Talk:Ethnic clashes of Târgu Mureş

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[edit] POV

This interpretation of events is extremely POV. I am not an expert on the topic but as far as I know the line of events is comparable to that of the muneriads, and the action on part of Hungarians which triggered the violent backlash was a peaceful demonstration for language rights. Please someone more knowledgeable join in the discussion.--Tamas 15:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am not more knowledgeable, but I agree that this article includes only some POV, instead of including information on what happened. Bogdan | Talk 16:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A Romanian -- Mihaila Cofariu -- was beaten and it appears that at first it was thought that he was Hungarian, which sparked the clashes. I can't find many references on the internet. Bogdan | Talk 16:26, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
the original entry contained only the "mainstream Romanian" POV, I added the "ethnic Hungarian" POV. Actually I have a book compiled by ethnic Hungarians on the issue but I don't think it would be accepted as an unbiased source here because of the circumstances. --Tamas 18:28, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] lynchings committed by ethnic Romanian civilians against ethnic Romanian officials

  • (There have indeed been some lynchings of repressive communist-area policemen perpetrated by ethnic Hungarians, but such events of revenge against abusive officials of the fallen dictatorship were widespread at that time all over Romania and had no ethnic motivation, as most of these lynchings were committed by ethnic Romanian civilians against ethnic Romanian officials.) ... whadda' ? -- Criztu 10:09, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, many members of Securitate were lynched by civilian mobs during in the chaotic days of the revolution. In Targu Secuiesc, a certain Ioan Aurel Agache, well-known for his sadistic and abusive behaviour, was lynched in a similar way. He was Romanian, most of the inhabitants of the town and consequently most of his murderers were ethnic Hungarians. Of course, the whole thing had nothing to do with ethnicity, but the whole incident was misinterpreted in the media creating the impression that 'Hungarians were killing Romanian officials'. Such false news created the atmosphere which led to the riots in Targu Mures.
If you wish, we can delete the last half-sentence (, as most of these lynchings were committed by ethnic Romanian civilians against ethnic Romanian officials.)--Tamas 16:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Dear Criztu, I know my wording was clumsy but I think the point I wanted to make is valid: the lynchings probably had no ethnic motivation whatsoever. If you agree with this, please help me reword the relevant section and don't just remove it as "blabla". If you do not, please tell me (and other Wikipedians) why. --Tamas 16:23, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
i don't know and am not interested in who wrote that such events of revenge against abusive officials of the fallen dictatorship were widespread at that time all over Romania but without backup, such affirmation is harmful -- Criztu 17:27, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
In January 1990, then Interim President Ion Iliescu declared a general amnesty (Law 3/1990, Article 1) for the participants of lynchings during the revolution. I think this is proof enough that there had been many such lynchings in the country. Otherwise, there would have been no need for a general amnesty, I guess. See also Romania: Moving toward NATO and the EU. A Briefing of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, page 28-29 (section Anti-Hungarian Bias in the Judicial System)--Tamas 12:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Tamas, you can assume anything you want based on what you read, but if you want to put it in the wikipedia, then you have to bring evidence.
  • the HRW doesn't say anything of "widespread lynchings" after the fall of communism, or that the discrimination of 13 hungarian convicts (that lynched 3 romanian policemen in december 1989) had triggered the ethnic clashes of TgMures in march 1990, so why are you relating the december 1989 events with the march 1990 ethnic clashes ?
  • the pdf link also talks about those 13 hungarians convicted for killing 3 romanian policemen in Harghita and Covasna in december 1989, 7 of them released in 1994, and two of them commiting suicide after 2 years.
how are these informations related to the TgMures ethinc clashes, and how can you conclude "widespread lynchings comitted by romanians against former abbusive officials" ??? -- Criztu 18:41, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I think you are right. Actually, it was not me who first mentioned the lynchings here. When I first came across this entry, I found the sentence about ethnic Hungarians attacking Romanian symbols and institutions already there. But that was all, without any specifics. I thought, maybe naively, that this refered to the lynchings. (I do not know about any other event that can be interpreted as an attack on Romanian symbols and institutions by Hungarians.) So I tried to elaborate on this issue, and that's how I got caught up in this whole lynching thing. I was quite surprised to find, me too, that HRW says nothing about the lynchings.
Now, on the basis of the HRW report, I would be quite happy to delete the whole stuff about the lynchings, as they have really nothing to do with the clashes. But then what do we do with this sentence: "The prevalent opinion in the Romanian public is that they were triggered by direct attacks of ethnic Hungarians against Romanian institutions, symbols, statues and policemen"? Should we simply add on the basis of HRW that these rumours were unsubstantiated? Or should we delete the whole sentence as unsubstantiated? What do you propose?
I guess the whole entry needs a serious rewrite on the basis of the HRW report and maybe other sources as well. I am afraid I can't do it right now as I'm in the middle of the exam period, and anyhow, I do not speak Romanian. Could you do it?
(Just one minor thing: although it turned out to be irrelevant here, I do maintain that there were widespread lynchings during the revolution. I base this on the fact that in January 1990, Interim President Ion Iliescu thought it necessary to declare a general amnesty (Law 3/1990, Article 1). 'Widespread' is maybe too strong a word, what I wanted to say is that such incidents were not limited to Hungarian-speaking areas. But anyway, I admit this question is really irrelevant here.)--Tamas 20:46, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hungarian and Romanian revisionists

