Talk:Ernest Hemingway

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Archive 1


Contents

[edit] comment

The influence section claims that the sea is the central image in the work of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I have read all of Marquez's novels, several of them in Spanish, and find very little evidence for this very big claim. If you substitute shit for sea, you might have something. This is not to say that Hemingway had no influence on Marquez; he did. Just not in the way that it is stated in the article.--Johnedwineckert 22:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] older entries

HEMINGWAY WAS BORN IN 1898, not 1899!!! 192.235.8.2 17:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Did anyone notice the ernest hemingway writing on wikipedia this morning? everyting was in gangster talk! It was hillarious!

[edit] addition/comment

I agree that the above paragraph "all right in the end" is somewhat POV and definitely could be written better. Too far out of my field for me to have a bash, how about the detractors improve it a little? Mat-C 16:48, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] comment

I agree that this article should be completely rewritten. It’s full of awkward phrasing, empty phrases and downright cheesiness. The writer often lapses into a colloquial, dumbed-down magazine style of writing which is inappropriate for an online encyclopedia. For example, “Hemingway Up Close And Personal” as a chapter or subtitle is an awful cliché that just doesn’t belong.

Another example of this magazine style: “Sadly, Hemingway couldn't use this attitude in life. Maybe the pressure simply was too high. The general public never knew the real Ernest Hemingway, a man with a man's problems.” This sounds more like a high school English teacher trying to convince his teenaged students that Hemingway was a total dude than it does an excerpt from a featured article in an encyclopedia.

“A Farewell to Arms” is described as “a kind of ambulance driver's wet dream.” Later in the paragraph: “And yet... even wet dreams come on different artistic levels.” This is just plain crass.

“It [the ambivalence of death and violence] had done some good, and taught him priceless philosophies.” The article is littered with empty phrases like this. They need to be weeded out.


After reading The Old Man And The Sea, I came to wikipedia for some info about the author, and what I found horified me, this is a terrible page, amaturely written, with little information, and overly cliched. Needs serious editing.

[edit] the code?

Shouldn't there be something resembling a bit of criticism perhaps? I mean, shouldn't there at least be a mention of his code of manliness? When I teach Papa, I make a point of his being a sort of existentialist -- not much evidence of that in this article.--Peccavimus 06:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree with this person...I believe that this article is very helpful for the student environment. This article helps the student body for working purposes...If we show the article with manliness and other idea made by this person...then there woulnt be any point in looking at this article now would it?? I belive that we should keep this aticle for further students who want to get a grade A on their projects.

I agree with Paccavimus. Hemingway's code hero is a powerful theme throughout his works, and to leave it out of the article would be like omitting the Civil War from a biography of Abraham Lincoln. Also, to understand Hemingway's works and life, you must address his existential philosophy. To actually earn "a grade A on their projects" students should learn these vastly important aspects of Hemingway's style and life.

[edit] question

Can someone pls recommend a (yes, also partly critical) book-length biography of Hemingway, please. BTW, why does the article currently cite Döblin and Kundera in its bibliography section?

[edit] shotgun?

Can anyone provide a source for Hemingway's use of a Civil War pistol for his suicide? I'm sure I've read somewhere it was his favourite shotgun. Padraic 00:24, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

I have a page from my teacher with a picture taken by Robert Capa of him and Gary Cooper along with a short article on him. The article states "Too macho to abide his burly body's aging, Hemingway ended his own life with a shotgun." Followed by the signature of Robert Capa is just Magnum. Magnum may be a magazine or book publisher of some sort. --Exander 10:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
"Hemingway was twice discovered alone with a shotgun, and on the way to the hospital, where he was readmitted in April 1961 because of his suicidal behavior, he tried to walk into the whirling propeller of a plane on the airport runway. To his wife’s dismay, he was nevertheless released again at the end of June. On July 2, 1961, he shot himself with a double-barreled shotgun in the foyer of his home in Ketchum, Idaho" from Lisa Tyler, Student Companion to Ernest Hemingway Greenwood Press, Westport, CT. 2001. See page 14. Stumps 10:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW ... the article states that it was Hemingway's father who used the pistol. Stumps 10:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The shotgun he used to kill himself was a 12 bore Boss & Co Side by Side Shotgun

[edit] Hemingway's Catholicism

"Hemingway divorced Hadley Richardson and married Pauline Pfeiffer in 1927. Because of his Roman Catholic faith, some conflicts of conscience arose, but these were eventually overcome." -- This quotation is somewhat misleading. Hemingway was raised Congregationalist; his family were descended from New England Puritan stock. Hemingway did not convert to Roman Catholicism until he married Pauline Pfeiffer, who was RC. Hemingway's subsequent divorces would indicate that his devotion to the faith was irregular at best.

