Talk:Excise

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Contents 1 Disambiguation needed 2 Who is Mr. Edward F. McClennen? 3 This article needs to be reworked 4 Hawaii GET = VAT? 5 Huh?? - Capsule summary needed

[edit] Disambiguation needed

"Excise" is a very general term: Aside from having different legal implications, the situation concerning excise varies greatly from country to country. This article only displays the situation in the United States of America. I propose moving the U.S. content to Excise in the United States and using this article to flesh out the meaning of excise in general. The different situation in countries like the US, the UK or Germany could be described shortly, with a link referring to the respective article. Text from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and the former agency Her Majesty's Customs and Excise, for instance, could be incorporated for the UK section. Something Wicked 11:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. A disambiguation page like that which exists for property taxes would be appropriate here. I don't have the time currently to devote to it but if this issue is still around in a few months I'll look into it. Nathanpatterson 12:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• I also strongly agree, unfortunately I do not have the knowledge to work the article myself and accessed the definition in an attempt to find out exactly what the word means. I was dissapointed to find only a definition related specifically to the USA. This was not helpful to me sitting in Mozambique trying to write intelligently to lawyers in South Africa. (Dave5010 10:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Who is Mr. Edward F. McClennen?

If he isn't notable, we should shorten his statement to encyclopedic density. — Sebastian (talk) 05:31, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

The Article apperas to be morally opposed to Excise Taxes rather than taking an NPOV. 12/09/05.

[edit] This article needs to be reworked

This article needs to be cleaned up. The term "excise" (like many legal terms) has more than one technical legal meaning. In the United States, it has at least one constitutional law meaning and at least one statutory law meaning. The article seems to be confusing the meanings and using terms in an imprecise way that can cause further confusion.

One way to understand excises in the CONSTITUTIONAL sense is to think of taxes as consisting of two kinds: "state of being" taxes and "event" taxes (these are not technical legal terms, just pedagogical terms).

An example of a "state of being" tax is an ad valorem property tax. It's imposed on the property or the person who owns that property at a certain moment on, say, January 1 of each year based on the state of title at that given moment. It is the "state of title" that is being taxed. If you owned the property at that moment, the tax is imposed on you. And next year, on January 1st, the tax is imposed again in the same way on the same property and person, EVEN THOUGH THERE'S BEEN NO "CHANGE" (NO INTERVENING "EVENT"). The amount of the tax may change from year to year, based on the change in the value of the property or a change in the tax rate or both, but those are separate issues. What is being taxed is the STATE OF TITLE, and state of title is not an "event" but is instead a "state of being."

By contrast, an event tax is a tax on, well, an event. A realization of income (such as a receipt of wages) is an event. A sale is an event. A transfer of title by gift is an event. A transfer of title because of death is an event. Income taxes, sales taxes, transfer taxes -- they are are all event taxes. When you receive money as income, it is not the ownership or state of title of the money itself that is taxed, but rather the fact that an income event has occurred. Sure, you pay the tax with money, but that's a separate issue. If you take the money and put it under your bed for ten years, the INCOME tax is not re-imposed on that money every year you have it under your bed. Only one thing is taxed by the income tax -- the original "income event."

For purposes of the U.S. constitution, an excise is essentially any indirect tax, or "event" tax (with one class of exceptions -- namely income taxes on income from property, which arguably are not treated as excises). An excise means any tax 'other than (1) a tax on property by reason of its ownership; (2) a capitation, or head tax; (3) an income tax on income from property. In the constitutional sense, an excise includes gift taxes, estate taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, miscellaneous excise taxes, and income taxes on any income other than income from property, etc., etc. -- in short, any tax that is not a direct tax.

For U.S. statutory purposes, the term "excise" generally includes (but may not be limited to) a tax that is "called" an "excise" in the language of the statute itself.

The article needs to be reworked to make clearer exactly what kind of tax is being talked about in each example.

For example, the article states: "An excise is an indirect tax or duty levied on items within a country. It is an ad valorem tax on specific goods or a fixed rate tax on specific goods [ . . . ]". Those statements in the form presented are probably incorrect. The excise tax may be imposed on the SALE of items or specific goods (an event). The excise tax may be imposed on the IMPORTATION of items or specific goods (an event).

Similarly, the reference to taxes "on fuel, alcohol and tobacco" probably really should be re-worded to say a tax on a SALE of fuel, alcohol and tobacco (or whatever event is being taxed). When you say a tax ON FUEL, ALCOHOL AND TOBACCO, that sounds like a property tax based on the state of title -- and that would not be an "excise" tax in the constitutional sense.

Another line in the article does refer to a "sale," however. So the article just needs to be cleaned up. If you're talking about a tax on an event, say what the event is. By contrast, if you're talking about a "state of being" tax such as a property tax on real estate, it's more correct to say "a tax on" the property. Famspear 18:58, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaii GET = VAT?

The description for the Hawaii GET sounds like the description of a VAT. Can someone modify the article to clarify this? --Scott McNay 03:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?? - Capsule summary needed

A lay reader (like me) would have to read several pages of dreck to answer the basic question - "What's an excise tax?" Two pithy sentences please. H Bruthzoo 18:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear readers: I added a summary near the top. I hope it helps. This is how the term is used in U.S. law.

Tax lawyers, CPAs, etc., in the United States generally don't spend a lot of time pondering the term "excise," because there is relatively little actual need to figure out whether a given tax is an excise or not, either from a constitutional law standpoint or a statutory law standpoint. Yours, Famspear 19:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)