Talk:Existence of God

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Contents

[edit] Archive

[edit] Agnosts

"Agnostics generally do not believe in God, but do not call themselves Atheists." That makes no sense and should be altered. If you do not believe in a God, you are classified as an Atheist according to the same article so it should be changed. Daimanta 15:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Agnosts are essentially unsure of the existence of God. This means they are unbelievers while at the same time not quite atheists.

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something. -Tim-THobern 02:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Think about a child being asked a complex mathematical equation. While it definitely does have an answer, the child doesn't know the answer and does not take any opinion on the answer. There can't really be any varying degrees of this. ~ UBeR 03:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't accept your analogy. While, granted, there is a hard and fast answer to the mathematical problem, the existence of god is, by definition, unprovable and therefor subject to discussion on many levels. -Tim-THobern 03:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

God is verifiable. Just thought I'd let that be known first. Second, it definitely is open for discussion, hence this article. That is not to say, however, agnosticism cannot exist, of course. ~ UBeR 04:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


"God is verifiable"? Well thank god for that. I'm glad you sorted that out for us. I'm guessing everyone who contributed to this article is going to feel really silly now that you've brought this startling revelation to light. How on earth didn't we realise that before? -Tim-THobern 05:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Er, well you making it seem as if God wasn't. ~ UBeR 05:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well you make it seem as if you have the correct answer to a simple yes or no question. Which, if true, would render the entire article pointless. Now would you care to share this verification with us? -Tim-THobern 15:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I just stating it is possible for God to be verified, not that God necessarily has been. If not, this article, too, would be moot. One common example of God being verified is the example "when you die, you'll find out." I don't necessarily like that example, because, of course, if there is no life after death, there simply would be no mind that exists to confirm it. If God, however, chose reveal Himself on Earth, do miracles (defy laws of physics, e.g.), etc., etc., and was witnessed by everyone, I very well would say God is verifiable. Falsification, however, is something I find a lot more difficult. ~ UBeR 23:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems, please fix

This is roughly half the problems I found with the articile, it desperately needs some warning signs and a peer review.

The first paragraph doesn’t make sense, to assess the “validity of any argument” for anything we need to assess it’s characteristics, this is not “one way” of assessing the validity of arguments for the existence of god, it is a necessary competent of any assessment.

The second paragraph is original research or needs a citation.

The whole first section is confusingly written. The discussion of the use theory of meaning is superfluous.

The discussion of falsifiability is just left dangling, the excessive equation of such arguments with the philosophy of Karl Popper are likely to give a slanted view.

The claim that fine tuning arguments are based on a shrinking pool is POV. The claim that ID arguments depend on fine tuning is factually incorrect, mostly they appeal to biology, not cosmology.

The epistemology section, It's POV. The author should keep his idiosyncratic opinions about a-posteroi knowledge and relativism to himself or cite them as opinions of various philosophers. Not everyone believes that “Strictly speaking A posteriori knowledge is impossible”. Except for skeptics I don’t think any philosopher holds this. I don’t understand why he posted a link to relativism just after this, I can see several possible conceptual links, but none of these are stated or explained in the text. The claim that knowledge is belief plus justification misses the third element of the traditional triad account of knowledge, truth. The link to the sociology of knowledge article is not really relevant in this context. “Knowledge in the sense of understanding or truth” sticks out as a particularly odd quote from this section.

“Knowledge can also be described as a psychological state, since in a strict sense there can never be a posteriori knowledge proper.” As I have said earlier the claim about there being no a posteriori knowledge is a little odd to say the least. Also the link between the rejection of A posteriori knowledge and describing knowledge as a psychological state is not made clear and appears to be original research. The three questions given at the end are very weird, ambiguous and confusing. Take “does subjective experience count as evidence for objective reality” that depends on the definitions you give, in one sense all experience is “subjective” ( i.e it is experience which is experienced by a subject, a person an animal etc). The claim that different definitions of truth is a major source of conflict in the debate is not warranted by the literature, wherein philosophers atheist and theist almost always share the same conception of truth, the claim that different definitions of knowledge are responsible for the confusions is perhaps half right, debates about the meaning of knowledge and religious epistemology fill the literature however the basic idea that ( subtleties surrounding the Gettier problem put aside for a moment) that knowledge is true, justified, belief is basically accepted. Overall this section is perhaps most in need of a cleanup, not much is salvagble.

The definition given of Metaphysical arguments for the existence of god is weird, it claims that such arguments are meant to be deductively valid. One of the arguments the author lists in this section, the cosmological argument, are sometimes given as inductive arguments ( Richard Swinburne is one of the primary defenders of this approach). I’ve never seen the “Pantheistic argument” before, but that might just be my ignorance. The categories basically seem made up and arbitrary.

The empirical arguments section is weird, moral arguments for the existence of god are categorically not empirical and neither are the versions of the transcendental argument which I have seen.

The subjective arguments section is very poor, an attempt to argue from miracles is not a “subjective” argument as far as I can tell, but because no statement of what the author means by subjective ( one of the English languages most ambiguous words) is here given I wouldn’t know. All the definitions of subjective in this context I can think of either render the list either inaccurate or POV ( perhaps for example the author thinks that subjective refers to experiential arguments, arguments from religious experiences, in which case the list is inaccurate, or perhaps he means subjective in the epistemologically derogatory sense, in which case the list is POV.)

The source quoted in the first section of empirical arguments against the existence of god is confused. Deism isn’t fuzzily defined under any standard definitions of fuzzy. The text seems to present a false dilemma between creationist theistic belief and deism. The source cannot be considered reliable

It’s hard to see that Sartre’s existenalist rejection of the existence of god on the grounds that man creates his own nature is an inductive argument, it’s hard to classify but if anything it’s a deductive argument.

The no reason argument is poorly explained.

The deductive arguments section includes “The counter argument against the cosmological argument” this is not an argument against the existence of god, Christians, even those who believe the existence of god can be rationally demonstrated, might use it.

To summarize, this article is filled with inaccuracies, irrelevancies, poor use of categories, original research, points of view, overconfident interjections, poor word selection, undefined terms which appear to have an idiosyncratic meaning and a tendency to attempt to bring in major philosophers when it only confuses the discussion.

Dear 58.105.65.186, thanks for your insightful comments. Feel free to be bold and edit the article to help remove these problems. (By the way, on talk pages like this, please sign your posts with four tildes, which puts your username or IP and a date stamp after your post; this makes it much easier to follow arguments. Also, new sections normally go at the bottom of the page.) - Mglg 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transcendental argument

This section is poorly explained. Also it is unclear why transcendental arguments are catergorized as emprical, most, probably all, aren't.

[edit] What About Buddhism?

In this entire article arguing the existence or non-existence of God, you don't mention the Buddhist perspective, not even as a one line blurb somewhere around agnosticism. The Buddha offered a pretty unique perspective on things for his time (or our time for that matter). He said that yeah there is an un-born creator, but don't even start to talk about that, that has nothing to do with the path to happiness. He gave a parable about a man who had been struck with a poison arrow. If this man in search for help found a surgeon that could remove the arrow, but before allowing it to be removed said, "I will not allow you to remove this arrow until you tell me, who shot the arrow, what kind of person he is, (or is it a she), why was the arrow shot, what type of poison was used, and what type of bow was it was fired with". By the time all of those questions are answered that man would surely die. That’s just about how futile our search for God and meaning are, so just give it up and find happiness. Perhaps the same idea the Buddha had, has been communicated by different philosophers but The Buddha certainly deserves at least a tiny mention in all this, if for nothing else other than starting an organised religion without acknowledging a certain god as the creator. (I can accept if for that reason you would call Buddhism a philosophy, but in my experience philosophy is perhaps too narrow a word for Buddhism, and religion is too broad a word). But now I've gone off on a crazy Buddhism tangent, and the intial reason for my comment has been lost, so I'll restate: At least think about throwing in a bit of Buddhism into this existence of God argument.

