Talk:European American

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Contents 1 References 2 problems 3 Caucasian-American 4 Mediterranean/Middle Eastern Ethnicity 5 Expansion 6 Sense of adjective 7 Christina Aguilera 8 Are Italians Hispanic? 9 I can`t find Serbian-American on the list 10 Who uses this term at all? 11 Euro-American redirects here 12 Turks 13 Greeks 14 Map is absolutetely arbitrary 15 Question about accuracy of numbers 16 Template 17 Please remove Paris Hilton 18 Very Odd & Ill-established Comments Above

[edit] References

This needs references. and used by who? When? Where? All we have is the why... --Sketchee 02:10, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

Use of this term seems to ignore historical treatment of some European immigrants to the United States, such as Irish Roman Catholics until recently and Germans during the First World War. Acjelen 01:22, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've only ever encountered this term in connection with white supremacists like David Duke, who describes himself as a "European-American civil rights lawyer". --Angr 09:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The derisive comments on this page only underscore the need for European-Americans to unite in much the same way ALL other ethnic groups but we have. We have no voice, no leader representing our issues. What conceivable relevance has the treatment of Irish Catholics -- a canard also used in the immigration debate to justify mass (often illegal) immigration -- to the discussion of a satisfactory nomenclature for our people? ANY discussion of white identify results in the speaker's being tarred as a "white supremacist."

I had to look up canard in my dictionary. I'll remember to use it often as a euphemism. The danger with the term "European American" is that it can only accurately describe some group of Americans during the 20th century (and probably the later part of it). Prior to that, Americans the majority of whose ancestors lived in Europe were not part of a single "ethnic group". History must deal with the individual nationalities coming to this country from Europe. Indeed, Europe as we now consider it is a relatively recent idea. Happily, those German-Americans, Polish-Americans, Hungarian-Americans, Ashkenazi-Americans, Roma-Americans, English-Americans, Scots-Irish-Americans, etc. let go of their Old World strife and have intermarried to such an extent that we now have European-Americans.

I find the term much more satisfactory, personally, than "non-hispanic white," as I've been asked to identify myself on countless government forms.

This article is somewhat inaccurate. It says that the "European-Americans" are also called white or caucasian. It sort of gives people the idea idea that white or caucasian only means European, when "white" or "caucasian" also refers to white-Americans who are of non-European background such as Turks, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese, Armenians, etc.--Gramaic 09:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Turks are European and Europe in the sense of the Roman Empire and Macedonian Empire (no relation to the country by the same name or its people) due to cultural exchange and interaction, is also the Middle East and North Africa. Those regions today are still remotely European.

Why Turkey is a European country

• The Anatolian peninsula has been historically part of Greece until the Turks invaded and took over.

• Turks share cultural ties with Greeks and Albanians.

• The little insignificant break between Istanbul and the Anatolian peninsula doesn’t separate the Anatolian peninsula from Europe.

How Turkey can become an E.U. member

• Turkey and Greece have to allow Roma to become the major ethnic group in Cyprus.

1) Reason: because they are the most hated ethnic group in Europe (according to the BBC) and they have a population there in Cyprus already.

• Relinquishing Cyprus to a neutral ethnic group will end tensions between the two countries over the island and allow both sides to recognize Cyprus as an independent nation.

~ Steven Colosi

Turks Why exactly do we have Turks here as Europeans? Not many "whites" "Europeans", ext include Turks as Euro americans.

[edit] problems

I have several problems with this page:

1. It gives the impression that this is a common term in the United States, at least, which is most certainly is not. I have lived in the U.S. since birth (31 years) and have rarely heard this term used in general conversation or even in official designation. The main times I remember hearing it used were ironically either used by white racists, such as Duke, or were used in satire, apparently in an attempt to make fun of or denigrate other "hyphenated American" terms. Regardless of whether this intended satire has any legitimacy or truth to it (I personally think it does), the usage of the term in actual life in the U.S. is misrepresented here.

I think Americans with European ancestry have reached a level of integration which brings about a desire for their own identity and an easier way to talk about the history of European immigration to the United States and the prior colonies (as well as the unique experiences of these immigrants and their descendants). Americans without ancestry from the British Isles may also wish to use the term to bring attention to the fact that in the past the study of American history hardly included them anymore than Americans with African, Asian, or Mexican heritage. Since the WASPy nature of "white" America is now nostalgia and provencialism, we may need another term to discuss this segment of the population. -Acjelen 9 July 2005 04:57 (UTC)

Since when does "a level of integration bring about a desire for...identity and an easier way to talk about the history of...immigration"? I'm "European American", and I don't find any desire in myself to "find a shared identity" with anyone and everyone descended from non-British European immigrants. Is it now impossible for someone to feel that they're truly American without becoming hyphenated?? How is it possible that this group (or any such group) is deserving of identity *now*, when they are *more* assimilated into American culture, than when they were previously?? It just seems to me that all this hyphenation and "group identity" happening in this country is a result of current political and social trends, and does little to actually understand history. Believe it or not, it's quite possible to learn about African, Asian, and Mexican immigration history to the United States without having to conjure up "identities" like "African American", "Asian American", or "Mexican American". In fact, these "identities" actually get in the way, as they arbitrarily bunch together a group of people who have *individual* stories and histories regarding their ancestry and immigration.

But this is besides the point. My main point is that this term is not used much in the United States, except by white supremacists, and to most Americans, it conjures up pictures of David Duke and white racists more than anything else. I may not agree with terms like "African American", either, but at least these are widespread and adopted terms, which this one is not. The article does not reflect this. Revolver 9 July 2005 10:20 (UTC)

2. "Europe" is itself a relatively recent social construction in terms of identity, so I see little justification for the use of the term, personally. But then again, I have the same opinion and criticisms about the term African American, and this term seems to have caught on (unfortunately, IMHO). Europe itself is (like Africa and black Americans of African descent) a place of extremely varied cultures, ethniticies, histories, and identities.

And, of course, recent immigrants to America from Europe may wish to use the term to distinguish themselves. -Acjelen 9 July 2005 04:57 (UTC)

Distinguish themselves *from what*?? We're all distinguished from each other at some level. This is just a politically motivated attempt to forge divisive group identities under the guise of historical scholarship. Revolver 9 July 2005 10:20 (UTC)

3. The picture seems misleading. Where do the data come from? The info with it gives the impression that it refers to "whites", whereas the article says this is different from "European American". This should be cleared up and clarified.

4. The link at the bottom (as of 8 July) is to a website that appears racist and only confirms my first point. One of the main articles listed at this site questions whether "Zionists and Jews" are running the country into ruin. Revolver 9 July 2005 00:31 (UTC)

[edit] Caucasian-American

As all of you are aware, Caucasian-American redirects to this article. Caucasian-American should be a seperate article, because the term "Caucasian" also refers to non-Europeans such as Middle Easterners and North Africans. It's a big mistake having Caucasian-Americans redirect to this article! --Gramaic | Talk 08:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Is it really used that way? I've seen Caucasian and Caucasian-American used to refer to European-descended individuals, but I don't know any people of Middle-Eastern descent who wouldn't rather be called Middle-Eastern-descended.--Nectarflowed ^T 10:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the term goes beyond European. In fact, take a look at Race (U.S. Census) which is a copy of the real U.S. Census definition, and the definition of White/Caucasian would be; a person that descends from the original people of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. You could also look up the word Caucasian in the dictionary and the defintion would be; person who is the original inhabitant of Europe, Southwest Asia, North Africa, and Indian Sub-Continent.

