Talk:Eritrean-Ethiopian War

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Contents

[edit] Article name

Should this article be renamed "Ethiopia-Eritrea Border War"? Ground Zero 19:26, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


This article is part of the "Wars of Africa" set of articles nominated for Version 0.7. Discuss this nomination, or see the set nominations page for more details.


No. The name used in the "References" and most of the "External lins" is "Eritrean-Ethiopian War" Philip Baird Shearer 08:39, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. Particularly since border regions are just the setting for the war; the reasons for and conduct of the war are more complex and involve more than just territory.

[edit] Notes

I have added a few footnotes but the text needs a lot more work in this area. Most of it will involve finding the relevant external link for a particular statement and moving it into the note section. Because of the way that Wikipedia:footnote3 works if a reference is used as a footnote in more than one place it is necessary to place the same reference twice into the notes section. Philip Baird Shearer 09:39, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties ?

The casualty figures ? Ethiopia suffered 10x the casualties of Eritria ? I find that hard to imagine, trench-warfare usualy involves a more even distribution of death. Are there any sources ?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.68.95.200 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point I have done a quick Google on [Ethiopia lost 123,000] it returns "about 378 English pages for Ethiopia lost 123,000". One site which suggests that these are speculative is a blog site with two persons arguing over them [1] [2]. However this site for The Somaliland Times reporduces an article from the The Economist Intelligence Unit (10/25/2005 EIU ViewsWire Ethiopia) with "123,000 Ethiopians killed, principally in the two major assaults in February-June 1999 and May-June 2000". I do not have access the the EUI and this article would need to be checked for authenicity. This page links to an article by the FT reporting the same number, quoting as a source: BBC Monitoring Service. This website gives a breakdown of the Eritrean numbers and this BBC article confirms that Eritrean government has put out this figure.

--Philip Baird Shearer 17:55, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Given the uncertainty of the casualties, I'm wondering if that info should even be provided in the War box as opposed to being explained below. The Eritrean figure was given by a government source, but the Ethiopian figure is unverifiable right now and seems out of proportions (most number give total casualties for both sides as 70-100,000, usually 70k or 80k). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 06:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, since the Ethiopian Government has not revealed a count of the war dead at the very least an approximation of the deaths should be provided. If an approximation would be provided it should least Ethiopian losses between 51,000-123,000.
I guess that works. I'll do that and put a superscripted note that links to a quick explanation of the casualty numbers. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 16:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


Yom, could you make sure to just put a reference for the 51K number. Just so that everything is properly referenced.--Merhawie 19:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yom, the Ethiopian casualty figures are Eritrean propaganda. It was first reported by a radio station by an Ethiopian opposition group operating out of Eritrea. It was part of the group that was led by Abraham Yayeh. He has since parted his way with Eritrea and now lives in Sweden.

The 19,000 Eritrean casualty figures were the number given by the Eritrean leader without any additional evidence. It is not possible to take that at face value for the following reasons:

1. First, and most importantly, Eritrea is a closed society. There is no free press and access to outsiders, even to diplomats, is extremely limited.

2. Second, unlike those killed in the liberation war whose name was published, the 1998-2000 war casualties has been kept secret. It is mostly probable those 19,000 were those from urban areas.

--DHM1 17:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

DHM1, you are incorrect about the casualty figures for Eritrea. Actually the name, location/date of death and unit is recorded and was leaked. Also, about the Ethiopian figures, since the only figures we actually have are those cited should we not keep those and note the caveats in the "notes" section? --Merhawie 17:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incomplete sentence in The War section

The last sentence of the fifth paragraph in the section labelled The War ("While also lending support to various Eritrean rebel groups including a group known as the Eritrean Islamic Jihad. ") is incomplete. I'm not certain who is being referred to, so I won't try to correct it myself.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cerowyn (talk • contribs) 21:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Talk page comments can be signed with ~~~~ and wikipedia will automagically turn them into a signature with a time stamp

I hope that is clearer, but the sentence probably needs a rewrite --Philip Baird Shearer 23:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MILHIST Assessment