~Max Lupo~

Yeah, you brought up a very good point. I don't know anything about this though. One of the other editors might, or if you're impatient, you could add something in yourself - this is a wiki. WP:BB :) Infinity0 talk 13:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I considered adding something similar, but let me give you the reasons I didn't: First of all, the relationship between Buddhism and God/gods is quite complex -- it probably deserves an article in itself (and, in fact, has been the subject of even the subject (or a major subject) of several books. That said, the Buddha (according to the Pali canon) said nothing about a creator deity at all: he neither affirmed nor denied it (in the specific passage Max Lupo has in mind, he was asked about the start of samsara, and refused to answer). That said, devas and asuras are a part of Buddhist cosmology (and the samsaric cycle). Since this page seems to be arguments for or against the existence of God/gods, I don't think this is quite the appropriate page to add something about the Buddhist view of gods. Perhaps a link should be added to God in Buddhism? Ig0774 20:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC). PS added link.
It should be remembered that there is not A buddhist perspective on the question of God/s' existence.

what HINDUISM? they have many deities?Angelofdeath275 21:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

More importantly, do they have any arguments for or against their existence? crazyeddie 20:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deism

I think we could add a blurb and link on deism, probably to the theism section. I think it's a legitimate subset of theism.

Also I might take issue with the statement in the section on agnosticism that suggests an automatic skepticism toward religious arguments. As an example, I offer myself: I don't consider myself wholly agnostic, but I don't really have anything against religious arguments, and I'm certainly not biased against them or automatically skeptical of them (I'm pretty much non-practicing, but I still consider myself a theist). Does anyone else think this may be worth re-wording? Othersider 06:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both points. Deism certainly played an important part in the arguments advanced for the existence of God. As for the Agnosticism thing, I'm not sure it actually says that agnostics are necessarily skeptical of religious arguments, but it is poorly worded. Thanks for bringing it up. Ig0774 06:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An Argument From Evil

I think some of David Hume's arguments regarding a deity's existence would be a helpful addition to some of the arguments made in this article. In Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion he argues through the persona of Philo that it is not merely the truth of evil, but more the enormous amount of evil in the world that makes it doubtful whether or not a deity exists. Hume also argues that there is more evil than good, making the harmonizing of a belief in the existence of a God who is in control of everything. Hume appears to argue that the misery people go through is what causes them to constantly be looking forward to the future, when they hope their situation might improve. The same tendency that causes people to look forward to a better future causes them to worship, sacrifice, and pray toward some higher power than themselves. In a way people are convincing themselves that they truly believe in some higher being which can deliver them, but in reality are only believing or desiring a means of release from their despair. An all-powerful higher being, who would be capable of delivering them, would be the best possible means in answering the problem of their situation. Hume argues that what drives people to believe what they do about religion is that they are "not satisfied with life" and they are "afraid of death." Though I do not agree with Hume's conclusion on God's existence I thought his reasoning for not believing in a deity's existence was very thought provoking. Mancalf

It's what's proposed to be included in Problem of evil. User:Kenosis said he'll add something on Hume sometime, in the "history" section. -- infinity0 00:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want, add a paragraph in this article to:

The problem of evil (or theodicy) in general, and the logical and evidential arguments from evil in particular contest the existence of a god who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent by arguing that such a god would not permit the existence of perceivable evil or suffering, which can easily be shown to exist. WAS 4.250 00:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want, add a subsection at Problem of evil. WAS 4.250 00:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

So in a way it can be said that for some it becomes a Self-fulfilling prophecy? I believe we also need to find a way to seperate dogmatic religion from this as well, as often it isn't the belief in a god which ends up being discussed but the religious institution who is trying to maintain its own base of power which interjects and causes confusion on the subject. As an example, what better way to organise a structure of belief than to present a prize (entry to heaven), offer a path to reaching that prize (following their religion), indicate that the prize is highly desired above everything else (say how wonderful it is thre) and then specifically deny any means of circumventing getting there (suicide denies you the prize). Concepts of heaven, what must be done to get there, what rituals must be followed, actions taken, and "rules" for governing admission or expulsion are all based purely in dogma and have nothing at all to do with the belief in a deity. One can have belief without having dogma, yet one cannot have dogma without the belief. Enigmatical 04:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

As to the existance of both a universe with evil and God's creation of it, it has traditionally been explained as the need to maintain 'free-will'. An alternative argument might be that the universe is a kind of open 'experiment' that could only be conducted if the possibility of evil could occur. Moreover, if this universe was 'inferered with' ie to stop evil from occuring, (ie God's intervention), this would interfere with the experimental purpose of the universe. Therefore, not only is the possibility of evil occurring a part of the fabric of the universe's existance, but also the non-interferance of such 'evil'. This argument is supported by what we know of science, and partly explains the existance of evil in a universe created by God. Furthermore, this explanation is entirely consistent with the cosmological argument, although I haven;t read too many palces which advocate the 'experiment model of the universe'.Posted by Roger McEvilly

In belief systems with many human like gods, the gods themselves were both good and evil like humans. In ancient Hebrew thought, the Hebrew God was one of many gods - this evolved into belief in one all powerful God who lied (read about Moses) and killed (the flood) and toyed with human lives (Job) - this evolved into belief in a world divided into forces of Good versus forces of Evil (a few hundred BC to a few hundred AD) which is when the issue of "an all good God" was created causing the need for a theological solution to the latest cultural belief structures. Throw in non-Western beliefs and Modern beliefs and it really gets interesting. WAS 4.250 18:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
So where are you getting this info from? The dates are the most suspect, ±2 centuries from birth of Christianity? Even most minimalists give an earlier date. Can you please provide some sources for this "evolution" and its timeline?
Also, in terms of evil, how do we define evil vs. good?
Thanks.Omegarad 07:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wonderfully constructed article

This is turning into a wonderfully constructed article. keep it up. Just always balance it out. - 24.197.141.33

Thanks. Please help out in whatever way you can. WAS 4.250 15:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematical Argument

Mathematical argument redirects to Parameter. Which is not the meaning that is being referred to in this article. Either we need a disambiguation page or a different link on this page. Matt73 13:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the sentence because it is in a list of arguments that God exists in reality, like trees, not exists as a concept, like zero. WAS 4.250 15:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

POV, mathematical Platonism is very popular, I for one think that zero does not exist "as a concept". Which sentence are you refering to.

Maybe, but it isn't a formalised argument for the existence of God. It's just a position amongst mathematicians AFAIK which isn't supported by a proper argument. -- infinity0 14:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
It's more a philosophical postion than a mathematical one and I'm only responding to WAS and his reason for deleting "the sentence" whatever that might be.

[edit] Flawed Premise

I am not sure exactly where such things should go, but if we are talking about defining exactly what god is and thus defining what proof or knowledge is, we should also point out the following 2 indesputable facts:

  1. All of this discussion is based from a humanistic point of view, one in which all humans are born (ie have a beginning), live, and die (ie have an ending). The ability for the human psyche to comprehend anything beyond a finite quantity (ie all of eternity, forever, infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, etc) is thus limited due to the point of view of the philosopher. This limited understanding would lead one to believe that there must have been a creator simply because we all have creators (our parents)... thus we have a flawed premise that just as we were created, so too must the universe. Anything which uses this premise as the basis for validation should be tempered with the understanding that there is no must involved, only that it holds true to a finitely humanistic point of view
  1. Use of personal experience to determine existence (ie "God spoke to me" or "I felt Gods presence"). While I am sure people are 100% completely convinced that this is true and thus by their own belief (which noone else can deny conclusively) is used as the premise for existance... it does not behaviourally exhibit any difference to someone who falsely believes in something they have personally experienced. As we are talking about the human mind, and that mind is known for a propensity to deny and modify its own "facts" for purposes of protection, any use of this premise should be tempered with the understanding that a personal experience (ie subjective) does not equate to anyone else other than that one person (ie objective). If a person swears with 100% conviction they saw a UFO we call them crazy, but if a person swears with 100% conviction they had a personal experience of God we grant them a different judgement. When the subject dictates the type of response, despite both having the same quantity and quality of validation it does indicate that the subject itself inherantly alters the point of view.

