Talk:Faith Freedom International

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Faith Freedom International article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies
Islam

This article is part of the WikiProject Islam, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Islam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as low-importance on the importance scale.

Article Grading:
The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
This article is supported by the Islam and Controversy task force.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on July 9, 2005. The result of the discussion was delete.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5 Dec 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents

[edit] WP:WEB

How does this website meet WP:WEB? BhaiSaab talk 13:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

According to WP:WEB web-specific content is notable if:

  1. The content itself has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the site itself. This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper and magazine articles, books, television documentaries, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations, except for the following:
    1. Media re-prints of press releases and advertising for the content or site.
    2. Trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply report the internet address, the times at which such content is updated or made available, a brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of internet addresses and site or content descriptions in internet directories or online stores.
  2. The website or content has won a notable independent award from either a publication or organisation.(If I start lying against the religions, like Christianity, I can also get this award! This is a notable criminal website. They just lie. Just see the Zakir Naik's debate with William Cambell and this website is protecting the William. The say that the William arguments were GREAT, yet they dont have the video on their website!!!)
  3. The content is distributed via a site which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster.(The people who crusified the Jesus may be more popular then this group of liers. Have you any popularity award for them?)

--TruthSpreaderTalk 13:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


Agree -- not notable enough to merit this article. What do other people think? BYT 16:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Im still waiting for RS that establish N. --Striver 16:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

FFI has received some media attention, and that makes the organization notable. -- Karl Meier 17:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It would be "trivial coverage." See WP:WEB. BhaiSaab talk 17:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links to criticism of Ali Sina not allowed due to undue weight.

I have removed the links (including a malformed one) that are focused on criticism of Ali Sina because as all have mentioned we are not focusing on Ali Sina - this is about FaithFreedom International and adding too many links critical of Ali Sina is an undue weight towards him. He is notable in his own right but that issue isn't the subject of this article. Criticism of him needs to be on his page. Oops hello thats right you got his page removed. That's a shame really so you can't deem him to be unworthy of a wikipedia page BUT then have the same people feel that it's worthy that many links are added back in that criticise him. Ttiotsw 09:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Faithfreedom is nothing without Ali Sina. Actually, faithfreedom is the Ali Sina. Criticising Ali Sina is equivalent to criticising faith freedom. How many lies you want to know that Ali Sina and faith freedom tell you? r u interested?

His own website,or website of his friends are not proof neither reflect his standing!!Quote authentic sites!!Outside critics have to be quoted..

Faithfreedom is mentioned as a site for people trying to escape from Islam in the list that Richard Dawkins provides in his book The God Delusion. We need not establish the notability of Dawkins here in this field of analysing the delusion of religion from his scientists point of view. Ali Sina is a contributor to the Faithfreedom site so general critisisms of Faithfreedom contributions could be accepted but simple nonsense apologetics raving on about Ali Sina add little to Wikipedia. Ali Sina is only notable within Wikipedia when the site is mentioned on that articles page, or where he has contributed to other notable content e.g. any other book contributions, or as an example of someone notable who is apostate of Islam (because of his contributions to a book in this field of apostacy). Like I say when he writes a book on Pokemon which gets critically received we can refer to him out side of this field of apostatic Muslims so right now he stays in the field of apostacy and Muslims. The question is he critically received ? I think the fact that there are so many people wanting to add links to sites that criticise him means a yes. The desire to add a link to a site that criticises Ali Sina is a self-defeating assertion that Ali Sina is notable. This is my logic of saying that you cannot claim he is not notable and yet want to add critical links which indicate a degree of notability. Therefore only critisism of Faithfreedom can be added as that is the only article in which we have a clear ground for notability.
Wikipedia isn't about truth and lies but simply reliable sources. For instance we have loads on the Quran and that's more or less a complete fairytale same as the Bible and of an unreliable source (an angel !). We have loads on the Bible and thats an inconsistent mishmash of fantasy which borrows from an older Jewish minor faith, and then there is the old Testament which is only matched nowadays by books like Lord of the Rings in its bloodthirsty tales of woe. Give us a break on the truth and lies angle. Ttiotsw 08:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe we should take this page, its AfD, etc. to RfC

I have noticed numerous instances among us of failing to be WP:CIVIL. Why don't we take a breather, Muslims, Kaffirs, Jews, and Christians, and reason it out? FFI is notable because it is a nexus of criticism of Islam, especially through its message board. Should it matter that various pro-Islam sites overshadow it? WP:WEB is a useful guide, but sometimes it fails to truly determine notability, especially if smaller groups with unique arguments are involved. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be deleted(See this discussion please and give ur reponse)

Hey Guys i think this article should be deleted. it just shows a website and its motto. I think its not needed in wikipedia please lets discuss why its needed. if it is needed only because it was on alexa rankings in top 30000 website once in last yr. then please tell me, can i make articles on islamonline.net (which is in top 1000 ranking), islam-qa.com(top 10000),islamicity.com(top 10000) and many . I will start building article on this website organisation soon. Mak82hyd 18:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that update. I've updated the link to the new site ( now http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/ ) BTW: for a list of authors see, http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1 so some work to backfill on who they are and get some summaries for the page. Ttiotsw 20:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
"can i make articles on islamonline.net (which is in top 1000 ranking), islam-qa.com(top 10000),islamicity.com(top 10000) and many" Sure, please do that. The only thing is that I am afraid that you can't make a new article on IslamOnline, because we already got one. -- Karl Meier 11:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
"Faith Freedom" is an article which is not worthy to be rated as article. I think it is advertisement of a website. It should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 1000only (talk • contribs) 22:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

I dont know if it should be remopved or not. But if it has to stay then it should not be an adevrtisement gimmick. I made edits and they all got deleted. WHY ? because i spoke about the truth which the website itself lists. Ex. Its members who wrote or commented on the site is 1200 only out of the 20,000,000 visitors. The number of emails read till date is like 6,000 only. People who read the articles published there are also in just thousands. If these facts are present in the article its balances the claim of being viewed by 400,000 people (which is possible by cross linking a marketing gimmick). A view is counted ust by clicking the site link and opening the website, while actually staying there and reading the pages is what matters. The facts on site meter and others state that a person on an average spends 5 seconds on a particular page and around 5 minutes on the entire site. I believe that all relevant facts should be up in the article and not only those that make the website look 'important'. talking about 20,000,000 visitors is one sided and advertises the site rather than give a true picture of how much the site is worth. Z2qc1 16:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I explained on your talk page WHY at least some of your edits were reverted. You are a new user, you did many edits in as many minutes and removed text without using a single edit summary. I explained if you do this on pages that are contentious then these changes will be reverted. Please use edit summaries and please use the review feature.
Personally couldn't care less about the page reads/clickthrough/site meters. The worth of the site is supported by the fact that it is listed in Dawkins' The God Delusion as one of the few sites for people who want to leave Islam. Ttiotsw 07:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Wiki doesnt allow personal opinions. so what you think personally is not revelant. facts are relevant. Bias towards one particular fact while leaving out othrs is again not wiki policy. I told you why i had 15 edits in 19 minutes or viceversa. The tags were getting messed up. i had no idea about using preview. I corrected the error later when i learnt. See my talk page i did recognise my error and mistake. My edits were edited spicifically acording to what your and matts personal opinion was. what ever you and matt thought is against the goodwill of the website should be deleted, is that not correct? I mean not editing 20,000,000 visits comment but editing 'number of members' or 'time spent on the website' shows that you Ttiotsw and Matt are both onnly trying to create an advertisement for the website. Do you have a reference that the article is listed in Dawkins book. Just dont say you have but quote a reference. Thats all i wish for the article, that it be worthy of included in wiki. By worthy doesnot mean 20,000,000 hits or inclusion in Your book. Rather it be listed as a article and not as an advertisement. Z2qc1

