Talk:Eurocentrism

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Please "sign" and date your comments by adding four tildes (like this: ~~~~) at the end of your comments. It really helps to keep track of who said what and when. Thanks Ande B 00:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 purported eurocentrism 2 judeocentrism 3 self-contradictory paragraph 4 More Bias 5 poor stuff 6 NWA 7 A source that might be worth thinking... 8 Removed "European Jesus" thing 9 How does this ignore 10 rewrite 11 deletion 12 Education 13 Offensive and Incorrect

[edit] purported eurocentrism

While Europe's contribution to modernity should be "openly acknowledged" we should also openly acknowledge the contribution of other cultures (notably Arab, indirectly Asian and African) that led to Europe's renaissance in the first place. to omit that history of how Europe came out of the Dark Age is to commit Eurocentrism. 68.155.103.121 04:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)MB Dec. 12 2006 Oh and most importantly, why write examples of "purported" Eurocentrism? shows the author's eurocentric bias right there, doesn't it?? This article needs major revisions. 68.155.103.121 04:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)MB

There is no single author, but the word "purported" is there because some of these examples are disputed or disputable. No one is saying that important intellectual and technological innovations did not get made outside of Europe, but modernity as we understand it is overwhelmingly a European event that is then, as it were, "exported" or adopted. Paul B 08:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] judeocentrism

Why is judeocentrism linked from here? Is there a relationship between the two? If so, can someone describe it, please? If not, I'll remove the link. Martin

I remember clearly that there used to be a page called Americocentrism. If I am not mistaken, it was then turned into a redirect. Now it seems to have gone completely. Should this fact be seen as Americocentrism here at Wikipedia? 131.130.181.71 13:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] self-contradictory paragraph

Deleted text: (was 2nd paragraph)

Being subject to eurocentrist practices may lead to the perception that Western concepts are deemed universal, or superior, or at least fundamentally different from those in other cultures or civilizations.

How can a concept be considered universal if while at the same time fundamentally different? This doesn't make sense.

Is this a veiled reference to the concept which justifies or predicts the dominance of Western Civilivation as a consequence of the "uniquely Western" quest to improve itself as a whole? Toynbee (?) or other historians exalt the ancient Greeks as seeking "the good" in general terms. That is, they looked not only inward (to themeselves) but outward (to other cultures) for aspects with which they might better themselves.

Is this the aspect the sentence above deems fundamentally different: the West's anti-ethnocentric tendency to pick and choose the best elements of other civilizations?

Or is the sentence echoing the historian's exaltation of the "superiority" of Western culture as a consequence of its relentless drive to become better? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 16:36, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More Bias

Interestingly enough, Afrocentricism, although nowhere near as damaging to the world's society as Eurocentricism has been, has been posted with more criticism than this article. I post valid critical response into the article and ALL of it is deleted. So it seems that criticism of Afrocentricism is permitted where it interferes with sound objective educational development, but criticism of Eurocentricism is avoided even though it has interfered with life libertiy and self determination, caused slavery, oligarchies, and racial division.

Another more offensive tradition in Eurocentric discourse and scholarship is for Eurocentric minded scholars to take a "European by default" approach to discussing the history of any mixed culture or ancient civilization that could possibly have had contact with European oriented peoples. By assuming that contact was made in antiquity, the Eurocentric scholar will assert that the culture or civilization was by default "European" or "Caucasoid" in antiquity, and that these characteristics were the foundations that caused civilizations like Egypt, Ethiopia, Israel, and many East Indian civilizations to flourish in history. Usually the tradition will assert a condition in stating that de-empathizes or minimizes the non-European influence by using words like "although" and "however" after facts had shown that subject matter in question is not European in nature. This conditioning is done to harmonize the psychological need of the Eurocentric minded to lay claim to everything meaningful in history. Most notably is the need to lay claim to the Biblical and ancient Egyptian histories that are in fact not Eurocentric histories.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.254.174.148 (Talk) (talk • contribs) .

[edit] poor stuff

For such an important concept, this is a very poor quality article which barely addresses the important issues. It also contains a lot of very garbled stuff (some of it added by the indignant anonymous contributor above). It's difficult to know what to make of paragraph like this:

For example, the very definition of a continent was expanded to separate the Eurasian continent into two parts, Europe and Asia as to place Europe itself into more prominence. In addition cartesian maps have been designed throughout history to center the northwestern part of Europe (most notably Great Britain) in the map.

What is a "cartesian map": one designed by Descartes? When was the "definition of a continent" expanded to divide up Eurasia to promote Europe? The Europe/Asia distinction dates back to the ancient world, before the extent of these landmasses were known and before "Eurocentrism" was a meaningful concept or "Eurasia" known to exist. So this is wholly false, historically. Anyway, the argument makes no sense. In itself, dividing the landmass no more promotes Europe than Asia. As for world maps, they were first created by Europeans, so naturally expanded to the left and right from Europe, as more of the world became known. As a historical process this is pretty much inevitable, and conforms to the way known non-European maps developed with the map-making country in the centre. But it so happens it's virtually impossible to divide up the world any other way without chopping through a large landmass. Try it with a globe. Paul B 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC).