Just thought it worth noting. Enigmatical 04:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No list of proofs/disproofs?

Is there not an article listing historic arguments for/against the existence of a higher power? I came across a supposed "strong argument" while reading through the 1728 Cyclopaedia (which pre-dates Darwin):

The Branches of Trees are observ'd, almost constantly, to shoot from the Trunk at an Angle of 45 Degrees : The Reason is, that the whole Spreading being generally confin'd within an Angle of 90 Degrees, as the most becoming and useful disposition ; that space could not be well fill'd up any other way, than by forming all the Intersections which the Shoots and Branches make, with Angles of 45 Degrees only. A strong Argument, that the Plastick Capacities of Matter, are under the Guidance of a wise Being.

If we don't have a list, I think it would be an interesting addition, especially with respect to the historic arguments for a higher being, and which ones have been disproven as a result of advances in understanding, and which ones remain unresolved, etc. --BRIAN0918 22:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I would urge caution against such a list. This could open the floodgates for thousands of "Science hasn't yet to fully explain the evolution of the eye / Bumblebee flight / whatever - therefor god MUST have designed them!" listings from evangelicals, all well sourced from the various evangelical magazines. Academically, this would turn the article into a laughing stock and detract from the article's philosophical nature. Canderra 23:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Please note that we are talking about historical (ie: notable) arguments, not the opinions of random people, and certainly not proofs. So, it wouldn't open the floodgates. We could even restrict it to ancient/pre-modern arguments, or arguments within historic books/documents. --BRIAN0918 00:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I would have to agree here. For every proof/disproof, a person who comes from the opposing side of the argument would say that they see something completely different in the same "data". Take the above example. That the Angle is 45 degrees only suggests to them that it shows guidance of a wise being... where as to a scientist it simply shows the natural laws of physics where all forms of energy seek to use the least amount of energy to maintain its form and 45 degrees is this very configuration. We would end up going back and forth forever. Quite frankly, I think the whole discussion about the existence of god is a subjective one and is most definately not an objective one. With that being the case there will never be a resolution as a person is not about to change their subjective opinion on something through any means of proof, fact, data or anything else. Its a matter of personal preference, not right and wrong. Enigmatical 23:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not talking about making a debate page. I am talking about historical (ie: notable) arguments, not the opinions of random people. It could even be restricted in certain ways, as I mentioned in a reply above. While it is true that certain counterarguments don't address more fundamental arguments, nor possible counter-counterarguments, that is not the point of a counterargument. --BRIAN0918 00:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Can you provide an example to illustrate your point. To my knowledge, there doesn't exist an historical argument which has ever been disproved. While those who disprove it believe it has, those who have the subjective opposing view believe it didn't go far enough to disprove anything. Unless of course you are talking about incredibly simplistic things like "God is the sun"... but some may argue even that cannot be disproved because we have yet to travel there and know for sure that it is what we think it is. Enigmatical 00:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Again, as I said, we are talking about arguments, not proofs. Such arguments can never be proven/disproven. If one person says "the Bible says X", while another person says "science shows Y", Y may be a counterargument against X, but believers of X might posit a counter-counteragument Z. The point of the article would be to list these back-and-forths arguments; of course, we would only include those arguments which are sufficiently notable, as we would with any other list on Wikipedia. --BRIAN0918 01:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
But that is my point. What you found is something you are claiming is an argument for the existence of God, yet I read that very same piece of text as being a very strong argument against the existence of God and yet it is the very same argument. Some see design as proof, while others see design as being natural and that it is only a humanistic condition to believe that any kind of structure must have come from a divine source. So how are we to list arguments for/against when we cannot even agree which is for and which is against? Its subjective, not objective. Enigmatical 02:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
We don't do original research. Obviously, if we are taking arguments from historical texts, the person writing the argument is going to specify whether he means it is for/against the existence of God. Whether or not you agree with that is entirely unimportant. We document; we don't interpret. --BRIAN0918 17:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Why not start the list here, we can look at what has been found and decide if its feasible. Enigmatical 06:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this a proof? Does it work? What category would it fit under? P: God G: Reality Assume there is no God. If there is no God, there can be no proof. If there is no proof, there can be no reality. If there is no God, there can be no proof because you can’t prove anything without making claims. You can’t claim anything without making assumptions. Assumptions are not consistent with the nature of proof. Therefore, there can be no proof. If there is no proof, there can be no reality. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics both show that reality is defined by perception. Since perception is defined by belief and belief is defined by proof, there can’t be adequate reality. Also, there can be no inadequate reality because reality is an absolute concept. Since there is reality, God must exist. If there is a God, then you can make claims without making assumptions, which means there can be proof, and therefore reality. (The definition of God is Inherent Truth. This is a good definition of God because if you prove something using an inherent Truth, all of reality is derived from that Truth, which means that the Truth is omnipotent.)

BULLSHIT! LOL!

[edit] Christian God only?

At a quick glance this entire (otherwise great) article seems to be written from the perspective there is only one divine concept worth discussing: the (Judeo-)Christian "God". Little acknowledgement is made of of all other religions. Such Eurocentricity made some sense centuries ago when many of these arguments were first formulated, at a time when culture (to Europeans) meant European culture; it makes considerably less sense for a 21st century global encyclopedia. It is fine for the article to discuss only the existence or nonexistence of the Christian god, if that is what the it intends to cover. But in that case there absolutely needs to be a sentence very early on (I'd say one of the two or three first sentences) to point out that that is all the article intends to cover. Alternatively, the article might want to direct itself to a broader question of the existence of "a deity or deities", "any supernatural forces", or similar, but that may distract from the clean structure of the article, since most of its source material is indeed from the European/Christian tradition. I would suggest the first option, to specify early on what concept(s) the article means to cover. Maybe even modify the title? - Mglg 22:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

After a slightly less quick glance I see that the problem isn't quite as severe as I first thought, given what's in the "What is God?" section. Sorry for the hasty comment. But even though that section acknowledges some diversity in divine concepts across religions, the "Arguments for the existence of God" section and most of the rest of the article is still written from a "God means the Christan god" perspective. There still needs to be at least some mention of this bias. Mglg 22:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Almost every entry in empirical arguments against god is simply evidence against the Christian God; has nothing to do a supreme being overall. ~ UBeR

[edit] Euthyphro's dilemma

Just wondering why Euthyphro's dilemma is absent from this page.

Euthyphro's dilemma has little to do with the existence of God. At most, it might be useful as a counterargument to Argument from morality. crazyeddie 23:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] intelligent design

How is it possible for the scientific community to challenge intelligent design? I mean, they have to believe in design at least. Even Richard Dawkins does. Scorpionman 15:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

1) This isn't the place for such a discussion. 2) I would suspect that the problem is with intelligent design. Evolution can give rise to organisms that appear to be "designed," but evolution itself is not intelligent - it lacks intentional stance, a prequisite of intelligence. crazyeddie 23:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Scorpionman, the invariable reason people deny the existence of God or "superior spirit", (or even decide to try to believe it when they normally wouldn't, or to hold onto it under duress) is because they have an emotional reason not to. If there is no God, I can't think of a reason to abstain from sex until marriage. The idea that everything came out of 'nothing' is ridiculous. Anyone who looks at this concept with an open mind will ultimately be at least agnostic... but what percentage of people actually [i]know[/i] the Big Bang Theory/evolution?

