Talk:Epirus (region)

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[edit] Epirus/Iberos?

Given that P/B are similar sounds, Epirus ~ Eberos/Iberos. Does this relate to the Hebrews/Apiru, and/or Caucasian/Spanish Iberians?

[edit] Pindus river/mountains

Should the famous Pindus river not be the Pindus mountains? If there exists a Pindus rivier, it is not as famous as the mountains, which are an impressive border indeed. Fransvannes 14:58 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] POV "award"

Saying that northern epirus was awarded to Albania by the great powers is wrong in my opinion. That was Albanian territory, and the great powers actually wanted to split up all the lands of albania among Greece, Italy, and Serbia. There would have been no Albanian state except for the intervention of Woodrow Wilson. Albanians lost some lands during that time, they did not gain any through "awards". --Dori 00:05, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)


[edit] 1911 E.B. article

@Wetman. The only groups of people in Greece having to do something with Albania are the Albanian immigrands and the Arvanites whose language is close to albanian. There is no single Tsamis(=Albanian of Epirus)(<Cameria, albanian for Epirus) living in Greece since the early 50's. This is undisputable, even for Albanians. Check your sources.

These "immigrants" were mentioned in 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. Has ethnic cleansing then removed all traces of them? Why then all that remains is to suppress all mention of their former existence. Not that I care one way or the other... Wetman 00:40, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Albanians in northern Greece were not immigrants. After the borders were drawn, they were left in Greece, and there was ethnic cleansing, but not to the point of denying their existance. I have no idea what this anon is talking about, but at least I, as an Albanian, dispute his "This is undisputable, even for Albanians". Dori | Talk 01:17, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)
I should also add that the Greek government makes many ridiculous claims when it comes to other ethnicities. For example they claim that all Albanian nationals in Albania who believe in the Orthodox faith are Greeks. I wouldn't give much credance to them when they make such claims. Dori | Talk 01:30, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)
"For example they claim that all Albanian nationals in Albania who believe in the Orthodox faith are Greeks" This is not true. Give us some sources that the Greek government has ever stated this. - George, June 28, 2004
If I could read Greek I would find them. As I haven't kept track of them, I haven't added them to the article. For more ridiculous claims by the Greek government have a look at these stats: [1]
Ethinicities: Greek 98%, other 2%
note: the Greek Government states there are no ethnic divisions in Greece
Language: Greek 99% (official)
Well there are between 500,000 (just illegal Albanian immigrants, admitted by the gov't, I can probably find this reference if you really want me to dig) - 1,000,000 (if you include all) Albanians living in Greece. Even if you take the number of Albanians that the Greek government says live in Greece it will come out to more than 2%. Add to that all the other immigrants (Turks, Kurds, Bulgarians, etc), and I am sure that you can come out with more than 2%. Do you need more proof that the Greek government is a pretty bad when it comes to lies? Dori | Talk 03:20, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

immigrants are not minorities! and You didn't find the claim that you have been asked.

After so much work by so many people, it does seem tiresome that User:Penfold has inserted {{1911}}. I have replaced the text with cut-and-paste from the 1911 E.B.. Then I reverted. Is there so much text remaining from the 1911 E.B. do you think? Wetman 21:39, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Map question

Do we have a map showing all of Epirus? I find it somewhat unbalanced to claim the area stretches across a border, and then show only one side of that border. Aliter 15:55, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] POV issues of "non-Greekness"

I would like to remind to all that this online encyclopaedia is not supposed to be a means for promoting nationalistic propaganda. It is well known that many people in Albania are claiming half of the Balkans! This however does not give them the right to use history for this purpose. Even more when in their effort to do so they resort to their own, hmmmm special version of history. Some examples: 1. In previous versions of this page it is claimed that "Western sources" were considering Epirus as Albanian. Which sources and when? 2. In previous versions of this page it is claimed that the people of Epirus did not participate in the Trojan War as a proof of their "non-Greekness". However at the time of the Trojan War the term Helenes (Greeks) was not used even by the Greeks themselves. The people that participated in the war were the Achaeans, one of the Greek tribes. The Greeks of Epirus ware of the Dorian tribes that appeared on the scene a bit later. 3. In previous versions of this page it is claimed that the people of Epirus did not participate in the Persian war as a proof of their "non-Greekness". However, even the Spartans, did not participate in the battle of Marathon (in the first expedition of the Persians against Greece) for their own reasons despite the desperate calls from the Atheneans. Furthermore the Spartans did not participate at all in the whole campaign of Alexander the Great against the Persian empire although this was probably the biggest Greek campaign ever and was the reason that the Greek culture was so widely spread in antiquity. Does this make the Spartans less Greek than all the others that participated?

