Wikipedia talk:Expert editors

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[edit] Purpose

This is the talk page for Wikipedia:expert editors, a proposed guideline/essay (not sure which is appropriate) which is designed to:

  1. offer specific guidelines for expert editors
  2. address criticism of the project concerning treatment of expert editors.

This isn't intended to be policy--it doesn't really create any new rules. Instead, it simply reiterates and collects various rules with regard to experts, in a single place. --EngineerScotty 03:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

We already have more guidlines than any one person knows about. If this is already covered the last thing we need is more.Geni 03:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An expert impression

As an expert editor in biological subjects, I do not like this guideline. It says in the first place what expert editors can not do, before it says something about that they should be appreciated. The basic message is, all animals are equal. Ok, what is new about that? Furthermore, there is a large grey area between appeals to authority and completely equal. I am frustrated at times with non-expert editors as they push there pet aspects on topics especially in popular/media/social hot topics without knowing where they talk about. I think there needs to be more discussion on whether expert editors should be assigned some more (bit bot to much) weight in discussions. KimvdLinde 04:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

  • What should they be able to do differently? (Assuming one could unambiguously and uncontroversially identify "experts")? One issue--since you bring up some of the controversial topics, such as politics--of course is that experts seldom agree on these things. For every expert that takes the Israeli side in the Israel/Palestine dispute, there's another who takes the Palestinian side, for instance. In my mind, WP:V should trump all--if the reliable sources support one position over another, that's what Wikipedia should say. If sources are reasonably split, then both sides of the dispute should be presented. That's really what this proposal is about; reaffirming the core editorial policies of Wikipedia. --EngineerScotty 04:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am primarily talking about (hard core) science subjects that have some visibility in the population of the world, not political opinion stuff which is much more difficult to deal with. It is mentioned in the guideline that wikipedia is percieved as anti-elitist, with which I can agree to a degree. I am not suggesting that policies such as WP:V and WP:NOR do not apply to expert editors, they do. However, my personal experience is that some non-expert editors treat expert editors as if they know equally much, and I get sometime quite frustrated from that especially if they are clearly wrong. It becomes especially frustrating if they keep repeating the same arguments using some outdated valid references. Or when the non-expert editors keep focussing on stuff published in the 1800's while the field has progressed far beyond what was known at that time. KimvdLinde 04:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Every regular editor has frustrations with Wikipedia, as it is inevitable that there will be friction from time to time. An expression of some of these frustrations that doesn't include any specific suggestions doesn't get us anywhere. I'm afraid I don't see any glimmers of any practicable innovations in your comments. Bhoeble 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
In general, in these sorts of disputes between experts and well-meaning laypersons (by well-meaning, I mean those who truly think their contributions are an improvement, as opposed to trolls/vandals), WP:V is usually your friend. If someone inserts nonsense, rebut with a reference that debunks it on the talk page. If someone disagrees with an established fact, again, cite the literature. If someone responds with an obsolete, deprecated, or non-scholarly reference (quoting an article in People magazine or some other dubious source), then WP:RS rides to the rescue. Explain why their source is wrong--it's been obsoleted by more recent research, or is merely conjecture, or was written by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. If someone still is obstinate, then and only then should stronger measures be taken. (And--don't always assume you are right, especially if the topic is controversial). You do point out one "hole" in WP:V--many references are deprecated by later developments, and one unfamiliar with the literature in a topic may not know this. But a little education goes a long way. --EngineerScotty 03:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not talking about the regular frustrations. I am talking about encountering an editor who has clearly no clue were s/he talks about, but has read a single article on the subject and acts as if they are all knowing about it, while you know from your 20+ years of experience in the field, inclusing teaching students etc., that that specific article is not really up-to-date anymore. To give you an example, Natural selection (the article is a mess at the moment, there is an ArbCom case ongoing against one of the editors who monopolizes the article), but in the discussion with other editors, various editors insist on using quotes from Darwins Origin of Species to explain the topic. However, the field has advanced to Neodarwinism, to the modern synthesis, and we are in the neo-neo-neo-neo-(...)-darwinism phase.
Natural selection is, of course, a controversial topic. Who is using Darwin's writings as evidence of current scientific thinking--well meaning editors trying to improve the article, or creationists and the like trying to sabotage it? Many people, for reasons of religious faith, consider the scientific experts on this topic to be fools, frauds. or worse (disclaimer: I support evolution and am not a creationist), and consider scriptural works to be the only authorities worth citing. Concern about "respecting experts" simply doesn't apply to contentious topics like that. WP:NPOV is the best hope there; present the major sides of the dispute and let the reader decide who is right and who is nuts. --EngineerScotty 03:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I think experts need to be recognized, otherwise, why would we even care about the nature reviews? The big difference is that outside experts are taken very serious and recognized as such, while fellow expert editors are not. I think it is very well possible to judge whether someone is an expert. I think the main hurdle is that Wikipedia in the first place is process oriented, mediation, arbitration etc is focussed on process principles. Content is only partially included, for example third opinion, but there is no way to resolve a content conflict that is unresolvable with the few methods that are available. This because of the same issue, how do you recognize an expert? Well, how do all those scientists it in the world of peer-review etc? Maybe it is time to add some of thoe components to wikipedia. KimvdLinde 01:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, journals perform a filtering function--in many cases, submissions by persons without at least some postgraduate work or recognized industry experience are deposited in the bin, unread. At any rate, experts on many topics are respected, when they choose to post (and don't make asses of themselves, like one noted computer scientist recently did). Many fields of study have Wikipedia:WikiProjects, which provide a framework for expertese to be recognized and honored--participants in such projects will have sufficient knowledge to know who is knowledgable and who is bullshitting, and if worse comes to worse, may be useful in defending an expert in a content dispute. --EngineerScotty 03:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I more or less agree with KimvdLinde. As currently written the guideline comes across as a bit hostile to expert editors, implying that they tend to assume an arrogant attitude, engage in kooky speculation and expect everyone else to yield because they have letters behind their name. That has not been my experience at all. I'd prefer not to see the proposal marked as a guideline unless it is rewritten to be more friendly and flattering to the people we want to attract :) Geni also has a point that we may already have too many guidelines. Haukur 13:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I am adding some stuff to it (need to find Jimbo's quotes), along this line. I think it can be more consise, and that we might want to add two sections for non-expert and expert editors on how to approach each other. KimvdLinde 13:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me; the intent is not to be hostile to experts (or to anyway). The reason it is written as it is, is that many of the complaints that I've read about Wikipedia concerning this matter, are of the form "I'm an expert on X and those nasty Wikipedians didn't (to quote Eric Cartman) respect my authoritay." Many scientists and the like who could make wonderful contributions here come from environments (academia in particular) and cultures (much of Eastern Europe for example) where experts are regarded more or less like royalty--even outside academic contexts--and thus, they expect to be treated with deference. When they are not--and when well-meaning teenagers who posses a copy of X for Dummies proceed to "correct" an expert on X (and leave an abrupt note in the edit summary, as is common Wikipedia style), many get offended. Wikipedia can be a rude culture shock for many people. The intent of the article is to lessen the culture shock, to lay bare what the community expects of editors and what editors can expect from the community. Any further wordsmithing that aids this intent is, of course, welcome. --EngineerScotty 14:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I hope you still recongnize the article, feel free to revert if this goes to far. KimvdLinde 15:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Nice changes. Thincat 15:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Excellent work. --EngineerScotty 23:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
One addition which I propose, now that I think of it is:
  1. Expert editors are highly encouraged to locate and join the appropriate Wikipedia:WikiProjects concerning their area of expertise. WikiProjects are a manner by which articles on related subjects may be coordinated and edited by a group of identified interested parties. All editors are free to join any WikiProject which they are interested in.
WikiProjects are an excellent framework for editors (especially experts) to collaborate--and (though I won't say it in the article) for experts to build a community of supporters to help deal with the occasuasional unruly editor who thinks that the rumors he's read on the 'net correspond to established fact. --EngineerScotty 23:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the copy editing (my weakest point as a dislectic non-native speaker). I have added your suggestion. KimvdLinde 01:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comment