Ok, that was a rant, and was off-topic. :)

Yoda921 03:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Yoda


Now firstly, you claim that if there is no god, you cannot think of a reason to abstain from pre-marital sex. Firstly, what is your point? Are you claiming that as the consquences of god not existing are unpleasant/unacceptable to you, he must exist? Secondly, whether or not there is a god, morality and ethics are still possible, whether or not you, personally, can see why. We can all consider the social implications of our actions, and even trace them back to ourselves for selfish reasons if need be.

Now you claim "The idea that everything came out of 'nothing' is ridiculous." Well I agree it is ridculous. The funny thing, however, is that no one is claiming this. You obviously have no idea of the way in which evolution functions. Even to say that as evolution/the big bang don't account for everything, it is no proof of god. Simply disproving evolution does not in anyway prove god's existence. If you are invoking a god of the gaps, you are, I believe, simply deluding yourself. Just as we cannot explain the universe, it doesn't mean we wont be able to or that, in the absence of evidence, we can simply substitute a completely irrational god or deity in its temporary place. It would seem you hold on to notions of god as it is comforting and the consquences of his not existing, would be unacceptable to you. I suggest that you consider the possibilty that god does not exist. Before you suggest I do that same, let me tell you I am more than willing to, as long as you provide with proof. Proof is, however, what god lacks and is given in the place of. I apologise for the typos and grammatical errors, but I am, very, very tired. -Tim-THobern 03:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It's funny you ask for proof for the existence of God, when, in fact, there is not any proof one DOESN'T exist. ~ UBeR 03:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The same thing goes for a 6 foot tall, pink rabbit called Harvey. Just as something can't be disproved doesn't validate it in anyway. I think your labouring under the delusion that all propositions have equal merit, which is ridiculous; a million ridiculous things cannot be disproven, that doesn't mean we should give them any consideration.-Tim-THobern 05:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I full well understand the ideas of confirmation in relation to verifiability and falsifiability. Truth is independent of verifiability. Likewise, it also independent of falsifiability. I believe, however, it is much harder (if not, basically, impossible) to falsify God (depends entirely on one's definition). ~ UBeR 05:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Causility VS. the existence of a God

So how is the concept of causility or "cause and effect" more justifiable than the existence of God? Both cannot be empirically tested; you can not "experience" both with your five senses. I understand that one concept can be "believed in more" than the other; for example, you COULD say that you believe in cause and effect more than you believe in the existence of God. But you can't say, from an empiricist point of view; that you KNOW casualty or God exists. So what I'm asking is how can scientists (and empiricists) believe in the concept of "cause and effect" more than they believe in the existence of God? How is causility more justified (and therefore, more readily "assumeable") than the existence of God? You can't say you know they both exist according to Hume, if you are an empiricisst, but why would anyone be an atheist (not believe in God), but assume that causility exist? 165.196.139.24 21:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, first off, what is causality? IIRC, it means that one event must follow another by necessity. "Necessary" truths, in philosophical jargon, means that the truth is required to be true in all possible universes - it is impossible for this truth to be wrong in any logically consistent system. In contrast, there are "contigent" truths which are true in this particular universe, but it is possible that there are universes where this truth doesn't hold. So, in other words, if event B absolutely has to happen if event A happens, then we say that event A causes event B.
IIRC, Hume tied the notion of causality to the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature, which roughly states that, given a similar situation, you are going to have similar results. If we run an experiment and get different results, we start looking for the different inputs to the experiment that caused the divergence in results.
Hume pointed out that the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature lacks justification, for reasons too complicated to get into here. His positive view states that we come up with it out of habit - seeing many similar "experiments" yielding similar results. If he were around today, he might say that we evolved an instict for this principle, because it works in general. After all, if the PUN isn't true, then there is no reason not to play in traffic, because being hit by a car might not necessarily result in death and/or severe pain.
Interestingly enough, we seem to have empirical evidence that the PUN is not true in all cases - see quantum indeterminacy. Even if the environments (including the internal environments) of two different radioactively unstable nucleus are exactly the same, it is not given that they will emit radiation at the same time. We can only give probablistic predictions of such an experiment. There are also strong theoritical reasons to believe that such indeterminacy is fundamental, and not just an artifact of our ignorance, but how things are in reality. The PUN, and by extension deterministic causality, appears to be not entirely true at sub-atomic levels.
So, causality doesn't exist in any absolute sense. Fun, hun? But it works well enough in our everyday world, and without, there doesn't seem to be any reason not to run down the street naked and screaming, since there is no way of (absolutely) predicting the consequences. It might be that some scientists believe in causality, but that's because they're ignorant, unlike us philosophers :-) That and they might be sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LA-LA-LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" However, I'm not sure that the fact that causality isn't true helps your case for arguing that God exits. If causality isn't absolute, then not every event requires a cause, so there is no need for a First Cause. Of course, if God is an "uncaused cause," then God Himself would be a counterexample proving that causality is bunk. Either way, the Cosmological Argument simply won't hold water. It is possible that God exists, of course, baring any convincing arguments from the Strong Atheists, but this Weak Atheist believes that the possibility is remote. crazyeddie 00:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pascal's Wager

While this may border more on the philosophical and psychological sides than the theological side (which this article does a great job explaining), I feel that it is missing a reasons for/against an individual person believing in God or a Supreme Being. I think that the entire section, or at least its prototype, can be molded around Pascal's Wager and Paschal's Flaw, as well as more conventional thought processes as the inherent inborn need find the truth to our existence, devoting time to what is accordingly important to either the betterment of the human species and our knowledge of science or our own personal beliefs (dictated by ones belief against or in God), etc. The section shouldn't be too long, but should probably passingly mention Voltaire, C.S. Lewis and/or Bertrand Russell. --Lord Ramco 19:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chad's epistomological concerns

[edit] Arguments for the possibility of the non-existence of God

It seems to me that non of the arguments against the existence of God actually argue against God's existence. Rather they are arguments for the possibility of reality's existence without a need for God. Can some actual arguments against God's existence be provided? Or is that not really possible?

--chad 10:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The aruments are the same for invisible unicorns. WAS 4.250 18:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

DAMN STRAIGHT!

[edit] Probability?

I noticed that in this article often probability is used in arguments either directly or indirectly (e.g. Occam's razor). But how can one really ask the question "how probable is the existence of God?" I think not. The only way to answer such a question is if we could somehow say "of the 1 million realities in existence, three of them were created by a God. So the probability of God's existence in our reality is extremely low (0.0003% chance)." We can't say anything about probability here.

--chad 10:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The aruments are the same for invisible unicorns. WAS 4.250 18:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Useless comment above me. The probabily argument is used more against refuting the Big Bang Theory as well as evolution (which both had a success rate of less than 0.000001%), indicating that either the theories are incorrect, or that they were guided by an 'intelligent designer.' I'm not sure if it refers (directly) to the existence of God.

Yoda921 03:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Yoda921

Excuse me? From where do you get these statistics? While evolution is indeed an unguided process, there is still a driving force behind it. Even if your unsourced statistics are true, then its a case of the prosecutor's fallacy. As something unlikely has happened, it hasn't. try telling that to a lottery winner. -Tim-THobern 03:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well one estimate comes from William Lane Craig. A basic reasoning, of philosophical nature, goes as follows: "The evidence of the Big Bang is extremely impressive. According to this theory, though, the initial conditions of our universe (~13.7 billion years ago) were inherently chaotic: From such beginnings, and with no helpful interventions from a higher power, it is mindbogglingly unlikely that a universe such as ours (an animate universe) would evolve. Craig reckons the odds at one in ten to the ten to the one-hundred-and-twenty-fourth power! Pr(universe animate/big bang + atheism) = .000...(10124 times)...1. But this otherwise unlikely result (an animate universe) is just what theism would lead one to expect: Ours is the sort of universe God would see fit to create. Pr(universe animate/big bang + theism) = 1." ~ UBeR 04:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Craig is basing this on...? Anyone can reckon what they like, it doesn't make it any truer, especially when it flies in the face of the general scientific consensus. -Tim-THobern 05:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The general scientific consensus is against the Big Bang theory? I though just the otherwise! That's argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad verecundiam, anyway. Besides, science is not here to prove or disprove God. That is not its purpose, and it is well beyond the scope of science; it simply doesn't have the ability. ~ UBeR 06:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I was talking about a Evolution, not the big bang. Secondly for someone who has repeatedly submitted to ad ignoratum, you're awfully high and mighty. Thirdly, Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the general consensus, ad populum or not. -THobern-THobern 03:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Funny. So can you please explain to me how this theory of Evolution proves God does not exist? ~ UBeR 05:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Just after you quote me my having said that. I said that your statisitc (0.000001%) was both plain wrong and misleading. See prosecutor's fallacy--THobern 09:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what this has to do with evolution. ~ UBeR 01:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] William Hatcher's proof?