The entire paragraph "Eurocentric Activities in Public Scholarship" is extremely POV and needs to be reworked or, better, deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.87.253.69 (Talk) (talk • contribs) .

[edit] NWA

Eurocentrics, especially when they have the power to do so, will take it upon themselves to dominate discourse, or unilaterally modify the rules of an institution or service that provides information to the public. This is done usually done in order to reassert their point of view into the discourse in such a way as to ultimately veto opposing view points. This is also done by taking a surreptitious method of inserting their view in discourse, they will insert comments that contain facts, but are placed in such a way to hopefully alter the perceptions of the reader, irregardless of the overall "bigger picture" that the message conveys. Usually this method is designed to maintain a status quo viewpoint in regards to racial and historical issues. For example, when discussing the origins of Black people, a Eurocentric scholar may insist early on that Black people are not significant, or important, or numerous in some areas of the world, as to disrupt the reader from having a high view of Black history in respect to the world's overall history.

Blatant POV.

Get rid of it someone.

Your wish is my command. I've moved the comment to bottom of page - for new comments. Paul B 11:12 20 Aug 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A source that might be worth thinking...

[1]

interesting. the data needs to be verified though. For instance, many mathematical ideas stated (algebra, negative #s etc) came from india to middle east. I would like to remove the especially in especially Islamic mathematics from the main page. Any objections, please let me know. The scientific discoveries parah are equally applicable to India, china etc - to make this page better, I'd suggest we don't make generic statements but possibly make a short list of (verified) claims to backup the statement. --Pranathi 00:38, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The islamic world was more advanced than europe before renaissance. But the foll parah is stretching it, IMO. I will be removing shortly. Any objections, let me know: Also, it can be said that modern science can find its routes from the Islamic world, for example, almost every major breakthrough made during the rennaisance in Europe, was already advanced in the Islamic world, (examples?) usually long time before. Many of the mathematical, medical and other scientific advances that should be credited for the Islamic world, are usally claimed to be invented by Europeans.

To stay it needs to be backed up with examples. And cannot use verbiage like 'almost every'.--Pranathi 02:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add the term 'Orientalism' to the See also section, simply because the concept represents a line of thinking about biased scholarly research in a similar vein to the way Eurocentric assessments of culture and ideas operate. I would also like to add the term 'Eurocentrism' to the last line of the Orientalism article, adding it alongside the term Occidentalism, which in the context of the article has a similar definition of terms comparable to Eurocentrism. Any objections please msg me, or discuss. Peace! User talk:Drakonicon Drakonicon 20:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Also consider adding Postmodernism because all these cultural bias awareness 'isms' are emergent properties of the general umbrella term 'Postmodernism'. One essay that might open up this idea is The Postmodern Condition by Jean-Francois Lyotard. Anyway, I added it because I believe Eurocentrism is akin to the concept of cultural relativism. In the Postmodernism article, Eurocentrism can be seen in terms of 'cultural relativism'. User talk:Drakonicon Drakonicon 20:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "European Jesus" thing

It's not an example of Eurocentrism so much as an example of artistic license, and the way that historical/legendary/mythical subjects are portrayed in the arts based on when and where the painting is painted, the statue made, etc. East Asian Buddhists have Asian-looking Buddhists (He was Indian). Roman soldiers in paintings of Christ on the cross made during the Renaissance often wear Renaissance-period armour. Etc. --Edward Wakelin 01:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How does this ignore

Erasing and ignoring of history. Isn't the trade mark of eurocentrism is to basically deny anyone and everyones history. If it couldn't be denied then it was destroyed or claimed white. You can any native american or black and they will say that at least. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs) .

I completely agree. I hear "America doesn't have as much history as Europe" coming from a lot of Europeans. I'm Cherokee and living in former the territory of the former Powhatan Empire. An Empire for crying out loud. We have our own written history dating back hundreds of years prior to the arrival of Europeans. But because we're not European, our history doesn't count. Only Europeans can even have civilization, everyone else is savage. 24.254.163.104 12:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC) Lucy

[edit] rewrite

This article needs a major rewrite, so it is less of a whinge and more of a balanced history. The "eurocentic" quotations are a clear example of the confusion that reigns here. The Tonybee quote is part of a long passage in which he is examining the theory that civilization is dependant on race - a theory he rejects. In doing so, he explores all the civilizations known to him around the world. In other words this passage is the opposite of Eurocentric! The comments about Hermeticism are also mostly nonsense. Greek philosophy was always central to the understanding of the achievements of the ancient world.

What we really need is a sensible account of the good reasons why Europe has been considered to be central, not to take it for granted that this is all down to prejudice and racism. The fact that the modern world as we know it is a result of the history of western Europe between c1600 and 1900 needs to be acknowledged openly. Only in that context can debates about the importance of ancient European culture be judged in relation to those of other parts of the world, and in this context the issue of the importance of the achievements of Islamic scholars, Indian mathematicians etc, becomes significant.