- A small clarificaion on your comment: Hemingway was raised Episcopalian, not Congregationalist. His father's family was Congregationalist, but her grew up in his maternal grandfather's, where the active religion was Episcopalian since Hemingway's grandfather, Ernest Hall, had immigrated to the US from England. (His paternal grandparents were also English immigrants but were not members of the Church of England.) Due to the infludence of Ernest Hall and Grace Hall Hemingway, Ernest was raised in a fairly religious Episcopalian family that sung hymns every morning, attended church regularly, etc. Young Hemingway sang in the church choir, as did all of his siblings, as it was led by his mother!

Fabricationary

[edit] Category: Ernest Hemingway?

Should Ernest Hemingway recieve his own category? --Blue387 09:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now that he did, should we move all other categories to that category? Common Man 09:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 49 stories

I added a section about the Forty-Nine Stories which, strangely, was not present. Yet english is not my native language and maybe you want to include minor grammatical corrections or links. Please note that I took an entirely different standpoint than those that the contributors who wrote the other parts of the article did, and that was a bit too focused, at times, on irrelevancies. My assumption is that when you write about a writer, you ought to love him/her, not to be _too_ diffident of him/her, or focused only on the critics, leaving the good things as residual trailers. That's not a good formula to let a writer be known by those who may not know him/her yet. --UnitedScripters

[edit] 49 Stories

I'm sorry, I felt I should delete much of the section on the short stories. The language was simply too confused (and confusing).

[edit] 49 stories

To me it is fine, only you have deleted so much that it is no longer recognizable: what you have done is not to make my commentary less "confused and confusing": what you have done is bringing down the level of the section dedicated to the 49 stories to the level of this whole page about Hemingway, which not even one single commentator here missed to qualify as unidsputably low and unworthy of wilkipedia.

We do not know whom you are but if you are the person who took care of this page, you have made by GENERAL CONSENSUS such inferior a job here, that you are the least qualified to edit contributions, especially because you seem to find gossip more relvant than serious observations. Your idea of "confusing and confused" means this: confusing, namely whatever doesn't vilify Hemingway with absurd prattle, and confused namely whoever doesn't fit your limited intellectual scope which, clearly enough, gets lost as soon as a speech goes beyond the scope of the grunt.

I didn't dare delete your own essays about Hemingway, I just ADDED my own section. I see you dared much more, though dwelling in much lower intellectual places...

Rest assured anway, while you are about to delete this comment by me too as it becomes you, that it is not one section of yours that needs to be ameneded here, but it is this WHOLE page about Hemingway that should be trashed and recycled as confusing and confused.

The moon suggests, before commenting on Hemingway be sure you have read him and understood him, for the only thing that emerges from your "essay" about Hemingway is, I insit by GENERAL consensus as these commentaries prove, that you know about Hemingway as much as I know about nuclear physics: NOTHING. UnitedScripters

[edit] Major edit: June 11, 2005

I have been bold and made a major edit today, one that I've been working on for some time. It was largely organizational and for cleaning purposes, something this article needed badly.

I'm not entirely finished with everything I want to do with the edit, but I think its status now in format and rendering is thoroughly improved. --DanielNuyu 06:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well done! Mandel 17:49, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Dangerous Summer

I'm no expert on Hemingway but a cursive look at internet sources showed that The Dangerous Summer was written for the Life Magazine in 1960 but it was published in book form in 1985.

[edit] iceberg method

Hi, I didn't find anything about Hemingway's famous "iceberg method" of writing. You can read about it for example here [1] , we learned it at school and I find it very be¨neficial for understanding what makes his work so special.

"Many believe it was Hemingway's unique writing style that made him famous. Hemingway himself described it as the "iceberg method" (Wilson). About 1/8 of an iceberg is actually visible above water while 7/8 is below water. On the surface, his writing seems simple, but 7/8 of the story is under the simple surface."


from page http://www.ncteamericancollection.org/litmap/hemingway_ernest_id.htm

If you think this is worth of contribution, let me know at my discussion page. Or contribute it yourself, it might be better if native speaker (who has actually read his books) contributes it:) Thanks! --Paxik 13:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Headline funkiness

Something odd was going on, and the Table of Contents was followed by the Headline "Headline" twice in a row. I deleted one and renamed the other to "Background," but feel free to change it.

Hmmm Forgot to logon. This is me.