<quote>I don't know any people of Middle-Eastern descent who wouldn't rather be called Middle-Eastern-descended.<quote/> Actually most (if not all) Middle Easterners in the United States refer to themselves as White or Caucasian-American. Yes there are some Middle Eastern people who would rather not refer to themselves as Caucasian, but as just Middle Eastern. In fact, I've seen some Italians who are of course White and European-Americans refer to themselves and referring to all Italians as non-White, but that doesn't mean that Italians are actually non-White. So that's why Caucasian-American should be a seperate article, rather than be a redirect to this article. --Gramaic | Talk 20:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the definition; I was speaking regarding a discrepancy between official usage and popular usage.--Nectarflowed ^T 21:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think Caucasian is used in the United States as a euphemism to refer to Whites and give them a more anthropological-sounding label. It is probably often used to refer to Americans who look white but don't "qualify" (so to speak) as being of European descent. Like so-called European Americans, Americans of west Asian and north African descent have only recently (if at all) thought of themselves as a single, coherent group requiring a handy label. It seems a disturbing trend in the United States that its people feel compelled to join (or restructure) one of its outdated and inadequately limited "racial" groupings. -Acjelen 20:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mediterranean/Middle Eastern Ethnicity

(Revision of e-mailed response on http://www.portuguesefoundation.org/hispanic.htm)

I have been reading all of these responses since over the summer. My father is Italian and Albanian while my mother is German, Czech, Dutch and Irish; therefore, I am a mutt and proud of it. As an Italian-American, I have to say how important it is that we keep our Catholic faith, our ancestors when coming to this country, endured many hardships, and inequality. Jesus was a Jew and Jews are Middle Eastern. So surely, he was olive. You could argue about who is white and who isn’t for whatever reason, but it doesn't matter. On the Arab American Institute's site I found out that at one time Caucasian did live up to the furthest extent of its definition (including people from the Indian subcontinent). So at one time, South Asians were considered "white".

I read Mr. Silva's e-mail and found it strange that on https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html they don't have any record of Mexicans' Portuguese ancestry. However, if you were to go to Argentina you can sense the Spanish and Italian influence in its people, food and culture. To find more information concerning Hispanic see http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Hispanic and concerning the Latin Grammys: I strongly believe that they should change its name to the Iberian Grammys since the awards are only for music of Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking communities from around the world.

I am an American first and an Italian-American second as I don't have an Italian flag in my room nor do I celebrate Columbus Day even though I have nothing against it. I consider myself an American first because everyone here is American and so it unites all of us, but if racial status of Middle Eastern- and North African-Americans becomes a big issue, I would support adding 'Mediterranean/Middle Eastern' as a separate category on the application form because I don't see them as any less white than other "White Americans". Mr. Martellari’s idea of a ‘cultures of Mediterranean origins’ category got me thinking of European countries that have the most Greco-Roman influence in their food and culture and European countries with a lot of Middle Eastern influence in their culture. Thus, I invented the ‘Mediterranean/Middle Eastern’ category as a possible seperate category. The system is so screwed up that everyone from countries east of the Middle East is considered Asian despite the fact that people from India are Caucasians and not at all relative to people from China. It is stupid that our government views people of a darker complexion as non-Caucasian and we have all of these Nordic Nazi types claiming to be the Aryan race. I am sorry, but Aryan people are nothing close to Hitler's description. Persians and people from the Indian subcontinent are the true Aryans, which doesn't even have a racial reference in their usage.

Our government just doesn't have a clue in the world how to identify people; and, therefore, we have people of an “unknown race” category because of ignorance. I don't understand why Hispanic shouldn't refer to Portuguese culture instead of just pertaining to Spanish culture, especially when their cultures are more related to each other than our government gives them credit for. The definition is no doubt ignorant of that fact. After all, their countries occupy the same peninsula, which was known as Hispania, and is known today as the Iberian Peninsula.

The Latins were the ancestors of the Romans whom settled in the region of Italy known as Latium (which is now Lazio, in Italian). However, the term 'Latin' is now used solely in relationship to Latin America and its people, music, and culture. If a Latin was a native or resident of ancient Latium, then it's not a native or inhabitant of Latin America. I believe that Portuguese, Spaniards, and Italians are Latin because their languages, sports, food, cultures, and religion descend from the ancient Roman civilization and our government doesn't consider Haiti to be part of Latin America as its people aren't considered Latinos even though they speak French. Thus, it is a common tendency to view the French as Latin to a lesser extent since they aren't that Mediterranean culturally and formed colonies predominately in North America instead of South America and in America only the countries south of the boarder are put under consideration of being part of Latin America. Latin America is where southern European Romance languages are spoken with Italian being spoken by a minority in some parts of Argentina, Uruguay, and Venezuela.

Sociopolically speaking, Latino and Hispanic are synonyms. However, Spaniards, Portuguese, and Italians are not Latinos; they are Latins. We (Italian-Americans, Portuguese-Americans, and Spanish-Americans) are Latin; and, therefore, we can choose whether or not we are part of the White Community or Hispanic Community. The French came up with the concept of "Latin America", but since Italians, Spaniards, and Portuguese were the first to explore and find what we call Latin America, I believe Portuguese-Americans, Spanish-Americans, and Italian-Americans should be called "Latin Americans" and Latinos should not shorten the term Latin American because someone of Latin descent should not be confused with someone of Latin American descent.

Just interspersing a specific rejoinder here: to a certain degree, the French are also considered "Latin", or were, in the same British way of thinking that held "Fog closes Channel, Continent cut off"; and I remember references in various old flicks and social conversation about this or that French person being a "Latin lover" (and therefore "to be watched out for" as also intrigued by...). And there's a good case to be made, politically/culturally speaking, that Quebec (and therefore also Canada) is a "Latin American country", though of course that's not the usual usage; the reference is partly ironic because of the flamboyant and often corrupt behaviour of Quebec politicians; other Canadian politicians are just as corrupt (in BC even moreso) just not as flamboyant (except in BC and Newfoundland, maybe).Skookum1 15:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I also have found out by curiosity that Ralph Nader is an Arab-American of Lebanese descent. Believe it or not Doug Flutie is also an Arab-American and they are "white" according to the government. This is why I believe a 'Mediterranean/Middle Eastern' category should be added to the application: Latins, Greeks, Albanians, Turks, and Maltese (Mediterraneans) have a distinctive culture like Middle Easterners and North Africans and are stereotypically viewed as being olive complexioned and dark haired. In addition, Italian-Americans and Arab-Americans are equally concerned about how they are portrayed in the media as they and people mistaken for them have been victims of hate crimes during one time or another. If I were a full-blooded Latin, I would have more of an olive complexion, even though it isn't true for everyone who hails from the Mediterranean, North Africa, and the Middle East. ~ Steven Colosi

 Usage Note: Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for “Spain,” has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latino which in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latinoamericano refers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures without garbling the meaning. In practice, however, this distinction is of little significance when referring to residents of the United States, most of whom are of Latin American origin and can theoretically be called by either word. ·A more important distinction concerns the sociopolitical rift that has opened between Latino and Hispanic in American usage. For a certain segment of the Spanish-speaking population, Latino is a term of ethnic pride and Hispanic a label that borders on the offensive. According to this view, Hispanic lacks the authenticity and cultural resonance of Latino, with its Spanish sound and its ability to show the feminine form Latina when used of women. Furthermore, Hispanic the term used by the U.S. Census Bureau and other government agencies is said to bear the stamp of an Anglo establishment far removed from the concerns of the Spanish-speaking community. While these views are strongly held by some, they are by no means universal, and the division in usage seems as related to geography as it is to politics, with Latino widely preferred in California and Hispanic the more usual term in Florida and Texas. Even in these regions, however, usage is often mixed, and it is not uncommon to find both terms used by the same writer or speaker. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Hispanic

As individuals and members of the global society, we must redefine our conclusion that we are different from another individual based on "ethnicity" which is defined by designated superficial characteristics such as skin color or eye shape. European-American, African-American Middle-Easterner, Asian, African are all terms from an extreme position on humans used to divide society into groups which deviates ATTENTION from the route of the issue--SURPRESSION. All terms regarding defined ethnicities, the European-American to the African-European to the Hispanic-Pacific Islander, are controlled in terms of superficial (topical) differences and with the use of those terms Contempt and fear is bred.

