Talk:Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

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The article on Monophysitism refers to this Church (with a slight spelling variation / error) with the comment:

(tewahido being an Ethiopian word meaning "being made one")

If anyone can verify this, I think it should go in the article. -- IMSoP

Contents

[edit] Moving page

I can't verify the meaning of the word "tewahido" (or "tawahido"), but it does seem that the most common spelling is the former (tewahido). I'm moving the page to Tewahdio. Anthropos 15:10, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Drat! Ok, the right spelling is "tewahedo". Moving once again...

On the meaning of "Tewahedo," I am a little concerned with associating Arabic's "tawhid." Whoever is well versed in Ge'ez might be able to clarify. To "become one" in Arabic would be, "tewehud." That seems closer to the stem "tewahedo." I don't know if the stems are related, so any expertise would be helpful.

IbnBatriq 05:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they both come from the Semitic forms for the numeral "one". "One" in Arabic is "waHad", Geez has "aHad", Hebrew is also similar. "tawhid" meaning monotheism comes from the Arabic stem. "tewahedo" in Geez has a very similar etymology, it literally is a gerundive participle meaning "Having been unified", (verb tewaHade, he / it was made one)l but in this case it refers not to the monotheism; rather to the belief that Christ's nature as God and human is One and Indivisible.

ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 12:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved to full name

I've moved the article to the full English name of "Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church", which should help non-Ethiopians who have mostly never heard of "Tewahedo".--Pharos 08:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure you mean well, but the result is that we're now struggling with an even more convoluted name. So do we use the official name (viz. the Tewahedo Church), or the name English speakers may be most familiar with (viz. the Ethiopian Orthodox Church). Frankly, the name I'd guess most English speakers would use -- who are even aware of the tradition of Christianity in Ethiopia -- might be "Ethiopian Christianity". (Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a significant number who thought the proper name is "Rastafarians".) -- llywrch 04:25, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, it seems that even some reference materials refer to it (erroneously) as the "Coptic Church." If I've heard it mentioned by someone at all, it's usually just "Ethiopian Orthodox." FWIW, when I've visited Ethiopian churches here in the U.S., the sign outside says "Saint Xyz Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church." Quite a mouthful, but that's how the church refers to itself; I assume the Wikipedia article should do the same. There are already several redirects to this article. But if we must rename the article, I'd suggest "Ethiopian Orthodox Church," but leave the opening sentence as it now appears, with the word "Tewahedo." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:22, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The full name for the article is fine with me. Note also the REDIRECTs in action.

  1. Tawahedo Church (redirect page)
  2. Ethiopian Orthodox Church (redirect page)
  3. Tewahido Church (redirect page)
  4. Ethiopian Orthodox (redirect page)
  5. Ethiopian Church (redirect page)
  6. Tewahedo Church (redirect page)

After merging Abyssinian Church, "Abyssinian Church" will also become a redirect.

Pjacobi 13:26, 2005 Mar 18 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Abyssinian Church

I had started the merge a while back, creating a new "Architecture" section and copying text into it. I "modernized" that content at the time I copied it, and was planning to do the same with the remaining content before I moved it here. Then I figured, why not move it now, we can always edit it here, so that's what I've done. Most of the text is in a new section (in terms of all that attention for a 133 year span) — for which I couldn't come up with a better section title than "Jesuit interim." (I wondered about calling it "The Middle Ages," but doesn't that specifically refer to Western Europe?) And it sure is a big section, — now I wonder if that portion could have stood on its own as a separate article, called "Jesuit interim of the Ethiopian Church" or some such. Anyway, it's all here in this article now, with the following exception:

"Fasts are long and rigid. Confession and absolution, strictly enforced, give great power to the priesthood. The clergy must marry, but once only. Pilgrimage to Jerusalem is a religious duty and covers many sins."