Then you misunderstand what the article talk pages are for; what I think personally is relevant as that is how we arrive at a consensus view. Please do not conflate "Matt" and my edits but address what we may have done individually as we do not work together (I would compare that to say your edit here [1] where you are trying to gather some other editors interest). I work alone and come to my own personal opinion based on what I see as a balance of the guidelines and facts. The text for the Dawkins book entry is,
"Faith Freedom International is listed in the appendix of Richard Dawkins book The God Delusion as one of the few Islamic related "...Friendly address(es), for individuals needing support in escaping from religion" (page 379)."
but it got removed around late December 2006 and I never bothered to put it back. I will do that now though, thanks for reminding me. Ttiotsw 08:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Ttiotsw I did not misunderstand. My comment was about personal opinions on the wiki article page and not on its talk page. Deleting something which you personally thought is not good. Thats what i meant that your personal opinions have no place on wiki article. Consensus is not when you and matt both agree. Consensus is when you , an editor/contributor and me and editor/contributor and matt an editor/contributor and other editors/contributors all agree or disagree. Or consider something important or not important. Sometimes something can be listed without consensus if it is a true fact. Ex.There are people who follow one religion of the other and few Matt's and Ali Sina's. If all people who follow religion reach a consensus and say that Wiki should not have FFI article it would be against the sprit of having Wiki if FFI is not included in wiki inspite of standing the Wiki tests (which i am not sure of if FFI has.)

I tried to to activate other editors of the article, else you and matt will just keep deleting my edits as if you guys own the page and delete anything that you personally think is irrelevant for promoting the website. You dont have to spend time searching for what z2qc1 has done and what is he doing. Its strange and spooky to follow a user to look for his activites.

How do you see the article as a balance of guidelines? Its not. Wiki guidilines says there should be no bias. However potraying one piece of information and neglecting/deleting/hiding another piece is bias. 1) Bias towards potraying that the website is very notable and has been overflooded by people. Fact is that people who bother to write on the website is only 1200. thats like 0.003 percent of the visitors. These visitors have spent on an average 5 seconds on a page. This shows that the website is not flooded by visitors but rather click--- open---5 secs----close. Readers should be aware of that if readers are being told that the website is being flooded by millions.

2)Potraying the website as banned in 'SOME' muslim countries is false. SOME and countrie'S' is a generalized statement which may include many other muslim countries who dont ban the website. This is unjust towards those countries. Yes it is banned in Saudi Arabia and the article has a credible reference thats good. So we say it is banned in 1 country. Then the article should say it may be banned in Pakistan however no credible reference could be found. Saying its banned in Pakistan (still does not make it 'some' muslims countries) with a "credible" ('internet users' say so or Mr. Sina's says so is not credible reference)

3) Dawkins reference if present should be there, its good. I agree and dont mind at all. However the correct way of referencing would perhaps be to list it as "Friendly address(es), for individuals needing support in escaping from religion" Dawkins,(2006), appendix pg 376. It should not be like... Ali Sina has been reffered by Dawkins in his book "such and such" as a good website that explains why religion especially Islam is bad for your health etc etc. Note that the term Dr. is not used my me for Ali Sina. Because there is no credible evidence that he is a Doctor of anything. This is all how i want it to be. Credible. Not like how it is in the article now. Ex. Ali sina is a great man (ref). Faithfredom.org. Ali Sina has be called a God by millions (ref) Faithfrreedom.org. etc etc Honestly i find the website quite shady. Till three days ago there were no commnets since July or Aug 2006. I made some points in my edits regarding those. Guess what...all my edits were deleted by either Matt or someone else. I checked FFI and suddendly it has updates and comments as recent as 25 Feb 2007. I was dumbstruck. Is Matt Ali Sina himself or what Anyways, i care less. All i care is wiki should have a true article about anything it lists not just personal opinions of people who think wiki can be used for advertising.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Z2qc1 (talk • contribs).

You must be talking about the old web site. Have you checked [2] as that seems to be the new site. For instance the story, [3] was filed on the 15th Feb and has 55 comments. There seems to be stories op-ed or otherwise linked every day. Ttiotsw 10:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Somehow i find the entire site dubious. Many flaws. Anyways i checked through your link (a sub section) and followed it to find the section. This is what i got. http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=listarticles&secid=8

In one of the article i read that the proze money os only to attract people to debate. There is no real money as such. Then i also read that Mr. Sina's family is still a muslim in fact at the level of cleric's. I find it strange that he says muslims are bullies while he himself lives with them prayed with them, respects them. One of the article he says he read the bible when he "...was 13 years old and could not contain my laughter" http://www.iiop.org/Debate7.php. Then another place he says he read the Quran in 1994. A person living in Iran. Comming from a cleric family reads the bible at age 13 and the Quran in 1994. I mean i find it strange.Anyways, you take care. Just be sure that you dont fall in the trap of donating money eventually making him rich. Remember Osho Rajneesh and others like him. They all used God and inner peace. Mr. Sina is using hate muslims and golden rule. Both of the above references are as of 03 March 2007. Websites are not reliable references cuz inforamtion on them can change anytime.Z2qc1 16:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Op-ed Author list link (need researching to help the article)

The link, http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&catid=&topic=19 , has a number of op-ed authors. Ideally we need to take each, check article and name and other sources for that name and see if its just page scrapping (RSS etc) or actual op-ed stuff (e.g. first Cinnamon Stillwell op-ed I saw looked like page scrape). And then the link http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1 has author names who have contributed articles. Need to do the same and ideally post back here into talk what you find. That should (or not!) allow up to build up a inbound link from other notables sites back to faithfreedom and thus establish notability of faithfreedom. There is a lot of noise in those author lists but something should crop up though I think its just Ali Sina that is mainly verifiable (due to his contribution to Ibn Warraq's book Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out). Remember it is the "truth" but verify who said what and when and where. Ttiotsw 21:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removing unencyclopedic tag

This was added on the 18:02, 5 December 2006 by an user Truthspreader and then at 18:38, 5 December 2006 a since-banned (1 year) user BhaiSaab added the AfD nomination. This thus allowed just 36 minutes for anyone to get the article up to scratch. Given this was fallout from the article delete of related article for Ali Sina very soon before the flow of tags from unencyclopedic to AfD was not made in good faith. I have removed the unencyclopedic tag as it states, "An editor has expressed concern that this article may be unencyclopedic and ought to be deleted. This is a primarily a statement about the article's subject, not necessarily its quality or veracity. Please review what Wikipedia is not and try to resolve the objections on the talk page." ...and yet the subsequent AfD which proposed deletion and was rejected with "The result was no consensus to delete, reasonable argument that the site meets WP:WEB... but please improve referencing in article." means that the previous unencyclopedic tag that predates the AfD has been proven to not be valid as the admin says it satisfies WP:WEB. Ttiotsw 04:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


+++++++++++++ This entire article looks more of a advertisement. This is reflected by the number of links the article has (self links, other websites that have a link to Faith freedom. and other news papers links that have a link of FF embeded. If you check all the references the article has, have links back to the FF website.) This kind of cross links leads to the notability of a website. "Site popularity can be achieved through online and offline marketing and through link popularity..." Ref: http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/search-engine-optimisation/build-up-links-website.shtml

Another reference of this linking business this article has."Power Linking Is A Proven Targeted Traffic Generation System Guaranteed To Increase Targeted Traffic Each And Every Month!...". " How would you feel if you started drastically increasing your targeted traffic to your website over the next 3 months?" http://www.power-linking-profits.com/

The website is not a sales website. So people may only click on a link and visit the page without reading or spending not more than a few seconds on the site. So how can a website ranking prove the notibility of the website under these circumstances?

