Talk:Epistle to the Romans

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I think there is probably a case for deleting the stuff about the "Romans Road". However, in case this is a well-known concept, I have moved it here to give others the opportunity for editing. Deb 19:44, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 NPOV dispute 2 Current dispute 3 The gospel transforms believers 4 Bible quotations

[edit] NPOV dispute

User:CheeseDreams added the NPOV disclaimer to this article, which says "Please see its talk page." So what elements are disputed? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 01:20, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

I find it a bit disturbing that the entire "history" section only quotes the bible. What kind of scholarship is this?

It does not only quote the Bible. It is lacking references for the content (though accurate they are) - the "Bible quotes" are references to where in the letter and in the rest of the NT certain people or events are referenced. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current dispute

Could everyone start using the talk page instead of reverting for a little while? Maybe we could hash out some of the differences here. Gamaliel 09:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The gospel transforms believers

I suggest the following for the "The gospel transforms believers" section:

In Romans 7:1, we see that humans are under the law while we live; however, Jesus' death on the cross makes believers dead to the law (Romans 7:4). In chapter 12 through the first part of chapter 15, Paul outlines how the gospel transforms us and the behaviour that results from such a transformation. He goes on to tell us how we should live, in these passages: not under the law, but under the grace of God. If we live by what the Bible says (Romans 12:9-21, Romans 13:8-10) and love everyone, study the scriptures (and share them with others), we are not going to need to sin. As Paul says in Romans 13:10, "love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of law". This should not be taken that Paul is telling us that love is all that matters; without first accepting Christ's gift (Romans 8:1, Romans 5:1), we are still under the bondage of sin (Romans 5:12-17) and cannot experience that love.

The current section is very shallow, to say the least, and the way it was previously didn't even make any sense (the concluding verses section was there until I moved it). I don't feel that I need to defend the paragraph above since I'm simply quoting what Paul himself wrote.Joshuagross 16:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

In general, I'm not sure that first person plural is the proper tense for this article. "We see," " we live," "we are"--all of these constructions are more exhortive than encyclopedic.

Further, any substantive exegesis of Paul's message will be POV; Christians disagree as to the proper interpetation of Romans. For example, you believe that Romans 12 through Romans 15 "oulines how the gospel transforms us and the behavior that results from such a transformation." Such an interpretation, while understandable, is not the only possible one. For example, others would see those chapters as instead containing instructions on how to live. Such differences in interpretation go to the heart of disputes between Catholics and Orthodox on the one hand and Reformed Protestants on the other on the nature of justification.

Rather than stir up a hornet's nest of what the "right" interpretation of any given passage is, I believe the more encyclopedic option is to briefly summarize Paul's statements and leave the interpretation to the reader.--Jbull 04:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

You make an excellent point about the tense. Refarding the interpretations, however, there is no reason we can't include some common interpretations, provided they are properly sourced and not presented as the only possible interpretation. Gamaliel 04:24, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

So long as every editor's personal interpretation is given space and clearly labeled as POV, your suggestion is fine with me.--Jbull 04:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me... I agree about the tense and not presenting it as the only POV. I'll work on it. Joshuagross 06:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I modified the tense and cleaned it up a bit more. How should the POV be labeled? The others aren't clearly labeled as POV either, so either all of them should be, or none.Joshuagross 06:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bible quotations

Just wondering if there is any policy for using a particular translation for bible quotes. I was reading the article and noticed that quotes are taken from the King James Authorized version. Are other contemporary (and more accurate) translations a possibility or at least a reference after the quote to the translation used.

Most translations are copywrited so they usually cannot be used in a publication that is sold for profit or used at all except for fair use, unless there is prior written permission. But I think it is quite biased to say that the KJV is NOT accurate. It's language is outdated but the MS may be more accurate than those that underlay the contemporary translations such as the NASB or NIV which use the Alexandrian Critical Text. You can learn about the manuscript debate on Wikipedia, but I prefer the Byzantine Majority Text myself.