I don't think these are already mentioned anywhere in the article but I can't quite unwind my brain to figure out where to place them (or how to re-word them). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:00, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You have a statemnt that says " a journey to Jerusalem covers many sins". This maybe what foreigners or non-orthodox ethiopians think, but this is not part of the teaching of the church. You have to diferentiate between what is real and what is fiction. You are encouraged to do 'good' as an expression of your love to the lord but not as a means of accumulating 'credit' in his Kingdom. —the preceding comment is by 64.12.116.67 - 15:03, 4 March 2006: Please sign your posts!
The statement was from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica and does not currently appear in the article. It appears in my above comments, but remember this is a talk page and not the article itself. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second to the Russian Orthodox Church

As the Coptic Pope (nor the Ethiopian Orthodox Church) is not in comunion with the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church I don't think it makes much sense to say that it is second in size only to the Russian Orthodox Church anymore than it would be to say it was n in size to x churches. Therefore I'm rewording the beginning of this article.

See: Full communion

Gabe 04:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this makes sense, the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox schisms were hundreds of years apart. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Similarities to Judaism

Regarding the following addition (June 24):

As of 2005, there are many Ethiopian Orthodox churches located throughout the United States. They have services on Sundays and there are surprisingly many common traits and beliefs beetween the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo church and the Jew's Orthodox church. As a basic example visitors to the church and all attendees are traditionally obligated to cover their heads when in the church. Also, while following the Ethiopian service, it is customary to sit and stand as is indicated by the priests, as is similar with the Jews.

Some things here needed to be clarified or corrected, and I think the topic warrants its own subsection. Firstly, only women are expected to cover their heads. Also, while it may be similar to Judaism, it is also customary to sit and stand in many Christian denominations (speaking from my own experience this would include every type of church I've ever visited). There are several other aspects that are similar to Judaism and I have included these in the article. Having said all that, I wonder if my edits might include some generalizations (knowing less about the specifics of Judaism), and I wonder if some of these similarities are actually coincidental. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:07, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Yes, a number of these similarities are purely coincidental, which is most clear with post-Biblical Jewish practices like head-covering and separate seating of men and women in synagogue.--Pharos 00:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Similarities do not mean that they are the same. Remember that Christ was a Jew. The Ethiopian church does have similarities with that tradition because all the original Fathers of faith are jews. If you take out Abraham, Isaac, Jaacob, Moses, Daniel, and David and all the rest of the Giants you have no fath and no Jesus. Remember Jesus is a historical figure as well as the "God of the universe. That is why we refer to Him in the concept of the 'Tewahedo"
I am hoping readers do understand the concept well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.67 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the article implies they are the same, just that there are similarities (some of which may be coincidental, as previously noted). But these similarities with Judaism are distinctive (as compared to Western Christianity, from which these similarities are largely absent). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Please make sure you are posting your response in the correct section. -- Gyrofrog (talk)

Concerning the scarf: Ethiopian both men and women wear it in Church or in churches’ the enclosure. It’s an observation maid in Ethiopia (Addis, North, Tigre) went I traveled there in 2003. Abroad, i.e. in London where I live now, men don't cover their head with a scarf although they often have it. The only thing I have notice between men and women regarding the usage of the scarf it that most women seems, in Ethiopia, to masque their mouth with it. I would be very interested to know why.

I haven't personally seen men covering their heads in church (other than the clergy, who wear hats) in Adama, nor in the U.S. (Your mileage may vary, but I wonder why it would vary from place to place?) I have seen men wearing nateles [sp?], like a cloak or shawl, around their shoulders (I gather that this is expected of everyone, male and female). As for covering one's mouth, they might have done so if they had just taken communion. Though from my understanding, adults typically don't receive communion (our wedding would have been an exception). Children and people older than childbearing age do take communion (if there's a way to verify this, it's probably worth mentioning in the article). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Sister church"

I've reverted this edit. --Pjacobi 22:51, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Jesuit interim: 1500 – 1633" vs. "The middle ages"

I had deliberately avoided use of the term "Middle Ages" when devising a section title, because it is specific to a time period in Western Europe (as the article itself explains). (On the other hand, it does involve Portugal... hmmm...) The best I could come up with was "Jesuit interim: 1500 – 1633". Maybe there's a section heading that would be better than either of these but for now I will revert to the former. (I will also edit a reference to Middle Ages that [as I recall] was already in the Brittanica source text.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:57, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Patriarch of Jerusalem a dissenter?

The patriarch of Jerusalem was removed from this statement, by an anonymous ID with a history that is not dependable:

"The Patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem all refused to accept the two natures doctrine proclaimed by the Council of Chalcedon in 451, thus separating them from the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches (which themselves split following the East-West Schism).