One can find numerous such deliberate inaccuracies but the point is that Wikipedia is not supposed to be a place for people that serve political purposes. So please fellow Albanians leave the ancient Greek, Roman e.t.c. histories alone. It would not help you anyway. Because even if the Greeks had not anything to do with Epirus in the ancient years the Albanians did not have anything to do with it either. In fact the Albanian nation is such a recent development (13th century BC or even later if I am not wrong) that to try to base any claims on historical facts is rather fruitless. (The desperate attempts of the Albanians to trace the origin of their nation to the ancient Illyrians did not find much support outside Albania).

Please respect the truth.

"The desperate attempts of the Albanians to trace the origin of their nation to the ancient Illyrians did not find much support outside Albania" -- that's got to be the most NPOV statement of the century. Care to back up such bold claims? Also, don't be so quick as to associate Albanians (the people) solely with Albania (the modern state whose borders were not drawn up by Albanians). Albanians are most easily identified by their language. People move around. That's why you have Albanians in Greece and Greeks in Albania. No one has any deeds to any ancient lands. Epirus was neither 100% Greek nor 100% Albanian. That's what the article should convey. If you've got any independently certified statistics showing otherwise, I'd like to see it. Dori | Talk 02:38, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu!! and these are Albanians who reject your illyrian theory.

For some interesting readings have a read at [2] and [3]. This coming from an Aromanian site, and the Aromanians have seen no love from either the Albanians or the Greeks. Dori | Talk 03:32, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

I would like to know what does the author mean with "Greek character of towns like Koritsa (now Korçë) and Girokastron (now Gjirokastër)" Do you refer to the Greek language of the population? In that case it seems strange since nowadays I can't find this "character" and I have passed in Korçe my childhood (early 80s and my grandfathers are from there). Or do you probably refer to the religion? This is surely Eastern Orthodox, BUT NOT Greek Orthodox. I remind you that there exist many Orthodox Churches in the Balkans (the newest is the Montenegrin one) and the Greek Orthodox Church is one of them but not the only since ther are the Albanian, the Bulgarian, the Serbian ones and so on. The inability of the Greek nation to make a distintction between the Religion and the Ethnicity or Nationality has led to several, to say the least, misunderstandings if not wars and bloodshed. Orthodox=Greek is not a valid equation.

Albanian population were mostly moved? Move seems like going on a train ride. They were expelled. And that happened in 1920's with the greek-turkish population exchange. Albanians for some reason were categorized as turkish.



In his History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaleiates was

  the first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against
  Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium.
  Similarly, the historian John Scylitzes refers (ca. 1081) to the Arbanites as
  forming part of the troops assembled in Durrës by Nicephorus Basilacius. It can
  be assumed that the Albanians began expanding from their mountain homeland in the
  eleventh and twelfth centuries, initially taking possession of the northern and
  central Albanian coastline and by the thirteenth century spreading southward
  towards what are now southern Albania and western Macedonia. In the middle of the
  fourteenth century, they migrated even farther south into Greece, initially into
  Epirus, Thessaly (1320), Acarnania and Aetolia.' By the middle of the fifteenth
  century, which marks the end of this process of colonization, the Albanians had
  settled in over half of Greece in such great numbers that in many regions they
  constituted the majority of the population.

http://www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A2001CountriesCultures.pdf


In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot....

shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf


The first Latin-Albanian dictioanry was called "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum" and the Albanian langauge was called "lingua Epirotica" On top of this, a 17th century Enlightened Scholar named Joseph Scalinger stated that Albanian was spoken "In the mountains of Epirus" .

Look at this! 1761 Blaž Tadijanović Svašta po malo iliti kratko složenje imena i riči u ilirski i njemački jezik (Miscellany, or a short Illyrian and German grammar) 1803 Josip Voltiggi Istranin Grammatica illirica (Illyrian Grammar) So what? Are the Slavs Illyrians.They are both being used as geographic terms.


This article is not NPOV. I've seen this article in a Greek propaganda site. -user

The above is source is correct & not propaganda.

The region of Epirus during the middle ages was not the same as the one the article describes. Byzantine Epirus was split into two themata:
  • Old Epirus (today's Greek Epirus)
  • New Epirus (Northern Epirus and central Albania)

After the assimilation of Albania into the Greek Despotate of Epirus, the entire Albanian region was known for some time under that name. As for Northern Epirus, it was awarded to Albania after the Greek civil war by the Greek communist party, and not any great forces. It was the Greek army who defeated the Axis forces in Epirus during WW2, not the Albanians. History can be tricky if you only know parts of it. Miskin 09:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