I deleted the reference to "Hatvannégy Vármegye Ifjúsági Mozgalom, abbreviated: HVIM; Romanian: Mişcarea Tinerilor din cele 64 de Comitate), a virulent revisionist and irredentist Hungarian organization." because they had no role in the events whatsoever. Anyway, this organisation is insignificant, not supported by most Hungarians. One more point: if we want to compare revisionist, xeniphobic, or anti-semitic organisations in the two countries, there is the example of the Greater Romania Party with significant electorial support in the Romanian Parliament. --KIDB 09:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC) + links:

  • [1] - (romanian) Romanian Deputy Chamber discussions about HVIM
  • [2] - (english) article about a neo-nasist manifestation in Hungary, held by four organizations including HVIM


Please use the correct translation: Great Romania Party (Partidul România Mare). It is not Greater, is Great - and that is because Romania is a Great country - come and see! ;) The incorrect form Greater might lead to incorrect ideeas. I have seen that translation a lot, even on Radio Free Europe and it is not the party's official translation - I wonder who did it ? :) This party has no irredentist tendencies and no teritorial intentions regarding Hungary. I do not like this party, but I had to specify the truth about it. This party's nationalistic message is only about protecting ourselfs from the Hungarian irredentism. If organizations like HVIM and websites like hungarian-history (dot) hu and others wouldn't exist this party would have also no reason to exist. Peace! :) -Paul- 15:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC) , Romania
  • I did not say they are revisionist towards Hungary they only would like to have Moldova :-)
  • I agree, Romania is a great place.
  • You didn't comment on the anti-semitic behaviour of the party...
  • I know they would like to "protect" Romanians from Hungarians, this is always the first step towards xenophobia... --KIDB 16:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with you deleting the text. I believe it is meaningful to mention the affiliations of the persons involved. I will rv your change. I suggest you rephrase the content, if you find it offensive, but the information should remain there. Dpotop 09:51, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
In this case please try to be balanced and present similar Romanian organisations. Preferably in another article. --KIDB 09:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I see you immediately reverted everithing. Please take your time and read it carefully. I deleted only the text above, everything else was only rearranged to be more balanced. --KIDB 10:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I would like to ask NEUTRAL editors to visit [3] to see my proposed text, immediately reverted by User:Dpotop
+Dear Friend, please do not confuse me with KissL in your edits.--KIDB 10:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