[edit] Odd Grammar and Syntax

It would seem from the odd syntax, word usage and grammar that some Native Spanish speaker is inserting/deleting sections on Hemingway's relationships with the extreme left...

[edit] spanish civil war

Does any one know anything about Ernest Hemingway’s involvement in the spanish civil war?129.96.120.254 02:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

See new additions El Jigüe 12-23-05

tell me how i do this


[edit] Cuba did not confiscate US Property

The US unlike Canada for example refused to accept payments offerd by Cuba !!!

[edit] Abercrombie & Fitch

I've heard the story a few places (including edited out sections here) that the gun Hemingway shot himself with was purchased at Abercrombie & Fitch. Can anyone confirm or clearly refute this? And before you just say that's utterly ridiculous, check out Fitch's history, up until the late '80s they were a sporting goods store. It was a perfectly good place to buy a gun. Zaklog 05:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It's true, but I don't have a source ATM

[edit] Faulkner Rivalry

Something simply must be said about Hemmingway's rivalry with William Falkner. My literature class emphisized this rilvalry, though did not go into many specifics on it.

I disagree. Hemingway is notorious for having rivalries with practically every writer of his era. Even if he didn't have an actual personal argument with someone as he did with Stein, Fitzgerald, Dos Passos,...he rarely if ever praised the work of other authors, and infact in my opinion went out of his way to trash just about everyone's writing. The only writer I know that he praised AND NEVER CHANGED HIS TUNE ABOUT is Knut Hamsun. The article says he admires Isak Dinesen, but I had not heard that except from this article.Saucybetty 01:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hemingway article could once again become featured

Hemingway was known for an economy of words. He would write something and then go back through it and distill it down to its essence. There are a lot of great thoughts and concepts in this article; however, someone needs to pay tribute to Hemingway by doing same. Hokeman 17:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alcoholism

I would like to see a section on this or for it to be integrated into the article. Alcohol played a significant part in Hemingway's life. Fitzgerald was also a lifelong alcoholic and it arguably affected his work and life. It definatly played a role in Hem's twilight years and suicide. Rizla 03:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] advertising?

When talking about Michael Palin's book

"The book is available at his website"

sounds like hidden advertising to me

feel free to disagree

[edit] Another Rewrite?

Thre is some very good stuff in this article, but is very obviously the product of several authors. There is repetition some odd chronology. This is easy for me to say however as I am not the chap qualified to do it.... Epeeist smudge 11:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


ive tried to fix the chronology & style of the first half of the article as best as I can. When I get around to it i'll edit the last part.. hopefully some others will want to help out. Once that is done I think it will be ready for feature status Rizla 23:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

where is the nobel prize succession box?

[edit] Sources in text?

Hey, someone did a great job of giving sources. Only problem is it's in the text and not at the end of the page, and for some reason I can't figure out what goes where with it. (My brain refuses to work today.) That may need to be fixed... It takes up a lot of room, and could easily be moved by someone who currently has a fully functioning brain. Darned allergies... Russia Moore 02:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gertrude Stein

It says that Gertrude Stein critized Hemingway, saying that he copied her style as weel as Sherwood Anderson's. But it also says that Gertrude Stein was his mentor...

[edit] Vandalized

WTF "Heavy alcholoism and CRACK ADDICTION"???

[edit] Good Article?!

Nominated as a Good Article? That's insane. This is a woefully inadequate article with large portions missing and no coherency in relation to time. It jumps around so much it's difficult to find a specific bit of information... Needs to be improved and I don't have the information to improve it, as evidenced by the fact that I came to this article in the first place...

Please, someone: help! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Demonesque (talk • contribs).

What are the large portions missing? What section(s) don't follow the timeline? If you could offer some more constructive advice.. I would be happy to help fix it. Rizla 15:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Height

ARe you sure he was six foot? I remember reading, in a biogrpahy, that Scott Fitzgerald (who was five foot eight) was six inches shorter than him.

He was shorter by a couple of inches than Gary Cooper, was was either 6'3" or 6'2 1/2".

[edit] "Catholic" view of suicides going to Hell

This not a Catholic view, see Catechism of the Catholic Church #2283. As a general rule, the Church never officially condemns any individual person as certainly in Hell, no matter what are the circumstances of their death. The fate of every soul is finally left up to the Mercy of God, who alone has the right to judge them (though some souls are revealed through the process of canonization as (along with many others) certainly in Heaven). It is even a Catholic hope that no one is in Hell (see CCC #1058 and the work of Hans Urs von Balthasar).

70.226.157.65 04:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)James Stanley

[edit] Add EH to the winners of the pulitzer prize category?

does anyone know how to do this?