[edit] Removing notability tag

This tag was added by user Striver at 18:52, 5 December 2006 i.e. 14 minutes after the AfD and thus is related to the AfD. The admin closed the AfD with "The result was no consensus to delete, reasonable argument that the site meets WP:WEB... but please improve referencing in article." means that the previous notability tag that postdates the AfD and predates the conclusion has been proven to not be valid as the admin says it satisfies WP:WEB. Ttiotsw 04:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding web links. Please talk first then add after consensus.

An edit, [4] added a shedload of links to dodgy looking Islamic sites. Certainly not clear how they are notable. This adds undue weight to the opposing sites and less weight to what we are discussing which is Faith Freedom International and (indirectly the founder of that site Ali Sina). Ideally can we have a consensus that any link is first discussed here (each as a new subject) before it is added unless it is a reference used to add verifiability to the text. Ttiotsw 05:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Karl, when the article is about site whats wrong in giving its opposing sites as well. this is bias mate. when u wrote about ali sina in that article. these sites will become relevant and its opposing sites for FFI so they should stay there. I am reverting it. i hope u will understand. and please dont revert it Mak82hyd 01:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just looked at the site as it presently stands, and am suprised to find the external link from the notable independent online news site WorldNetDaily about FaithFreedom.org is gone. I would like to see it restored. Here is the address of the article entitled "TESTING THE FAITH: Ex-Muslim's site trashes Muhammad; Founder challenges: Prove me wrong and I'll take down page" http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40473 74.102.58.135 02:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

This link was deleted by Mak82hyd - I'm not surprised. I dont feel like contributing until Wikipedia has policies that deal ruthlessly with this kind of POV vandalism. You could go ahead and add that link back in. Good luck everyone, with the revert wars. I really feel though something should be done about the phenomena of POV vandalism. This is common everywhere in Wikipedia on all controversial articles, not just on topics on Islam. My suggestion is that once a topic reaches a nice quality, editing should be locked and people should only be able to make suggestions and only a few people who are authorized to make the changes should change, based on consensus reached. This will prevent POV vandalism and the Edit Wars. --Matt57 02:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
It was a revert and the web address got deleted anyways, the site worldnetdaily is american conservative website which is bias against muslims. Mak82hyd 00:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Matt57. It looks like User:Sefringle handily accomplished the re-insertion needed. As for your suggestion, I hope you succeed in getting it put into policy. 74.102.58.135 06:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From the old Ali Sina page

We should look at the old Ali Sina page. See here. Not everything is relevant to this new page, but some of this stuff is. That stuff should be moved here.--Sefringle 21:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should include the imformation about the debates on this article.--Sefringle 03:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree, some information should be imported because te site is by its founder and we can have information on the founder. Looks like an anonymous IP imported a lot of that stuff. Lets see how much of that is filtered/censored out later. I hope you get the Mecca page into the article drive. It would be nice to see a page on that city which doesnt show that this is an exclusively Muslim/Islam related city. It should look like a normal any kind of city plus ofcourse it should include its importance to Islam but to be exclusively about Islam as it is right now, is not the best way. It would be interested to see what kind of changes can take place in that page to further this mission. --Matt57 19:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

matt, this not ali sina article, his views and himself are unnecessary and not notable thats why the page was deleted by admins. please respect their views and people who wants his views will go to his website from here which is shown. so le them decide to go and read if they think its something to read about. Mak82hyd 02:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you first explain why you deleted the link to WorldnetDaily as I pointed out in the above section? --Matt57 03:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Now I've added the parts from the old website that I think are relevant.--Sefringle 09:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not add the Views and observations and Ali Sina's Challenge sections, but I think part of them is relevant, but it needs editing. --Sefringle 09:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that was appropriate but we are back to the same old game Wikipedia is unable to handle. Edit wars and repeated POV vandalism; constant pulling of the article in either directions. This is just wrong, I mean Wikipedia's inability to handle this. Maybe it will help somewhat adding in materials little by little instead of in chunks to get past this constant censorship. --Matt57 13:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We have good external links for this article now

But we need more. Are there any more that can be found? This article is here to stay now. It was deleted in its prior Ali Sina form because of non-notability (no external links). I hope more links can be found to make this article comply even stronger to WP:WEB. If we had had those external links then, the article wouldnt have been deleted. I remember it was me who filled up somewhat this article with FFI's links - that was even pointed out by FayssalF. Now we need some more good links and references. --Matt57 13:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

What external lilnks???They are all FFI links. Or links where FFI has a link. Thats not an external link.

[edit] FFI's mention in Ibn Warraq's book - potential reference

In Warraq's book Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out, Appendex B titled "Ex-Muslims of the world unite", page 433, there is a whole 3 page section on FFI. It mentions its website URL and mission statement. This is a valid mention of FFI, so I think this could be a reference for the article. The page range is 433-436. Although this is FFI's mission statement from its website quoted in full and is not a description by Ibn Warraq. This reference can atleast be added to the references. Ali Sina's own testimony of leaving Islam is in page 137-157 of this book. This can also be a reference. The title of his testimony is: Why I left Islam-My passage from faith to enlightenment.--Matt57 14:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

the part about FFI can be refrenced in this article, but the part about Ali Sina's testimony of leaving Islam is not relevant, as this article is not about Ali Sina, but about FFI.--Sefringle 06:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
As Ali Sina is the founder of FFI Then he can be mentioned. Obviously he can't be mentioned in other articles unless it is specific to the subject. He is notable. An example for you would be like saying that Bahá'u'lláh cannot be mentioned in an article on Bahá'í as the subject is only about Bahá'í. That doesn't make sense as the ideals and background of the founder of 'x' are relevant to an article on 'x'. Obviously I chose Bahá'í as they too are hunted and killed for some weird reason. Ttiotsw 07:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
"page 433, there is a whole 3 page section on FFI. It mentions its website URL and mission statement." so, just to confirm, these "whole three pages" are occupied by FFI's mission statement from its website and its website URL? that doesn't seem to be the non-trivial mention as specified by WP:WEB. ITAQALLAH 03:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] =

These are not good links but a tactful way of marketing the website. This is called power linking. What a fools world !!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.165.78.57 (talk) 14:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Why is this on wikipedia? - ...because Wikipedia is not censored

I just came across this article and was surprised to find it. This site is not even a real legal organization and the guy, Ali Sina, is not anyone famous. Wikipedia is supposed to educate people about real things, not just little organizations. If faithfreedom were to become a widespread debate in the world, then it would be something important. But honestly, if faithfreedom is on wikipedia, it also legitamizes a lot of websites to be on wikipedia, hurting the quality of this project. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sartaj (talk • contribs) 01:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

This has already been discussed here.--Sefringle 06:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Your plea presents a fallacy and proposes self-censorship. Quoting Paine, “Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.”, the core principe of Islam is submission. Submission is the antithesis to reason. Ttiotsw 08:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Sartaj, it doesnt matter if Ali Sina exists or not. All you have to do is see whether the article meets the WP:WEB criteria.--Matt57 15:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that it doesnt matter if Ali Sina Exists or not. It does matter the revenues of the site go to him. Credibility is being obtained without references. Mass propoganda does not mean evidence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Created2 (talk • contribs).