Ok, I'll do it. It bothered me that the modif was done even before I had time to add the following two items which I consider essential to my argument (<5 minutes).Dpotop 10:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I read your version. And I still believe we should discuss a bit. First of all, I believe that you should leave the text added in the section "Human Rights Watch...". I already told you (actually, it's below this line) why "coverage" would not do it. Finally, extremists of both sides must be identified in the context, hence the affiliations. You can probably reduce the amount of text about them, but the data should remain. And of course, you can add data, too. Dpotop 10:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
It would be a good idea to invite neutral editors here. And sorry for the confusion. Do you know if I can change it? Dpotop 10:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
With respect to your change of "involvement" into "coverage". First of all, "coverage" is also a form of involvement. Second, I would agree with the term "coverage" if it is accompanied by the term "biased", or "allegedly biased".Dpotop 10:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Finally, if you have proof concerning the affiliation of romanians implied in the events to the Greater Romania party, please mention it. It may advance the process of determining the real responsibilities.Dpotop 10:02, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The Western media was not involved in the events, they were only involved only in effecting international public opinion after the events. And I am afraid this public opinion is your main concern, not the balanced and neutral design of the article. --KIDB 10:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, you chose as main reference for this article a press release of "Human Rights Watch". I consider that it is fair, and therefore I had no objections to letting it where you put it. However, I believe that that press release does not represent correctly the situation, but just a part of it. Another user added some text that, in my view, balances the message. You cannot place the full blame for the events on the Romanian government. There were hungarian extremists, too. It's documented, and I believe that mentioning affiliations is meaningful. So: Yes, all the info we have (you and me) comes from public oppinion, and we need to work with it. However, I do not intend to push here the public image of Romania, and you should not try to push the public image of the Hungarian minority of Romania. What we should try to do is reach something that is NPOV, with the information we have. Dpotop 10:55, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that mentioning a small Hungarian extremist group, which had no role in the events is a good way to comment on a report of an international organisation.
My text you immediately reverted also included a Hungarian victim, but left every information on another Romanian victim unchanged. After your edit, the text has become a Romanian POW.--KIDB 11:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for deleting the info about the hungarian victim. Could you add it again? Dpotop 11:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll put the victims' paragraph back and delete sentences from other places where the text in the new paragraph comes from - simple replacement of texts within the article. Please follow my edits with the History menu point.
But the other paragraph trying to explain the Human Rights Watch World Report should also be more balanced, also the reference to the irrelevant extremist organisation should be deleted, or placed into another article dealing with extremist groups. --KIDB 12:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that now is the moment to get more people involved if we want to change the text. We probably reached the point where we both are equally unhappy with the text. :) Thanks for adding the new section. Dpotop 12:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I am also looking forward to other editors' comments.--KIDB 12:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Now I have got the information: the HVM organisation was founded in 2001. No connection whatsoever to the 1990 events. I have the feelnig that -Paul- would like to suggest that the ethnic clashes were initiated by Hungarian extremists - which is no true. I will delete the sentence on HVM and the links. --KIDB 13:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The guy who founded and leads HVM (a completely ridiculous group by the way) was probably about eight years old when the events took place. The fact that Mr Cseresznyes joined this organization more than a decade after the events is completely irrelevant.--Tamas 20:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Another thing: I don't think the fact Mr Cofariu was mistaken for a Hungarian compromised HRW's report. After all, it is accepted by everyone that dozens of Hungarians and Romanians were beaten up. The report describes this general situation. There were dozens of 'real' Hungarian victims whose cases were widely publicized (e.g. Andras Suto). It is enough to refer to this confusion about Mr Cofariu once in the article, and the short sentence in the victims section is perfectly enough. --Tamas 21:05, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
User:KIDB, when you said you are going to involve other editors, I presumed you were considering neutral ones. However, I feel that User:Tamas cannot be considered neutral on this issue. He is Hungarian, so now we are two Romanians vs. two Hungarians. Let's not transform this in a revert war. If you feel like it, we can start an arbitration procedure. Civilized one. Dpotop 09:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As to why I think the deleted text is important, my reasons are the same as before. The guy was and still is an extremist. And I believe this is meaningful when presenting what happened. It was not "just a hungarian" outraged by the actions of the Romanian government or by the Romanian nationalists. Now, I agree when you talk about Romanian extremists (although I do not like it). Please accept the true portrait of your extremists, for you do have some, too. Dpotop 09:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
And finally: Nowadays an event is as much what it really was and what the media presents it. Therefore, media coverage is important. Again, you may not agree with this, but it is my oppinion.