I don't think that expert editors should be set apart from other editors...this guideline/policy does that. --Osbus 21:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
:I don't agree that it does. It is simply a moderate summary of how various policies and practices impact on a particular (vaguely defined) class of users. I think it is a good idea to have a realistic summary of the actual position, because some of Wikipedia's critics (e.g. Larry Sanger) are eager to maliciously misrepresent it. I just don't buy the idea that there is systematic hostility towards experts. A few editors may see Wikipedia as some sort of radical experiment, but I think they are a small and shrinking minority. Most of us just want to share what we know or to help out a project which is proving to be of great practical use to ourselves and people like ourselves. When expert users fo have problems, most likely it's usually just part of the rough and tumble nature of Wikipedia and not the result of any specific antagonism towards experts. Bhoeble 22:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

As I don't have any experience with handling these kinds of matters, I don't know the degree of hostility that is directed to these expert editors. Can you give me an example? --Osbus 00:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
My previous comments were based on the policy at it existed at that time, not on the current divisive version, which I oppose. Bhoeble 22:16, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] One additional change

It's a small one so I've gone ahead and made it. I've changed "any subject" to "any encyclopedic subject"; mainly so this guideline isn't interpreted to mean that experts somehow have a green light to unilaterally resurrect deleted articles, or create articles on subjects (like [[Why George Bush is an idiot]]) which are not encyclopedic. --EngineerScotty 03:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

It is a notable change. --Siva1979Talk to me 15:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

"Original research" to a seasoned Wikipedian means something very different from what it means to an academic researcher. To other types of expert (and people generally) it may not mean too much at all.

In Wikipedia, because of the policy Wikipedia:No original research, OR can mistakenly become "what you should not do" or "what you should not include in articles". The policy would more precisely (and less memorably) be called "No ideas may be added unless previously published in reliable, third-party sources" (it is the publisher, not the author, who must be third-party). The policy summarises itself well as "Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position".

Hence, provided an article remains encyclopedic and neutral, use may indeed be made of original research material. On the other hand, really quite minor matters can be regarded as OR and hence unsuitable. Sorting a list of roads into order of length and ranking them [1] and making a telephone call [2] are examples.