The definition for any of the terms is: group created by men which refers to the physical traits of an individual while taking into account their physical similarities and all places of birth with regards to other individuals in order to divide individuals of the global community

[edit] Expansion

This page needs to be expanded. European Americans are the most important racial group in the country, yet the "African-American" page is several times longer.--80.186.137.142 21:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, that`s an important point: I don't think that "European Americans" are a racial group (there are no human races in the biological sense, though people of african descent of course look different from other people with asian or european roots). It refers to Americans who originally came from the culturally-geographical defined region of Europe. Of course there are differences between the ethnicities of europe, who are devided by culture, languages etc., but there are also a lot of similarities. So I would say it is a term which includes all the different ethnical groups (or ancestry groups) like Irish-American, German-American etc. And the differences of these groups in America are slighter than the differences between the ethnicities in europe. (Sorry for my bad English).

Matthias

One reason the African American article is longer is because African Americans have existed as a group much longer than European Americans (the 17th century versus 1940s) Moreover, European Americans did not emerge until the general lessening of segregation in the United States along social, economic, and ethnic lines. In fact, that very flattening of American society made such a group as "European Americans" possible. But an unsegregated society makes it difficult for European Americans to create unique cultural, social, or political contributions. For example, more European Americans died in the Vietnam conflict, but they did so in an integrated military. European Americans are important in the history of popular music, especially rock-n-roll, but that would have hardly existed as it does today without the contributions of African Americans. The stereotypical hippy movement of the 1960s is European American. Generally one could consider the current field in Nashville-sound country music, Evangelical Christianity, and the rise of the contemporary Republican Party as contributions of the European Americans. White flight, of course, and suburban sprawl will be one of the lasting contributions of this group. -Acjelen 22:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you came upon a 1940s date for the start of the "existence" of European Americans, but I do not agree with that. Americans of different European ethnicities have been intermarrying from the start of colonization. Yes, there were more "pureblood" whites before the 20th century, but that had more to do with the fact that many of these people had recently passed through Ellis Island and had not had much of an opportunity to intermarry outside their ethnic group. In the South, where immigration rates were lower, whites had largely discarded their old ethnic labels well before the Civil War; they were less "Scottish," "English," "German" et al. and more "Southern." 24.192.17.34 07:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sense of adjective

It should be pointed out that the adjective in European American is used in the narrow biological sense. The U.S. Secretary of State, for example, wears European fashions, speaks a European language, and occasionally gives recitals of European music on a European instrument. In this broader sense, nearly everyone in the United States is a European American. -Acjelen 04:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christina Aguilera

The article makes a point to distinguish between latin american and euro american, that while some people from both might be considered white in the census their ethnicities are different. So my question is, why does the article include Christina Aguilera as european-american when she is latin-american. Her father is from Ecuador. So, any comments? Cjrs 79 03:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The article does not make a point to distinguish between Latin Americans and Euro Americans. It just talks about Euro Americans. Latin American does not negate her being classified as a European American, because she was born in the USA and has origins in the original peoples of Europe.--Dark Tichondrias 01:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are Italians Hispanic?

If some dictionaries include Portuguese people, language, and culture under the term 'Hispanic', then since Italy was part of the Spanish Empire, Italians are Hispanic, too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.76.144.224 (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] I can`t find Serbian-American on the list

Why?

Because you didn't add it. This is wikipedia. Please sign your comments with four tildes. JesseRafe 04:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who uses this term at all?

The term European American is more specific than White American in that these terms in their official usage...

and

It should, however also be mentioned that the term "European Americans" is sometimes used as a synonym for White Americans in certain government publications.

What official usage? I've never seen either European American or White American in any government publication. Care to provide some examples?

The term was coined in response to the increasing racial diversity of the United States, as well as in recognition of this demographic diversity moving more into the mainstream of the society in the latter half of the 20th century.

Is there a reference as to how it was coined? Nathanm mn 13:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow Wikipedia is just glorified grafiti and this article is a perfect example of what i mean... this term is practically non-existent in common or academic usage --62.245.143.34 13:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You are fos. thanks, go away.

[edit] Euro-American redirects here

Euro-American redirects here, which I've got an issue with because of the USAcentricity of this page; the reason it's USA-centric is because of, well, the ethno-biased p.c.-ism of rehashed histories of Canada and other New World countries where "Euro-American" or "European" is substituted for "white", "Scottish", "Irish", "French" and so on; in Canada's case it's used by politically-conscious/pretentious historical writers to get around the distinctions between American-origin whites and British-origin whites, compounded by (especially in frontier areas) actual European-origin whites who are not American or British. Confusing? Yeah, I know, and a pain in the ass too. Obviously this page is fine as it is - "European American" - though it's not a common-usage term; I just want to submit that some kind of disambig seems necessary on "Euro-American" because of that term's usage in other contexts.Skookum1 17:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turks

Turks are not European, they are in geographic Asia and are a people from Mongolia.

• Definitely, what is this ridiculous map on this page showing Southern Europe to include Turkey? 97% of the land is not in the continent of Europe and the people (as mentioned above) are originally from Mongolia. They colonized what is now Turkey and drove out the original people.

Aha.. If some people have got issues with Turks, that them somewhere else please. Such statement bordering on racism is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Have a look if you would like to learn the origins of Turks and those of the seperate Mongolians. Keep it down, and please do not post borderline-racist notes that can only contribute to the creation of a hostile working environnement.Baristarim 03:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this brings into to question the whole racist nature of categorizing peoples like this to begin with. I mean how is this guys comment any more racist than the entire concept of the page to begin with. He is mearly arguing a point, even if his facts are incorrect(and the whole thing is rather subjective really). Anyway, you sure are quick to through out the term racist and start preaching. You sound like you have been to one to many tolerance training classes or something. Like the comment about "hostile work environment", I don't know about you but I'm not getting paid to be here. Also, what's so bad about the mongols that that's an insult? Whatever... In conclusion, please be less of a moron in future posts. - Arch NME 00:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • haha, how much I love Greeks? They are funny. BTW we increased 40% in last ten years. That is scary, man. That is the highest increase from Europe.

[edit] Greeks

Greeks are not European. They came from ethopia and genetic testing has shown them to be related to ethopians. Cyprus is in the middle east next to freaking lebanon. They invaded what is now greece and stole the land from the macedonians. Now they shamelessly to pass macedonian history as greek. Alexander is macedonian and always will be!

First of all, Greeks are European, Mediterranean, and originally shared cultural and historical ties with people of the lands Alexander the Great conquered, until Europe went into chaos thanks to the Roman's lead poisoned water and the yet uncivilized invaders of Europe known at that time as barbarians to the civilized ancient world. Now, we have this picture of Jesus as a light skinned -- light complexioned caucasian, dispite no one of true Mediterranean origin could pass as such. The lead poisoned water coming from the Roman's lead pipes turned the Roman Empire into a self-destructive and defenseless empire. Slavs such as yourself are delusional from all the brainwashing that's been done to you. Do us all a favor and don't try to rewrite history. 68.248.229.10 17:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)Muhammad al-Assad

Have you ever seen a Greek, have you ever seen an ethiopian? Have you ever seen a statue of an ancient Greek?