Thanks for a solid, informative article. The introduction is solid and concise, and the background section explains quite nicely the causes and events leading up to the war. As someone who, admittedly, had no prior knowledge of these events, I'd say overall the article is very well-written. There are lots of wikilinks, a good detailed description of the arbitration and aftermath, and an extensive set of external links. I'm also fond of the inclusion of the countries' flags in the infobox. As for improvements, the main things that stick out to me are the lack of a picture in the infobox, the "Unknown"s under Commanders, and the lack of a campaignbox. It would appear from your description that much of the fighting involved non-governmental militant groups such as the Oromo Liberation Front. So, the situation is more complex than simply that of two nations fighting one another directly. Nevertheless, if we do not have available the names of commanders or generals on the ground, can we not include the names of the heads of state of Ethiopia and Eritrea? It'd be better than Unkown, to my mind. And as for the campaignbox, that depends entirely on whether or not the war can be broken down into specific named battles, and whether or not any of these battles are significant enough to have entire articles on them. So, I leave that up to you as well. It is not necessary. Sorry to go on for so long not saying much... Overall, a nice solid effort. Thanks. LordAmeth 21:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The non-governmental troops were mainly secondary and not important in the actual war, but important in its causes and reasons for its prolongation. Can you explain what exactly made it seem as if they were prominent so that I can look at it? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess I just mis-read it. In the section where you first mention the Oromo Liberation Front, I thought I had gotten the impression that much of the fighting was between these non-governmental rebel groups. Serves me right for skimming and not really reading through. Sorry. LordAmeth 17:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology of Prewar events

[edit] Path to war

In April 1997 the Deputy Administrator of the Gash-Barka Region of Eritrea and Vice President of the Tigray Region of Ethiopia hold a meeting to discuss cross-border issues. The village of Badme is located in these regions. Three months later in July 1997, Ethiopian soldiers and militia enter disputed territories between the two countries. Local Eritrean administrative structures are dissolved and replaced with an Ethiopian administration.

High level conversations between Eritrean and Ethiopian administrators led to an exchange of letters between the President of Eritrea, Isaias Afewerki, and the Prime Minister of Ethiopia, Meles Zenawi. The following are excerpts from this exchange:

"It cannot be said that the border between our two countries is demarcated clearly although it is known traditionally. Be this as it may, there have been intermittent disputes in the border areas arising form different and minor causes. Local officials have been striving to defuse and solve these problems amicably. However, the forcible occupation of Adi Murug by your army in the past few days is truly saddening. I...urge you to personally take the necessary prudent action so that the measure that has been taken will not trigger unnecessary conflict."(President of Eritrea to Prime Minister of Ethiopia dispatched on August 16, 1997)[1]
"We believe we can ease the tension concerning the borders on the basis of the understanding reached previously between your team and our colleague (Tewolde). Perhaps, it is also necessary to settle the border demarcation issue after the necessary preparations are carried out by both sides."(Prime Minister of Ethiopia to President of Eritrea)[1]
"Regarding the situation in the border areas, my information establishes that the measures taken at Adi Murug were not in areas that are undisputed but in our own areas and by expelling our officials and dismantling the existing administration. In order to expediently check any further deterioration and pave the way for a final solution, we have assigned on our part three officials (Defence Minister Sebhat Ephrem; PFDJ Head of Political Affairs, Yemane Ghebreab; and National Security Advisor, Abraha Kassa) I suggest that you also similarly (or in ways you think best) assign officials so that both sides can meet as soon as possible to look into these matters."(President of Eritrea to Prime Minister of Ethiopia dispatched on August 25, 1997)[1]

In Fall of 1997, following the issue of a new map of Tigray by the Ethiopian Mapping Authority [2], Ethiopian troops were deployed to the Bure front. On 6 May 1998 Ethiopian troops fired on an Eritrean military patrol near Badme. Subsequently on May 13, 1998 the Parliament of Ethiopia and Council of Ministers issued a resolution demanding, "...the unconditional and immediate withdrawal of Eritrean forces..."[3] The following day the Eritrean Government called for peace and invited neutral parties to examine the circumstances leading to the incident of May 6.[4]