[edit] Short story title markup

Is there a reason why the short story titles in this article are italicised, rather than bearing quotation marks as short story titles traditionally do in English (and as the Manual of Style recommends)? Didn't want to make a fairly significant change to the article before asking here if there'd been discussion about it before. Binabik80 16:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wives/Romances

As of my reading today there is no mention of his first wife Hadley Richardson. Pauline Pfeiffer is only mentioned as Pauline in the beginning of the article, not gaining a surname til the bottom of the page. Although Martha Gellhorn is mentioned there is no mention of Mary Walsh either. Seeing as Hemingway was famous for his marriages and affairs, I find it incredible that these women barely receive mention. I think this is because the article is not strong on chronological order, but focuses more on topics like "short stories", etc. Each woman and the life that she shared with Hemmingway helped to shape his art. His children except his son Patrick aren't even mentioned in the article (and patrick doesn't even make an appearance til the bottom of the page)...some how he had grandchildren Mariel and Margaux with out engendering their parents? This article needs MAJOR reworking, and not just on these points. saucybetty 14:18, September 16, 2006 (UTC)

I took a long break from this article and now have came back to find an entire section of life in france and Hemingway's early life from 1918-1935ish completely deleted from the article. I will go back and search through the edits but this is ridiculous that it got removed. Rizla 23:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Upon further inspection it looks like it was vandalism from SEPTEMBER 7. It has been restored.Rizla 23:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Rizla, the article looks fantastic! It's like night and day from when I first posted the complaint. I think the format is much easier to read. I don't know if these are all your changes but I just wanted to say thanks.Saucybetty 01:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Early Life

Some revisions need to be done on this part. I know some of this is vandalism but I know very little about Hemingway so I'm not sure if he actually had a condition and this is just written sloppy or if the entire thing about his ears is made up.

Ernest Hemingway was born on July 21, 1899, in Oak Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. As a little boy they called him elephant ears because of his condition. he was ridiculed extensivly and claimed that from age 6 to 15 he cried himself to sleep. He began as a highway man who got in cars to eat people. He loved cows.

Deep tendu 00:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Ernest Hemingway

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Shot

An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28. has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway.

There is a new analysis of this story and Hemingway / Castro relationships posted by a friend of mine at [2]. El Jigue 12-9-06 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 (talk) 20:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Another mention of Hemingway

In the Family Guy Movie "Stewie Griffith, The Untold Story" the dog Brian is shown in heaven chatting with Kurt Cobain, Ernest Hemingway, and Vincent Van Gogh, all of whom shot themselves. Brian provides comic relief when he says that he got in the trash can and ate some chocolate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.15.245.78 (talk) 06:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

See, that's worth a mention. I was bothered by some 12 year old girl mentioning that Pete Wentz named his dog after Hemmingway, and talks about him on his online blog. How is that fucking relevant??? Someone with the ability, please remove it.

[edit] Review for re-promoting to featured article status?

Diff between current article and the article as it stood in June of 2004, when Wikipedia:Featured Article status was revoked. [3]

The article has been largely rewritten since its demotion. Someone care to point out specific reasons why the article should not be promoted back to featured article status? Be nice to see it listed here reasonably soon: Wikipedia:Former_featured_articles#Former_featured_articles_that_have_been_re-promoted. MrZaiustalk 00:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The first step should be WikiProject Biography/Peer review, IMO. -Fsotrain09 18:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] distasteful description of suicide

I find the line "he committed suicide by way of shotgun to the face" in the first paragraph and later in the suicide paragraph to be excessive and distasteful. Were it changed to "he committed suicide by way of shotgun" I think that anyone that cares how he shot himself would understand that he did it in the face. This line made me immediately think this article to be of low quality. Jon-emery 15:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC) (J. Emery Hemingway)

At first, I disagreed with you, but after careful consideration, I think that you are right. The current edit is better. Firewall62 (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think it's enough to say "...committed suicide with a shotgun" and leave it at that. The prepositional bits "by way of shotgon" or "in the face" are (at best) wordy and at worst redundant and salacious. Geeman 01:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Dreiser?

How was Theodore Dreiser an influence on Hemingway, as the infobox says he was? Don't get me wrong; I enjoy them both, but their styles (both in terms of actual words and sentences, and the stories being told) are almost complete opposites.

[edit] Castro-Hemingway (moved from article)

He also lost Finca Vigía [4], his estate outside Havana, Cuba that he had owned for over twenty years, and was forced to go into exile in Ketchum, Idaho, when the conflict in Cuba began to escalate. Hemingway was under surveillance by the American government for his residence and activities in Cuba.

