Talk:Epistle to the Ephesians
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[edit] Looking to Revamp this article
I am looking to revamp this page with more scholarship and would like help if anyone is able. Leave me a note if you are able to help coldfire136
[edit] NPOV - Authorship
The section on Authorship I think is quite unbalanced, failing to present a NPOV. It is pretty inconceivable that Paul could have written both Collossians and Ephesians at the same time but yet have such a marked difference in Theology. Furthermore the language used by the author, referring to a Universal 'Church' ekkleisia, is unlike him. Reference to the ascension and the descension actually make it seem more akin to Luke than Paul, as well as the fact that 25 of the 40 words in Ephesians not found elsewhere in the Pauline corpus are found in Luke. Also, reference to "Holy Apostles and Prophets" found in Luke and Revelation, while Paul certainly did not think of himself as holy, being otherwise quite modest. Problem with calling the Holy Apostles and Prophets the foundation of the Church, going directly against 1 Cor, where Jesus is the only Foundation of the Church...
Anyway, the arguments are extensive against Pauline authorship. I think the argument against Pauline authorship be strengthened on this page. Perhaps also there should be a bit on other hypotheses - such as Onesimus, bishop of Ephesus as suggested by Goodspeed, or Tychicus as suggested by Mitton. Or even the writer of Luke-Acts as suggested by Martin? --Chopz 17:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I should just add, I think the hypothesis of a "round robin" is incredibly unlikely. As has been recognised by numerous scholars, in the days before printing writing was a laborious process. I think a more likely defense of Pauline authorship would be evidence (such as by Coutts) that Colossians is dependent on Ephesians. The argument that the letter was sent to the Laodiceans falls down simply because it stems from the reference to a letter in Col 4, sent to Laodicea, a larger neighbouring town to Colossae, as noted by Marcion. One can just as easily argue that the Ephesian letter is genuine because of the letter mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:12, which Tertulian saw to be the Ephesian letter. So either way that argument doesn't hold.
I cannot currently properly reference all the material so I cannot edit the article myself - I can though draw upon the article. When I can I will edit that section. Any Thoughts? Chopz 18:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Marriage?
I removed the following:
The Epistle to Ephesians is important as it outlines the role of marriage in Christian life. A central passage is the following: Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church. (Ephesians 5:22-24.) This serves as a spirtual basis for the the concept of a Christian wife.
I have the following objections to the above:
- This is not a unique significance of the book of Ephesians. This is stated almost identically in Colossians 3:18. 1 Corinthians 11:3 is also somewhat similar.
- The author failed to properly explain the Scriptural relationship between husband and wife. Instead, a tiny portion of Scripture was quoted out of context. The section of Scripture in which this appears speaks of several commonplace relationships and shows the ways in which BOTH parties in the relationship ought to submit. That is why it begins with the general statement "be subject to one another in the fear of Christ" (5:21).
- A proper explanation of this relationship would require it's own article which, IMHO, has no place in an encyclopedia. If it does have a place then it is not in an article on the Epistle to the Ephesians or an article entitled "Christian Wife" (surely THAT is not an article title we need in wikipedia?). Perhaps there is an article, or group of articles, on marriage in wikipedia. This would be a much more appropriate place for this discussion.
- The author failed to fit this section in with the flow and organization of the article and instead simply inserted it at the top. If it couldn't be properly merged it should at least have been inserted in its own section at the bottom.
-- kpearce
Agreed. This passage was handled badly and should have been removed the way it was. However, the ideas contained in this particular passage, while not totally unique to Ephesians, are an important part of the book and provide the basis for many sermons and scriptural teachings. On this basis, I believe it warrants its own section.
The passage is not about the concept of a "Christian Wife". This passage describes two relationships by comparing them: that between Husband and Wife and between Christ and the Church. On one level, it's a picture that is recurrant throughout the New Testament: that of Christ as a Bridegroom and the Church as His Bride. The Church should honor Christ with faithfulness, obedience and service. Christ listens to prayers, protects, guides and provides for the Church with an undying, selfless, self-sacrificing love.
On the other level, it's a picture of the ideal relationship between husband and wife. "For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the Church." The husband's role in the marriage covenant is supposed to mirror Christ's love for the Church ie. listen to, protect, guide and provide for his wife with undying, selfless, self-sacrificing love. His wife should return this love with faithfulness, honor and the practical manifestations of obedience and service. These last two, because of the modern connotations, can cause controversy, but they do not mean that the wife is supposed to be submissive or subservient to the husband. In fact, the Book of Proverbs and many other sections of Scripture describe a "Godly Woman" or "Godly Wife" as strong, assertive, capable of conducting business, etc. "Obedience" is simply not subverting the Husband's authority as Head of the Family and "Service" means the little (and sometimes not so little) things/chores that one enjoys doing for the one they love.
It must also be said that while Christ is divine and ONLY capable of the love necessary to make this kind of relationship work, Man is obviously not. But it is a husbands duty as a Christian to strive for this type of love for his wife. And it is his wife's duty as a Christian to "obey" and "serve" only to the extent to which her husband's love and care resembles Christ's. That is to say, if a man is treating his wife disrespectfully, or leading her to do things that are detrimental to her health or spiritual well-being or, worse yet, physically harming her, he has strayed from the Biblical mandate to love her as Christ loves the Church and she is obviously not bound to obey. WilliamThweatt 02:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV dispute
User:CheeseDreams added the NPOV disclaimer to this article, which says "Please see its talk page." The edit summary was "If collossians is one of the disputed texts and ephesians isn't then the description of ephesians being the copy from collossians isn't NPOV" I'm afraid I don't follow. What part of the article is disputed? – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 01:19, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Bibleref
Template:Bibleref has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Jon513 19:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