Can anyone read the history and say what was wrong with my edits? Someone had completly deleted them! Also, the last two rulers of Epirus (Empire of) were Serbs: List of Serbian rulers HolyRomanEmperor 16:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I've added the POV tag for the (repeated) changes by an anonymous user. +MATIA ☎ 10:27, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Since a couple anons keep removing the NPOV tag, I've protected this article. -Greg Asche (talk) 18:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern, but could you please revert the article to its pre-vandalised version? The current version is full of the anonymous user's untruths and nationalist propaganda.--Theathenae 13:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not propaganda. Are you saying that al that whoey about the Greater Albania is propaganda??? Rex(talk) 13:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Please. The text is a copyvio of an Albanian school textbook. Do you support the annexation of "Çamëria" to Albania, User:REX?--Theathenae 13:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

IMHO it doesn't matter, because soon both countires will be member states of the EU (see Enlarging Europe:Albania). What difference will it make then? Do you support the annexation of "Voriya Ipiros" to Greece? Rex(talk) 14:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

That isn't an unequivocal rejection of the idea. And no, I don't support the annexation of northern Epirus to Greece, nor any other dangerous border changes in the Balkans, e.g. Kosovo. However, recognising Albanian sovereignty over northern Epirus does not mean that Greece should not oppose Albania's assimilationist policy against the Greeks living there.--Theathenae 14:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, people, I asked you a question!!!! :X HolyRomanEmperor 17:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It is obvious a Greek wrote this article. It sounds as Albania invaded its own land in the south. A neutral one must be written. How can you include some "opression of human rights" in Albania and completely avoid the massacres in Janina and Filat? And what is this "Greek character" of "Korytsa" and "Argyrokastro"? No one has been able to see this kind of character. Congratulations for a new discovery. - Kastrioti, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Kastrioti is right, what the Çamë suffered under Metaxas was nothing less than genocide. The Albanians have the same right to live in Epirus/Çamëria as the Greeks and have done so. This article conveniently glosses over that fact, and instead pretends that the Greeks are the only legitimate inhabitants, whereas everyone else are unwanted foreigners. POV! 300,000 Albanians were expelled from Greece 700 women were raped, 80 children under the age of 3 were murdered, 1020 men were killed. The EU court of Human Rights is planning on looking into this in the near future. What happened the last time? Greece was convicted! Compensation should be paid and the Albanian estates should be returned. Nevertheless, the genocide aside, this article is too POV and glosses over the fact that Albanians have a significant history in this land. Rex(talk) 15:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Who is lying on the numbers? 300,000!!!!===Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4397470.stm

Metaxas died in 1941. The Chams left when the Nazi Germans left Greece around 1944. +MATIA ☎ 21:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Need I remind you of the famous (you might say infamous) Helsinki Report? Metaxas initiated a hellenisation policy aimed at all ethnic/linguistic minorities of Greece and inter alia the Chams were already subject to bad treatment. Expelling them was (not necessarily done by him) was (in my opinion) due to the fact that they were Muslims. The Christian Albanians were subject to much less bad treatment. This hypocrisy is terrible. Greece treats her own minorities like cr*p and then complains about the treatment of the Greek minorities in other countries (eg Albania). The genocide of the Pontic Greek by Turkey is another terrible example, and then Turkey has the sauce to complain about the Greek Muslim Minority. Genocide! Why can't people live and let live. Genocide is taking place as we speak in Sudan, why? I'm so glad I live in the other end of Europe from the Balkans, far away from all this hypocrisy. Rex(talk) 21:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Your accusations against Greece are baseless. +MATIA ☎ 21:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's one for a start. And don't forget what the ECHR had to say. Rex(talk) 22:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow, would you look at that! And there's more and more and more. How's that for baseless accusations? Rex(talk) 22:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's my personal favorite: the Court found that by both their acts and omissions the Greek authorities had violated Article 11. The Greek government is ungrateful, they have received all that money from the EU, the EU even paid for their new airport and the 2004 Olympic Games and this is how they behave, the violate the European priciples and don't respect Human Rights. Ungrateful! Rex(talk) 23:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I think that perhaps it time people learnt to grow up! Modern Greeks and Modern Albanains and the territories they currently occupy are modern issues and have about as much relation to ancient Illyrians, classical Greek leagues and city states as I do to the people currently living in Jutland (Traditional home of the Angles supposed progenitors of the modern English, of which I am one). (Rory-rbremner)

Greek POV is everywhere in this article. The Camerian Genocide is barely discussed, the estimated 400,000 Albanian identifying Orthodox Christian Çams that have remained (and that's excluding the recent Albanian immigrants from 1990) are not even mentioned. Voria Epirus is always mentionad as being liberated, except the vast majority of the inhabitants of Voria Ipiros are Albanians. This article needs be-POVizing a lot and whatever is without source shall be removed. Rex(talk) 09:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