Sign your talk messages. What revenues? Why do revenues matter here anyway? Like I said the standard to be used on this article is WP:WEB. The references are there to see. See the last section of that page (links about..). This is mass 'propaganda' according to you. You're not supposed to put in your own opinions and conclusions in an article. You're a beginner here. Please see the standards used on Wikipedia and read a bit. --Matt57 03:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Development: Annual Awards

As announced yesterday on the FaithFreedom Forum in the Action section, Ali Sina and the directors of the site are instituting annual awards. Should this development be included in the Wikipedia article? 74.102.58.135 08:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I say lets at least wait until the awards have been announced. Whats needed the most right now is more links for FFI's notablity so no one dares to nominate this article for deletion again. --Matt57 23:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Another development:: Mr. Sina is now asking for donations. http://www.faithfreedom.org/#1. Showing a need for several thousands but asking for only a few 10's or 20's $. Guess what perhaps we should include this new development too. In 3 days he managed to amass 1,000$. We can include this money raising capacity point. Actually,,, . I am not surprised, i had made a comment about such donations in march 07 above. Cant we include this fact in the article??Z2qc1

[edit] Notability of Ali Sina and FFI

Now that the notability of FFI has been established (I hope more links will be brought in, the more the better), my question is: If FFI is notable, isnt Ali Sina too? If so, more information that existed on page should be brought here as Sefringle tried to do. Also actually under the new title, we can write more. Previously we could only include information on Ali Sina, but now we can also include other information on the website that may not be directly related to Ali Sina. I've also included a logo as you can see. The page looks better now. --Matt57 22:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

matt, why is Ali sina views and debates are being written in FFI page. its not his page its about website so just write about website not about the founder. how can i write about yusuf qaradawi who made the islamonline.net website on the website page, its wrong. just write about FFI on the article what his founder said or thinks does not matter.
    • ffi is notable according to admins but not ali sina, remember his article was deleted because of notability*

Thats why i am removing what ali sina said or thinks. i hope you can understand.Mak82hyd 00:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

  • point to note and remeber
In this article most if not all citations and references have been given from the same website but not from other neutral websites. websites which mentions ali sina or FFI are sister websites of ffi and one worldnetdaily is american conservative website(which is declared as anti islamic and biased, by many people). Mak82hyd 00:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The two sections I added from the old Ali Sina page are because they can easily be related to Faith Freedom as well. Ali Sina's views are the views of Faith Freedom, mainly because Faith Freedom is Ali Sina's website.--Sefringle 01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
how is FFi ali sina website? how do you know that Ali sina is human or something else can be a group name? whats the proof? can you take whatever in the name of ali sina is said...no.Mak82hyd 22:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
FFI is Ali Sina's website because he says so. Do you have proof that the website belongs to someone other than Ali Sina? No you dont. The Debates are a PART of the website and should be included in the article. I have given you the example - should I go ahead and delete information on Muhammad on Islam's page because the article is to be about Islam and not Muhammad? No. Muhammad was the founder of Islam and therefore its important to talk about him in the Islam page. In the same way, FFI was founded by Ali Sina and an article on FFI will have a lot of information on Ali Sina, due to this same reason. Ali Sina and FFI are both notable now that we have the external 3rd party links there now. --Matt57 03:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article has a new scope now

Previously we could only talk about Ali Sina. Now we can talk about anything else in the website so hopefully the article can be expanded now.--Matt57 17:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alexa rankings

I don't care whether Alexa rankings are mentioned or not, but as long as they are not actually used to establish notability, there's nothing wrong with them. Even the article on Wikipedia mentions Alexa rankings. — coelacan talk — 16:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles about faithfreedom.org

Articles about faithfreedom.org that are not external links should be mentioned here instead of within the external links section of the artilce. For example, the mention of faithfreedom in Richard Dawkins' book should not be mentioned in the extenal links section of this page, considering it is not a link to any website. Specificly, I am talking about this:

Faith Freedom International is listed in the appendix of Richard Dawkins book The God Delusion as one of the few Islamic related "...Friendly address(es), for individuals needing support in escaping from religion" (page 379).

--Sefringle 03:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using copyvio claim for speedy deletion tag is wrong.

The speedy deletion due to copyright violation tag has been added by an editor who has had a long history of controversial edits with this article. It was reverted as suspected vandalism by another editor. I agree with them. The article fails to meet any of the criteria for speedy deletion on the ground of copyright violation, namely, was the material was copied from another website which does not have a license compatible with Wikipedia, or was there no non-infringing content in the page history worth saving or was the infringement was introduced at once by a single person rather than created organically on wiki and then copied by another website such as one of the many Wikipedia mirrors or was the uploader not asserting permission (for images: no assertion aside from tags) or fair use, or the assertion is questionable.

Given the history of the tagging editor with respect to this article I do not feel the tag was added correctly so I am reverting this edit.

Please explain exactly where the copyright violations have occured. Ttiotsw 10:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ali and Zakir Naik

Hello,

In the Debates Section Regarding Dr. Zakir Naik, I noticed the claim:

"Zakir Naik also replied to Ali Sina. But Ali Sina did not mention a reply, for unknown reasons."

Can whoever added this please clarify on these points:


1. How do you know that Dr. Naik himself replied to Ali?

2. That Ali did not reply?

These claims need to be sourced in order to remain in the article (I think). One would think that since Ali has been candid on all communicae regarding this so far; in the absence of evidence that either of these claims is true, one could surmise that Ali 'did not mention it' because it did not happen?

The Cited Source for this Claim (reference 12) makes absolutely no mention of Ali recieving a response from Dr. Naik himself; only that representatives of the web site replied to Ali Sina.

Just after some clarifcation on this sentence. Thanks in advance.

Jigsaw_Psyche 03:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree these claims are false. Zakir did not reply to Ali. Only the following is known:
-Ali Sina wrote to Zakir's website email address (he published this email communication in his site and this is the only record of what happened)
-Zakir's team replied saying he doesnt have time and does not do internet debates
Thats the only stuff we know. Everything else should be taken out.--Matt57 04:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article need cleanup per the AfD discussions

I added the {{cleanup-afd}} template because (a) it is 100% true, and (b) most of the "references" in this article are just external links to the subject's website ... it is still lacking reliable 3rd-party coverage to meet WP:V for WP:N ... many should be deleted per WP:EL#Links normally to be avoided - Links mainly intended to promote a website ... and the one for ranking.com requires registration to see the subject's PageRank, so that one's Right Out per the same ... because of the plethora of self-references, this article has the appearance of simply being a vehicle to draw traffic to the subject's website. —72.75.85.159 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This has been extensively discussed in the Afd debate a month ago. The sites mentioned now are acceptable, and prove notability. --Sefringle 06:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Adding a cleanup template is NOT "vandalism", and surviving an AfD with No Consensus is certainly NOT the same as "now are acceptable, and prove notability" ... I am restoring the tag, and if you remove it again, we'll see what the closing administrator has to say about it. (They should have added the template in the first place.) --72.75.85.159 07:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
1) The decision was to keep the article, and there was no mentioning of any cleanup tag. 2) Please log into you main account so that we know who we are talking to. -- Karl Meier 12:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The external links present now are notable. They werent there before when the article was deleted. Notability has been established. --Matt57 13:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

Please don't remove sourced statements made by Sina on his website. If you believe that they lack context, then feel free to rpovide context, I am not sttopping you from that.

Also, please take a look at WP:RS#Extremist_sources. It says "...they [extremist sources] should only be used as sources about themselves and their activities...".