I have added an entry William Hatcher's proof in the For part of the article and provided a link. I am unsure whether we can provide external link in the article itself or should use footnotes instead; if anyone wishes to edit it, please do. Also, the "proof" itself is of decent length, but not too long; should the whole proof be presented in the article, or should it have its own article? Allan Lee 23:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Articles on William Hatcher, on his books(s), and on his theory should all exist. I suspect his theory will belong in a category of theories that we already have an article on and mention of his theory can also go there. Probably mention doesn't belong in this article, but write the article on the theory or the book descibing the theory and let's see then. Meanwhile I have noticed that the intro is too short and needs to adequately summarize the article. Maybe I'll get around to that. WAS 4.250 12:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
His article already exists, but only touches on his proof briefly. I do not see an article for his proof specifically, and I went through all the other articles of "For" arguements but do not see one that fits his arguement. I mean, there's not even a catagory of "Deductive" before. Perhaps I'll create a main article, then add a brief description here to link to that. Allan Lee 18:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok I did some searches, and his proof has not yet been documented in Wikipedia at all. I'll add an article, then add a new entry here afterwards. Allan Lee 18:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro tweaks

I removed "clearly logically impossible" to "apparently self-contradictory" because this is something of a disputed question. I removed "Epistemological problems such as the "problem of the supernatural" cause no end to the misunderstandings involved in arguments for and against the existence of God" because it seems rather odd to single out this as a point of confusion, when there are plenty of complex philosophical discussed on this page. Also, it is unreferenced. -- Beland 20:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only way to prove it.

I don't agree with arguing over the exsistence of God. The only way to prove he does exsist is if we of course die. Anker99 00:37, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

That is Eschatological verification. 194.80.178.1 15:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Or if He showed himself empirically. (Thus, I say, God is verifiable, but not necessarily falsifiable.) ~ UBeR 03:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Even if you die and witness nothing for eternity it still doesn't "prove" that the universe was not created by an intelligent being. Sadly even dieing doesn't seem like a surefire way to "know" for sure. --Jayson Virissimo 20:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I concede. ~ UBeR 21:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does God Exist?

True, there is a "problem of evil." Here there is a contrast. There are millions of millionaires and countless affulent people across the US and much of Europe. Then you have people who could live on five thousand dollars a year over in Third World countries. There is an imbalance in our world. What would benevolence be if we all were equal? It would put one above another. Picture if Hollywood emptied out its collective billions of dollars, the hoarding governments of this world thousands of tons of gold and the trillions and trillions of dollars they spend finding new ways to kill their enemies. Jesus once said,"What you have been given, you have been given to share." Are we doing this? And if we assume God exists, we assume all that He is said to be. And if we assume this, a "What if all of the Bible were true, if all the Cathecism of the Catholic Church said was true?" view, challenge me on my talk page. Find a contradiction. Please. Assume it is true and look for an "innocent until proven guilty."

Chris 21

This has nothing to do with the article. Try reading it. WAS 4.250 04:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I just read all the "against" arguments, and they're all pretty pathetic. The problem of "evil" ultimately comes from an abuse of free will. -Yoda —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yoda921 (talk • contribs) 09:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC).
There are multiple reasons to explain God, given by theists:
  • Evil is the absence of God, in the same way that cold is the absence of heat, and dark is the absence of light
  • The Devil — An evil entity preys upon the weak of will, winning many of the flawed to his side where they are first welcomed, then sent out to do his bidding. While God is ultimately fated to win the final battle against this adversary, until that time the entity's minions wreak havoc.
  • Free Will — God gave his children the right to make up their own minds as to who they would be, and some chose to be rotten.
  • Incomprehensibility — "Good" and "evil" are human constructs born of Mankind's limited understanding of the universe. Were people capable of seeing things through God's eyes, they would grasp the morality and rightness of all that now leaves them aghast in horror and riddled with unease at its seeming unfairness.
~ UBeR

[edit] I have a question

According to the laws of Conservation of Energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed. How then, does anything exist in the first place? JONJONAUG 13:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

that's a problem for the science help desk. --Charlesknight 13:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Or a philosopher. The physicists tend to dump the whole "why is there something rather than nothing" into our lap. On the other hand, there is some speculation that if you add everything up in the universe, everything cancels out to a big huge zero. Because of this, the universe could have just sprung into being from nothing, without violating any conservation laws. This is just speculation, though. crazyeddie 19:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Another idea is that all universes with all possible rule sets just exist and we are just in one of them. This at first glance anyways seems just as likely as there simply being nothing or the existence of a creator. Lonjers 22:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Asking where the energy originaly came from is like asking a Christain where God came from, they will either say that it was alwayse there or leave the chat room. 58.173.8.17 04:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Or science just makes no claims because it does not know yet where as religion makes a guess from an infinity of possibilities. Lonjers 02:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What were the gnostics?

I refered to gnostics in the section on agnosticism. Ideally, the reference would have been followed by a parenthetical comment of the form, "(not to be confused with the Peruvian football club of that name.)" Only they weren't a football club, I think. more like an ancient Greek religion or philosopy. So, does anybody know what they were really? Wiploc 03:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Never mind. I took care of it after looking up gnostics in Wikipedia. :) The gnostics were a "religious movement." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiploc (talk • contribs) 03:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Problems with Empirical Arguments against God

All of the empirical arguments against God are only arguments against the Christian God. The assumption that God does not exist because you've denied the literal translation of the Bible is false. ~ UBeR 05:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Well actually the article does make mention of different definitions of God. To people who believe God is "whatever" created the universe, telling them there are flaws in the bible isn't even a valid argument. --Jayson Virissimo 20:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should this be included in the "arguments against" list?

In the 1980 case of R. v. Davie 1980, the British Columbia Court of Appeal in Canada ruled that God is not a person. The court rendered the decision in the case of alleged arsonist Morrie Davie. In that case, a policeman had overheard Davie say: "Oh , God, let me get away with it just this once," but the appeals court ruled that a prayer is not a "private conversation between two persons," (which would be admissible evidence), because God is not a person. This ruling runs counter to the argument that Jesus is God and walked the earth as a person.[11]

Basically saying "The Canadians decided there wasn't one" is a little weak against the other points. 81.129.136.254 15:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It really shouldn't be. ~ UBeR 23:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Canada recognizes "the supremacy of God" in its Charter of Human Rights. 216.16.236.133 17:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Marc A. Belanger
That whole situation is ridiculous - what do you think that arsonist would do if he could freely perform his actions? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yoda921 (talk • contribs) 11:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] "Arguments against"... Against What?

What exactly is being argued against? The article points out in the introduction and the section Definition of God's existence that "a basic problem is that there is no universally accepted definition of God. Some definitions of God's existence are so non-specific that it is certain that something exists that meets the definition; in stark contrast, other definitions are apparently self-contradictory." So which definition(s) exactly is/are being argued against in the against section? It seems to me that arguments against all major/significant definitions of God should be presented. This would include, for example, the Christian and Muslim ideas of God, making it important that arguments against this conception of God be presented. However, UBeR maintains that the following sections should not be included.