I am sorry if you think that this article should become a list of extremist persons, from the two sides, who committed criminal acts during the clashes. I am not going to collect a list of Romanians who stormed the offices of the UDMR, and beaten the people trapped there, including the president of the organisation. The emphasis should be on a pure account of the two days, preferably written by independent international organisations, and on the possible reasons behind the clashes. If, instead of this, we create two long lists of cruelties and criminals of the Romanian and Hungarian communities, the reader will think that people living in the area are dangerous and wild natives with big knifes under their coats, ready to kill passing-by peaceful people.
The inclusion of the HVM by -Paul- shows, I think, an intention to prove that Hungarian extremists were behind the clashes. If you think, extremist organisations were involved, Vatra Romaneasca had a bit more more influence on the events... If you do a little research on them with Google, you will find a couple of pieces of interesting information about their role. And if you think the international opinion is solely based on a video tape, you underestimate quite a lot of people and international organisations. This HVM reference is funny, if you positively wish to keep it, I will include its date of funding :-) --KIDB 10:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I do agree with you that emphasis should be on a pure account of the two days, preferably written by independent international organisations, and on the possible reasons behind the clashes. The problem is that there is only one such report, and I feel that report is biased by the media coverage that surrounded the event (it was released shortly after the events, without a real investigation of the causes). I do not know exactly what Paul wanted to say. What I would like to have in this article is clear statement that extremists of both ethnies were heavily involved, and that the direct responsibility, while mainly directed to the Romanian government (which did not manage to ensure public order) is not that clear-cut. Nothing more. If we agree on this, we should be able to find a mutually-agreed formulation.Dpotop 13:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Can you read Romanian? If yes, here is the position of what I would call a pro-magyar romanian newspaper: [4]. The idea is that the Targu Mures events are not an isolated event, they are just the paroxistic burst in a long history of ethnic tension (a tension that still exists). There is guilt on both sides which goes far in the history, and these events cannot be seen independently. Dpotop 13:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry I don't understand Romanian but if you consider it to be an independent source, please feel free to summarise it in a couple of sentences and include it in the article. --KIDB 14:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Romanian is Indo-European, anyway, I tried to read it. Does this paragraph mean that only one Romanian but 8 Hungarians were put in jail by the Romanian authorities? This would explain why the UDMR protested and Cseresznyés was let free by the president later. "In evenimentele din martie 1990 au murit cinci oameni, doi romani si trei maghiari. 278 de persoane au fost ranite. O biserica ortodoxa din judet a fost incendiata, iar sediile locale ale partidelor politice au fost vandalizate. 30 de persoane au fost trimise in judecata, iar alte 21 au cunoscut arestul preventiv, in cursul urmaririi penale. Printre cei inchisi au fost 12 tigani, opt maghiari si un roman. Pe 20 martie 2005, toate faptele s-au prescris." --KIDB 16:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Translation: "During the march 1990 events 5 people died: two romanians and three magyars. 278 people were injured. One orthodox church (romanian, n. trad.) was burned, and the the local organizations of the political parties were vandalized. 30 people were indicted, and another 21 were jailed for some time. Among those indicted there were 12 gypsies (sic!), 8 magyars, and one romanian. On March 20, 2005, all related crimes were prescribed (n. trad.: an amnesty was probably granted, it's weird to have crimes prescribed after 15 years)". Dpotop 18:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Dpotop, KIDB did not invite me to joined the discussion, this page is on my watchlist as I have worked quite a bit on it. As far as HVM and Cseresznyes is concerned, you say that Mr Cseresznyes was and is an extremist. How do you know he was an extremist in 1990? All you know is that in 2005, 15 years on, he joined an extremist organization. This doesn't prove he was an extremist in 1990. --Tamas 17:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


In all, I think there is way too much in this article about the personal stories of Mr Cofariu and Mr Cseresznyes. Three lines about each would be more than enough. There were many other victims and perpetrators who could be singled out, so it's no use spending half of the article on these two guys. --Tamas 17:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
After all these "talks" I begin wondering if this subject (i mean the Tg. Mures clashes) is really a subject for an Encyclopaedia... I feel I have to reply to some questions. There were a lot of questions about why I have added the extra content and about its relevancy. I thought the facts were not presented in enough detail. And especially the confusion regarding that videotape which indeed contributed to a not-so-correct public opinion. After all, first impresion matters, they say. And it is relevant to show the connections and the affiliations (past or present) of the hungarians invovled, in order to show that they were not so "innocent". There was no HVIM in 1990 but the irredentism has been there for a lot more time. On the other hand, no Romanian will easily forget that during the Austro-Hungarian occupation the Romanian majority in Transilvanya was repressed and this leads to a certain sensiblitiy or irascibility, especially when some hungarian extremists have the bad habbit of celebrating "black" events or persons who commited ethnocide or war crimes against Romanians. -Paul- 13:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I had too the impression that your intention was to show that 1. This Cseresznyés is an extremist Hungarian beating innocent Romanians, and 2. The UDMR supports this person. (Certainly, you are sure the UDMR's protest was not based on the fact that mostly Hungarians were sentenced to jail by the Romanian authorities and Romanians beating eg. Sütő András were never found or sentenced) 3. Consequently the UDMR and most Hungarians are bad guys and extremists and this was the main reason behind the clashes. This is why you want to draw attention to the insignificant HVIM instead of talking about eg. Vatra Romaneasca... --KIDB 14:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
You got the main ideea. By the way, I have never heard of Vatra Romaneasca. Regarding Mr. Andras, if the person who injured him was not sent to trial, I am sure this is because that person wasn't identified. -Paul- 13:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
You are honest, I like this. If you haven't heard of vatra romaneasca, you must be young, but certainly below 30. Do a Google search with the following words: "vatra romaneasca tirgu mures 1990". --KIDB 14:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Can we at least establish: is Cofariu's first name properly Mihai or Mihăilă? I realize they are variants on the same name. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