Yom, good point, I will take on the rewrite, thanks for pointing that out!--Merhawie 23:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

There have recently been edits by an IP that have repeatedly added copyrighted material (from dehai) into the article, as well as plenty of POV. I recommend that we discuss any and all significant changes or changes that could be controversial on the talk page before changing the text of the article. I have removed the copyrighted material and fixed some awkward wording. I also uncapitalized "final and binding" (incorrect grammar) and put it in quotation marks to show that it is not our words. Since the final and binding nature is made clear in the sentence 2 sentences before it, I removed the adjectives "final and binding" from the sentence regarding Ethiopia's rejection of the ruling, as it is unnecessary, and to stress it would be POV (which applies to stressing anything in the article). — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Merhawie, please post it here before incorporating it on the article page. The chronology is from an Eritrean perspective and therefore has POV if incorporated as is. Even if the wording is made neutral, the events it chooses to incorporate and chooses not to are important. Once you post it here, I'll add some more events to try to balance it out, and then we can discuss which events merit inclusion and which do not. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


Yom, check this out, edit to your delight, or add sources (I put it at the top so we can discuss below it)--Merhawie 00:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Needs some rewriting for grammar and the like, but okay on the first part, with some reservations. For one, it should specify that "disputed territories" refers to Addi Murug, as otherwise it makes it seem as if it's referring to Badme. Secondly, it doesn't describe the incident in enough detail, as (from Dagmawi) the action was against the Eritrean liberation front ARDUF, was already announced, and was coordinated with the Eritrean Army. A mention that no fighting took place is probably helpful. According to Dagmawi, no evidence of Eritrean administration of the region has been presented, however. There should also be mention of the 14 November 1997 meeting in Asmara that decided that the status quo should be kept until the issue was permanently resolved. Regarding the second half, the description of events in 1998 is too short. For one, there's no mention of the May 8th meeting scheduled in March to discuss border issues. Regarding the 6 May issue, the wording is a bit misleading. It should specify that the patrol entered the disputed Badme area (then under Ethiopian control) before being fired on by Ethiopian police, as it was not simply near the area. I've also read that the police reminded the troops to leave before the fight and that it was the Eritrean soldiers who opened fire first; what do your sources state? Discussion of the 8 May meeting should be included as well, such as the agreement that Eritrean troops should leave Badme, the status quo be upheld until a final decision (reaffirming the November talks) and the scheduling of another meeting for two months later in Asmara. Your second part also completely ignores the movement of Eritrean troops into the Badme region and the undisputed Shiraro region on 12 May. I do not believe the 13 May resolution declared war, actually, but rather condemned the agression and demanded a withdrawal. See here for more chronology details. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 00:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
As I said, edit to your hearts content and we can add sources as they become available. If you see something missing add it. Also remember however that ARDUF is not an Eritrean liberation front, or one supported by Eritrea. It is an Ethiopian organization.--Merhawie 15:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's Ethiopian. It's an (former?) Afar organization promoting the separation of Southeastern Eritrea to be merged with the Autonomous Ethiopian Afar Region. I'm not quite sure if it further proposes the secession of this state from Ethiopia or not. Either way, we can simply describe it's affiliation rather than whether it's "Ethiopian" or "Eritrean." — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


Whatever, you say, though it probably should have its own stub or article instead of being described in this article. Note the following site (its where I understood it to be Ethiopian):http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ARDUF

[edit] Caption for infobox photo?

There's no caption or explanation as to what's displayed in the infobox photo. --NEMT 07:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for this?

The war was famously likened to, 'two bald men fighting over a comb.' The governments of both countries are widely accused of using the conflict as a basis for suppressing internal dissent.