Yeah problem solved

All humans came from the region of Ethiopia and neighboring areas (if you believe in Evolution, that is). So? :) Baristarim 01:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map is absolutetely arbitrary

British Isles not Western Europe? etc. I am deleteing this arbitrary map. Veritas et Severitas 02:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about accuracy of numbers

How did america lose 40 million euro-americans in 10 years? Something is wrong with this page.

Total 210,181,975 84.2% 171,801,940 60.7% decreased 18.3%

Thanks for signing your post, but back to the question, yes it is possible to lose 40 million euro americans because of the way in which people claim themselves on the US census, the people arent "lost" they just didnt declare themselves the same way on both census's.--Joebengo 03:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Joebengo as I am one of those missing Americans, I haven't physically gone anywhere. I just decided the idea of race in general was stupid as it leads to separatism and tons of other problems. So I just don't check the boxes on anything anymore. I would encourage everyone else to do the same. I'm kinda committed to the idea that if everyone just forgets the whole concept of race America would be a better place. It's not that I want to forget who I am it's that I just don't think I need to contribute to racial ideology every time I fill out some government paperwork. As to the argument that European-American is a geographic origin and not a race, it's complete nonsense and ever sane person knows it. Same old shit, new politically correct name. It's nice to see that maybe 40 million other Americans agree with me. I move this whole page be deleted for the good of humanity. - Arch NME 01:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template

Out of all the European Americans to have ever graced our country, the best pictures we can come up with are Clinton, Reagan, and Marilyn Monroe? Is there anyway we can come up with a more representative sample? --Caponer 01:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If you can then do it, the best idea would be to find some better representations and propose them on the talk page so that people may express how they feel about each picture you may propose.--Joebengo 03:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please remove Paris Hilton

Paris Hilton is not an important representitive of European Americans. We already have a picture of a blond female celebrity (Marilyn Monroe), who is a much more significant figure in American culture. Paris Hilton may be famous now but her fame will leave no lasting impact on our culture. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.27.119.90 (talk) 10:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Very Odd & Ill-established Comments Above

I find it very odd, the comments above regarding a "Middle Eastern/Mediterranean" category and the question "Are Italians Hispanic? First of all, to just clear things up, Italians are not Hispanic just because they were owned by Spain at one time. Should we consider Italians, as Germans, Austrians or French because they all owned a piece of Italy? Should we consider the Dutch and Belgians as Hispanic because Spain owned them as well?

This guy above who appreciates his Italian and Albanian roots more than his northeastern European ancestry needs to get real. He justifies having a Mediterranean/Middle Eastern category on the basis of his belief that southern Europe shares a similar history and culture with North Africa and the Middle East, which is obsurd. Italy in itself has a vast and individual history which is shared for only 200 year with North Africa after Arabs briefly ruled Sicily before they were ousted. How does southern Europe an area with a Latin, Slavic and Greek culture, have a lot of ties with an Islamic Arab culture?

He justifies a southern Europeans darker complexion which has been overplayed by Anglo-Saxons, yet he bashes the Anglo-Saxons for excluding South Asians as Caucasians. Yes, many southern Europeans have tanned complexions, but many have fair complexions. Take a look at Saudi's and an Algerian. Algerians have lighter complexions, sometimes similar to that of a Europeans because of genetic influences. North African Arabs are not full Arab. They are mixed with Roman, Vandal, Berber, Greek, French and Arab, the Berber being the strongest, whereas the Saudis and Yemenis (the real Arabs) are much darker in complexion because they are mostly full blooded Arab with some sub-saharan admixture.

I compell him to go Italy, and see that Italy is a lot more closer to Europeans in culture simply because they are European. I also compell him to embrace all aspects of his nationality, because really, he has no foundation in his claim except him overplayed skin tones which have been proven, has no bearing on race whatsoever!!!! - Galati

Thank you, Galati. What I should have said instead of "in terms of culture, music, and history," I should have said "namely, struggling against negative stereotypes and racism popularized and projected by pop culture and the news media" instead because it is true. - Colosi

There is no racism against Italian people, first of all considering that Italians are not there own race, just an ethnicity in the Caucasian Race, just bias that is diminishing considering that the Toronto Sun reported that almost 90 percent of Canadians viewed the Italian community prositively. A lot of the stereotypes of Italians have also been supplemented by Italians themselves. For example, The Sopranos. I stopped watching it. They ridiculously harp on stereotypes of themselves that have fallen out of place many years ago. For example, a lot of my school mates did not even know what "wop" meant or who it applied to.

What does it mean to be Italian these days anyway. A lot of the people my workplace are mixed with Italian and Scottish, Italian and German, Italian and French, and they are proud of being half Italian and half whatever. If we are going to relate Italians to people who are "struggling against negative stereotypes and racism popularized and projected by pop culture and the news media" we might as well include the Chinese check box, the South Asian check box, Afro-American check box. Even fellow-Caucasians are portrayed negatively in the media as racist and "trash" and we know that is not always the case. Just because Italians may be SOMETIMES or RARELY viewed negatively by the media, it does not mean we have to rally for their own tick box on a census...that is ridiculous. We might as well get a tick box for the Scottish and Irish for being cheapsgates and drunks!!!

And please dont harp on the stereotype of Italians being "olive complexioned and dark hair", which is not necessarily true. This just happens to be another stereotype over-exemplified by the media, that you try to use to further your cause. Italians are everything European and they should be proud of it!!! - Galati your biggest mutt (Italian, Jamaican, Native Indian, and British Isles origin)

Remember the category is "Mediterranean/Middle Eastern" and thus it is like the Asian/Pacific Islander category and others with two separate groups. It is not just about Italians like you seem to believe. It is about my concerns of the stereotype of Arabs being non-white and how I feel as an Italian-American on that issue. Arab-Americans and Italian-Americans can relate to each other in this country based on how they've been treated by paranoid anti-immigrant groups and how the FBI has investigated them and organizations responsible for their negative stereotypes. I believe that Italians shouldn't be viewed any differently than Spaniards and Portuguese and that "Latin" "America" should be called "Hispanic America" since Spaniards, Portuguese, and Italians are Latin, but not Hispanic and thus Italian-Americans, Portuguese-Americans and Spanish-Americans should be called "Latin-Americans". - Colosi I found an article that may intrest you: Italian-American Civil Rights League

Ok, the article is nothing new to me. What you have to realise is that Italians are not viewed negatively anymore. Come on, if you know your American history even the Irish were discriminated for their gangs and for being Roman Catholic by many anti-immigrant groups, just like the Italians, but as time passes, things change. There is no where near as much discimination against Italians as their was 30 years ago. The words "dago", and "guinea" have fallen out of place and is hardly used, just like many discriminatory attitudes were displayed against the Irish. Shall we also include the Eastern Europeans, who were called "Hun" or "Hunyak" in the 1950's by the Americans. For example, in Canada, where I am from, as recent as the 1960's, the word "dago" and "wop" was used, and still people today have no idea what they mean anymore! You state that Italian and Arab Americans can relate to each other in this, but so can any other European who was not of British origin, so your conclusion for a box is so unreasonable.