Now, experts must learn the ropes by wading through the policies and guidelines (and by receiving flak!) just like anyone else. However, is the somewhat unexpected nature of the NOR policy a matter sufficiently specific to experts that it should be elaborated on in this guideline? Thincat 10:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I personally think the guidleline is nice and clear, and for me (as a researcher) it never cause any issue. KimvdLinde 14:21, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How far are we?

How far are we. I feel good about this guideline, what will be the next step? KimvdLinde 04:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

  • We could put it up for a vote. Or, we could issue a second reqest for comments on village pump, and perhaps a few other places as well. --EngineerScotty 04:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Lets take the repeat request. KimvdLinde 04:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional suggestions for the non-expert editors section

I suggest the following additions:

  1. Non-expert editors should also be aware that in many subjects, the popular press is often years behind the technical or academic literature; and that the latter are far more highly preferred as a reliable source. If an academic paper in some subject X contradicts a claim made in a book such as X for Dummies, it is highly likely that the more scholarly source is the more correct one. Non-experts are discouraged from correcting claims made by experts based on information found in the popular literature--if you think an expert claim is in error, based on this reason, please discuss it on the talk page first. Likewise, editors should remember to consider the date of their sources and/or knowledge in a subject; many (though definitely not all) older sources on a wide range of topics have been superceded by more recent discoveries or findings. A source which was reliable twenty years ago may not be reliable today.
  2. Non-expert editors are also cautioned that many scholarly subjects which are notable within academia, are not well-known generally and may fail tests for notability such as the Google test. Non-experts should exercise caution in objecting to, or proposing deletion of, articles on subjects which they are unfamiliar with.

--EngineerScotty 21:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

2 is redundant as such nominations are very rare (and on a wider point, anything that discourages deletion nominations is unwelcome as there is an awful lot of material that deserves nomination). It is also patronising; there are enough rules and cautions about nominations as it is. It would makes this proposal seem even more hostile to "non-experts". 1 is also somewhat overstated and should be made less hostile; don't mention dummies and don't divide users into two groups "experts" (esteemed) and non-experts (despised - you may not have intended it to seem that strong, but it does to me, and it will to others) .Bhoeble 03:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
  • #2 was partially intended to address a recent incident, where an expert on an obscure but notable topic created several new articles on it; which were promptly hit with an AfD by an apparent reductionist who, knowing little on the topic, proclaimed it not-notable. I prefer to err on the side of keeping material (especially if notability is the only objection), we may have to agree to disagree on this point. Regarding #1, I'd be happy to tone it down; in particular, the backhanded remark on the For Dummies series is inappropriate on a guideline page. Proposal #1 is also intended to address specific incidents which have been reported. --EngineerScotty 04:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How do we verify expertise?

Anyone can claim anything they like. I may assert that I have say a degree in history. I may be telling the truth, but even then I may be an expert only in modern European history yet claim expertise in mediaeval China. Or I may say that although I have no degree, I have acquired expertise. This may be valid; indeed, I may know more about some aspects of birds through my hobby of bird-watching than does someone with a degree in zoology. And to an expert, something may be blindingly obvious, whereas to laymen it is not obvious and seems to be original research. Runcorn 22:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is one of the reasons that I would suggest to experts to disclose their real name (As I have done, you can link from my user page directly to my homepage. If you have the real name, you can that name to find the universuity they work at, check the scientific publications they have etc. I think in general, when an expert comes to the article, you notice very quickley. If you know a little about the subject, you know immediatly when someone knows a lot about it. If you already know a lot about it, well, even without a degree, you might indeed be an expert. If that is true, you will notice very quickly when newby with hardly any knowledge shows up, you notice it. And in he end, it is a judgement and it can be wrong. I think in the end, it has to be a case by case jusgement based on the experience that the residenet editors have with that person. But I can tell you, I generally need only a few talk page posts to figure out whether someone is an expert or not. A first clue is the amount of detail they insert in a single sentence. It is very quickly obvious that they know their facts. KimvdLinde 01:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
We shouldn't be in the business of assessing expertise because it is not proof of good editing. Only content should be assessed. If any users are deemed to have special status they may use it to pull rank and that is not acceptable. Bhoeble 03:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
  • An excellent question, and one of the reasons which Wikipedia does not officially recognize experts. (And a reason it is suggested that the {{ExpertContribution}} tag not be self-applied). A few suggestions:
  1. First, assume good faith. If someone claims to be an expert, assume (s)he is absent a good reason to suspect otherwise.
  2. Experts, as indicated by the article, are likely to be more knowledgeable about the literature than are non-experts; as a result, expert contributions are likely to be better-sourced than the contributions of laypersons.
  3. Be suspicious if:
    • Extravagant or detailed claims are made without sources (especially if sources are requested and not provided). Claims in article should not be backed up by "because I say so". ("Because I say so" is a bit more acceptable for the removal of claims which cannot be independently sourced, as the literature often fails to demonstrate negatives).
    • The individual makes grandiose claims concerning his position within the field (and cannot support them with evidence), and/or suggests that the vast majority of recognized authorities in the fields are frauds, engaged in a conspiracy, or are otherwise incompetent or corrupt. (Many practitioners of pseudoscience engage in this sort of diatribe concerning mainstream science).
  4. And remember--WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V all apply to experts just as much as laypersons. The purpose for identifying experts is to allow bona-fide experts to improve articles more rapidly than laypersons could; not to allow them to "own" articles. All Wikipedia editorial standards apply to all editors.