Would someone competent in this area of history please vet this statement, which remains in the text. Thank you. --Wetman 05:53, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I would think the Catholic Encyclopedia would have all the information. If my notes are correct: It was Pope Leo I who proposed the two natures doctrine (Christ is fully human and fully divine at the same time, thus two natures) yet just a single hypostasis in a Tome of 449. This was approved at the Emperor Marcian's Council of Chalcedon in 451. However, Pope Leo I rejected the council in 453, it was later accepted by Rome at Lyons II in 1274. Patriarch Nestorius of Constantinople proposed that Christ was two natures and two hypostases. The Archbishop of Alexandria Cyril proposed two natures but one hypostasis and called it the hypostatic union. Eutyches of Constantinople in 452 proposed that Christ was one divine nature (Monophysite). The Byzantine Patriarch Acacius published a "Henotikon" which opposed Pope Leo's two natures doctrine and the Emperor Zeno approved the Henotikon. In 544 the Emperor Justinianus the Great condemned the two natures doctrine and decreed the Theopaschite Formula at the Council of Constantinople in 553. In 547 Pope Vigilius issued the Iudicatum against the two natures doctrine, however he was excommunicated at the Council of Carthage in 550. Pope Pelagius I endorsed Vigilius' Iudicatum. In 638 the Emperor Heraclius decreed Patriarch Sergius' "Ecthesis" (Monothelites) which was approved by Pope Honorius I (who was condemned at the 6th Ecumenical in 680).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm "The Council of Chalcedon with its dogmatic definition did not put an end to the controversy concerning the natures of Christ and their relation to each other. Many people in the East disliked the term person used by the council to signify the union of, or the means of uniting, the two natures in Christ. They believed that Nestorianism was thereby renewed; or at least they thought the definition less satisfactory than St. Cyril's concept of the union of the two natures in Christ (Bardenhewer, Patrologie, 2nd ed., 321-22). In Palestine, Syria, Armenia, Egypt, and other countries, many monks and ecclesiastics refused to accept the definition of Chalcedon; and Monophysites are found there to this day. (See DIOSCURUS; EUTYCHIANISM; MONOPHYSITISM.)"

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07218b.htm "The mass of the people of Egypt and Syria rejected the Council of Chalcedon (451) altogether, and found in Monophysitism an outlet for their national, anti-imperial feeling. The three Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem were in schism. The Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria, Proterius, had been murdered in 457; a fanatical Monophysite, Timothy Aelurus (Ailuros), had been elected as his successor. He died in 477; the heretics elected one Peter Mongus - the "Stammerer" - to succeed him; the Catholics, John Talaia. Peter Gnapheus (Fullo), one of the most determined leaders of the heretical party, occupied the See of Antioch; Theodosius, also a Monophysite, that of Jerusalem. Over 500 bishops in these patriarchates were open partisans of Eutyches's heresy."

[edit] Iconostasis or mekdes

I was just reading the iconostasis article and realized that this is used in the Ethiopian church as well as in Eastern Orthodoxy (I'm guessing it is also used throughout the rest of Oriental Orthodoxy, as well). I'm told that in the Ethiopian church it is called a mekdes. Both this article and the iconostasis article might benefit from further explanation of the mekdes. Furthermore I am wondering if the concept, as well as other similarities such as clerical vestments etc., originated prior to the Chalcedonian schism. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I believe the word mekdes (መቅደስ) usually translates as 'Temple'... although it can also be an infinitive verbal meaning "to make holy"... (Q-D-S)... The innermost part of the sanctuary is called "Holy of holies"... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Debtera?

I remember hearing about debtera at one point. I know they are not part of the church, but as a related topic I wonder if it warrants inclusion (if not its own article). A search of Wikipedia indicates that it is mentioned in Catholic Church hierarchy#Religious and Laity (perhaps erroneously -- is there an Ethiopian rite within Roman Catholocism?). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Oriental Orthodoxy project

There is now a new proposed project at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Oriental Orthodoxy for a group which would focus on articles relating to the Oriental Orthodox Church. Any individuals interested in working with such a group should indicate as much there, to allow us to know if there is enough support to actually begin such a project. Thank you. Badbilltucker 14:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

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