Talk:Ergot
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Can we NPOV the Jesus stuff a bit? DryGrain 21:05, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Actually, I think it needs major trimming and a complete rewrite. As it is now, it is an interpretation of some bible verses. That's somebody's personal idea about the meaning of these verses, not encyclopedic material. Lupo 07:14, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Isn't everything then a personal interpretation? How many references would you need till you accept the evidence? It should probably link to info that the water solution is the way to extract the survivable aspects (Hoffman, Wasson: Road to Elysium), which is information that could have easily reached Jesus and his pals. How about linking the Dead Sea Scrolls, John Alegre into it too? It’s interesting that he thinks Jesus was a movement rather than a person if you like we can make an openJesus or JesusDemystified page. Cause he was offering his living water and was always hanging around grain - the yearly cycle is also correct, the power to influence and focus energy, his sensitivity, profound insight... Too much evidence!
- Please sign your contributions. You can do so by adding ~~~~ at the end of your statements. As to your points: just because somebody interpretes some Bible passages in a certain way doesn't mean that his or her interpretation was "right" or even the only one possible. Bible interpretation is highly subjective, and different people come to different conclusions. Please do not advocate one particluar point of view in the article — we're trying to build an encyclopedia, which should report established facts in an unbiased way. Also note that the sheer length of this interpretation is disproportionate to the whole article. Lupo 08:41, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Concerning "living water": again, that this means "water that changes your life" and has a connection to ergot is just one point of view. It could also simply mean that water is essential for living. Don't forget that many regions in the area are and were arid or even deserts, so water naturally was a major concern. Lupo 09:14, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Talking about
Jesus Knowledge of Ergot and its Application:
Consider this evidence from the Book John Chapter 4:
In Verse 7 When Jesus asks a Samaritan woman for a drink he than says "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." We know that the only healthy way to use Ergot is in form of its water extract.
Then in Verse 31 when his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something." 32Jesus said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."
Some people may know that the experience of the effects of LSD like substances suppress immediate hunger.
And then from verse 35 on he points directly to the source of the aforementioned: "I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest." Affirming that it is something that can be harvested, but was not intentionally planted, and that it has the potential to make the sower and the reaper happy together.
We can also find references where Jesus and his disciples walk the fields collecting heads of grain (Matthew 12:1, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1). In all three references Jesus also implicates David and the consecrated bread that was carried in the sacred ark. This bread traces back to the miracle where the Israelites where finally let go from Egypt, after one night many unborn (often erroneously translated to first born) children died, which can be attributed to ergotism.
Jesus also identifiably refers to the consequences of ergotism, when he speaks of its effects today known as St. Anthony's fire, caused by the unsolvable Ergot Alkaloids, which lead to irreversible blood restriction in extremities, (Matthew 18:8, Mark 9:43) making it more advisable to amputate than suffer 'eternal fire'.
Please sign your comments. And I don't care how much evidence you present, we can't have articles including such marginal information. If we did, there would be page length additions to every article describing how "so-and-so is heavily mentioned in (insert religious or archaic text name here)", and a list of "interpretations". If you want, this information can be perhaps included, in a heavily reduced form, on Bible interpretation or something similar, and mabye referenced on this article in one or two sentences, without being POV. DryGrain 10:17, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I think the biblical interpretations have got to go. They are speculative at best, and innane at worst. Anyone who thinks references to gathering grain, rubbing it between your hands, then eating it is a metafor for drug consumption has likely never been on a grain farm. The refusal to eat later could much more simply be a matter of him being busy preaching at the time. Furthermore, I think the eternal fire references are much more likely about Gai-Ben-Hinnom rather than poison induced psychosis. Finally, rye was not commonly grown in the mediterranean area.
70.66.66.17 03:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the following passage from the article here because there are no references cited for these interpretations (which I consider very far fetched, not to say obscure). Cacycle 21:46, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Some passages in the Bible have been interpreted by some to refer to ergot or ergotism, such as e.g. John 4:31-32 (one of the effects of ergot alkaloids is to suppress immediate hunger). Other passages report Jesus and his disciples walking in fields collecting heads of grain (Matthew 12:1, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1). A possible interpretation of Mark 9:43 equates the reference to "hell fire" with St. Anthony's fire, although other interpretations considering the context of Mark 9:38-48 are more common, and the same is true for all the other cited passages.
[edit] lop
i was researching this for school, doing a project on witchcraft. I am just going along with whatever this says no matter how wrong.
[edit] Taxobox
I've added a taxobox for the genus Claviceps to this page. I figured this would be alright since "ergot" can refer to members of the genus besides C. purpurea. Is this correct? Does anyone have pictures of ergot that they would like to share? Mycota 07:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
___Very interesting, and the idea that psychedelics played a role in Biblical tales is feasable, but this information does not prove a strong connection.
[edit] Ergotamine and migraines
Should the use of ergotamine in migraines be mentioned in the article? Anchoress 15:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ergot vs. ergotamin
Is ergot and ergotamin the same thing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Samui (talk • contribs) 19:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Move to Claviceps
Support: The preferential title for articles on living organisms is the scientific name rather than the common name, particularly in cases where the common name is a synonym of a single discrete taxon, in this case Claviceps. Peter G Werner 04:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- In general, that is not the case. Dog for example. Rich Farmbrough, 23:25 6 January 2007 (GMT).
[edit] factual error re ergot/france/1951?
article says: "Most famously, ergot intoxicated a whole French village in 1951, at Pont-Saint-Esprit." However Psychedelics Encyclopedia (Peter Stafford, 3rd ed ISBN 0-914171-51-8) says this is erroneous and was actually caused by an organic mercury compound used to disinfect seeds (p90). thoughts? I can provide photocopy/fax of page on request. email <anom_aloc_arus(at)hotmail.com> (omit underscores) 213.122.30.207 00:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC) jan
