Talk:Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme

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"The Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) is the governing body of Grand Prix motorcycle racing."

really its the governing body of "motorcycle sport" rather than GP's and racing (some forms of sport are explcitly not racing)

"There are five motorcycle-racing disciplines that FIM covers, encompassing 34 world championships and prizes: road racing, motocross, trial, enduro, and track racing."

where do rally's (eg dakar) fit into that ???

[edit] UK / GB in motorcycling

In 1904, when the FIM was set up, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was the political entity for which the AutoCycle Union was a founding member. Your change to Great Britain is inaccurate because it refers specifically to a geographical entity that even by your own comment ACU represents just GB (inc. IOM and Channel Islands) does not include the IOM, Channel Islands or Northern Ireland. What you most likely really wanted to refer to was the current political entity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but that was NOT the political entity in which the ACU was a founding member of the FIM. I could understand that you might want to refer to the current political entity that the ACU encompasses but that is not what is being stated here.

I don't think it is necessary, as we are recording history here, but perhaps we need to state: "The British AutoCycle Union was one of the founding members but now it is the governing body of motorcycle sport in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that includes the Isle of Man and Channel Islands."

If you wish to reply please do so on the FIM talk page. ww2censor 02:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

OK i wasn't very clear in the reason for my change. In motorcycling the ACU was established in something like 1904 (i.e. before Irish independence circa 1918-20). However the ACU was only formed with he remit to take care of motorcycling in Great Britain. All of Ireland was specifically run under the separate MCUI (i.e. all Ireland) - this was pre Irish independence which was in the context of the pre WW1 era, not realistically on the cards, although home rule was. Thus in motorcycling we have the strange situation that Northern Ireland and southern Ireland compete as one "nation" in international motorcycling and national team competitions. In contrast the ACU also represent the "crown dependencies" of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands - yet the ACU has no part in the integral part of the UK that is northern Ireland. It one of those very wired quarks of sports history that has failed to keep up with international relations. Pickle 17:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC) (Doing a masters degree in International Relations and an ACU official!

So while the Great Britain we are both referring to was the political entity United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the ACU was only dealing with Great Britain but not Ireland pre-1922 and since then too. Curious indeed. I had been seeing the red inked ACU link while writing several Isle of Man TT race result pages in which I try to include some details of the organisation and incidents of the year, so decided to start the AutoCycle Union page. It sound like you will be able to expand the ACU page better than I will rather than relying on the ACU website for my data. You might also be able to help regarding some of the ACU involvement in the TT races too. Incidentally, somewhere I still have my old circa 1967 ACU approved and stamped pudding-bowl helmet. Cheers ww2censor 04:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you've got it ;) In the context of the TT (and IOM GP) as i understand (I'm an off road person, not a road racer) the TT is one of the few event where the ACU is the actual promoter. In just about every other event the ACU is merely the governing body - supplying a steward (or through its regional branches - centres), getting the insurance, etc, etc. I find the problem writing about subject i know a lot about is that its very hard to write that knowledge down in an encyclopedic fashion, when I'm researching something for the first time it seams easier! Please fire away with some questions and i should be able to find an answer (hopefully!). One of the big things the ACU has been a world leader in is "approving" helmet for competition use (as opposed to British standards, etc for leisure use) - the stickering system has been in use for some time and the colour of the sticker and the type of badge/logo tells the technical officer weather the helmet is suitable for that competition (ie Road Race has the highest standard, while it can be lower for off road as your not so fast, but there is the added issue of lots of dirt). Pickle 18:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A related question

While doing some Isle of Man TT editing I came across the List of Grand Prix motorcycle racing seasons as I was also writing a biography for Artie Bell a Belfast motorcycle racer. However I noticed that in different places his name is associated with both Irish and British flags. You can find them from this page. Based on your statement above re ACU and MCUI, which do you think is correct? I would say Irish, especially as the Irish Post Office issued stamps depicting famous Irish motorcyclist that were: Stanley Woods, Artie Bell, Alec Bennett, Robert Dunlop & Joey Dunlop some of whom were from Northern Ireland. ww2censor 17:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of what flag a Northern Irish rider is depicted next to of of course of some controversy/confusion - often by people unaware of the complexities involved. Their nationality is British (but IIRC anyone born on the island of Ireland is also eligible for Irish citizenship...) so sometimes they are shown next to the Union Jack. They are also sometime shown with the old Ulster flag (the red fist one), and sometimes the Irish tricolour is used (yet they are not / not representing "Southern Ireland). I think I've seen other flag used to try and convey the fact that its all Ireland not just the south. Its a very complex issue, which i wouldn't like to offer a definitive 100% cast iron answer to. BTW the MCUI divides the country into two regions (the ACU divides GB into 20+) which are conveniently the "Southern Centre" and the "Ulster Centre". In answer to your question it would probably depend (if between just the Tricolour and the Union Jack) on the rider's beliefs - however if another can be used in a non controversial manner (I don't want to get into the politicised flags issue in Northern Ireland!) then that's great. Pickle 17:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Pickle, We are rather getting off the topic here for this page but I agree with the issue being a controversy but I should advise you to (try to) refrain from using the term Southern Ireland because that place no longer exists and even in reality only existed for a very short period of time and can be considered a somewhat offensive term to Irish people. It is better to use another term like, Republic of Ireland or if you must try to give some geographical dimension then the 's' of southern should certainly be lowercase. However, many people still make the mistake without knowing anything about it especially Americans.

My concern with Artie Bell is the inconsistency issue, but being Irish I might prefer to use the Irish flag. It is true, as you say, that anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to claim Irish citizenship but in this case I suppose he had British citizenship by birthright so that may be the easiest one to use without too much issue. This whole issue can be a quagmire as illustrated by the current discussions at Talk:British_Isles_(terminology) which is related to this whole problem of terminology. Need I say more!!

It is curious though that the MCUI divides Ireland into the "Southern Centre" and the "Ulster Centre" as I would not see that as convenient at all because Ulster include 3 counties that are in to the Republic, and the Southern Centre surely includes all 26 counties of the Republic. Northern Ireland is only 6 counties Ulster and again people make a mistake on that one too assuming they are synonymous. Anyway, that is all another issue rather off topic. ww2censor 20:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

My mistake I should know better and have used ROI ;)

I'm not sure what the "Ulster Centre" include (the 6 or 9 counties) - its somewhat removed from my end of the motorcycling world (ie GB)

Off topic - ohh well Pickle 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For your information, the MCUI (Motor Cycle Union Ireland) is responsible for motorcycling in both Republic of Ireland AND Northern Ireland. This is due to the political landscape at the time. MRA Ireland is an associate member of the MCUI, and manages and sanctions the events in Northern Ireland on behalf of MCUI. The British ACU (Auto Cycle Union) is only responsible for events in England and Wales. Scotland has the Scottish Auto Cycle Union, which aligns itself with the ACU (so that the ACU is responsible for events within the three countries that make up Mainland Britain). {SP} 82.152.251.134 01:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)