--EngineerScotty 04:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

To get back to the title of this section: That's a very good question, and it has a simple answer.

Experts (or people regarding themselves as experts) are encouraged to announce that they are experts. Further, they're encouraged to give their real names, etc.

I haven't yet announced my real name (as far as I remember). But if I suddenly rewrite my user page to announce that I am [insert name of eminent expert here], there's no reason why you should believe this claim. So I recommend the following addition:

If you regard yourself as an expert in one or more fields, please give your name on your userpage and also link to your own web page (or your page within your institution's site). Have that web page announce that on en-WP you edit as username such-and-such.

-- Hoary 06:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

On you proposal (the rest is self-evident): On one hand, I would be in favour of stronger wording, arguments as clarity and such. On the other hand, I am not, as I think that rules should be equal for all editors. I think that by indicating it, it can be helpfull to avoid conflict between experts and non-experts. Furthermore, I think this flies in the face of certain wikipedia policies (have to find them, not one I frequently use). I think finding a good clear wording between encouraging something and being experienced as 'instruction crap' is the way to go. KimvdLinde 16:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This has been changed far too much

The early version was a fair summary of the current situation, but as it is now, it carries a strong assumption that edits by people with demonstrable qualifications are better, and does not place proper emphasis on assessing edits on their own merits.

  • While it would be foolish to proclaim that all "expert edits" are better than the other kind, assuming we could easily divine which was which, I think that on many topics--especially the non-controversial ones--there is a positive correlation between edit quality and subject matter knowledge. On controversial topics, WP:NPOV tends to make expertise less of an issue. --EngineerScotty 04:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not acceptable. Academics often publish material that is biased towards pet theories, and are skilled at propaganda. They are often the last people able and willing to assess what is a neutral point of view on a topic as their careers can depend on complying with the orthodoxy imposed by senior academics.

  • Which is one reason why, contrary to your suggestion below, nobody is proposing recreating Nupedia or anything like it. I'm well aware of the potential for academic orthodoxies to arise. That said, this is an encyclopedia and not a research publication; a fact which ought to make us gravitate somewhat towards orthodoxy. It's not the place of Wikipedia to challenge ossification in the ivory tower, though if it is documented or challenged elsewhere we can certainly comment on it. --EngineerScotty 04:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

A good illustration of how the dead hand of academic orthodoxy can damage an encyclopedia is that race and intelligence is mentioned in Britannica only to say that it musn't be discussed, because that is the agreed position senior liberal academics, whereas it is covered properly by Wikipedia. Recognition of academic expertise would hand control to the liberal establishment, which would put an end to any effective effort to produce a neutral encyclopedia. Britannica and Encarta are academic-controlled and so of course they are (socially) liberal, not neutral.

  • Race and intelligence is a controversial topic; WP:NPOV applies there. It ain't a matter of "experts" advancing a consensus opinion that a howling mob is objecting to. I will have to disagree with you on the notion that either of the print encyclopedias you mention advances a "liberal" (whatever that means--the L-word is fast becoming useless in serious political discourse) agenda, at any rate that accusation has been bandied at Wikipedia as well. --EngineerScotty 04:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The current version of this proposal gives far too much weight to personal status over edit quality and could almost have been written by Larry Sanger. If it is not returned more or less to where it started it should be scrapped. Bhoeble 03:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for convincing me that this page is very needed. KimvdLinde 04:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
If you are a Sanger fan, you can leave Wikipedia and join Digital Universe. Trying to stage a coup to turn the former into the latter is not on. Athenaeum 04:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Relax. Nobody wants to turn Wikipedia into DU; for one thing--I probably wouldn't be qualified to touch many of the articles over there. --EngineerScotty 05:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
It should be scraped whatever. see Instruction creep.Geni 03:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
See comment above. --EngineerScotty 04:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

This can go round in circles. I detest ad hominem arguments that an edit from one person is somehow better than the same edit from another person. However, equally, presumably an expert can assess the value of an edit better than another editor. Runcorn 09:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scrap it