  • Massimo Pigliucci summarizes the forms of argument against various conceptions of God thus:

Within the framework of scientific rationalism one arrives at the belief in the nonexistence of God, not because of certain knowledge, but because of a sliding scale of methods. At one extreme, we can confidently rebut the personal Gods of creationists on firm empirical grounds: science is sufficient to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there never was a worldwide flood and that the evolutionary sequence of the Cosmos does not follow either of the two versions of Genesis. The more we move toward a deistic and fuzzily defined God, however, the more scientific rationalism reaches into its toolbox and shifts from empirical science to logical philosophy informed by science. Ultimately, the most convincing arguments against a deistic God are Hume's dictum and Occam's razor. These are philosophical arguments, but they also constitute the bedrock of all of science, and cannot therefore be dismissed as non-scientific. The reason we put our trust in these two principles is because their application in the empirical sciences has led to such spectacular successes throughout the last three centuries. [1]

Uber, you say that "these are arguments against a Christian God, not a higher being, per se, as the article calls for." But the article is not "Existence of a higher being." The article is "Existence of God," and therefore discusses the concept that is encapsulated in the word God, which includes the Christian God. Dave Runger(t)⁄(c) 05:19, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dave R, above, that arguments about a christian god should be included, but arguments based on Occam's Razor or inconsistent revelation apply to any monotheistic god, and should be included on that basis as well. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 08:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem with atheism is that it is dependent on what your definition of God is. One cannot simply be atheist because he finds flaws in the literal translations of the Bible; one cannot simply be atheist simply because he does not follow Christianity. That is simply to be un-Christian. Same for the Torah and Judaism, or the Qur'an and Islam. To deny the Bible is not to deny a higher being. From my prospective, this article deals with the arguments for and against a higher being. Disproving claims in the Bible does not prove or disprove a higher being. If you wanted it to, then this article should henceforth be titled Arguments against the Bible or Arguments against the Christian God. This article is based on logical reasoning. To say because the Torah and the Bible do not agree in some aspects, therefore God or a higher being does not exist is, flatly, a fallacy. ~ UBeR 03:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Uber, why are you singling out the argument from inconsistent revelations? In order to argue against the existence of God, God must be defined somehow. Virtually all of the other arguments against the existence of God presented in this article define God in some way; additionally, these definitions are more specific than a "higher being," which you apparently advocate as the only definition of God to be used in this article. For example, "The problem of evil in general, and the logical and evidential arguments from evil in particular contest the existence of a god who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent [emphasis added]." Why don't you attack this argument as refuting a specific conception of God that not all people share? A whole lot of the other "against" arguments in the article use a definition of God as omnipotent/omniscient/(and/or)omnibenevolent. This argument defines God as a creator: "It is alleged that there is a logical impossibility in theism: God is defined as an extra-temporal being, but also as an active creator[emphasis added]."
Again, my point is that in order to argue against the existence of God, God must be defined somehow. You are saying that the article should address the idea of God as an omnipotent/omniscient/(and/or)omnibenevolent creator, but not the idea of God described in the Bible/Torah/Qur'an, even though many, many people believe in the God described by these texts? Why are you drawing the line here? I am arguing that the article should address criticisms of all major conceptions of God, not just more general definitions. --Dave Runger(t)⁄(c) 04:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Why? Because it's a perfect example of the logical fallacies presented in this article. Of course the word God has to have a definition; this is exactly what I stated. To say, however, that God can only be the God presented in the Bible or the Torah, or what have you, is completely false. Just because Christianity is dominant in the United States does not mean that God can only be defined by Christianity. For example, Massimo Pigliucci's argument, that because he does not believe a great flood occurred, there is no such thing as a God. That because he believes the Genesis lacks proof, there is scientific evidence against the existence of a God. What kind of logic is that? Faulty logic at best. Again, perhaps, if true, arguments against the Christian God, indeed. But who is to say the Christian God is God? Because a lot of people are Christians? Rubbish. ~ UBeR 07:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Edit: Furthermore, his argument that as we move away from the Christian definition of God, that Hume's Dictum and Occam's Razor are philosophical, but also scientific, arguments against God. I think just the opposite. (E.g. God is the more simpler answer.) ~ UBeR 07:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
UBeR, God is not a simpler answer to anything anymore than Maxwell's demon. Atheism classes all gods in the same class be it the god-of-gaps or the fire-and-damnation biblical god or any personal god. Atheists are not picky. It usually falls out of doubting the concept of a supernatural (of which gods are usually) and anchoring a worldview on the scientific method (which by definition does not allow for the supernatural). Specific religions present their revealed texts as "proof" or provide a "description" of their god and where these are provided then arguments can be specifically tuned to that implementation but it doesn't mean that the argument is flawed because you disagree with that particular faith's religious dogma. It equally doesn't mean that god suddenly exists in the minds of atheists because you postulate a god outside of the traditional faiths which atheists usually present arguments against. Unlike the "asymetrical disbelief" of religious people (whereby only their god is the right god) atheists equally doubt all gods. An undefined thing which is "supernatural" i.e. outside of nature (which you may refuse to call a god) will still never be accepted as a cause of a natural event in any scientific field of endevour without such a claim being labelled pseudoscience. Ttiotsw 10:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I don't think I understand...

"Weak atheists don't believe god exists, but they also don't believe god doesn't exist. Explicit weak atheists find both theist and strong atheist arguments to be unpersuasive."

U think the first statement should be rewritten; it contradicts itself. The latter sentence sounds good enough to stay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M2K 2 (talk • contribs) 15:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Agnosticism

I'm afraid the material on Agnosticism is not only unsourced but completelty Atheist PoV and would have every philosophical agnostic from Huxley to Kenny LOL. I can't see any way of salvaging it but in case there is some usable material I am keeping it here. It said: "There are two common definitions of agnosticism. By the first definition, agnosticism is an exact synonym for weak atheism: the agnostic neither believes that god exists nor believes that god does not exist, but rather is open to both possibilities without being persuaded of either. By the second definition, agnosticism refers to lack of knowledge rather than lack of belief. Thus, a gnostic (not to be confused with the gnostic religious moment of the early Christian era) knows whether there is a god, and an agnostic does not. Naturally, many of these sorts of agnostics are also weak atheists: Since they don't know whether god exists, they also don't hold a belief on the topic. But others are agnostic theists or agnostic strong atheists; they believe something they can't prove. An agnostic theist might say that he believes on faith rather than on proof. This second type of agnosticism can be divided into strong and weak subtypes. Weak agnostics personally don't know whether god exists. Strong agnostics not only don't know themselves, they believe that no one else knows either." NBeale 18:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consistent policy

We need to be consistent on our policy for arguments and counter-arguments. IMHO WikiPedia users should be able to find both each major argument and its major counter-arguments, but in a balanced way. So I suggest that:

  • for arguments which have their own article we just point to them with a quick summary, and users can find the counter-arguments there.
  • for arguments which don't have their own article we either
    • remove them or
    • give a quick summary of the main argument and the main counterargument.

