Talk:Ethiopian Semitic languages
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[edit] Gafat language
I'm adding what I have on this language from Ullendorff, but he adds no indication where it fits in the taxonomy here; I'm guessing, based on its recorded location. See the article for more information.
[edit] incomplete?
while i'm not even remotely an expert on ethiopic languages, i'm pretty sure that this list is nowhere near complete. Gringo300 12:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Ethiopic?
I see this word often, why is the catagory called Ethiopic? What exactly is Ethiopic? Mesfin 12:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Ethiopic in this context is a linguistic term referring to a certain linguistic subgrouping of the Semitic languages which confines itself roughly to the area that is commonly known as Ethiopia. — mark ✎ 14:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- Is it just a sub-grouping? I have noticed it often in reference to Ge'ez Mesfin 14:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- It is considered a subgrouping of the Southern branch of the broader family of Semitic languages (itself part of Afro-Asiatic), and Ge'ez indeed is considered part of it. In linguistics, calling this group of languages a 'genetic subgrouping' entails the claim that these languages are more closely related to each other than to certain other Semitic languages. On a sidenote, another common term for this group of languages is 'Ethiopian Semitic' (instead of Ethiopic Semitic). — mark ✎ 15:10, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- I have never seen the word Ethiopic except when it is used as a replacement for the word Ge'ez. Couldn't "Ge'ez languages" be used instead? It would be more accurate then using the word "Ethiopic" or "Ethiopian". Mesfin 03:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, now I see the problem. There is a difference, though: Ge'ez is but one of the Ethiopic languages, i.e. the Ethiopic branch of Southern Semitic. Ge'ez might be called 'Ethiopic' sometimes, but it would of course never be called 'the Ethiopic languages' (plural). But I agree that it is not really clear anyway, so I propose to move this article to Ethiopic Semitic languages. — mark ✎ 08:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- Or Ethiopian Semitic languages. — mark ✎ 08:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- To which I just moved it. — mark ✎ 08:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] West Gurage languages
I took the liberty of editing this list (sorry, I see I FORGOT THE EDIT SUMMARY) to conform to what's now on Ethnologue, which I think is a better reflection of the reality. I grouped the Sebat Bet dialects together, including Chaha, the West Gurage dialect that has been investigated the most, which was missing from the list. And Ennemor is now known as Inor, the name its speakers use (there's a new book on the language; I'll get the reference later). Endegen is a dialect of Inor, according to Ethnologue. Something similar should also be done for East Gurage. There's some recent work on Silt'e, which could verify whether Ulbareg, Wolane, and Enneqor should all be seen as dialects of Silt'e, as Ethnologue claims. I'll check it out when I get a chance. I also added Mesmes, which is extinct, according to Ethnologue. -- MikeGasser (talk) 15:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Looks good. It wouldn't hurt however to keep some of the alternative names for clarity's sake. — mark ✎ 13:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Yhever and I have been discussing this (he knows a lot more about Gurage languages than I do), and I believe it was a mistake to take seriously Ethnologue's "Sebat Bet Gurage" language. For one thing, Muher is included among the dialects, and there is not even agreement that it's Western Gurage at all. Inor, treated as a separate language by Ethnologue, is probably closer to the other "SBG" dialects than Muher is. What we agreed would be a good way to go is the following: an article on "Gurage languages", mainly to discuss whether this should be treated as a linguistic grouping at all; articles on Western Gurage, Eastern Gurage, and Northern Gurage, dialect groupings that are pretty well agreed on; and then separate articles on some of the dialects/languages within these. What I already put in the SBG article would become an article on Chaha, which was in fact the dialect I was writing about. We hope this is OK with everybody. -- MikeG (talk) 04:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
- It's fine with me. Until half a year ago, I didn't even know that there were unintelligible dialects. I just that that they had one language: Guragigna.
- Yom 05:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Importance
It would be helpful to have some indication of oimportance / modern significance next to the languages in this list. Some of them are long-unused, others are alive and thriving today. +sj + 15:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Ethiopian Semitic"
Well, it had to happen (and maybe it's not the first time?), somebody complaining about the use of "Ethiopian Semitic" to refer to this branch of Semitic (see Mesfin's edit). This (or "Ethiosemitic") is the standard term in every study I can think of, though I'm sure there are lots I don't know of. As usual, we have to go with what is current. But we don't want to offend anybody, or to be using an obvious "misnomer", so are there other suggestions? I once heard "Afro-Semitic", I think. — MikeG (talk) 05:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Misnomer or not, it really is one of the most current names for this group (see also #Ethiopic? above). Instead of abandoning it, I think a better solution might be to explain why it was not considered a misnomer at the time it came into use (I'm assuming here that it came into use after Eritrea was federated with Ethiopia and before its independence). After that, you could make the point that it "can be considered a misnomer as the north languages are found in Eritrea with two of them being exclusively used there". — mark ✎ 06:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
As the person who made the recent edit it should be no surprize to anyone when I say that I dislike the misnomer, and I am all for changing the name to something more accurate. Mesfin 18:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- We can't simply change the name, though. The only ever used terms for this group that I've ever heard are "Ethiopian Semitic"/"Ethio-Semitic" or the older, no out of use, "Ethiopic." Noting why it wasn't a misnomer at the time of naming should be done in the article, however. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 19:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Well yes, I believe the name can be changed. Marie-Claude Simeone-Senelle, a well-known French linguistic who specializes in Eritrean languages (also the person who helped discover the Dahlik language), uses the neutral term "Afro-Semitic" in all her journal articles:
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- If you want more information on Simeone-Senelle, the Dahlik language, or more articles using the term "Afro-Semitic" you can check out her C.V. I find this term to be better then the misnomer "Ethiopian Semitic"; it is more accurate and we DO have examples of its scholarly use by a well-respected professional researcher. Mesfin 21:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I am not unsympathetic to your feelings and to Simeone-Senelle's term, but I think it is clear that Wikipedia should be descriptive, not prescriptive. As such, in my opinion we should simply stick with the most commonly used term, which will be Ethio-Semitic or Ethiopian Semitic. As far as I know, Simeone-Senelle is at the moment virtually alone in her use of the term 'Afro-Semitic'. We should wait to see if this term gets picked up instead of pushing it ourselves, because promoting neologisms is not a goal of Wikipedia (see WP:NOT). Of course it is a good idea to mention her term, and it's also good to note that the languages of this grouping are not confined to Ethiopia; this can be explained by noting why the term was not a misnomer when it came into use. — mark ✎ 06:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
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- However, I don't think it is "Simeone-Senelle's term" but instead it is an attempt, by the academia who are wilfuly knowledgeable to the fact that Ethiopian Semitic is a misnomer, to find a term that is correct.
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- Tekle M Woldemikael, an Associate Professor of Sociology and Anthropology University of Redlands, uses the term "Afro-Semitic" in his 2003 article for the African Studies Review journal:
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- "Language, Education, and Public Policy in Eritrea" Mesfin 07:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
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- While the Ethiopique group of languages are also spoken by people of other nationalities, such a naming system, albeit inexact, is not exactly unique. English for instance is a West Germanic language. Farsi( persian) is an Indo-European language. The English are not Germans and neither are Iranians European or Indian. Such a system of classification is essentially genetic and is supposed to reflect the relatedness and evolution of the languages. The notion of Ethiopique therefore canvases much more than Ethiopia as a political entity and is purely linguistic. I agree with Mark that Wikipedia is descriptive and should not be prescriptive.It should be noted that Afro-Semitic is not itself very accurate, strictly speaking, as neither Eritreans nor Ethiopians are Semitic people(ethnically) but users of a semitic language.- sam
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