As Geni says this is instruction creep. Wikipedia already has more policies and guidelines than most people will ever want to see. However this one is phrased, it will upset some people, and I can't see any practical use for it: a reference to it will just open up the same old arguments. Recommendation: archive as rejected. Sumahoy 04:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Sumahoy. This is well-intentioned instruction creep. If someone wants to write an essay on how best experts and non-experts should work together that's one thing, but this is both unecessary and unproductive. The section on how to recognize/have experts identify themselves is also bad. The best way to demonstrates one's expertise in an area is to make good edits and back them up with reliable sources. JoshuaZ 06:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with JoshuaZ. What he recommends is indeed a good way to demonstrate that you're a cut above the stereotypically slipshod editor of WP. It does not show that you have the bullshit-detection abilities, perspective, etc. of an expert. Yes, Wikipedia indeed already has more policies and guidelines than most people will ever want to see; but it also has more crap, pseudoscience, recycled tabloid gossip, commercial puffery, etc., than I for one want to see. Yes, a great number of non-experts are capable of editing without screwing up. (Perhaps I'm among them.) But a great number are not, and I'd love to see their "contributions" separated from those by people who are qualified. -- Hoary 06:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Digital universe is over there.Geni 17:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand. Hoary 02:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
You just described how digital universe is meant to work in future.Geni 05:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
"Digital universe"? -- Hoary 07:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Digital Universe. Athenaeum 18:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia has worked because it welcomes everyone. If you don't like that, the solution is to leave. Your contempt for other editors will not be missed. Athenaeum 20:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I phrased that badly. Rather than their "contributions", read our contributions. Wikipedia has worked better than I expected. It already doesn't welcome everyone: it makes exceptions for unambiguous trolls and the like. I think that some users do much better work than others. For some subjects, notably medical subjects for which nostrums are widely spammed, I'd be much happier if only experts were able to make substantive edits. I'm not an expert in such subjects and any "contempt" (?) for the non-expert would most certainly apply to myself. Hoary 02:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep it!

Hi ---

I think it's excellent to formalize the relationship between expert & non-expert editors, and that you are making a good start on this.

I've basically preferred to edit wikipedia anonymously, and I doubt that my edits in my own area of expertise are really that much more or less valuable than my edits on other pages. I only once got angry when something I spent some time on got totally wiped & did a slightly snippy move of saying "well, I learned that at MIT" in the discussion page & then abandoned wikipedia for about a month. When I checked back though it turned out that the system had "worked" and someone had reverted my contributions back in.

I actually think putting a tag on an article or edit saying "I'm an expert so there" is a bad idea on many levels. Expertise is fluid --- amatures can be experts if they spend enough time (look at tennis.) Students should be encouraged to think critically, and even highschool students sometimes see connections that experts may have missed, because of their intelligence and what they have happened to read recently. I think the watch, history and other mechanisms are more than adequate to protect good writing.

The only reason I now have an "expert" login identity is because I'm currently exploring incorporating wikipedia into funded research, such as as a communication and organization method for networks of excellence. We had a protracted discussion about this on the village pump on policy (which has got deleted!! I'm still being surprised by some things in Wikipedia...) but the upshot of the brief discussion was that any funding acknowledgement should probably be on the user's home page, which is of course referenced through the history so therefore permanent even if the article changes. You may want to think about this policy matter as part of the one you are working on, because if we can get this right then it will enable experts to spend more time actually contributing to wikipedia (or hiring people to!) Charities and national and international science organizations are often happy to fund science outreach and networking, but they tend to require that their contribution is publicly acknowledged, if only in a footnote. --Joanna Bryson 12:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Ms Bryson's example proves the opposite of what she thinks. Maybe someone reverted, not because she said she'd learnt it at MIT but because in their (non-expert?) opinion it seemed better than the amended version. Runcorn 15:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't look to me like she was trying to prove anything or that she was making assumptions about why her contribution was reverted back in :)
Her more important point is how we can make Wikipedia better able to receive funded expert contributions. Haukur 15:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It would be good to get more funded expert contributions but a policy to encourage that should be done on its own, not with all the additional stuff that is on this one. I would support the drafting a policy to encourage such participation, but this one is hopelessly flawed. JoshuaZ 17:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
How would you draft it then? KimvdLinde 17:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wishful thinking

quoted from the article: "Likewise, expert contributions are not protected from subsequent revisions from non-experts, nor is there any mechanism to do so. In the end, it is the quality of the edits that counts."

The last sentence is certainly the basis on which Wiki is built, but, as best, this is wishful thinking, nowhere proven and perhaps unprovable. 'In the end', in this Wiki anarchy, is too often the result of the most forceful and tenacious editor who sticks to something until all others have given up trying to write something else and being reverted or tire of being insulted. I don't think anything in this 'Expert editors' article will change this situation. Thanks Hmains 17:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

If it does a little to change your observations, it swould have achieved something. If it does not help at all, nothing is lost. KimvdLinde 17:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
What about all the good editors who will leave if Wikipedia changes to a culture where they are treated as peasants by people who have a PhD to wave about? They will be lost. Academic snobs should sign up to Digital Universe and see if that model will work. Wikipedia has its own model, and I do not want to see a coup by academia. Athenaeum 21:01, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Coup by academia? I think the proposal is pretty clear about the fact that everybody can edit everything, and that experts do not have special rights they can use. So, I fail to see this conclusion. KimvdLinde 21:08, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a PhD. I think that KimvdLinde does. I don't think that he's treating me like a peasant. I'd be delighted to know that articles about knottier subjects were written by experts and thus were more likely to be trustworthy. -- Hoary 02:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quick straw poll

A quick "straw poll", for those commenting and/or observing. I've put my thoughts under each question, other editors are encouraged to do so as well. This is non-binding, so answer how you like.