Consistent with this I have (with some reluctance) removed "There is also a fourth possibility that considers Jesus as myth, not an historical figure." rather than amended it to "People who dispute this generally argue that the Gospel accounts do not record Jesus's life with sufficient accuracy, either because they are distorted or becasue his was a myth and not an historical figure" since obviously the historical-but-distorted view is an additional possiblility (and unlike the "myth" suggestion is not ludicrous!) NBeale 21:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This seems reasonable. I formatted your entry so it looks more formal, I hope you don't mind. --Merzul 22:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I was the editor who had added the link to the jesus myth article. Although I don't find it particularly ludicrous (perhaps you haven't read that article? doesn't matter anyway), I just thought it was due balance to the removal of the word "alleged" before "historical events" in the header, since it has a certain "proven fact" connotation when you mention it like that, so I was aiming to preserve the previous notion that it is not quite like that. Saying Jesus is historical without a counterpoint seems like omitting information. I'd also like to add that everything you said also should apply to the against articles, as the next discussion topic points out. Starghost (talk | contribs) 03:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem with adding words like "alleged" in cases like this is that it assumes the reader is completely incapable of judgment himself. I think it is fair to describe the argument and its context using all the assumptions that the the argument makes without having to say explicitly "Attempted arguments from alleged history of putative events and supposedly existing people". It may seem like "alleged" makes it more neutral, but it is really just condescending, I mean, if you and I are able to add the word "alleged", why do you assume the reader is not as intelligent to understand the underlying assumptions? Now, I agree that Jesus Myth is not ridiculous, nothing I personally think plausible, but it can definitely be mentioned in the Christological argument. In general, I think we should slim down the descriptions of the arguments in this article, and get to work on the articles of each argument. Many of them are in terrible shape. --Merzul 04:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
In that case you would be in agreement that all the answers for the against argument that rely on "nyah nyah, god is outside of time and is uncreated", which in most times is meaningless within or without context, and in some cases I am not even sure if they apply, with regards to the response for Sartre's existentialist argument, should be removed because it should be an underlying assumption? Starghost (talk | contribs) 18:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with most of the above. In the light of this I have (again reluctantly because I don't like removing things) removed "Massimo Pigliucci summarizes the forms of argument against various conceptions of God thus: "At one extreme, we can confidently rebut the personal Gods of creationists on firm empirical grounds: science is sufficient to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there never was a worldwide flood and that the evolutionary sequence of the Cosmos does not follow either of the two versions of Genesis. The more we move toward a deistic and fuzzily defined God, however, the more scientific rationalism reaches into its toolbox and shifts from empirical science to logical philosophy informed by science. Ultimately, the most convincing arguments against a deistic God are Hume's dictum and Occam's razor. These are philosophical arguments, but they also constitute the bedrock of all of science and are not dismissed as non-scientific. The reason we put our trust in these two principles is because their application in the empirical sciences has led to such spectacular successes throughout the last three centuries. [2]"
(a) Pigliucci is a minor figure; (b) the paper is just posted on the personal website of a Dr Ebbesen; (c) There is no comparable statement in the "for" section. NBeale 06:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I think you are misrepresenting Pigliucci here; (a) "Minor" figure - these are your personal value judgements and so are somewhat WP:OR. We need someone else notable who calls him "minor". (b) The link you provide is the first in the google search and is actually posted across many related web sites. It was originally published AFAIKS as "Personal gods, deism, & the limits of skepticism. Skeptic. 8(2): 38-45." in 2000. An intrasite search using Google on www.skeptic.com has this as http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/archives/vol08n02.html though thats just a contents list for the paper copy. (c)Culling content because a comparable statement isn't found in the "for" section isn't grounds for removal as neutral doesn't mean every minor view need be represented equally. If a view that would belong in the "for" section is minor and in fact cannot be found then that doesn't mean the corresponding view in the "against" section should be removed. For instance if a view against a pseudoscience theory is published and is representative of the general feeling of the majority of those in the field but a advocate of the pseudoscience theory can't find a corresponding rebuttal of that "against" view then that is not grounds to remove the "against" (i.e. the consensus) view. I vote that Pigliucci is restored. Ttiotsw 10:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I don't think this is a minor view. However, I think the argument is not quite a summary of the kind of arguments that follow it. But what argument is it? Maybe it can be framed as the first empirical argument, but the problem is that I can't find an argument like this on wikipedia. Maybe it is the Argument from the Parsimonious Explanations of Science, except there is no such argument, some related keywords are Ockham's razor, Relationship between science and religion, Rationality, and the slightly outdated Conflict thesis; but I'm not sure any of them are right place to put this argument. I think we should maybe put back the quotation, or place it here on the talk page asking if anybody knows how to classify this line of argument. When I said we should slim down this article, I meant primarily the stuff that is covered in other articles. --Merzul 12:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Embedded Counter-Arguments

Why does virtually every argument in the "Arguments against the existence of God" section have a counter-argument embedded in the presentation of the argument? For example, the "problem of evil" section includes a statement that begins, "However, many religions have provided explanations for God allowing evil..." The "Arguments for the existence of God" section does not have built-in counter-arguments. I think this is not NPOV. Johnskrb2 01:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think the FOR section is well written. They identify the nature of the argument, and don't actually try to make an argument here. And I think the same style should be used for the against arguments that have their own articles, such as the problem of evil. I generally don't like deleting content, but the descriptions here I think are really redundant, and so I have deleted some material. I honestly think it has improved the article, but I'm okay with reverts, if anybody objects. --Merzul 03:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. What happened to those edits? As far as I can see the article is still completely asymmetric. --Denoir 05:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I did a few easy ones, e.g. the problem of evil, but then stopped for some reason I don't recall, maybe it became more difficult or I wanted to take it easy and see how people would react. It doesn't seem like anybody has objected, so we could continue cleaning up. However, don't expect me to do it, I don't have much wikipedia time currently. --Merzul 14:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massimo Pigliucci -- deleted content

Massimo Pigliucci summarizes the forms of argument against various conceptions of God thus:

Within the framework of scientific rationalism one arrives at the belief in the nonexistence of God, not because of certain knowledge, but because of a sliding scale of methods. At one extreme, we can confidently rebut the personal Gods of creationists on firm empirical grounds: science is sufficient to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there never was a worldwide flood and that the evolutionary sequence of the Cosmos does not follow either of the two versions of Genesis. The more we move toward a deistic and fuzzily defined God, however, the more scientific rationalism reaches into its toolbox and shifts from empirical science to logical philosophy informed by science. Ultimately, the most convincing arguments against a deistic God are Hume's dictum and Occam's razor. These are philosophical arguments, but they also constitute the bedrock of all of science and are not dismissed as non-scientific. The reason we put our trust in these two principles is because their application in the empirical sciences has led to such spectacular successes throughout the last three centuries.

-- Pigliucci, Massimo (2000). "Personal Gods, Deism & the Limits of Skepticism". Skeptic 8 (2): 38-45. Retrieved on 2007-01-04. 

So where does this belong, what argument is it, and where else in wikipedia is something similar treated? --Merzul 14:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It definitely belongs in this article, thats's for sure. "What argument is it", what does this mean? Does this mean that all arguments presented need to have a name? Or are you unsure where to categorize it? I think everything referred in the argument is treated properly in the wikilinks it refers to, pretty much in the same way the other arguments are treated outside of this page. If you must name it though, I would have no objections saying "this is an Argument from scientific rationalism, in which Massimo Pigliucci summarizes the forms of..." and so on. Starghost (talk | contribs) 18:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess I would like to know where it fits, yes. I don't object to having it where it used to be, as an introduction to the against arguments, but NBeal I think removed it, and I guess he will take up the argument. --Merzul 18:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Then we'd better have a similar introduction to the for arguments NBeale 07:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Using "e.g." doesn't add anything to references

I don't know why these "see eg Polkinghorne" are so prevalent in the philosophy of religion articles, but whoever is doing this, please note that no featured article uses this style. I assume that the intention is to convey the fact that there are billion other people that could be cited... but unfortunately the only impression I get is that of laziness: if there are more sources, why aren't they explicitly mentioned? It is much stronger to just add the source with as much precision as possible. And you might want to consider using citation templates, because unlike using "eg", formatting citations properly does add some credibility to the argument. --Merzul 19:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Much of Wikipedia contains statements of the form "some (scientists/philosophers/writers) suggest". A reference "see P." would imply that P. has written "some Xs suggest" - a reference "see eg P." means "P. is one example" It is also the appropriate form when an idea is highly pervasive, and it would be inappropriate to suggest that it was in any sense original to P. NBeale 07:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I should have thanked you for adding material of high quality instead of your own opinions. I have a contrary POV, but I think the material you add is often sensible and sourced. Thank you for improving the quality of wikipedia. About this issue of "e.g.", I will not remove any more of them, but I'm just saying that I think the material you add would be more effective if sourced by simply "Author, Book, page". Finally, it is of course not a good thing that much of wikipedia contains statements like "some Xs suggest"! In my opinion saying "Richard Swinburne has argued..." is infinitely more persuasive than saying "Many philosophers argue ..." --Merzul 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plantinga's footnote...