Who cares if Latin America is called the way it is. If you call it Hispanic America, you would be calling it a Roman name, the Romans gave to the Iberian peninsula when they were colonising it, so either way, both names dont work. Hispanic is not a race, it is a culture, and traditional lifestyle, a lifestyle that is shared with Spain and Latin America. We call it Latin America not on the basis of race (there is no such race), but of culture, and language. The Latin culture in Europe does not only include the Italians, Portuguese and Spaniards...it includes the French, the Walloons of Belgium, Andorrans, and others. In fact, geneologists exclaim that Italians are closely related to the French. The Mediterranean/Middle Eastern category would also blur dinstinctions of ethnic varieties in southern Europe, and North Africans and the Middle East. It is so vague. There are Slavic, south Slavic, Greek, and Latin peoples all included in the southern European peninsulas, cultures that are vastly different from the North African/Middle Eastern Islamic society. in fact, they are clashing in Italy, and Spain right now as riots have rocked these nations due to culture and ethnic clashes. Read this: http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=275539&articleId=105377&func=5&channel=Tu+Gente

As I said, the definition of Italian is changing. Almost half of the Italian-American population and half of the Italo-Canadian population has mixed with other European ancestries, much like yourself Mr. Colosi, and they embrace all their ethnicities, like I do. The definitions of single response Europeans as we used to know it when they first came is blurring. There is only a few European-American or European Canadian in terms of population with just one single ethnicity. Just look here: http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/ETO/Table1.cfm?Lang=E&T=501&GV=1&GID=0

I know that this more than just the Italian people, but you are limiting it to the Mediterranean region of Europe, but all of Europe outside of Britain has been stereotyped. Another fact, Arabs only make up 0.6% of the American population...Wow! (note sarcasm) [1]. All non-British Europeans have been viewed negatively by Anglo-Saxon media, but thankfully it is dying out. In Canada, there are seperate categories for Europeans and Arabs. The definition of European in Canada, is "those who descend from the original peoples of Europe", much like the Italian people are are mostly of ancient Italic origin, indigenous to Europe. If anything, the Italian-Civil Rights League should take the Sopranos and other Mafia shows off the television screens in order to tackle the stereotypes against the Italian people due to their religion, supposed "mafian connections", and the over-exemplified Anglo-Saxon produced stereotype of all Italians having dark features. - Galati

One thing that separates us Americans from Canadians is the fact that we do not even have a European only category on Census application forms. What we have is just simply denoted Caucasian American/White and the category includes Europeans with North Africans, and Middle Easterners and I do not want that to change like [2] does; ignorantly giving Arab-Americans their own category. I do not support the term European-American as it is a term used by white supremacists like David Duke and does nothing but divide the White Community.

I consider the French no more Latin than I consider Icelandic people Scandinavian. However, I consider a French Cyproit more Latin than a French national and accept their Latiness equal to a Portuguese's, Spaniard's, and Italian's. A Latin to me someone of a western Mediterranean background even though it is strict and limited. All people and cultures are beautiful. I'd love to go to Portugal, Spain, and Italy and get Albanians and Turks to help Italy and Spain's problems with Muslims. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition must be excepted by all Europeans so that they can transcend all barriers and keep the Norman Lowells in Europe out of touch with other Europeans.

Building unity is essential in restoring peace. Love each other as family and have a huge convivial inviting all races, cultures, and faiths. - Colosi

If I am not mistaken, these were your words: "I am an American first and an Italian-American second. I support adding 'Mediterranean/Middle Eastern' as a separate category on the application form." But what you said has just defeated what you have wrote just now; that all Caucasians should be viewed as white. European American does not divide the white community, it defines the white community. White and Caucasian are not synonomous.

I find it interesting that you view the French no more Latin and the Icelanders as Scandinavians, yet definitions of Icelanders is as follows "homogeneous mixture of descendants of Norse and Celts 94%"[3], which very well happens to be the ethnic base of Scandinavians. Also, the definition of French goes on to say: "Celtic and Latin with Teutonic base"[4]. Hey, I did not write it, professionals did, so your conclusion about the French not being Latin is wrong, considering that you consider Turks as a European populace, considering that 1) the only thing European about Turkey is the fact that the outer regions of Turkey are actually Islamified ethnic Greeks who converted explaining why many have light complexions average to southern Europeans (most likely forced to convert during Ottoman Rule). The Turks are a Turkic people, a people that stretches from Turkey to China, not European. Just because their country stretches out into the Mediterranean does not automatically mean they are populated with Mediterranean Europeans!

The one thing that seperates us Canadians from Americans is that we know what the definition of European is. Me being the huge mutt that I am racially, I dont support racism or exclusion of ethnic groups, but the term European-American or European-Canadian unifies the European people, who have so much in common, and yet are so diverse and continue to hold fast to cultural traditions.

I am happy that I was able to establish the fact for you that Latin America should just stay Latin America, because that is their culture, fashioned after southern Europe allows them to bear that name, not the vague Hispanic, which exclusionist Americans use to define someone because they speak a different language. You state that you hope the Albanians and Turks will help Europe's problem with Muslims...its more like the other way round. While you preach diversity, tell that to 1.5 million Armenian Christians who are dead under Ottoman Muslim hands. The "Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition" (actually similarities is a better word) should be used to transcend barriers in the Arab world. After all, Europeans are the ones letting them in, not vice versa.

The stereotypes of southern Europeans in the long run will change. As I have stated millions of times, European ethnicities are being blurred through inter-European marriages. Go to New York, Montreal, Toronto, Philadelphia; literally hundreds of thousands are mixed Irish-Italian, or Scot-Italians or German-Italians much like yourself Mr. Colosi. Every European has been discriminated against, but like everything else in the world, perceptions and notions change, and I think that the future is positive for us Southern and Balkan Europeans. - Galati (your biggest mutt; Italian, Jamaican, Native Jamaican Indian, and British Isles origin)

Okay, so I view the French Latin to such a lesser extent that I don't feel it's necessary to include them. The French are more like WASPs than Latins because they fought a war in support of Protestants against Italy after the Protestant Reformation and they helped the WASPs of America achieve their independence from Britain and thus they were never treated like second-class citizens in America. The French even at one time during the late Middle Ages had their own Pope. In addition, the French-speaking counties in the Americas are not included with Latin America and French people are never mistaken for Latinos like some Portuguese-Americans, Italian-Americans, and Spanish-Americans have been. I have been asked if I was Mexican before. My Italian surname properly pronounced as one would in Spanish. Hatians aren't considered Latinos. I know a handful of people who are Irish-Italian here in America because onI watch Fox News and they have Brian Kilmead and Neil Cavuto who are Irish-Italian and the country singer, Jody Macina is Irish-Italian.

Yes, similaries is a better word I rebel here in America against what is called the Judeo-Christian tradition. Slavs are Slavs no matter if they come from southern Europe or not they are like Anglos to me, I just don't find any distinctive qualities about them as they have media presence and are rarely if ever depicted in any way. I would never call myself an European-American. I am an American through and through and have a cosmopolitan view, yet I am facinated by Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, Albanian, and Greek culture and history and also Middle Eastern culture and history. My views on the French's Latiness make so little sense to me that I've decided not to include them as Latins.

European American does not define the white community in my personal view nor on Census forms and in the minds of mainstream America as there are white people of non-European background in this country as I pointed out with Arab-Americans. Over all, I am indifferent to being white it is dumb label promoted by racists. I do not want a European American category and nor do I want a Middle Eastern category. If more lawsuits arrive involving racial status, I will force people to consider a "Mediterranean/Middle Eastern" category.- Colosi

But you just said that categories are used by racist and exclusionist people. You wrote: 'If more lawsuits arrive involving racial status, I will force people to consider a "Mediterranean/Middle Eastern" category.' Wow... first of all, it's not the white European population that is rallying to take Middle Easterners out of the white category, it is Arabs themselves (who make up 0.6% of the nation's population), and you being of partial Italian descent should in no way feel affected by their actions to the point where you should "force" or what I like to call, impose, your own category. You may not feel yourself as European, but reality is is that you are, and should get out of self-denial. Your denial France's Latiness, is as bad as David Duke denying an Arabs whiteness. You said your American through and through, so why are you lobbying for a new category when their is an "American" category that you can tick yourself?