  • Is the term "non-expert" offensive:
  • What approach do you think Wikipedia should take regarding expertise
  1. Refuse to recognize it at all; all editors should be exactly equal, and credentials/experience should be completely irrelevant to Wikipedia, especially in content disputes
  2. Recognize and encourage expertise, but unofficially.
  3. Some official recognition, in particular WRT content disputes.
  4. Official hierarchy of users, formal recognition of expertise
  5. Nupedia model; all articles/changes vetted by experts.
    • 2. Knowledgeable editors can tremendously improve Wikipedia, they should be encouragedconcerned. 3-4 involve bureaucracy that I'd rather not deal with (and would likely require official support from Jimbo and/or the directors, as well as technical help from the developers). 5 makes us no longer a wiki. --EngineerScotty 20:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
    • 2. Obvious Kim van der Linde at venus 21:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
  • What do you think of this proposal, so far?
  1. Acceptable as is; ready to submit to vote
  2. Needs some work, but holds promise
  3. Needs signficant work
  4. Needs to be scapped altogether or a completely different direction undertaken.
    • 2. More discussion is needed; primarily around wording. But I think overall this is a step in the right direction. --EngineerScotty 20:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
    • 2. Coments later. Kim van der Linde at venus 21:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A quick reminder....

...we're not voting yet. I say this because some of the above comments are phrased like votes. If you think this proposal is fundamentally and irredeemably flawed, go ahead and say so... but voting probably won't start for another week or so. (And there does appear to be some support for this page, so withdrawing the proposal prior to a vote isn't likely to happen.  :) --EngineerScotty 18:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don't call people "non-experts"

Is it intended to be an insult, or is it an accident that it comes across as one? Either way, this policy belongs in the reject tray. Athenaeum 20:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Non-expert is simply the opposite of expert; it shouldn't be an insult. There are few subjects on which I can claim any expertise, and on virtually all that I can there are many far more knowlegdeable than me. As nobody is an expert on all things; all of us are non-experts; any claims of expertise should be qualified by a subject. If you prefer, we could use the word "layperson" instead. The term non-expert is not intended to be synonymous with dummy, idiot, or any other term of abuse. --EngineerScotty 22:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
It may not be not intended to be so, but it reads that way to me and I am sure it will to many others. As you continue to defend it I can only assume you don't care about offending people you consider to be your inferiors. Athenaeum 04:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strongly disagree with a lot here

The very idea that someone self-identifies as an "expert" and then blatantly wants to put a tag on the article or its Talk page as if they are somehow a "better" editor than others is offensive personally, and is contradictory to the Wikipedia ideal. Please remember that User:Snowspinner claims to be an expert on webcomics, and has repeatedly tried to use this self-identified expertise in order to try to derail AfDs on non-notable webcomics. Are we supposed to kowtow to these supposed experts? If your expertise requires you to indentify yourself as such, then it's basically worthless. Show it in your edits, not by trying to railroad other people into stepping aside so you can own an article. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I wonder, what was not clear on the: "To recognize the contribution of subject matter experts, other editors (and not the subject matter expert him- or herself) can add the ExpertContribution template (general) or ExpertContributionSection template (specified sections) to the talk page of the article." KimvdLinde 22:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
So you get your editing buddy to make the page ownership for you? User:Zoe|(talk) 22:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
If you assume bad faith, anything can be manipulated to fit an end (which is what a lot of people try to do anyway.) In such a case, a bnch of editors can also coordinate to put completly bogus information or strong POV in an article. KimvdLinde 22:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to create new opportunities for manipulations when there are too many already. Athenaeum 22:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Knowing little about SnowSpinner (other than the fact the tends to annoy the folks at Wikipedia Review, which is to me a feather in his cap), does he back up any claims of expertise with demonstrated knowledge on the subject? Webcomics, and the study thereof, aren't a well-founded academic discipline, so it's hard to judge claims of expertise. At any rate, I refer you to the above section; if SnowSpinner is an expert, he ought to be contributing numerous well-sourced edits to the encyclopedia. --EngineerScotty 22:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Zoe has a pleasant idea, but my knowledge of medicine (for example) is minimal. I'm therefore often unable to determine whether edits about medicine are for better or worse. I can imagine a competition between a disinterested expert and [danger, possible straw man approaching] a slick soft-seller of some snake-oily remedy. When we got to the stage of adding external links, I'd have a strong hunch of which writer was more credible, but the latter [straw man?] editor might have distorted the article before it reached that stage. Moreover, as a user of WP, I want to be able to use articles without feeling a need for a time-consuming examination of their edit histories and discussion pages. There's something I agree with, though: the distinction between expertise in well-established academic fields and that elsewhere. I don't want to belittle the latter. Sometimes, however, a certain kind of (reasonably claimed) expertise might not be desirable. Surely a "creation scientist" can claim to be an expert in "creation science" -- but I for one would prefer an article on "creation science" to be primarily shaped by people other than such "experts". -- Hoary 03:00, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Experts and Academia

Lots of people are making the connection between expertise and academia--and implying that the proposal will give greater rights to PhDs. You may notice that the proposal avoids defining "expert"; that is intentional. While an advanced degree is a strong indicator of expertise (especially in subjects which are well-established disciplines); in my mind it is neither necessary nor sufficient. Someone who earned an PhD in microbiology thirty years ago, and then embarked upon a career in computer programming (no longer paying attention to the biology literature), probably will have a difficult time claiming expertise in microbiology today--the field has advanced significantly since 1976. However, that person, due to past experience, would have an easier time reacquiring expertise should they choose, simply because they wouldn't be starting from zero. Likewise, someone who learned to program computers in the Air Force directly out of high school, got a programming job upon leaving the service, and who is now a published author and in-demand consultant on some programming topic, certainly qualifies as an expert.