Thus whatever FFI says about the students of Javed Ghamidi, and letter to Dr. Zakir Naik is only an allegation. FFI is not a reliable source.Bless sins 19:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In his/her edit on 14:08, 1 February 2007, Mak82hyd accuses my edit of being "undiscussed versions". Yet on 19:53, 27 January 2007, I made my post above justifying my addition/removals. Since then no one has bothered to make any discussion. I am re-inserting my edits, and if there is a problem with them, please say so on talk page.Bless sins 17:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem with the content that Bless Sins want to add is that it mention some of the things that Muhammad/Islam has been accused of being, but not why Ali Sina has accused of him/it being these things. To include it out of it's context makes what he says seems like pointless attacks, and that is of course not acceptable. -- Karl Meier 20:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
SO what's wrong with including the "why Ali Sina has accused of him/it being these things". Please feel free to provide the context, if there is one.Bless sins 21:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
I just mentioned to you, what is wrong with what you insist on including. Anyway, it is you and not me that want to add the disputed content, so it is up to you to make it acceptable and not out-of-context. -- Karl Meier 21:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Karl Meier, this is my argument: I see no context to these statements. If there is bring it forth and post it on the talk page (or on the article directly). How can you ask me to post something that doesn't exist?Bless sins 21:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to an Ex-Muslim's site

This line 'ex-Muslim's site trashes Muhammad' is simply a direct abuse of wikipedian so called scholaristic artical. The civilized words could be used such as 'rebuttals' or 'refutes'. And even these words also would be used as refuting some concept or providing rebuttal to some allegation and it could not be used something like "trashing someone". VirtualEye 09:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Factual accuracy is just as important. Tha article is titled "ex-Muslim's site trasher Muhammad". "ex-Muslim's site trashes" is therefore an inaccurate title.--Sefringle 21:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
If you think that this is "abusive", what about his comments that Muslims are "bullies"?Bless sins 21:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sina not notable as per previous AFD

Sina not notable according to last AFD so i am removing his stuff only FFI stuff can be there. what he said or think does not matter, if its on his site let ppl go and read there plz. and how can we write from the same source of which we are talking about.???? Mak82hyd 00:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

His website is about his views, so his views do matter. Instead of deleting, it might be better to rewrite this section trying to omit the words "Ali Sina."--Sefringle 04:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
this article seems to be about FFI in some areas, but then tries to mask content from the deleted article on Ali Sina as relevant here . i didn't know websites "believed" anything, and this may be an indication that content from Ali Sina has been replicated here, with his name simply substituted with FFI. the lead needs work too, as the lengthy quote describing itself is no more than self-adulatory. perhaps that block quote can be relocated elsewhere and we can concentrate on writing a brief and neutral lead about the website. ITAQALLAH 16:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The AfD regarding didn't say anything about the notability of Ali Sina. The article was deleted for other reasons, and the closing administrator mentioned that. -- Karl Meier 07:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
This claim of notability is nonsense and you know that as others have repeatedly reverted. Please read the closing comments of the AfD [5] which specifically stated that the delete was due to lack of reliable sources and specifically,... "The issue is still reliable sources, and the project simply cannot ignore this fundamental requirement. If actual reliable sources can be found outside his own website which document his existence then by all means re-create." - the point was thus that if we had reliable sources that document his existence then we could re-create not that he was not notable. We have a number of articles that indicate his existence e.g. [6] as a transcript makes me presume he is human and not a "ghost" as detractors are want to propose. We have not re-created the article so as to focus efforts on just the FFI article so please give it a rest. Ttiotsw 00:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
er.. yes.. notability is established through independant reliable sources. it's clear what the closing admin meant, and admins Centrx and JzG among others understood it in exactly the same way at the deletion review: lack of reliable sources indicates non-notability, regardless of how many e-fans he has. as i said before: if you don't have enough independant sources assessing the individual (trivial mention is insufficient), then it suggests he is quite simply not notable enough a personality. when more 'reliable sources' do pop up, it may indicate that he has passed the threshold of notability. the above comments do not address my concern, this article should not be replicating material from the deleted Ali Sina article. you see, this is where the required reliable sources come in: we use them to build the article and provide relevant information about the subject. the discussion on "views on other faiths" is convoluted, confusing (the subject switches between the website and "he" i.e. Sina), and misleading: a number of FFI writers don't share the same views about other religions as Sina. the first two critiques actually apply to numerous sections in this articles. an easy solution to this would be to cease providing shelter for irrelevant material about Sina being presented as directly relevant to the FFI organisation. ITAQALLAH 00:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
You seem to know a lot about Faith Freedom. Do you post to the forums? Arrow740 04:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
While some of Ali Sina's views on other faiths may not be the views of all the contributers to FFI, most of the contributers to FFI do agree with his views on Islam.--Sefringle 04:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Canadia 02:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)==Removed content per WP:BLP== I have removed some content per WP:BLP. Prior to my removal there were allegations against Safdar Nagori, and Haseeb ul-Hasan Siqqiqui, that were presented as fact. WP:BLP#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material states "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability,".

FFI is an extremist source, that can't be considered reliable source. Presenting what FFI says as FACT is a violation of WP:BLP. Also note, "Where the information is derogatory and unsourced or poorly sourced, the three-revert rule does not apply. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages."

Making any sort of allegation against any living person, anywhere on wikipedia is unacceptable.Bless sins 18:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually this time I agree. We should mention the death threat allegations and send interested parties to the website. However likely they are alleging an illegal act by someone is a serious libel and we should avoid it without substantial evidence. --BozMo talk 09:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes i agree too, In some fourmn FFI states that it received a death threat via email from such and such person from such and such email address. I had sent emails to those email addresses verify those threats. However i never received a reply. I belive that anythnig that cannot be subtantiated by others, apart from the interested parties shouldnot be included in an enclycopedia. In this current example. FFI says it received a death threat in an email and the information is posted on its own website. One cannot determine if this is true of false. The veracity of such allegations cant be determined, does exist any such threats or such people who sent the threats. Who these people are ? and if the threat is still valid and if it is a threat for which the legal enforcement agencies are aware of and providing concern and protection.

There is a lot in this article which is misleading and violates many rules. Most of it is for advertisement purposes. Some of the editors are biased and any edits keep reverting back to what they think is should potrayed. No where in the article does it mention that FFI owner Mr. Sina has a muslim family, that Mr. Sina says out of the billions of muslims only a few are bad & rest of them are good people. It advertises that FFI is baned in 'Some'muslims countries and cites only Saudi Arabia. However it fails to point out that the website is actually located in Iran ! and everyone knows what is Iran like. http://www.whois.net/whois_new.cgi?d=faithfreedom&tld=org Z2qc1

Please provide below the exact phrase that suggests FFI is located in Iran.Bless sins 21:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


Bless since; below is the exact phrase that suggests that FFI is located in Iran. Registrant Organization:Faith Freedom Foundation Registrant Street1:100 Kharabat Registrant Street2: Registrant Street3: Registrant City:Qom Registrant State/Province:Qom Registrant Postal Code:14226 Registrant Country:IR Registrant Phone:+98.1234567 Registrant Phone Ext.: Registrant FAX: Registrant FAX Ext.: Registrant Email:ffisubmission@gmail.com Admin ID:10E04F9022EBA8BB Admin Name:Faith Freedom Admin Organization:Faith Freedom Foundation

Z2qc1, whois.net can be easily hooked. It's not a proof.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 19:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it ? well, i am always up for the idea that internet resources, for references are not reliable. If whois. net can be hooked (what ever that means) then FFI.org can be hooked too! I dont mind agreeing to both. If whois.net data is not reliable then how can we hold reliable 1. an unknown, invisible male/female or group, printing words on a page over the internet 2. claiming to receive death threats from muslims, 3. claiming that of the billions of muslims only few are bad, 4. claiming islam should be irradicated 5. claiming to have muslim parents and relatives, 6. claiming to have prayed behind a muslim whoom he respects, also respects his/her grandmother who was a very religious muslim who knew all of the Quran etc. 7. claiming that jesus existed but christianity is a fairy tale. 8. claiming etc etc etc

There are so many inconsistencies that one may say ........FFI and its promoters are hooked!!! but then we dont remove FFI from wiki on that basis. I am surprised that you guys had a problem with its location why so ?? Z2qc1