Who famously likened the war to two bald men fighting over a comb? What is the source for the claim that the governments of both countries used the war as an excuse to supress internal dissent? Are there multiple sources for this, considering the claim is made that this claim is widely made? --Kieran Bennett 03:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Er...I'm not sure, but I know Ruth Iyob makes reference to this in one of her publications, so it's not made up. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 22:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Not quite correct Yom. Ruth Iyob was refering to an article in the Financial Times which had described it has such. The comment however is as irrelevant to the article as similar comments (e.g. "senseless border conflict"). In fact the comment has been used in describing many other conflicts and is not unique to this conflict. The Financial times article was published on 1998-05-21. I hope this helps. --Merhawie 22:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I know she didn't coin it. I was saying that the phrase was definitely one that has been used before, and used her citation of it as an example. That information is useful, however. It's good to know the original source. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background

The following was added by MarkSwansonReporter, I moved it here to discuss. I am actually quite on the wall for this addition.

A number of cultrul factors also came into play in this war, which was never reported, it was the complex relationshiop that can broadly be called cultural. One could be described as a question of perception.The EPLF had given training and soccour to the TPLF in its early stages and tended to treat the movement as its younger brother. Ordinary Tigrians not involved in politics of the Front also felt patronised by Eritreans. They hade for many hears taken low paid, low status jobs in Eritrea as casual labrourers and domestic servants. Tigrians were denigrated as Agames-a term that implied that they were all uncouth peasants. Most of the Tigrians were working in Eritrea were hired as labrouers. Some got work slaughtering farm animals, while others took up jobs such as woodcutters, potters and shepherds. Women were hired as waitresses, housemaids and washer-women. Many prostitutes in Asmara were Tigrians. Eritreans on the other hands used their skills and capital to buy into or build up business in Ethiopia. Class, privileges, snobbery and envy were unspoken elements that ate away at the relationship the fronts and were one of the hidden elements that egnited and fuled the border war.[5]

Still not quite sure about it. --Merhawie 20:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Come on, that's blatant POV that has nothing to do with the true causes of the war. It's pure speculation. While background should be given, it should be facts and information, not subjective stereotypes. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 20:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Though I do not doubt the subjectivity, and the fact that is an argument based solely on stereotypes, I have heard the argument before. In this case it is repeated by a BBC reporter (not this lends the argument any more credence) and should perhaps be included only to provide all the perspectives...but again, like I said earlier, I am very much on the wall about it... --Merhawie 20:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yom, this is blatant Eritrean lie. Please give me a few days. I will get you hard evidence, including an extensive research by a British University professor for the cause of the war. The main cause of the war was Eritrean frustration in its ability to stand by itself after Ethiopia started limiting its access to its economy. Ethiopia demanded all trades exchanges other that minor border trade under2 2,000 Birr be conducted in hard currency. In addition, Ethiopia started closing illegal business that was being opened using Eritrean living in Ethiopia as front which even included a bank.

At the same time, the Eritreans were resentful at the development that was going on in Tigray. They saw that as a threat to their economy. Less than a year before the war, senior Eritrean officials including the president visited these factories, specifically the Mesebo Cement and Mesfin Industrial in Mekele and Addis Pharmaceutical in Adigrat. The first attack ordered was to destroy those plants. Here is the news report from Associated Press and Times of London on the issue. [3] [4]

Additional point I would like to make is, the Eritreans unable to destroy an targets launched attacks targeting innocent civilians. On June 5, 1998, the Eritreans targeted the north central part of Mekele where there is no military target resulting in deaths of 43 children and wounding of hundreds. That Eritrea's intentions were deliberate was confirmed four days later when Eritrean air force commander, Habtezion Hadgu, was quoted by the AP as saying ``This is tit for tat -- one to 100, that's the exchange rate." (Reuters, June 9, 1998).

During the proceedings of the claims commission, Eritrea refused to cooperate or answer any questions to the attack on the civilians in Mekele. The commission, after noting Eritrea's refusal to cooperate, found Eritrea liable and ordered it to pay compensation to all the victims. It is well documented in the following document. [5]

--DHM1 17:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

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