The French are indeed a Latin people. The French and Haitians, and Quebecois are not viewed as Latino, the same reason why Italians are not viewed as Latinos in the United States, because this exclusionist definiton was given to those from Latin America, whereas the true Latins consist of the French, Corsicans, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Monagasque, Andorran, Italo-Swiss, San Marinnese, and others, but that does not bother me because the Latin American culture resembles Latin Europeans or what I like to call them Romance-Europeans, so there is nothing wrong with them being called Latino. Calling them Hispanic is just as hypocritical, as the Romans gave Spain the name Hispania. Besides, a lot of white Europeans of Latin culture happen to live in Latin America. Portugal, Spain, Italy, along with France are South-Western European, bound by a Latin culture, similar ethnicity, and the same Catholic faith!!!

The point as to whether you know Italian-Irish or other Italian/Scottish/English/German people does not mean anything, besdies the point they are mixing out as you yourself just happens to be those similar mixes!!! Just read the statistics above, that tells you the increasing melting of Italians as we know it. Go to New England, where every white person is Irish/Italian/German combined.

You may not make a distinction betweeen someone who is Anglo and someone who is Eastern European, but the point is is that they have been discriminated and seen as non-white at one time; they were called Huns in the 1950's. There are many distinctive terms and stereotypes of Eastern Europeans, one being that they were "prone to deseases that would kill a white man." But the distinction between Italians and Anglo-Saxon Americans are diminishing by the general American population, but it seems of un-established reasoning created ironically by "half" and "full-Italians" that one should revive these distinctions which is ridiculous. In fact, the word Anglo in America does not even refer to someone of British descent anymore. It refers to English-speaking Europeans (whites) no matter what ethnicity. I have just proved to ethnic bases of two peoples in which you were denying their ancestry. I lived in France, and there are 5 million Italians in France. You cant tell the difference between a Frenchmen and an Italian. In fact, the French called themselves Latin and "Italy's closest cousins". Go to Europe and see for yourself.

I am fascinated by Italians. My cousins in Italy are redheads with green eyes, rather than the traditional brunette features. What is more, I am fascinated with other southern European cultures...I am fascinated by Europeans in general. They are so diverse in of amongst themselves, but are bound by a sense of European customs, lifestyle and pride. A Mediterrnean/Middle Eastern category would not be beneficial...I mean what a way to waterdown the uniqueness and differences from southern Europeans who include Latins (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian), Slavs (Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians), Illyrians (Albanians) and Greeks, as opposed to the Islamic society of North Africa and the Middle East, which happens to be different. I mean North Africans and Middle Easterners themselves are different ethnically and culturally for starters. - Galati

All parts of Europe attract me, yet my heart is in the Mediterranean. Southern Slavs are Mediterranean to some extent yet I tend to group them and Russians all together since they haven't lived in the Balkans for as long as Greeks and Albanians and thus I discount them on that basis. In addition, the act of seperating Slavs into seperate categories doesn't make sense to me at all. If racial profiling was legal in this country as a way to hunt for terrorists, then my suggested Mediterrnean/Middle Eastern category may get passed around and considered. In my country White and Caucasian are used incorrectly as synonyms as well as in Canada. I have nothing against Anglo-America in general I just think it would be cool to be a minority thanks to MTV and hip hop culture and growing up wanting to Mexican because I liked the way the name Julio sounded and wished my skin was brown and I love Mexican culture, too. Americanized version of their cuisine unfortunately is what I am most used to. I know northern Italian-Americans and they are cool and surprisingly no more or less Italian than I am. - Colosi

I am very curious about something. What is your definition of Mediterranean. See it is a common concensus among many that it includes south-western Europe (Italy, Spain, Portugal, southern France, Andorra, Monaco), and balkan Europe (South Slav, and Greek). There is no such thing as a Mediterranean ethnicity, because the Mediterranean consists of South Europe. We call them Mediterranean Europeans on the basis that they are situated on the northern region of the Mediterranean Basin, whereas those situated on the southern basin are North African and are significantly different from the European population. South Slav and Slavs may be homogenous to you, considering that they are both Slavic, yet you insist on the seperateness of the Walloons of Belgium, the French, and Monegasque, on the basis that they are not Latin enough for you.

Again, white and Caucasian are not synonmous in Canada as you may think. For example, people of European origin are labelled as white, while those of North African or Middle Eastern origin are labelled as Arab. You wrote: "If racial profiling was legal in this country as a way to hunt for terrorists, then my suggested Mediterrnean/Middle Eastern category may get passed around and considered." Well this is classic American thinking, always thinking the worst. Why would you want to put yourself in the situation of being racially profiled especially when you being partial Italian would not be considered a terrorist, especially when you want to eliminate racial/ethnic profiling to begin with? Highly hypocritical. The only category it seems to me that you could set up is "People who were once Racially Profiled" category and you will find that 90% of Americans will fit in that mould.

In Canada, the "colour of priviledge" (highly out-dated phrase in Canada, like many others) was always considered white. This man was interviewed in a newspaper, and he was quarter black, three quarters white, yet he had very fair skin, and light eyes. He said that when he was younger people thought he was French, Italian, Portuguese, Czech, Spaniard, Greek, Croatian, you name it, and he called these "colours of priviledge." So in contrast, you said that when you were younger you always wanted to be a minoirty, so is pulling this Mediterranean/Middle Eastern category your idea of becoming the minority you always wanted to be a minority, so I had to laugh. Buddy, I am part Black and part white, and I am proud of both all my cultures, Italian, Jamaican (mostly the first two), Native Jamaican Indian and British Isles origins. I would not want to be full black or full white. You have to come back to reality and embrace your Eastern European, German, Italian and Albanian, and whatever else you are equally, and realise what you are, and get out of your thoughts about outdated stereotypes!!! Your a European through and through, be happy about that!!! - Galati

I have come back to reality as I am very complacent with all the heritages I have. Thus, I am an a American first and Italian-American second since it is a word heard a lot. There are a lot of Italian-American celebraties and we have a lot of history here in America. Part of me is liberal and the other part is conservative, I don't subscribe to either, I subscribe to individuality. I sure watch too much MTV and day dream in addition. I was born with a passion for humanity and art and speak against racial profiling. The term European American is based under the false premise that everyone from Europe is white and thus racial profiling defeats its purpose. I am proud of what I am once my head is out of the clouds and I am a Universalistic Cosmopolitan through and through and would love to work for the UN. - Colosi