Image:Hemingway und Castro.jpg
Hemingway and Castro shake hands; 1959. This image is discussed by Lynn (2005)

An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway [5].

I don't think the source for this section can count as a reliable source in Wikipedia terms. The section is only sourced with a blogspot devoted specifically and solely to proving that "Castro-Hemingway-not-friends" (as its name goes) or that "hemingway-castro-foes"(as the web address is called). The author is obviously not a Hemingway expert, he is an "original researcher", working on his own with documents and sources. He apparently opposes mainstream biographers in some respects - for example, he criticises Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death, and goes as far as to imply that Hemingway was driven into suicide by Castro's confiscation of his estate! So I believe that if info about this is to be included, it should be from mainstream biographies rather than blogspots, forum postings or anything of that sort. --91.148.159.4 15:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

i've restored the section with better sources from pbs and a biography page Rizla 19:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, but note that these sources don't say the same thing. (In fact, the biography page says almost the reverse as far as Hemingway's relations with Castro are concerned). So I've changed the text somewhat. --91.148.159.4 14:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


In response, although I know that Larry Daley the author of that piece has read Hemingway extensively there is no claim to that he has expertise Hemingway literature (he is professor emeritus at Oregon State University [1]. However, with respect to Cuba that is a completely different kettle of fish, for Larry Daley a descendent of Major General Calixto Garcia has written extensively on Cuban history and is veteran of the War Against Batista in the Sierra Maestra.


In addition readers should know that Manolo Castro is widely believed to have been murdered by Fidel Castro (the two Castros were not related), Manolo or more correctly Manuel Castro was Minister of Sports in Cuba (in a democratically elected and non-Batista influenced administration) and was such a close friend of Hemingway, that he permitted the E.H. to referee an important boxing match in the old Palacio de los Deportes (which is where the so called Plaza de la Revolucion (originally built by the Dictator Batista as La Plaza Civica, and precisely where the statue to General Garcia stands today). Manolo Castro was known to have been very honest that is why Hemingway (in "The Shot") mentions he had but a few coins in his pocket when he was killed.


Batista in his second dictatorship, then built a second Palacio de los Deportes, where among other events Daley was held prisoner by Castro, along with some of the 300,000 Cubans that were arrested during the Bay of Pigs invasion. BTW Daley does not criticize "Jeffrey Meyers for claiming that the estate was confiscated after Hemingway's death" but agrees with Meyers. Daley also does not allege that Hemingway's suicide is caused singly by the loss of La Vigia. One should also take into account Hemingway’s reporting during the Spanish Civil War, when he was friends with Herbert Matthews and broke friendship with John Dos Passos, to understand the full disillusionment that Hemingway felt at that time. The FBI’s interest in Hemingway was caused by his relationships with Spanish Civil War exiles/veterans who were involved with him during WWII; and had suddenly reappeared when Castro gained power; among them were Enrique Lister, who Hemingway makes allusion to in “For Whom the Bell Tolls.” Also reappearing at that time in Cuba were the Italian assassin and Senator Vittorio Vitale (Comandante Contreras in Spain), Alberto Bayo, and Francisco Ciutat de Miguel; some or all of these were known to Hemingway for the murderous killers they were. Thus it is suggested that that before any decision is made to remove this mention again, that the Daley piece [2] which contains an annotated version of all pertinent parts of "The Shot" be read. One should also note that this view of “The Shot” (as noted in the Daley piece) is not original to Daley but to a number others before him.


Thus I have inserted:

The official Cuban government account is that it was left to the Cuban government, which has made it into a museum devoted to the author. [3] This would make the Hemingway property unique among all other US property confiscated at that time. Joel Millman in The Wall Street Journal estimates that that “Castro regime today takes in at least $500,000 a year through the franchise…” [4]. An infrequently discussed story: Hemingway, Ernest 1951 The Shot. True the men’s magazine. April 1951. pp. 25-28 has been long known to define relationships between Castro and Hemingway, very strongly suggests that Hemingway, used an unnamed character as a “Black-face beard” to narrate the 1948 murder of his friend “Manolo” Castro by Fidel Castro [5].


I suggest that critics read the “The shot” before eliminating this topic; and then rather than removing contribute other citations to this effect. El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding a Link To Ernest Hemingway

Hello,

I have a non-commercial blog on Ernest hemingway's Paris years. It roughly follows A Moveable Feast - the content if not the exact chronology. It is still being added to and improved.

It is: [6]

I wonder if it could be included in the notes at the end of the Hemingway article.
Thank you,
Paul E. Stolle Nikon101 03:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
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