Talk:Euro/Archive02

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See also Euro talk Archive 1, Euro talk Archive 3.

Contents 1 Old currencies 2 Sam Francis' economics coursework 3 Introduction rate to the USD 4 Stability and budget deficit control 5 Current banknote pictures 6 Euro HTML entity 7 Number of EU countries 8 Euro in former Yugoslavia and elsewhere outside the Eurozone 9 updated map 10 Changing USD to $ 11 Sweden 12 Hegemonic status of the dollar 13 Duplication with Eurozone 14 Language problems with Euro 15 US Budget deficit 16 Denmark 17 Image of euro sign in various fonts 18 Speculation About Euro's Future 19 Related currencies 20 Latvia's ERM Participation

Old currencies

The article currently says that the old currencies existed as "subdivisions of the euro". This seems bizarre to me -- they were simply in parallel use -- surely that's a much better term? (I might change it if no one objects, or I might just forget about this page; we'll see!) -- Sam

I believe the point being made is that the relationship of the franc to the euro, during that time, was much the same as the relationship of the centime to the franc had been.

Indeed. Once the Euro was launched in 99, the Franc, DM, etc technically ceased to exist. The franc, DM, etc coins that remained in circulation for a further 3 years were bizarre sub-multiples of the Euro until their removal in 2002. -- Tarquin 22:16 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)

• Yes, the Euro exists since 1999, and not 2002 in the form of the national currencies! Today's Euro coins are a vision of that, there are 12 (more) different Euro coins. -Pedro 13:18, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sam Francis' economics coursework

I've uploaded my economics coursework -- a report on the Euro from an British perspective. Some of it might be useful for this article. User:Sam Francis/The Euro. -- Sam 18:19 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

Introduction rate to the USD

I believe the introduction rate of the euro was USD 1.16 and not USD 1.18. The latter was the peak reached right after the start before the euro started its decline.

- USD 1.1789 (= GBP 0.7111)is the earliest value in the ECB's table of past rates, dated 4 Jan 1999. The euro peaks the next day (1.1790, 0.7122) then declines. Andy G 15:36 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)

On 31 December 1998 the euro rate was set at ECU 1 = USD 1.16675. Several online sources agree on this.

Stability and budget deficit control

There should be a note on stability and budget deficit control: Appearantly the ECB and the European commission are not strong enough to enforce budget deficit control on the larger economies (e.g., France and Germany). These countries build up deficits, mostly without facing the problem of increased inflation or increased cost of financing (because most smaller countries still obey to the Euro stability agreements). This encourages politically influential countries to run deficits larger than necessary. MH 17:19, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Current banknote pictures

It would be a nice addition if someone were to scan (and possibly montage) the current banknotes. This is done to good effect in United States dollar. -- Finlay McWalter 12:27, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Silly me. It's already in Euro_banknotes. Duh. -- Finlay McWalter 12:29, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Euro HTML entity

The HTML entity € (&#8364) displays as the standard currency symbol in my Mozilla 1.6 browser, and not as the euro symbol (a round E with double middle bar). Is that a problem with Mozilla? AxelBoldt 00:03, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I see a rounded E with double middle bar on mozilla 1.6 on win32. Perhaps you have a character coding issue (I'm set to use "Western"). Alternatively, perhaps the default font substitution you've got substitutes the normal wikipedia font to one that lacks the euro symbol. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:35, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ok, so it must be a but at my end (Mozilla 1.6 on Linux). I'll investigate. AxelBoldt

Number of EU countries

• Please update "twelve of the fifteen countries of the european union" with

"twelve of the twenty-five countries of the european union" on 1st May 2004

• Eastern EU member states will likely join the European System of Central banks too.

TheWikipedian

Euro in former Yugoslavia and elsewhere outside the Eurozone

I'm curious that certain countries which are not even members of the EU are permitted to use this currency. Can someone please tell me how this works? Meursault2004 19:45, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