True expertise is demonstrable, and can be acquired, lost, and re-acquired by continued learning (or failure to do so). It isn't a piece of paper that you hang on the wall. However, the learning, study, and research that one must do to get that piece of paper certainly goes along way towards claiming expert status.

And again, I must reiterate: This proposal does not give experts, real or otherwise, a blank check. WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:RS, and WP:NPOV apply to everybody, including experts. --EngineerScotty 23:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

But slapping your proposed tag on an article implies ownership, which is also not allowed under Wikipedia rules. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag is currently not in the proposed version, it has been removed, and I will remove it all together from this page as that seems to be a major red flag for people, despite that is explicitly not for owner ship etc KimvdLinde 23:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I'm glad that the template is removed; I wouldn't like it if somebody would place a notice saying that I as an expert edited the article, as it implies that I have reviewed the article. Now, I see little that I disagree with, except that I think that

"attempts to insert misinformation … are treated as vandalism" (at the end)

is too strong. If somebody accidentally inserts a wrong fact; that's a mistake and it should not be labelled vandalism. Perhaps insert deliberate before attempts?

Regarding instruction creep: it is just a rehashing of policies. It could be useful to point experts to, to help them understand their position within Wikipedia quickly. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 09:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The first version was just a rehash of policies, but this proposal is one of the most fundamental changes to Wikipedia ever proposed. It creates a class system and blows to pieces the idea that an edit should be assessed on its own merits. Athenaeum 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, where does that happen in the proposal? Kim van der Linde it's a girl 22:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I have cut back the patronising hostility, but it should still be rejected

I have have combined the lay editor (formerly "non-expert") section into the general section. Such a section necessarily implies that there are two fundamentally different classes and experts are more valuable, which is not acceptable. I have also removed some hostile phrases that were directed towards lay editors. Even with these improvements, I think this should be scrapped as it offers nothing new and will just be a source of future antagonism. Athenaeum 18:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, you have cut back what you regard as patronizing hostility; and the idea that experts are more valuable than non-experts (or, if we're mealy-mouthed, "lay editors") is not acceptable to you. To me, it's acceptable. Clearly there is no simple division whereby one part of the editing population are experts and the other part are non-experts (or lay); that there is no such simple division does not imply that experts can't be distinguished from non-experts (a group in which I almost always class myself). I hope that substantive disputes over medical articles, say, are resolved in favor of expert opinion.
As a whole, the recent changes don't strike me as "improvements". Good bits here and there, no doubt, but on balance I'd call the changes "enfeeblements" -- so yes of course it now offers nothing new. How about going back to this version and improving it rather than watering it down? If somebody doesn't like the very nature of the thing, he can let it develop and stabilize, and then vote it down. -- Hoary 08:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Athenaeum, a question for you: Are you editing the policy in order to produce a version which you would accept? Or do you think the whole thing is flawed, and are merely attempting what you think is damage control? While all contributions and suggestions are welcome, it's a bit unusual to be making wholesale changes to something if you're just going to vote no anyway. I've no issue with replacing "non-expert" with layperson (even though I disagree with you that the former term is somehow offensive); and I disagree that two classes of editors are produced--all editors will have the same rights and be bound to the same restrictions. OTOH, Jimmy Wales' words provide appropriate context and guidance. Rest assured that the reason that Wikipedia isn't Nupedia is due to Wales; including his full quote is certainly not out of place. --EngineerScotty 20:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Both. Clearly not having this policy will be best, but if by some misfortune it is adopted, its capacity to generate alienation and division will need to be minimised. Athenaeum 04:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote reduction

Could you please indicate why the quote needs to be reduced? Kim van der Linde at venus 04:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Because it gives primacy to "scientist" over expert, implying that the policy is focused mainly on scientific experts rather than other experts. Athenaeum 04:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Jimbo's quote is only here to provide context. The guideline as proposed, states that "experts, on any encyclopedic subject whatever, are encouraged to edit Wikipedia, and to contribute material on their area(s) of expertise." (emphasis added). Nothing should be construed to limit expertise to scientific disciplines. Experts on art, literature, history, religion, theology, politics, business, music, etc... are all welcome. Perhaps this should be further clarified with explicit language.
One further clarification I should make, even though I've sorta addressed it before. WP:EXPERT would not entitle the scientific side in the evolution debate (for example) to proclaim: "we scientists are the experts in this matter; as such, we declare that creationism is bunk, and this shall henceforth be the position of Wikipedia". WP:NPOV still applies to controversial topics, even when the "scientific experts" are generally on one side of the debate. As it is a controversial topic, and creationism (whatever you otherwise think of it) a notable collection of beliefs, both sides of the debate would be presented on Wikipedia, as before. --EngineerScotty 05:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stale proposal