Well clearly this discussion is going nowhere because you dont want to accept change. Your so rapped up into what other people think of ethnic groups. Though I believe that European is synonomous with white because Europeans are all related, I never imposed this upon you, considering the fact, that in truth, no one person's complexion is literally "white". White is a word that people use to describe people with similar features; straight, or curly hair, with a straight nose, tanned to pale complexions, as well as a Western culture and Christian faith. You were just trying to argue above with me that Arabs should be socially considered white, not just white on a census!!! You were born with a passion for humanity and speak against racial profiling, yet you profile Italians and southern Europeans, Balkan Europeans, based on silly past Anglo-Saxon stereotypes; you wish to seperate them from the European ethnic group where that is clearly where they belong; you wish to end racial stereotyping by creating your own tick box on a census. By doing that it defeats the goal of breaking stereotypes of the Italian people!!! Come on now!!! I am very happy that I have led you back to appreciating all your cultural backgrounds, not just your Italian one considering that you wrote "I am proud of my Italian and Albanian roots but not my northern, western, or eastern European roots", yet funnily you now preach about a passion for all humanity. Passion does not mean disqualifying certain ethnic groups from certain areas on the basis of them not being Latin peoples (please read) enough, or Slavic enough!!! I have southern European, Black African, Arawak/Taino and northern European roots and I love them all equally, becuase without them I would not be alive, and living is important and not worrying!!! I have respect for you as a person for trying to defeat stereotypes, wanting to work for the UN, and your thoughts on matters, but dont fan the fire on stereotype. You mean to defeat them, but whenever you respond, in some way, you are always refering to them to justify your cause!!! - Galati

Reread it. I've changed it. It is an if, then suggestion. Art unifies all the European blood in me in expression of who I am. My minority wannabe side loves hip-hop and R&B music, while the whole me loves nearly all music genres. As someone looking to join the UN I like watching Link TV and the History Channel to gain a global perspective on the past and present. You are right that sentence doesn't represent me in truth. Throughout my life I've found myself in love with all races and wishing I was black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, or Pacific Islander. Here in America we have darks and lights from Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa and whether I am blind or not, I see not much contrast in appearance. Once Turkey becomes part of the EU the Middle East and North Africa will also follow in the near future. Morocco in my view belongs with Europe along with the rest of Africa.

So you only believe that Europeans are white. Thus, you fail to look at the reality of what happened during the 2005 Cronulla riots and in your country ending up in the death of a Brazilian electrician as proof that racial profiling disproves the false premise that everyone from Europe is white or any whiter than North Africans and Middle Easterners. - Colosi

Again, you have twisted everything I have said. I said that to me European is synonomous with white...I never said anything about Arabs not being white. Look at the Lebanese, Syrians, Israelis. Many of them are similar to European peoples of any ethnicity basically because of past racial mixing with European peoples. As I stated earlier, look at the Saudis whop are the real Arabs; I would not consider them white, even though they may be Caucasian in race.

The 2005 Cronullar Riots did not have anything to do with Italians or Croatians, or Macedonians; they were rioting against the Lebanese and Middle Easterners. Most of the white people rioting at the time were drunk who never had tensions with the Lebanese until they began to threaten European Australian women, saying that they were going to kill European-Australians, and rape white women. The word wog used to applied only to people of southern European (when Australia excepted large amounts of Italians, Greeks, Croatians, Serbians, Yugoslavs) ancestry until 1970's when the white Australia policy was abolished and immigration pattersn shifted. Australia began to shift the use of the word to call Middle Easterners and those from the Levantine regions. It was used derogatory during the Cronulla Riot, do to their Arab ethnicity, not to mention their Islamic culture which fuelled most of the racial violence as there was no racial tensions among the Lebanese and Middle Easterners before. There have never been riots towards Italians, Greeks, Serbs and Croats except during the late 1800's and early 1900's when stereotypes of Italians and other southern Europeans ran rampant. In fact, the considered white, Morris Iemma, the Italian-Australian premier of New South Wales state, told the white community to stop rioting. They never said after, "Impeach the wog premier", because he is considered white, and wog means more than southern European now. In fact, Australian white nationalist Pauline Hanson stated that she only wanted Australia only to be populated anyone from the European continent, meaning that it is not just me who considers Europeans white...I mean, through DNA testing, anyone from Europe would be positively identified as white. I have never said Turks were not white. Many of them have light complexions but like before, the outer rims of Turkey are Islamified Greeks, whereas dark interior Turks are mixed with the Kurdish element!!!

First of all, I am not from Britain, I am from Canada. Menezes, the Brazilian electrician was shot and killed in England. I cannot believe you brought this in, his shooting was a very terrible tragedy, but there were many factors that you overlooked towards his death. First of all, they were looking for Hussain Osman, an Ethiopian Black man, but the police believed that they had Menezes as the terrorist on the basis that he had "mongolian eyes" They did not kill on the basis that he looked "Middle Easterner." Heck even Poles, Ukrainians, Tatars, Hungarians, and the Germanic Austrians have "mongolian eyes." He also sort of ran from the police when they told him to stop, and the shoot-to-kill policy was set in place during this moment. The persons who blew up the buses and trains were Blacks along with others. Anyone of any race, whether white, black, Asian, mixed race, other could have been the bombers!!! It was not because he looked Middle Eastern and not white. In fact, his skin tone was never brought up. If you read before you commented on my response you would have read that white people came to "tanned to pale complexions" much like what you said above. You always talk about racial profiling, yet you love to profile what a southern European should look like. You wrote: "that racial profiling disproves the false premise that everyone from Europe is white or any whiter than North Africans and Middle Easterners." But dont you believe that...did you not say above that Middle easterners and Arabs were just as white like the Europeans. When Turkey and the Middle East becomes part of Europe, sure if that happens...then there is no need for a Middle Eastern/Mediterranean category, if they will all be white European in the future.

This whole Menezes arguments, and the Cronulla riots does not have much to do with race, it had more to do with cultural impacts on Western society. I have Italian-Australian family and they have never experienced racial taunting or profiling and they live in Wollongong, where parts of the racial taunting was going on. He went to school while the Arab kids stayed home. I know American people who would not even consider a Polish person white because she spoke with a different accent, and if that is not a distorted view of a European person, then I dont know what is...could have been the same situation for Menezes?!?!?!?!- Galati

In the Cronulla riots: "Through the remainder of the day, several more individuals of "Middle Eastern appearance" were assaulted, as well as several others who were not from an Arab, Lebanese or Islamic Middle Eastern background, including a Jewish boy and a Greek girl". This is what proves my point and if one looks and compares the appearance of Mark Copani's and Shakira's to other people from Europe and Middle East, in the end when it is all said and done there is no doubt to how Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East have always mixed up and "muttized" each other making it unreasonable to consider one of their people whiter than the other and thus fragmenting the term white is absurd as it connects those regions unbiasly now. I have never said that every Italian guy looks like Gotti brothers, considering I am not full-blooded, I don't either. Genetics very region per region and even within a country as I am sure is the case with Italy. Take a look at Tony Shaloub and King Abdullah II of Jordan who don't have a Middle Eastern or Mediterranean appearance like Mark Copani and the Gotti brothers and then try to explain why. Meredith Vieira does not look as Latin as Nelly Furtado but they are both of Portuguese descent. Thus, there is absolutely no reason why only Europeans should be considered white. I've seen Italians with tanned fair skin and I've seen Italians who fit the stereotype and could be confused for Arabs and vise versa. When I watch the Olympics I and saw Italy vs. Iraq it was pretty hard for me to notice much difference in appearances as both of teams had tan players with dark hair. They share a lot of common ancestry with Spaniards and Portuguese; and, thus, I don't understand how Italians can be genetically closer to French people. There are only perceivable and non-perceivable whites in the world. Turks came from the north where Mongolia is and some people just don't get how that has to do with most of their "whiteness" and them originally being Nordic lily-whites. A sunnier climate will also tone the skin of any culture through the course of 10,000 years. - Colosi

Well for many time already, I have stated that white people range from tan to fair complexions. In fact, white is also used to describe someone of Christian background, and Western. In reality, I have said before, no one person's complexion is literally "white". The incident of a single Jewish and Greek girl would have happened. I mean, look at Arnold Shwarz...(Austrian German); he plays Arabs and Turks in many movies; or Irishman George Clooney, both dark-complexioned Northern Europeans. The several others who may not have had Arab or Islamic culture could very well have been people of South Asian (Indian descent)?!?! It is unfair to use Mark Copani and Shakira as an example of interchangibly European and Middle Eastern as they are both mixed with European and Arab; Mark Copani, Italian and Arab; Shakira is Arab, Italian and Catalan. You wrote: "I have never said that every Italian guy looks like the Gotti brothers, considering I am not full-blooded I don't either. Genetics very region per region and even within a country as I am sure is the case with Italy." Well considering that you are only part Italian, you dont count, but I do know many full-blooded Italians, straight off the boat who do not half the stereotypical dark hair, dark eyes, tanned skin. In fact, according to geneticist Biasutti, 1 in 7 Italians are blonde, half of the population of northeastern Italy has light eyes, one third of North Western Italians, and one fifth of south-and central Italians. So much for stereotypes!!!