They are not permitted to do so by any treaty, but the currency is in use there. The people using the currency simply have their own caches of the currency, much like how in many tourism nations one can pay with US Dollars in the stores without having to exchange it for the local currency. — Jor (Talk) 20:07, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. Meursault2004 20:36, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Montenegro and Kosovo indeed use Euro and don't have any local currency. But these two "countries" are not members of the European Central Bank neither have any deciding role within it. So when ECB decides to manipulate with interest rates etc. it will consult those 12 members but it won't care how this will affect Montenegro and Kosovo economy. --Fpga 09:59, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In the Turkish bath in the Sultanahmet district in Istanbul the prices are quoted in Turkish lira, Euro and USD. You see this in other touristy parts of Turkey as well. How common is it elsewhere in Europe? Would be good info. for the article. Ellsworth 21:13, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In almost every european country there are places where you can pay in Euro, most of them tourist centers. I spent one week in Denmark without ever using danish crowns, in many shops in London it's possible to pay in Euro, and on a trip to egypt this year, the hotels and most of the shops and restaurants accepted Euro, egyptian pounds, and USD. --Lode 23:44, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Indeed -- the Jersey Military Museum takes Euros, as do some other places on the island. If I recall my visit a couple of years ago, it was cheaper for adults to pay their museum entrance charge in Euros, and children in Sterling! -- Arwel 00:25, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

updated map

Minor update: coloured the eurozone maps so that it did not distinguish between old and new EU members that do not use the euro.

Changing USD to $

Recently someone did an edit, changing USD in the text to $. I feel this is both imprecise (lots of countries call their currencies "dollar" whereas there is only one USD) and a violation of NPOV (it's using the point of view of the USA, ignoring that of other countries with dollars as their currency). For this reason I suggest reverting; what do others think? -- Cabalamat 21:13, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Really, I think it should be "US$", but then, I'm odd... ;-)

James F. (talk) 21:56, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Not at all - I would consider US$ less ambiguous (less arrogant?), yet not as yuck as USD too. (I hate when folks have to use EUR rather than € - especially here in Ireland - hello - it's on the keyboard!) Zoney 00:18, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd be happy with "US$" instead of "USD". Regarding "EUR" v. "€", I'm happy with either.

I'm a supporter of "USD" -- no ambiguity, no arrogance, it's just one your friendly neighbourhood ISO 4217 codes. Re Cabalamat above -- you're right that lots of countries use dollars, and a fair number of others use the $ symbol to identify currencies with names other than "dollars". A vocal advocate of ISO 4217, –Hajor 00:49, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Hajor, I wasn't aware that some countries use the $ symbol fro currencies other than dollars. I guess that reinforces my point -- Cabalamat 17:40, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Sweden

Edited the line "unlike the UK, Denmark and Sweden, there is no "opt out" permitted." This was incorrect as Sweden does not have an opt-out, all countries joining the EU in or after 1994 cannot get opt-outs. Grunners 01:18, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

That's right. Sweden just don't meet all criterias (deliberately): I think a country has to take part in the European Exchange Rate Mechanism for two consecutive years, in order to be permitted to introduce the Euro. If Sweden one day decides to replace the Swedish krona, they first have to enter the ERM mechanism and than wait for 2 years.

Hegemonic status of the dollar

I don't like this. Hegemony is not defined here, and the additions are not neutral.

It probably needs editing - but the topics are quite appropriate really - and make some fair points I have heard in various current affairs media. If it needs NPOV editing - do that! I don't quite know what language would get the points across in a more neutral fashion - besides - I mostly wholeheartly agree with that POV! :o)

Zoney 16:16, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, pricing of oil in dollars has received a lot of press, even though it is hard to see how merely quoting the price in dollars affects demand for dollars, since large crude oil buyers and sellers can buy and sell dollars and euros almost instantly, so do not have to keep large amounts of dollars on hand. Holding of dollar reserves by oil-producing countries of course creates demand for dollars, but this is not tied to quoting oil prices in dollars; in fact, much larger dollar reserves are held by East Asian countries because of their trade ties to the US.

In any case, lengthy discussion of the reserve use of the dollar is not about the Euro per se, and belongs in an article about the dollar or about various currencies. The Euro article should have brief mention and links as needed.

Duplication with Eurozone

There's considerable duplication of content between this article and Eurozone. It seems to me that it would be best to move all the eurozone stuff out to that article. --Shallot 12:56, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Language problems with Euro

Should the recent story be included to this article or not:

Official languages of some countries that joined EU this year use slightly different words for Euro. In September council of members' financial ministers decided that all EU countries (except Greece with its own script) should use "euro" only regardless of linguistic rules of their languages. A few days ago Lithuania decided not to sign the constitutional contract (at the end of October) if it is not allowed to write "euras" in its own way. Four new members (Latvia, Hungary, Slovenia and Malta) supported Lithuania and recently a new compromise was achieved. All 5 countries must use "euro" in correspondence with EU and it should be used in all official translations of the constitution contract. 3 countries accepted this, but Latvia and Hungary don't. However they don't intend to obstruct signing of the European constitution but want a sort of a declaration that they don't accept this "solution".

