since the false dilemma is offered and enforced by some figure of authority, that it is something else. The choices offered by the "parent" in the above scenario are the same as the ones regularly offered to us by our elected politicians or heavy-handed managers. Being forced to chose one of the False Dilemma's options doesn't turn it into something else -- it's still the same fallacy -- just with a less receptive moderator to debate with. Googling for the phrase "false choice" just brings up examples of False Dilemmas: "freedom vs security," "low prices vs high wages," "local vs organic," etc. jthillik 19:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  • For The two terms are synonymous. -UK-Logician-2006 22:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
  • For Ewlyahoocom 16:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I already did the merge. I don't see why more nuanced meaning of false choice (or if it is a different thing) or whatever discussion can't be handled here. As it stood the current material was almost identical, so a merge made sense. --Merzul 00:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

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