Italians share much ancestry with the French, Spaniards, and the Portuguese. The reason why you dont understand how Italians could be related to the French is because you dont want to believe it, becuase according to you, the French are not Latin enough. I have even read that out of 12 genetic markers that Bavarian Germans have, northern Italians share 11 out of the 12 of those markers with them. How is it that the isolated Iberian Peninsula, would solely be related to the Italians when the nation of France is in between?

You are right in saying that there are only percievable whites and non-percievable as many of it is based on opinion, and as the Australians like to believe that the epitomy of white is blonde hair blue eyes which is ridiculous, considering that the majority of white people have dark hair. - Galati

The Portuguese, Spaniards, and Italians are bigger mutts (at least I think supposing they are more than just Latin and Celtic with Teutonic as they have Greek, Etruscan, Carthagian, and Arab blood in them) and more Mediterranean than the French. Thus, I believe the French aren't Mediterranean enough culturally to be considered as Latin as Spaniards, Portuguese, and Italians. - Colosi you forogt. p.s. King Abdullah is half european!

The Portuguese and Spanish, and sure lets throw in Sicilians are the biggest mutts. Not the Italian peninsula though. Let’s try to remember that Sicily had 200 years of Arab-Islamic influence in which many were deported during the Norman French invasion in Sicily, whose rule lasted one century longer than the Arabs. The Phoenicians were a sea-faring Semitic people who said up trading posts and trading towns in Sicily to trade with people in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. However, Carthaginians did expand in Sicily for more than 300 years but the Carthaginians had colonies in France and Spain as well. However the Greeks are no doubt the most influential on the island, as the ruled it for centuries and imported a lot of immigration, and again, the Greeks set up colonies in France, in fact, France’s largest port city, Marseilles is a Greek city.

Let’s not forget that another dozen of people who had an influence on Sicily being the Sicanian, Elymian, Sicels, Romans, Germanic Vandals and Goths, Byzantine Greeks, Normans (there is a reason for many redhead Sicilians, and light hair/eyed/skinned people in the Levant, especially Arab Christians), Swabians, Angevins, Aragonese and Albanians now known as Abereshe. Yes, Sicilians are unique that they share an ethnic composition, somewhat different to a mainland Italian considering that they were under Frankish rule not to mention other such as the Celtic, Germanic, Lombards (hence Lombardia), Ligures, Romans, Greeks, Normans, Ostrogothic, Visigoth, Albanian and Illyrian influences, of course depending on the region where one is from. If you could not tell the difference between your own ethnicity and someone America is waging war with, I am very surprised.

Hey guess what the Gotti brothers favourite past-time is…the tanning salon. Thanks, ETalk Hollywood Here is their own tanning business website [5] (theres a reason why Victoria Gotti looks inflated and too old than her age). I never stated that Middle Easterners were less white than Europeans, though in reality they are (they never had all European influences Italy had), because either way they are both Caucasian in race. Just because you don’t think that the French are Mediterranean enough, does not dispel the fact that they are Latin. Mediterranean is stupid and ridiculous envelop that blurs the beauty and diversity of southern Europe, as compared to North Africa and the Near East. - Galati

Interesting Reads: http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/16421/page2/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_DNA_admixture_in_Europe

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v302244n1088h183/ (no difference between Northern Italians and Germans) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Galati (talk • contribs) 19:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

What does forgetting that King Abdullah is half European have to do with anything? When comparing him to Mark Copani who is also half European, it disproves the white supremacist's myth that only Arabs appear white because they have European ancestry. European ancestry is a lame escuse for someone appearing white and is the most absurd argument to make. I don't believe that there is such thing as "European ancestry" the ideology itself is racist as it discounts a select group of people who are only European because they are considered European. I'd guarantee you that Albanian Muslims won't be considered white nor would they be treated kindly in Australia because most Albanian Muslim men hate Westerners. I pride myself for being a Universalistic Cosmopolitan and not conforming to any side. Note that just because a British Israelist considers them self to be a real Jew doesn't mean they are. It appears to me that my earlier comment is nonsense as Albanians and Turks conflict with other Europeans. However, I don't believe your countries are completely doomed.Categories associated with skin color are racist and inaccurate. We are the Human Race and check boxes have no place in reality. Although I am proud of my European heritage, I refuse to conform to be anything but Human.

All you do is harp about genes when I've already made a point that our check boxes do not even take your argument into account and so your points are not even valid arguments. Here is a more accurate example:King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz. Happy now? Hence, Indian and other South Asians are lumped together with Chinese and Japanese people. Philipinos are lumped in with Asians even though they consider themselves Pacific Islanders although they are a genetic mixture of Caucasian and Pacific Islander and also Indian and Chinese; thus, they are unique in that way to Polynesians and other Pacific Islanders. The Hispanic category applies to people of any race who hails from a Spanish-speaking in Latin America and thus it has no genetic implications. You're right about this discussion going no where. It is going no where. So welcome to America. Take a look at this: United States Census, 2000 - Colosi

My argument is just as absurd as you stating that the reason why all Italians have dark complexions is becuase they are part Arab which only speaks for 200 years of Sicily's history and not the Italian mainland, or that the french are not LAtin enough because 2/3rds of their country is not stuck in teh Mediterranean Sea. I never said that an Arab's whiteness depends on much European one has, it was just very foolish for you to put Arabs mixed with European as an exmaple for a typical Arab, which only a Saudi is fully Arab. You wrote: "I'd guarantee you that Albanian Muslims won't be considered white nor would they be treated kindly in Australia because most Albanian Muslim men hate Westerners." Well duh, whiteness is not just about skin colour, it also has to do with culture. I am sure if the Lebanese in Australia were all Christian and Western loving people, they probably would be considered white in Australia.

I have written so many times, that skin colour has nothing to do with race, though you were so gung-ho on a Southern European persons colour and where it should be on the racial scale even though, response after response I have told you otherwise. So hypocritical!!! Good luck to those in America, but I am happy in Canada thanks!!! - Galati

Just because I disregard genetic findings as valid arguments doesn't make me hypocritcal. I look at physical anthropology first and then skin color instead. I may only reluctantly accept being white as many others of Soutern European, North African, and Middle Eastern background do because our government groups us there. I never argued about race. I don't like being in a cultural melting pot with people like David Duke trying to speak for Italian-Americans and other European Americans of southern background. It serves white nationalists no good in trying to distinguish a southern European from an Arab because not everyone of European background appears distinctly European and thus they'll refuse to accept what a white nationalist says like I do. Mediterranean Culture developed and spread throughout ancient times and is now a polished antique that still retains its quintessential Greco-Roman roots. You're welcome!!! - Colosi