We should also discuss where and when "eurocentrism" is to be objected to. In Europe itself one would expect that European history would be taught rather more than that of, say, China. In China you'd expect the opposite. The role of Europe in the history of America, Australia etc. is more problematic, since the culture of these countries after colonisation was essentially a direct extension of that of Europe itself, inheriting language, culture, political systems etc.

I've started a rewrite but more needs to be done. Paul B 03:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Some of the rewrite and your argument (it's not all prejudice and racism) makes sense. But I think we must take care not to project Europe as the peak of civilization even toward the last few centuries- Only Europe had achieved the last stage. It was thus uniquely responsible for the scientific, technological and cultural achievements that constitute the modern world. What do you mean by cultural acheivements and how are Europe's superior? Also it must be noted that europe colonized a large part of the world and appropriated many technologies and wealth suitable for their advancement. Their 'advancements' also curiously coincided with their colonial expansions. For example, see starting at 'Indian and Industrial revolution' in [2] &[3]. We must also be sensitive to the complaint that Europe after subjugating the rest of the world, used it's might to project itself as the peak of civilization and that it's colonizing the world was for the benefit of the subjugated. The victor's portrayal is the only one that survives and dominates. The victor can put their spin on anything. While Macaulay's statement that 'all of Indian literature is not worth a single english book' is an extreme, it is representative of the attitudes of the people that dominate definitions of history, science etc at the time.

Eurocentrism must be objected to when say european history is passed off as say 'World history' no matter where it is taught or 'Philosophy' being taught as only western philosophy. Emphasis on the country's history is appropriate in school books, but not in university courses that teach eurocentrically under misleading titles. --Pranathi 19:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The quotation you extracted was intened as a summary of the arguments of a number of 19th century writers. I intend to go on to explore the question of what it might mean to claim that cultural achieements are more important. I don't know what you mean by European "achievements curiously coincided with their colonial expansions". If you mean that colonisation helped fuel industrial expansion, that's no doubt true, but I'm not sure how scientific and technological developments were assisted by colonoisation, rather I'd have thought, the economic and miliary power given by technolgy helped to sustain imperialism. Paul B 22:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I may have taken that sentence out of context - as I am re-reading it now, your new edits have clarified the stance. I also like the new edits showcasing the dominance of the imperialist's version of history.

the economic and military power given by technolgy helped to sustain imperialism - not necessarily. As in the Americas example, military power was an advantage but it was mainly other circumstances (susceptability to disease) that helped them gain control. In India's case also, military power helped (not economic power as India was wealthier at the time), but the state of India at the time with it's broken up small kingdoms, weak Indian leadership in some states, british politics and the internal alliances they formed also played a big part. [4]--Pranathi 21:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I have made a bold attempt at some modifications. Hope I haven't offended anyone. This article still has a long way to go. -Halidecyphon 10:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] deletion

An anonymous editor has been deleting the latter part of this sentence "Cartesian maps have been designed throughout known history to center the northwestern part of Europe (most notably Great Britain) in the map. (however this model does ensure that land regions are concentrated in the centre without Eurasia being split in two)." The point of this latter part is to point out that there are reasons other than "Eurocentrism" for dividing the map at the Bering strait, which puts western Europe very roughly in the middle. There are many variations, depending on the projection of course. London quite often placed to the left of centre. Yes, there are maps in which London is used as the exact central point, but that's not relevant to the statement being made here, which is simply that the Breing strait is the most obvious place to split a map irrespective of any ideas about the relative status of different regions. Indeed the London-centric maps typically slice through a bit of Russia. I don't know what is meant by the statement that "London cuts off the Iberian Peninsula". Paul B 23:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

(Response): OK, I see what you're trying to say. I was specifically disagreeing with the idea that using the Greenwich Meridian as a Prime Meridian was not Eurocentric. That part of London is often used as an exact central point (not just north-west Europe in general), since it is the zeroth line of longitude. Also, there seems to be no reason for this that is not historical or political: a line through Greenwich leaves the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal) in a different hemisphere from the rest of Eurasia, and even puts most of Europe (considered to be the Western world) in the Eastern hemisphere. However, I do take your point about the Bering Strait being a logical place to divide the map (shouldn't London be right of centre if it is not to divide Europe and Africa in two?), and I'm just going to make a slight edit on the article to point out that current maps do not significantly split any continents down the middle, not just Eurasia (Antarctica excluded, of course). 22:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Education

I can't speak for the rest of Europe and don't know about other parts of the UK but we spent more than a term looking at the history of "Native Americans" at the start of Secondary School, and returned to them again for GCSE... That included pre-European colonisation. - JVG 06:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Offensive and Incorrect

I have deleted several lines which are unsupported and biased.

I agree with the names of many states having european names as perhaps eurocentric and the eurocentrism with regards to mapping but everything else is just heresay and anti-european. If western schools populated by mostly europeans emphasize european history that is understandable.

This article should show real examples of "alleged" eurocentrism and define what the term means. It should not make random accusations based on the belief of the author. Look at the article islamophobia . There must be actual cases in which people accuse the west of being eurocentric. --Gordon geko 19:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)