[edit] Views on Other Faiths

This section is totally anti-Christian. My assumption is that some moron must have tried to smear Christianity as a sort of vendetta because he/she thought Ali Sina was some kind of convert to Christianity. This section is a dastardly and unprovoked attack on Christianity itself (who cares if its sourced? Just look at the way the information is presented most of the section is attacking Christianity) Would anybody like to debate this? Canadia 02:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So edit. Arrow740 03:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

"Anti-Christian" is not grounds for exclusion. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 02:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Canadia, I wouldnt mind if this section was reduced. Ali's focus is on Islam, not Christianity. --Matt57 02:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand canadia, if a stub in the article is against christianity it bothers you, while the entire article is against islam does not. wiki is not running a project against islam or pro christianity nor vice versa. Its a shame that someone should feel happy if islam is being attacked and sad if christianity is attacked. Most of the editors here for this article are atheist or just against islam and are using wiki not as an encyclopedia but rather an a source for advertising their websites.199.180.17.10 02:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If you know of websites that have been linked which match the Wikipedia criteria of Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided then please highlight them for us. I know that some websites that have nonsense try to get added now and then but these usually get reverted (e.g. www.faithfreedom.com is an example). Ttiotsw 09:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Faithfreeom's views on other religions is very notable. What do you mean by "reduced"? All of the imformation is sourced.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 02:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Kirby, less than 1% of the website's focus is on other religions. This article should reflect that. Perhaps you just want to be sure that this article talks about Islam as less as possible. Sorry, thats not going to happen.--Matt57 02:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Since Faithfreedom focuses on Islam, we need to give more of a focus of this article to the views on Islam, and less to other faiths. --Sefringle 02:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. But Wikipedia is not a paper dictionary encyclopedia, so why not have both? Instead of making the "views on other faiths" section smaller, why not make the Islam sections bigger? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 03:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I would be interested to see you do that. Arrow740 03:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Kirby, yes please try to expand the Islam section, thats a good idea. I might look into that too. --Matt57 03:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll try, but let's see what Canadia thinks about this proposal. I'll be editing it here. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 03:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too many Faithfreedom links

This article is relying upon a very large number of http://www.faithfreedom.org/ citations themselves. This presents a problem for neutrality. I would strongly suggest that these be thinned out if this article is ever to be taken seriously. As things stand now with 31 links leading from this article to Faith Freedom's website the article is a virtual Faith Freedom link farm. (→Netscott) 19:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

indeed. if this website truly does pass WP:WEB, we should be able to report objectively about the subject using reliable secondary sources. i do not believe that is the case. ITAQALLAH 20:07, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course i agree. The entire article is structured more like an advertisement. 34!!! or more self links. links that take you to its own site or links that take you to some other site where it has its own debates are hosted. I am surprised why so many links of FFI. Notice that most take you to a debate which occured. Now you have to read and read and read the entire ramble between two people to find the quotation/citation in the article. Never seen such an article which has self links to prove it self. Z2qc1

i have tagged the article accordingly, as per the above comments on lack of secondary source usage. also, the external links provided at the bottom apparently establishing FFI's notability are not reliable sources, and in a number of instances the coverage is trivial. i am not convinced that this article meets WP:WEB standards. ITAQALLAH 00:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

NETSCOT; what makes you think this article is a serious article? This is only an advertisement to increase traffic. You were correct to point out the FF link farm. If you follow every ff page you will find at least one link of itself. If you find external links you will find those too have a link to FF ayee. check the frontpage ref. Namely an outside link, but then it has a link to FF. I had read on this talk page about such linking and found that links and links and especially cross links help increase traffic generated to a site. So the article is more of a traffic generator for FF ayee.Z2qc1

[edit] WP:WEB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WEB Wikipedia articles are not advertisements is an official policy of long standing. Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links.....

"...our policy on attribution to reliable sources, and that primary sources alone are not sufficient to establish notability.............content are deemed notable, based on the following critera..... includes reliable published works in all forms, .............except for the following: ...Trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply report the internet address.....brief summary of the nature of the content or the publication of internet addresses and site...." Even if an entire website meets the notability criteria, its components (forums, articles, sections) are not necessarily notable and deserving of their own separate article WP:WEB

The current FFI article has 47 references, of which 35 refer to itself, i.e FFI.com, 7 refer to FFI rankings like alexa etc. 5 refer to other sources. 3 external links: The first link being FFI itself and the second link being the old FFI page. 6 links for notability of which 1 link has no mention of FFI or Mr. Sina.[7] Another is a reference to a fourmn article again, cross linked with each other. What exactly is this?? and why is it still here ? If here, why does any atempt to clean it gets reverted? Why has deletion got no consensus. Z2qc1

[edit] Hacked

It's down now, the homepage now is simply the text "It works!" This seems to happen often. We should try to make note of that. Arrow740 01:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, unless that message changes to something like PWNZERD I don't think it has been hacked. This is a typical message one gets after doing a proper installation of certain kinds of software. (→Netscott) 02:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
It could be. It's been down for about a day, and often is. Hacking is probably involved somehow. Arrow740 06:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Please excuse our housekeeping while we work on getting our sites and subdomains back online.

The FFI Staff

I cant believe the comments the PRO FFI can pass and then wish to include such audacious stuff. I am talking about this particluar piece above. Arrow creates a sub set by the title "HACKED" this implicitly states that the website has been hacked. IS IT ?? Then he states that this phenomena 'the homepage now is simply the text "It works!" This seems to happen often" and that "we should try to make a note of that". Now Wiki will carry a note saying that "according to FFI staff they are busy doing some "house keeping" on the site. the give a reference of FFI.com/housekeeping. WOW another reference hey look this site FFI is a great notable site it now has 32 references. I wont be surprised to see the housekeeping of FFI will eventually raise the number of members it has and the number of people actually reading stuff on the site. remember there were only around 1700 members and of the many visitors it had the average time spend reading a page was like less than 30 seconds. Z2qc1

This is the talk page, not the article itself. Arrow740 00:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
mind WP:NPA--Sefringle 00:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for saying things in the above manner. According to Wiki policy WP:NPA, i should have said Arrow you comment about hacking is wrong because FFI states that its doing some "housekeeping" on its systems.Thanks for notifying me Sefringle.Z2qc1

Seems to be back up.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 08:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lead discussion

The FFI main page says:

We strive for the unity of Mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can't be reformed, but it can be eradicated.

I'm merely using their own words. Matt, initially agreed with eradicate, but now you say it is a NPOV word? Fine, we'll just use eliminate then.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 06:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reworded the lead sentence to have only their stated goals. The rest is the usual polemic you get. I'm neutral here; all religions are more or less bad for humanity and Islam is no exception. Ttiotsw 08:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes thats a better goal, thats what they've said explictly. thanks --Matt57 11:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I dont get this POV of the site. Does it imply that if Islam is eradicated then the world will be a better place to live in? How can this be logical. Islam came into existence 1400 year ago. Does this mean that all the problem of humanity began after this time. FFI people are forgetting the long slavery of the jews under the Pharohs of Egypt, the persecution of christ himself and then the christians by the Jews and the Romans. Currently theplight of the African Nations, Saddam and his rule over his own people. The muslim country of Bangladesh is divided among itself and if you see (on Youtube)the merciless fighting that has taken place between them. FFI is just another cult i think like Benny hinn who gets millions donated or like the man who calls himself Jesus and gets millions donated.

Anyways, what i wished to bring here to discuss is that this article needs cleaning. One particular point is being said in verbose sentences. Take a look at the edit i did regarding the law suit and the threats. I was surprised that i summarized all the info in just two or three sentences. The other thing is , there was a sentence about some $25,000 reward. I looked up the reference and i had a hard time finding where exactly it was being said. My point is that its difficult when we have a reference of a particular debate that took place and then have the user go through the entire debate. We should rather give the page number or atleast a couple of quoted words so it can be found easily. If a comment or fact is stated usually a page number is given along with the books name etc to identify its source. If we could do it for this article i would think its good.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Z2qc1 (talk • contribs).