This page hasn't been edited for over a fortnight and there is a lot of opposition to the proposal, to which I add mine as I consider it to be divisive instruction creep. I am going to mark it rejected. Osomec 14:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


Someone wrote "In the end, it is the quality of the edits that counts." This is the bone of contention, and a hopelessly flawed, subjective, empty standard in the context of a work which relies on the idea that individual differences should be ironed out by discussions between individuals.
As I read Pirsig, who has much to say about quality: In the moment, in-depth current knowledge ... and awareness of and humility about the unknown ... the tentativeness of knowledge ... decides quality; in the long term, history decides quality. Today, in a snit, I might fail to see wisdom; recollected in tranquility, one day I might see it. Or I might never see it because I haven't the capacity.
Quality is accumulated, not produced; generally it can only accumulate during tranquil eras; in other times it is tested. I've lived long enough to have been an "expert" in subject niches which are now quaint and forgotten. Quality today, gone tomorrow. Accuracy is one thing, precision is quite another. Agreement requires a maturity which recognizes the utter futility of skirmish and jockeying. The only durable agreements are grounded in mutual caring. I'm thinking of Solomon and the baby.Twang 09:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why rejected?

What is the problem with experts editing, anyway? I think a big problem is that people may put experts on some sort of pedestal while at the same time denigrating those who aren't experts, even though we should not denigrate at all. Anti-elitism, where experts are denigrated, and pro-elitism, where non-experts are denigrated are both extreme position and both are wrong. 74.38.35.171 09:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Humor: Look in the previous section: Osomec, who writes mostly about golf, declared that, to him, it is rejected policy. Is that not good enough for you? Please, tell everyone with a PhD in science who still volunteers at Wikipeida that Osomec has addressed the matter in an assertvie fashion. Fore! --70.231.137.18 18:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, I do not think anyone ever wanted this as policy, but as guideline. I think that Osome over-reacted. If I am wrong, swat me down. --70.231.134.11 18:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
SWAT! The proposal was marked rejected because it did not have consensus support, either as a guideline or as a policy. Osomec did not mark it rejected on his/her own, but announced his/her intention and marked it rejected when nobody protested.
You cannot just decide, on your own, to make it a guideline. At the very least, you should get evidence that there is a consensus in favour of the proposal now. However, as Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines says: "Generally it is wiser to rewrite a rejected proposal from scratch and start in a different direction." -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 00:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that this attempted guideline can be watered down much more and provide any comfort to contributors with (or in the process of obtaining) an advanced degree in hard science. I defer to your post-doc in math, but I fear that the hard-science post-graduate people, who have to contend with unforgiving Nature, will find your gesture to block what amounts to little more than a kudo and a hint of deference to be, if I may, ungrateful. Turning to your specialty, I see by Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics#Featured and former featured articles that there are only 13 current "Math" FA's in the entire project, and none of them subjects clearly beyond the high-school level. These hard-science people are not looking for mathematial beauty in their work: they are looking for Truth in Nature and also are (or least, were) looking here for a manageable repository for the results their efforts to share their hard-won knowledge and if from nowhere else, mutual respect and support within their small group. The Nature study focused on hard science: Wikipedia:External peer review/Nature December 2005/Errors. To paraphrase Edward G. Robinson: Mother of Mercy! Is this the end of "Britannica or better"? --199.33.32.40 03:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Press releases/Nature compares Wikipedia and Britannica

"Our goal is Britannica-or-better quality, but we're not completely there yet," said Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales. "We've been working on Wikipedia for less than five years, and it's a testament to the strength of our community that we should come so close to them at this point. As we get more people to contribute their expertise, I know that the clarity, readability, and accuracy of Wikipedia content will continue to improve."

To quote Herb Morrison: Oh, the humanity! --71.141.242.194 18:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia - the place where persistent amateurs edit the experts

Is consensus editing the best way to achieve accurate, thorough articles, particularly on complex, technical subjects? Clearly it isn't. The consensus view is often incorrect. It's not worth the effort for real experts. This is a fatal flaw. Real experts don't want to waste time debating and re-debating points that are trivial to anyone with expertise in a subject, yet beyond the grasp of other editors who firmly believe they understand the subject. Wikipedia is a powerful thing... anyone can contribute from anywhere in the world. Yet for all this power, it is fatally flawed. Tvaughan1 02:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

This is quite true. It is often very easy to claim that a statement by an expert is "disproved" by links to incorrect popular discussions.--Runcorn 12:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why that would be a problem. A journal article will always trump a blog or forum. And to answer the first concern, we just need some persistent experts (and we have quite a few, I think). --Joelmills 16:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not worried about blogs or forums. The problem is that an article in a national newspaper, being verifiable, trumps an unpublished talk at a symposium of experts and, still more, an informal discussion among experts.--Runcorn 21:14, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
But if it's an unpublished talk or an informal discussion, then it's not verifiable. I would only worry if a newspaper article contradicted published material. The article would probably be quoting someone, in which case their qualifications could be taken into account. --Joelmills 22:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Therefore it is not a level playing field for experts.--Runcorn 10:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
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