Talk:Eric of Pomerania

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[edit] Portrait

The caricature is contemporary (I believe the full picture also features a Byzantine Emperor and, if I remember correctly, the Holy Roman Emperor). Do we have any information about the Polish portait and its age? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 23:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Union arms

Twthmoses rightly identifies the three crowns in Eric's union arms as representing the Kalmar Union, and not Sweden. But he objects to the idea that the dividing cross also refers to this union. We will probably never know for sure, but it is very likely 'not' a Dannebrog cross, which would only refer to one of the three kingdoms of this union. The Dannebrog cross appearing in later greater arms of Denmark-Norway is usually shown with fimbriated edges in order to identify it expressly as derived from the flag, with a white cross on a red field. The cross in Eric's union seal is more likely the red cross of the flag that he unsuccessfully tried to adopt for the Kalmar union. That theory has been advocated by the well-known Danish expert on heraldry, Nils G. Bartholdy. See his article: "De tre kroner og korset. Unionssymbolik, ambition og rivalitet", in: Heraldisk tidsskrift, 76 (1997), pp. 233-260. More on the flag of Norden in the FOTW article http://flagspot.net/flags/xn_nordn.html.

The Kalmar union flag had a red cross on a yellow field. The colours were possibly chosen because they were those of the only hereditary kingdom, Norway. On a statue depicting Karl VIII of Sweden, also king of Norway for some years, he is shown carrying the union arms of Sweden and Norway, quartered by a red cross with gold fimbriation. This cross is presumed to be the same "Nordic" cross, appropriated from the Kalmar union arms, probably to demonstrate Karl's claim to be the rightful ruler of that union.

Roede 14:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is that statue located? I'd like to know more about it. For what it is worth, Danish heraldist Erling Svane describes both the seal and another of Eric's arms from a church bench from Kirkebø (Faroes), in one of his books. In the case of Kirkebø, he describes the cross as the Dannebrog cross due to its fimbriation. This symbol is not identical to his seal depicted here since the Kirkebø arms contains the following symbols: 1st quarter: three uncrowned lions (Denmark); 2nd quarter: three crowns (Sweden?); 3rd quarter: three leopards (England. Queen Philippa was English); 4th quarter: Norway. All divided by a fimbriated cross carrying an escutcheon featuring the arms of Pomerania. In this case, he identifies the cross as the Dannebrog. (Erling Svane (1994): Det danske Rigsvåben og Kongevåben, Odense University Press, pp. 77-79). The flag conquered by Lübeck in 1427 and destroyed 1942, showed the arms of Denmark, Sweden (three crowns), Norway and Pomerania divided by a white cross, and with two red square tails, so this too must have been a (rather unusual) Dannebrog. Svane seems to be in two minds regarding the cross in the union seal depicted here. On the one hand, the entire chapter about these arms begins with Efter at tre-løve-våbenet havde været de danske kongers våben i mere end 200 år, fandt Erik af Pommern på at firdele sit våben med dannebrogskorset således, at der kunne anbringes 4 - og med et hjerteskjold - 5 forskellige skjoldmærker i det derved opståede sammensatte våben., but his blazon of the seal merely states Korsdelt skjold med hjerteskjold .... The theory about the fimbriation is interesting though, I'd never really thought about that aspect before. Most likely we will never know for sure unless somebody actually rediscovers a coloured mural in a church. Alas, such chances are pretty low. His arms preserved on Krogen is in very bad shape. In this case, the cross is not described except that "a small red animal" is identified as the remains of an escutcheon with the Pomeranian arms. The probability of errors is naturally very high, given that the arms is in poor shape and might have been repainted. This combined arms is - again - different than the rest with the four quarters occupied by Denmark, three crowns (Sweden?), Norway, and Schleswig.

Regarding the four quarters on the seal, I can only agree that the three crowns must represent the Union, while the Folkung lion represents Sweden. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 20:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The statue of Karl Knutsson Bonde is located at Gripsholm castle in Sweden. It is a wooden statue, carved by the well-known sculptor and painter Bernt Notke from Pomerania. His most famous work is St. George and the Dragon in Storkyrkan of Stockholm, in memory of Sten Sture's victory at Brunkeberg in 1471. Even though Notke's statue of king Karl was carved long after the dissolution of the short-lived union between Sweden and Norway, he is depicted as king of both countries, carrying the union arms. The inescutcheon shows his family arms (Bonde), the main shield is quartered, with the Swedish arms in the first and fourth quarters, the Norwegian arms in the second and third. The cross deviding the shield is golden, with a rather narrov red stripe along the middle of each arm.

A good picture is to be found in volume 4, page 178 of Aschehoug's Norges historie, published in 1996 (editor: Halvard Bjørkvik).

I don't have Heraldisk tidsskrift at hand, but I seem to recall that Nils G. Bartholdy refers to the same statue of Karl Knutsson in his interesting article from 1997. I think that this article also shows Karl's arms from seals or coins of the period. As king of Sweden, his arms are quartered with three crowns and and the Folkunge lion. But as union king, his arms show Sweden and Norway quartered, divided by a fimbriated cross - surely the "Nordic" cross, and not Dannebrog. I think that this substantiates the theory that the cross of Eric's union arms is the same as in Karl's.