If we let the symbols W and W* be Spain and France, and if our object x is the weather and the property P(x) is that x is rainy, then what he says is essentially if it rains in Spain, but is sunny in France, then even in France it is raining in Spain, while in Spain it isn't raining in France. It makes sense, but it's just an explanation of modal logic. I don't see how this section from Plantinga's book is demonstrative of his thinking, its just a sentence from the middle of it. If anybody has his book, would you consider picking something more self-contained, and maybe with fewer symbols and hyphens :) Thanks! --Merzul 03:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments for the existence of God

I am suprised to note that "physical manifestation" (i.e. physical proof of the existence of God) has not been put forth as an argument. The occurences during Makarasankranti at Sabarimala (Kerala, South India) have not yet been disproved by rationalists and God is believed to be present in the form of a bright intense light on the horizon. This occurs every year. Some believe it, some don't, but I think it should still be put forth in this article. Bhakthan 23:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references or Sources

For some reason user:UBeR tagged this on 1 Jan 07. There seem to me to be 27 refs and 17 additional sources: in addition most of the substantial arguments have articles of their own. Should we delete the tag? NBeale 07:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The page is 41 kilobytes long. 27 refs hardly covers an article half that size. Lest this article become riddle with [citation needed] tags, which I surely would do if the template is removed, I suggest it be kept. ~ UBeR 19:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd rather see [citation needed] tags added where they were needed than a blanket tag which isn't right and doesn't make it clear where the work is needed. What do other people think? NBeale 21:26, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Ultimate Boeing 747 Gambit (argument against)

This is the argument (against God) from improbability, which has not been documented. It could be merged with the line of though "Who designed the designer?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion#Why_there_almost_certainly_is_no_God http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/dawkins06/dawkins06_index.html

There was an article about this but it was deleted. The argument is a truly terrible argument though, which no competent philosopher finds remotely plausible.NBeale 07:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested principles for improving this article

Although there's a lot of good material in this article overall it is a bit of a mess. I suggest we consider the following principles for improving it:

  1. Arguments should only be mentioned if they are notable enough to have their own article.
  2. Such arguments should have a 1-sentence NPOV summary of the argument. All refutations, criticisms etc.. should be in the article about the argument.
  3. The rest of this article should be confined to statements that are supported by references or at least by references to other relevant Wikipedia articles.

What do people think? NBeale 08:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

  1. Whether an article exists for an argument is a factor of that argument's complexity as much as its notability. An article that is highly noteworthy, but also very simple and has minimal important information on it, would not need a distinct article, but could still be mentioned on this page. Articles should be mentioned only if they are notable enough period; adding a requirement for a distinct article serves no real purpose.
  2. 1 sentence? That's too short, at least for the more noteworthy arguments. 1 paragraph (including the noteworthy responses) would be more reasonable. And I don't see any reason to exclude refutations and criticisms, especially since some of those refutations constitute arguments in and of themselves—for example, the argument from poor design is nothing more than a counter-argument against the argument from design.
  3. Everything in this article should be confined to statements that are supported by references. Also, references to other Wikipedia articles are inadequate if that Wikipedia article doesn't cite a reliable source for its own claims. -Silence 09:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deductive arguments (against)

I think that section contains a logical error in the part stating that the atheists' argument about God's knowledge is fallacious. Plato defined knowledge as the intersection of the set truths and the set beliefs. If God knows that something is going to happen, obviously it belongs to the truth set, and, by the generally accepted definition of truth, it is bound to happen. Free will is defined as the ability to change the future, therefore allowing one to do anything physically possible, forming a set of possible future events. If the subset future events of the set truths intersects with the set future possible events, the intersection describes obviously the future. But, assuming that no contradictory events can take place, and that there is more than one possible event, according to free will, this means only one event is possible, therefore denying one of free will. Orthologist 17:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Witness argument

The Witness argument article, which is linked from this one, has been languishing in a state of uselessness for a long time, and never seems to have been a particularly worthwhile article. As best as I could ascertain, it hasn't had more than two sentences of valid content in the last 23 months. I think it's best to redirect it to this article. Any objections? Tim Shuba 02:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Could put this in the section on free will (deductive logic), after 'However, the argument suffers from a modal fallacy, where the necessity of God’s knowledge is incorrectly transferred to necessity of the action itself. Additionally, the argument is refuted by those who state that God is above time and exists in every moment. Furthermore, simple knowledge of a person's actions would not necessarily influence how one arrived upon those actions. While many theologians maintain that God is able to control a person's actions yet allows that person to decide upon those actions, some suggest that God has deliberately limited his omniscience and omnipotence to allow freewill' sinse it shows the problem of this. If, as this statement suggests, God could kniow of an action regardless of whether or not it takes place, he would know nothing, as he would not know whether it would take place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Larklight (talk • contribs) 20:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Argument from Parsimony

  • The argument from parsimony contends that since natural (non-supernatural) theories adequately explain the development of religion and belief in god[3], the actual existence of such supernatural agents is superfluous and may be dismissed unless otherwise proven to be required to explain the phenomenon. Thoughts? 18 Feb 2007, Keyrok.
    • That is true, but it doesn't really solve the problem. Religion doesn't require a real live god to exist, but that does neither prove that he/she/it/hamster does exist nor that he/she/it/monorail doesn't. At best it shows that the existence of religion doesn't prove a necessity for the existence of Dog, without making an absolute statement beyond that context. Unless someone tried to use the existence of religion as proof for the existence of Ramses, it's not really helpful to the argument. — Ashmodai (talk · contribs) 11:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
  • An atheist is an agnostic who uses Occam's razorTwslandlord 01:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)twslandlord

[edit] Merge from Mathematics and God

Please merge relevant content, if any, from Mathematics and God per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mathematics and God (third nomination). (If there is nothing to merge, just leave it as a redirect.) Thanks. —Quarl (talk) 2007-03-09 09:43Z

[edit] Argument from majority

# The Majority argument argues that the theism of people throughout most of recorded history and in many different places provides prima facie demonstration of God's existence.

It looks to be argumentum ad populum, not a valid logical argument Obscurans 06:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that the whole point of this article is to demonstrate that rules of logic have scarcely been applied to the question of deity. ˉˉanetode╦╩
Actually, they do. This article is just a poor example. ~ UBeR 18:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Successfully applied - that is, not breaching at least one sort of fallacy. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 20:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Satble refed version

Hi all: I'm sorry I can't see any merit in the most recent edits. Uber did a "minor edit" to "removed unrefed nonsense" which was in fact a point that had 2 refs and was not nonsese at all. There has also been a large insertion of WP:ESSAY material "But is that fair? (etc)" and references to non-notable websites. Could we try to justify additions rather than putting in lots of OR or removing refed material without disucssion please? NBeale 07:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

"See the SOED entry on Agnostic" and "see Kenny op cit," and proper references. They mean nothing to the reader. ~ UBeR 18:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pascals wager isn't an argument for the Existence of God...

Pascals wager (see edit here) isn't an argument for the Existence of God but on how to game the system in your favour. It is the lazy way to heaven and god-knowing-all will know just how sincere you really are. In the end it also misses the fact that there have been many gods documented over the years. If the other gods are as selfish as the Judeo-Christian one then you have quite a few hells to choose from....or if you are secular then you can't remember your birth so you won't remember your death. Ttiotsw 09:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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