In rough summary what FFI says is that while the rest of the world has modernized and became more tolerant of other cultures and religons, Islam has prevented such action from occuring in the muslim world. Basicly, they are saying Islam has no place in the modern world, because it is backward. Does that clarify their message?--Sefringle 17:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats your understanding. Where in any article does FFI refer to mordernism .Then in that case what FFI says is false or naive. While the rest of the world has become mordernized??? WHAT PART f the world do you live. do make a check on stats as in what percentage of the world lives a mordernized life. Tolerant of each other: Mr. Sina cant tolerate a muslim and says that a muslim will go to hell.

In Ireland there are still fights between the protestants and the catholic. In India the Hindus have recent burned to death a christian missionary family and its belongings. Africa is under seige not by islam but by greed of money and power. Check these violent behaviour http://religiousfreaks.com/2007/01/04/beware-christian-vandals-on-the-loose/ http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/assam-pastor-beaten/ http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/india-state-closes-church-for-singing-loud-amid-violence-against-believers/ http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus29.html

Islam has "prevented" something. That means for 1400 years something has been prevented by Islam. Is that a pro or con. What do you mean by backward???—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Z2qc1 (talk • contribs).

Please see WP:NOT#FORUM, where it says "Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with folks about Wikipedia-related topics on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles. There are a number of early-stage projects that attempt to use a wiki for discussion and debate." Your opinions of Ali Sina or what you think of what he stands for doesn't belong here if it doesn't impact the writing of the encyclopedia article.--Sefringle 21:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
See here. These are not my words, they are FFI's. --Sefringle 21:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah you are right. I just got in the wave and anyways. I get it this is not a fourmn. I mistook the above as your comment and not FFI's. So i went around to explain how you can think this way. I sincerely thought you feel this way and so it does affect how you will edit and revert so i had to makethe point. shall remember this is not a fourmn.Z2qc1

[edit] Death threats

I had edited the death threats sub section, it keeps getting reverted without any discussion from the reverter, i dont understand why? The earlier section had 183 words. the word Ali sina, FFI, website, threat being repeated over and over again. The following is my edit i wish to place. Please tell me if i have left out any revelant information. "FFI founder claims to have received death threats. One which includes a reward of 25,000 $ for killing him. It was also threatened with a law suit, however the law suit never took a factual form." Please idicate any important points i have left out.Z2qc1

The Infidel Guy has interviewed Ali Sina but the relevant program has a disturbing claim (taken from http://www.thedebatehour.com/list_of_shows.html ..."Tape 253 - The Psychological Profile of Muhammad (THIS PROGRAM REMOVED AS ALI SINA HAS BEEN RECEIVING DEATH THREATS.)" Ttiotsw 02:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats how a reference shoud be. Its an outside ref, it has been referenced correctly. Its easy to find and source. It no longer exists is a different matter. Imagine a reference of a book which has been burned and no one can acess it. YET i agree to this reference and its an improvement on this otherwise advertisement of FFI Z2qc1

Again i tried to find the specific quote where the prize of 20,000 $ is listed for the death threat. it seemd like an editor did some edit on the reference and so it may have become easy to source it.BUT ITS NOT Its like a 20's something pages of web page and a reader is expected to find out by reading through the rambles of arguments and counter arguments and counter counter arguments etc. Please be like Ttiotsw and have a correct reference. Z2qc1

Thankyou on that and I do like the challenge of digging stuff up. Found that Ali Sina's death threat issuer is the same one that issued one against Sania Mirza. Have updated that Wikipedia article to reflect the name of the "scholar" (I understand it from the reference [8] to be a certain Syed Yousaf Bin, the chief patron of the Ulema Board, in Hyderabad). Still have to do more as the link between the two is from [9] and that is simply an email published on that site with no editorial input. Really need a picture of that article in the "Muslim Jagaran" that says 10,00,000 rupees (i.e. Ten lakhs). Ttiotsw 21:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Titsow: The ref you gave does not say Sania Mirza received a death threat. Plus we should have a ref of the publication who published the threat andnot Mr. Sina's statement that he heard something via sound waves.Z2qc1

Search the word "million" on that page. --Matt57 20:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Cool!! You guys are improving now. However remember it is still not a reference. Because Ali Sina says Ali sina was threatened. A reference would be where a third party says based upon a resource other than Ali Sina, that Ali Sina was threatened. Else, it becomes more of a negative publicity. Have you guys ever back checked if there does exist such a threat? or should readers be expected to believe what Ali Sina says with regards to himself. by the way Mr. Titsow you made a valid point. "that is simply an email published on that site with no editorial input" Most of FFI articles are only emails published on the site. There is no actual editorial input.Z2qc1

I am sorry to say that this is not acceptable. I just checked the reference which Editor Matt indicated and there i found that it is Ali Sina who alleges that he received a death threat. HOW can a person claim something which is not proven and that 'claim' itself becomes a reference??? this is only negative publicity.in fact the ref cited actually says 'I have received words that according to a Hyderabad (India) local news magazine' So the correct reference should be the page number on the magazine where the threat is published and the year of publication. NOT JUST MR. SINA's statement which he heard from a third person. Just to remind you Mr.Sina gives a reference of the verse in the quran when he tries to refute it. He gives a ref to some hadith about Prophet Muhammed. He doesnt state something about Prophet Muhammed and gives a ref to his own website. Shouldnt this article follow the same referencing style(if not Havard APA referencing) Z2qc1

[edit] Members

I had found that in Feb 2007, the website had 1200 members "The site has 1280 members as of February 23, 2007.[10]since its inception a few years ago." Recently the website went though "housekeeping" and the member list has now increased to around 8,000.as on April 07. [11]. Could this be used as a notability factor or can we say that its being doctored and its beguiling readers and users. Can i include this fact in the main article ??? May be i am wrong now or was wrong earlier. Z2qc1 Signed after being notified Z2qc1

Sign your posts. FFI doesnt have a "membership". A forum member is not a member of the website or organization. --Matt57 13:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Membership is understood to be registering with the website in order to be able to contribute in its forumn. So members are those who have registered with the site in order to contribut or comment on the forumn.The site (old and new both) required users to register with them in order to enable contributing or commenting on the forumn. Membership does not mean that a person pays a fee and gets a membership card. Rather membership here is meant registerd users with the site. As i had said earlier that internet references cant be held reliabe. Especially such overwhelming self adressed internet ref's like the current article (34 - 38 out of 47), because information can change eaily and if desired tamperd with easiy. Similarly the old reference which states the member being 1200 is no longer acessible now (after the said "housekeeping" by the FFI staff. Z2qc1

No, like I've told you many times, membership does not mean registering with the forum. Tell me now: If a spammer registers in the forum, is he a member of FFI? FFI does not have a membership. Is that so hard to understand? Um, if I register on CNN.com to comment on their website, am I a member of CNN now? --Matt57 17:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are bing too hard on me. My bad, i should have said registered users and not members. I thought i made it clear who a member is. so if a spammer registers to the site he becomes a person who can contribute to the site by writting in forumns etc. You can call him a member/registerd user/regular user. So when he enters his user name he is counted as one user/registered user/member/registered member etc. FFI is not a website rather more of a fourmn.. Yes if CNN was a fourmn you will become a member of the forumn. If you registerd with CNN for a poll they will count you as one. and say one man (matt) voted. Similarly FII, when you register with it says we have 1200 members/registered people/ in feb, 07 and 8,000 in March 07. Anyways, i am Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hope this is clear now. I cant explain any better. so the point is how come Feb 07 there were 1200 users who contributed/commented etc whil now in april 07 there are 8,000 such people. Z2qc1

This is also the reason why FFI never spoke about its members or registered users before rather only of visitors which it can increase phenomenally by cross linking, power linking etc. You will find such comments in this talk page itself.