You may be interested in the following references, copied from the FOTW page on Norden:

Nils G. Bartholdy: "De tre kroner og korset. Unionssymbolik, ambition og rivalitet", in: Heraldisk tidsskrift, 76 (1997), pp. 233-260 Poul Grinder-Hansen: "Kalmarunionens flag", in: Nyt fra Nationalmuseet, 6 (1996), p. 6 Nils G. Bartholdy: "Kroner og kors som unionssymboler", in: Poul Grinder-Hansen (ed.): Unionsdrottningen: Margareta I och Kalmarunionen, Föreningen Norden: Stockholm, 1996, pp. 92-97

Roede 10:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The triple crown may have been used by the Union, but it predates the Union in its use in Sweden, such as its appearance in the seal of Albert of Sweden and continues today to have wide recognition as a Swedish symbol. That is why I identified the triple crown of the sinister chief quarter as representative of Sweden. My fix to the seal's description, however, was primarily geared toward putting things in the proper quarters, as the previous version had the quarters all mixed up. At least now we are properly identifying dexter and sinister, chief and base, as (anatomic) right and left, top and bottom, respectively. Wilhelm meis 20:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The arms of the dexter base quarter represents Sweden, not Norway. It is the older Swedish arms, called the Folkung lion, still present in the greater arms of Sweden. The Norwegian lion, with St. Olav's axe, is only found in the inescutchon. The use of this older Swedish arms might indicate that the three crowns of the sinister chief quarter should be interpreted as the Kalmar Union rather than Sweden. However, because the identification is uncertain, I have included both possibilities. Also, I have once more removed the unsubstantiated claim that the cross represents Dannebrog, the Danish flag. The cross arms are solid, without the fimbriation that is usually seen in later union arms of Denmark-Norway. The theory advocated by Bartholdy and others seems more plausible — that the cross is a symbol of the union, also found in the yellow and red flag that Erik introduced. (See my comment above of 13 December 2006). Since the meaning of the cross is still controversial, I find it better to omit both theories. Roede 14:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to be the devil's advocate. :) Later portrayals of the Danish(-Norwegian) flag can be an indicator but they are no certain proof. I will try to find a copy of Bartholdy's article, but AFAIK, documentation for a yellow-red union flag is still very sketchy. On the other hand, a flag conquered by Lübeck in 1427 was preserved in that city's St. Mary's Church until World War II [1]. This flag depicted the four main symbols from Eric's arms. The only symbol missing is the arms of Norway. This flag dates from his reign and since the cross is white and the tails are red, I think it is a safe conclusion that this well-documented flag was a Dannebrog. Another issue is that this image apparently dates from 1398. Again my information is sketchy, but isn't the "union flag" normally attributed to c. 1430? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Btw, I am aware that the page I linked to [2] does not consider this flag to be a Dannebrog but a union flag. It would obviously be a very unnormal Dannebrog, but given the colours I still think this is the best description. Danish heraldist Erling Svane describes this flag as "det ældste Dannebrogsflag fra 1427 med Erik af Pommerns våben" (Det danske Rigsvåben og Kongevåben, pp. 78-79.) Regards. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

True, the Kalmar Union flag is only known from two written sources - but they are quite clear about the shape and colours of the flag. According to the FOTW site, "it is described in two letters, both dating from the year 1430. In these letters, king Erik of Pomerania wrote to the priests of Vadstena and Kalmar instructing them to wear on their robes the banner of the realms (union), which were a red cross on a yellow field. Bartholdy is of the opinion that the red cross on a yellow field may have been a conscious choice as new and distinct flag for the union, based on a universal symbol, the cross, and taking the most significant colours from the arms of the three united kingdoms, primarily that of Norway as an inherited realm (king Erik of Pomerania inherited Norway in 1389, several years before being elected king of Denmark and Sweden), but the yellow field also from the arms of Sweden and Denmark at the time." Substantial proof in the shape of actually preserved flags or depictions thereof from that time would be something of a miracle.

I advise a visit to the tomb of Queen Margrethe in Roskilde Cathedral. I recall that her coat of arms is carved in marble, and that it is identical to that of Erik. If my memory serves me right, the cross is without the fimbriations associated with Dannebrog crosses.

The much reproduced but now lost flag of Lübeck is not a very reliable source, as the tinctures of the union arms are mixed up. The arms of Norway (in the lower quadrant near the hoist) shows the lion on a blue field. (Norway is not missing — the colour of the field has made you draw the wrong conlusion). In my opinion, only an act of strong faith can make one see it as a Dannebrog. True, the white cross is present, but in view of the fact that the colours are unreliable, how do we know that the creator of this flag knew the correct colour of the union cross? The most characteristic element, the red field, is missing. (The red "tail" of the flag must be regarded as a mere ornament. The colour is too far out of place to be interpreted as a reference to Dannebrog).

By the way, there is also scant evidence that Dannebrog was actually in common use at the time. Do we have any other evidence than the banner embellishing the arms of the King of Denmark in the Gelre armorial from about 1370? Can one infer from that piece of evidence that the Dannebrog was regarded as the "official" flag of the king or his kingdom?

I propose that we let the matter rest and keep the description in the article unchanged until we have studied the evidence more closely. Roede 23:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)