The story must have appeared in European Voice.

Also on BBC News Online [1] zoney ♣ talk 10:40, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

US Budget deficit

The U.S. budget deficit is about 427 G$, or 3.7 % of gross domestic product, while the current account—the broadest trade measure since it adds investment flows—hit a record 166.18 G$ shortfall in the second quarter of 2004.

Could we please not use non-standard abbreviations. I have no idea how much money is being called a G$. If it's an "American billion/European milliard" then why not write it out in full - $427,000,000,000 - which would at least allow people to see unambiguously how much money is meant. -- Arwel 22:25, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Denmark

The article currently gives the impression that Denmark has an opy-out but is just in the queue to join the euro in the same way as the new EU countries. In fact, Denmark will only join if that is approved in a referendum, and there has already been one referendum at which the euro was rejected. I suggest that this should at least be mentioned, especially since Sweden's referendum is. 131.111.8.97 04:54, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Done. Nightstallion 13:40, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The UK and Denmark do have an opt-out clause: They are not obliged to introduce the Euro (even if they meet all of the criteria - what Denmark does). Sweden, on the other hand, is legally bound to introduce the Euro, if they one day meet the criteria (but they deliberately refrained from joining the [ERM], which is one of them). Gugganij 12:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image of euro sign in various fonts

I'm of the opinion that the image of the Euro symbol in various fonts is superfluous to this article - does it really add anything to the reader's understanding of the Euro? Worldtraveller 16:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't see that it does any harm (although if someone can set it up to be text based it would save bandwidth, can we do that?) I'm more concerned that the caption lists 7 fonts, but there are 8 symbols. 62.252.32.13 00:44, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Speculation About Euro's Future

I am wondering about Wikipedia's policy regarding forecasts and predictions and its passing of as undeniable and inevitable fact. Much of this article is devoted to speculation about the Euro's (or is it "euro?") future. This is not an economic journal, so theories and economic predictions (which are as good as predictions about the weather) will not have a place in an encyclopedia? Or am I wrong? Just wondering! - JAA (Jan 25, 2005)

Related currencies

A number of currencies are missing. I haven't got the time to dig up the relevant info on all of them right now, but I can give you a list of currencies that need to be mentioned and implemented. They are:

Bosnia and Herzegovina Convertible Mark (BAM), Cape Verde Escudo (CVE), Comoros Franc (KMF), the two CFA Franc currencies (XAF and XOF), and the CFP Franc (XPF). All of those were previously pegged to currencies now replaced by EUR, the first to the German Mark, the second to the Portuguese Escudo, the remaining four to the French Franc. Nightstallion 22:37, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I've added the info about the Cape Verdian Escudo. Please add about the rest that insn't cause I dont have info about them. Shouldnt we also comment about the use of the Euro in countries that dont use it? The Euro is accepted has a currency in Cape Verde and Cuba, has far as I know.-Pedro 16:06, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• The mention of Cape Verde ends in a run-on sentence. However, there's no way to break it up well without answering the question of whether acceptance of the euro in Cape Verde is de facto or de jure, and whether that acceptance came about before or after the CV Prime Minister's visit to Portugal (and whether, if after, it was because of the visit). LeoO3 03:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• the acceptance of the Euro in Cape Verde is the same as the dollar in other countries of South America and Africa, it is informal. But the reason is another: It is accepted because the Euro is linked to the C.V. Escudo, so it can be used. It occurs beecause there are many Cape Verdeans imigrants/students in Portugal and Portuguese/other Europeans citizens visiting the islands. I don't know when it started to be used, but it was before.-Pedro 10:12, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latvia's ERM Participation

Sorry to be pedantic but on both the euro and Eurozone Wikipedia articles Latvia is mentioned as being party to the European Exchange Rate Mechanism however I can not find any evidence of this. As far as I know Latvia has only pegged its currency to the euro, it has not joined ERM. --Neal 20:10, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

That is, in fact, wrong. From the site: "The pegging of the lats to the euro - the first most significant monetary adjustment following Latvia's accession to the EU was effected on January 1, 2005; it will be followed by Latvia's participation in the Exchange Rate Mechanism II (ERM II)." Notice? It will be followed by Latvia's participation in ERM II... Nightstallion 19:13, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As of March 25, 2005 Latvia is still not a member of ERM II even though they peg to the euro within a +- 1% band: http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-129655-16&type=Overview ;

http://www.bank.lv/eng/main/monpolicy/mp/ 15:30, 25 Mar 2005 --JHL