In most sources he is called Mihăilă Cofariu --KIDB 16:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Videotape

As far as I know the film was taken by an Irish TV Channel. The sentence originating from the Romanian myth "The tape was misleadingly broadcast by Hungarian television, pretending to depict the ethnic Magyars being beaten by the Romanian majority ..." is again propaganda against Hungarians. --KIDB 12:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Nobody commented, I will remove the misleading information. + Critics of the report can also not prove that this international NGO was influenced by this videotape. They gained information from local sources, not from this video. The report shows a detailed account of the clashes and is not about the single event recorded on the tape. --KIDB 08:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HVIM links

Dear Dpotop, HVIM has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 1990. It was founded more than a decade later. So it is completely unjustified to have a links about it on this page. It creates the false impression that this organization had a hand in the events of 1990, which is impossible, as it did not even exist. By adding more and more irrelevant stuff to this article, all we will achieve is that the article itself becomes useless, which is surely not good for Wikipedia.--Tamas 12:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Tamas, I mentioned that the reason for my revert was anonymous edit. While such edits are quite acceptable in general, I feel that disputed ones should carry identification. I won't revert your change.Dpotop 17:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New link

This seems to be a neutral study on the events, I suggest to be included in the External links paragraph. Forget the title and read directly the description of the actual events in February-March 1990 (from page 14). It is quite obvious from this that the local police and central government did a very bad job. --KIDB 14:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I,ve just opened it, and (of course) I stumbled on the title. Don't like it in relation with this article. The events of Targu Mures are certainly the product of both nationalisms. Dpotop 09:23, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Second note. I do not consider impartial a presentation that does not include the causes of the Romanian demonstrations (school separatism, push for ethnic self-determination, etc.). Without saying that the causes justify the events, I believe that any correct presentation of the events must include this part. Dpotop 09:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've just read the first 16 pages of this document (that is, until page 11, using its own numbering), and it looks very much like a mild version of "Bad Romania" pro-hungarian propaganda. I suggest several other Romanians read this, and then we can start a discussion. I did not read the account of the Targu Mures events, yet. However, the source is not impartial. Actually, I find it outrageous. Dpotop 09:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I begin to find you outrageous. What's wrong with the title? Resurgent Romanion Nationalism is exactly what happened in Romania after the 1990 changes, as in many other eastblock states (Yugolsavia for instance). That is generally accepted by scholars. I get very worried about the interethnic relations in Romania after reading talk pages of Romania-Magyar subjects. Maartenvdbent 21:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EYE WITNESS

I'm an eye witness and I can confirm what is written in the Human Rights Watch World Report for 1990. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zmiklos (talk • contribs) 23 Feb 2006.

[edit] Name of the article and various things

Hi, should this article be moved to Ethnic clashes in Târgu Mureş? I think this is more the English convention. Also, there are still some POV issues, and slight issues with language which I will attempt to fix... ethnics on its own tends to have a pejorative usage in English (well, at least English English). - FrancisTyers 18:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, the clashes were indeed "ethnic clashes". The only acceptable replacement I could see is "magyar-romanian clashes" or "romanian-magyar clashes", but then there is the problem of which one comes first. :) Dpotop 18:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I mean in for of ;) The ethnics part refers to a part of the text that said "Hungarian ethnics". - FrancisTyers 19:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable cut

The following sentence was cut April 10, 2006 by FrancisTyers (talk • contribs) with the unrevealing summary "some fixes": "One of the perpetrators, ethnic Hungarian Pal Cseresznyes, was tried, convicted, and sentenced to 10 years in prison, but was released in 1996 by Romanian president Emil Constantinescu, as an act of reconciliation." - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, sorry, I removed that during some other edits. I should probably have done it separately, or left a more revealing edit summary. Basically I can't remember why I removed it now, feel free to re-add it. - FrancisTyers 22:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

"…leading to several severe injuries and casualties": injuries are casualties. What do you mean to say here? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry!!! I totally agree.... [User talk:Csabap|Talk]] 23:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
So what do you mean to say? "…leading to several severe injuries"? "…leading to several severe injuries and deaths"? - Jmabel | Talk 04:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../e/t/h/Talk%7EEthnic_clashes_of_T%C3%A2rgu_Mure%C5%9F_4b1a.html"