[edit] Challenge

the challenge section has been removed as there is nothing to suggest this comical 'challenge' is remotely notable. it is through secondary sources that we ascertain what about this topic merits mention - we only report what others have reported on the subject. ITAQALLAH 02:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

If the challenge is not notable, lets take out the Debates too. They too arent notable. Also not notable are Ali Sina's views on Islam and all the rest of the information in the article. Right? Or wrong? We could just delete the whole thing saying that none of the content is notable. What do you think? --Matt57 13:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
absolutely. we use secondary sources to write articles and determine what merits mention, not primary. whatever the secondary sources report, is what we report. we don't report about the Qur'an using the Qur'an itself. ITAQALLAH 15:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
So why arent you deleting most of the article? Its all Primary source, right? Why are you holding back?--Matt57 16:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Given the proponderance and reliance upon links to FFI (34 out of a total of 41?) for this article, much like the Ali Sina article, article deletion shouldn't be out of the question. (→Netscott) 16:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Matt, there's no point engaging in warring where half the article will be constantly removed and restored. i have removed one section accordingly, and if there are no objections brought forward by the article contributors on talk, then we can proceed further. ITAQALLAH 16:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Give the exact Wikipedia policy according to which you deleted the content. --Matt57 17:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
see WP:V: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", or WP:ATT: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true" we write articles using independent reliable sources, and should certainly never rely so heavily on primary sources as has been done here. in what way are sections such as 'Death threats' or 'The Website's Challenge' worthy of mention? as said previously, we report about topics in the way other reliable, third-party sources have reported about them, and "If an article topic has no reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." also see WP:RS, and the explanatory essay WP:IS. ITAQALLAH 00:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

If there has to be a cencus for removal then i shall give my preference for removal of the article. Till then i shall try to have it structured such that it does comply to wiki's policies etc.Z2qc1

Agreed. But we can simply delete it now, and then have it at a user's subpage to clean it up, and then when it respects Wikipedia's policies, the article can be recreated in the main namespace.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 04:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references

Currently 28 of the 46 references (60%) use faithfreedom.org. Compare this to other articles about websites:

Where are the secondary sources that are used to claim that this site passes WP:WEB standards? --Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 06:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

This is utter nonsense; you present the sites of two listed "media" companies (Google owns Google and Youtube, and MySpace ultimately owned by News Corporation) which happen to be some of the worlds largest "media" companies (News Corp is USD 25 billion and Google USD 10 Billion revenues for last reported years). (Did I mention "media" enough: if media companies can't get other notable mentions then they are not in the right business). What exactly are you trying to prove ?. By Google and News Corp standards just about every other web site in the world is an insignificant blip. Please show common sense and do not compare these multi-billion dollar funded sites with a small community effort. Ttiotsw 19:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
apparently, these. most of the links seem to be extremely trivial in mention, while none quite seem to be reliable sources. ITAQALLAH 18:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
There are no problem with these. They are not trivial; what are you expecting ? NBC coverage of a Superbowl advert for FFI ?. Let's have a look at something smaller e.g. Wikipedia article on Islamonline.net. This organisation claims 200 employees work full-time and the website also has more than 1500 writers and yet in our article it has 6 references, 4 to own site, 1 to Guardian paper and 1 to Alexa !. Now that is trivial. Ttiotsw 19:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
the Guardian article, a reliable source, mentions the website and its activities in full detail, over several thorough paragraphs. i believe i brought up other reliable sources in the article's AfD. trivial mention would be briefly mentioning the website or summarising its content, see WP:WEB for further information. we should be able to write the article based upon third party reliable sources, and i am not convinced that any such sources exist. if they do, i invite you to rewrite the article accordingly. ITAQALLAH 22:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Ttiotsw, just because other crap exists doesn't mean that this article should stay. IslamOnline, if it doesn't meet WP:WEB, ought to be deleted too.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 22:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

A good analogy. Look at the Islamonline.net article. Does it look like its an advertisement? No its just plain info about a site It has 6 ref and 4 of its own. Its a bad idea but then one can excuse that because those references are being used not for an advertisement. Any sane individual can understand that 4 own ref's on a wiki article dont become a power linking tool. HOWEVER having 34 and more self (FFayee)links as ref's and the rest of the refs have embedded links within the links shows that wiki is being used as a power linking tool, advertisement tool.Z2qc1

A Better analogy for editors to compare. Everyone knows Robert Spencer. In terms of notability himself and his site. Where doe Mr. Sina stand ??? I assume far below in terms of notability. Now forget Islamonline or google etc. Though to the point, a few of the editors did not understand editor Kirby's or editor ITAQALLAH's argument. Here is how i compare look at wiki article on Robert Spencer and Jihad watch. Robert Spencer's has 20 or more refs and only 5 are his own site. and Jihad watch article hardly looks like an advertisement it looks just like an enclycopedia article.Z2qc1

That more secondary references would improve the article is a reason to do just that: Improving the references that is used in the article. However, it is not a reason to delete important information or to delete an entire article that is clearly discussing a notable subject. Other articles such as the one on Slashdot only use primary sources, and it is obvious that it would benefit from some attention, but like this one, there is no way that valid information should be removed form it, or that it should be deleted. -- Karl Meier 09:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
removing such sections is in accordance with WP:ATT:"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true." in principle, we may use primary sources to a certain extent. it is unacceptable for the article to base itself upon them substantially. what's to say absurd sections like the website's "challenge" and "death threats" against the (proven) non-notable founder deserve coverage on Wikipedia? we require those independent third party reliable sources to be able to write this article. ITAQALLAH 15:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I think you are mis-using WP:ATT. Read that policy which you picked out one sentence and forgot the ones either side of it (I love quote-mines !),
"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments." etc etc etc
Thus I would argue that paragraph is primarily concerned with WP:OR. Nothing of this article is original research. Original research is, oh I don't know, lets try saying that Shia allows sodomy, allegedly. Now that is WP:OR and my source isn't very reliable. What is in this article clearly is not WP:OR unless you could claim one of us also writes for FFI: I don't, haven't joined the forum in any way and am not interested in the site. Now reading that policy closely it is asking if the material is attributed to a reliable published source and thus what we are arguing is if FFI is a WP:RS but as we are writing about FFI it really is a matter of using primary sources. This is allowed though the preference is obviously with secondary sources. The thing is though saying that "x says y" and linking to 'x' isn't intrinsically a problem as long as you stick in "claims..." or similar wording. What I can't say is "x says y" and provide NO link at all; that is what WP:ATT and WP:OR is about. Ttiotsw 17:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
WP:ATT is a merger of OR, V and RS, and i think the lead reflects that. the sentence with or without the surrounding passages, implies that we include material if we can report on it using secondary reliable sources. see also the above quote from WP:V. as said before, i think removing such sections which are clearly not relevant to FFI's notability (hence the argument for its use of primary sources is weakened), and it is perhaps the only remedy to what has become an article spammed with primary sources. the wisdom behind requiring secondary reliable sources as per WP:WEB guidelines is that we can then use these sources to construct the article accordingly, else you get a primary-source-spammed article which is inherently unencyclopedic (take a look at the state of the Zakir Naik article a few months ago). for us as editors to determine what aspects of the website merit mention incorporates a large dose of subjective judgement. nothing stops an individual stating up a section about the FFI forum or some other obscure aspect about the website or its founder. Ttiotsw, please find some independent third party reliable sources with which we can rewrite this article and rectify this inappropriate reliance on the website itself. ITAQALLAH 17:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../f/a/i/Talk%7EFaith_Freedom_International_bf3d.html"