You have been reverting this article into a ludicrous version by User:Kastrioti where the name of the established article Comnenus is changed to Mihael Komnan (supporting that him and the Despotate of Epirus were Albanian). You knew about this article's existence and you only remembered to care about the so called "Greek POV" when a Albanian nationalist started vandalising the article. After this behaviour you're in no position to question the reliability of its content. You're hardly what is called a "well-established" operators as 99% of your edits concert ethnic debates that reach nationalist overtones. The edits of User:Kastioti (that you yourself supported) qualify as simple vandalism (section Wholesale reversions around one point). Miskin 16:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Nah, it's not vandalism. It's POV pushing. Both versions are inaccurate (Kastrioti's is just a little over the top). This article is grossly POV, both ways. Why the Albanian minority is not mentioned is beyond me. Just because the Greek government pretends they don't exist? Petty Greek nationalism. PS what have 99% of your edits concerned? Rex(talk) 18:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

REX there is no more Albanian minority in Epirus, it was long exchanged with a large Greek minority in Southern Albanian, I suppose you're already knew that. If you want to make a point to the Albanian minority that existed prior to this population exchange, then just add what you want in the article without vandalising every section of it. Read simple vandalism to find out why Kastrioti's edits were clear Vandalism that you supported. Miskin 10:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I have previously admitted it: my version is mostly AlbanianPOV. The reason I put it on wikipedia is to show that more neutral articles are necessary. The current one is pure Greek nationalist propaganda and it is ridiculous how the Greek users here don't admit it. Not mentioning the slaughters of thousands of people is not simply nationalism but extremism. In conclusion, the article was already vandalized before I created my account.

I already suggested that a new neutral article about Epirus should be written. This should be done soon or we'll continue to edit and re-edit for our own interests. Kastrioti 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Kastrioti, usually I don't talk reply seriously to people like you. You obviously have no historical knowledge, all you know is that Skanderbeg was referring to his Epirote army and ancestors (that he differentiated from the Albanians), so you decided that in order to keep his Albanian identity intact, you should change any references that prove Epirus as a historically Greek region. You're so blinded by nationalism that you were stupid enough to "Albanise" the names of the Byzantine emperors in order to deny the Greek identity of the Despotate of Epirus. Reverting to your nationalist myths 30 times a day won't help you edit an article, trust me on that one. We can't be writing new articles each time an ignorant extremist can't accept history. Keep reverting as much as you want, there are already some adult admins watching over you. Miskin 10:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Miskin, you know that dismissing people because you perceive yourself to be so superior is not going to get this over with. You cannot deny that the article, in both versions, is hopelessly POV. Yes, the most common names should be used as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), but those bits about "liberating" Northern Epirus, and The Treaty of Berlin of 1881 gave Greece parts of southern Epirus, but it was not until the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 that rest of southern Epirus was returned to Greece. But the Greeks resented the fact that northern Epirus had been given to the new state of Albania, despite the mostly Greek character of the area and in big towns like Korytsá (Korçë in Albanian) and Argyrókastro (Gjirokastër). If that's not POV and a land claim on Albanian territory with the vast majority of the population being Albanian, I don't know what it is. why don't we discuss the Çam Genocide by the Greek resistance? Because the Greek government denies it? 3,000 people were murdered just because they were Muslims and the far-right fractions (EDES) wanted an ethnicaly pure border region. Even today, despite the Greek government's denials, there is a Christian Çam minority in Greece (they were not persecuted by EDES, they were just forced underground and attempts made to assimilate them). Why aren't they mentioned? What about the thousands of Albanian immigrants who live in Epirus? This article is hopelessly POV and reflects the Greek romanitic nationalist dreams on how they wish reality was. Rex(talk) 11:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Find neutral evidence about the genocide and it will be added. Epirus as a whole has had historically predominantly Greek, this is where the 'returned' comes in, but you can remove it as much as I'm concerned. Northern Epirus was occupied (if you prefer) by the Greek army in WW2 and was part of the Greek state after the allied victory. The only reason Northern Epirus now belongs to Albania was because the Greek communist party literally gave it away as a gift to their Albanian "comrades" during the civil war. This is why Northern Epirus never remained an independent state. None of those facts were mentioned in the article, therefore it's neutral. Compare reality to Kastrioti's version of the story to realise why it's vandalism. Albanian POV is not going to pass here just because Skanderbeg wrote about the Epirotes in a letter. Nobody cares about what Skanderbeg said so you can stop fearing that he will be "stolen" from you. Miskin 11:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The whole Cham genocide is outlined inter alia here, by a neutral source. UNPO claims that there are currently 200,000 Cham Albanians in Greece. According to the previous document, the ethnicity of Epirus is and always has been blurred, therefore you have no right to POV push, but should state all opinions and support none (as per WP:NPOV). If you think that northern Epirus was a "gift" to Albania, how do you explain the fact that UNPO estimates 280,000 people in "Northern Epirus". If that is not a drop of water in the sea? Where is the predominantly Greek northern Epirus? It is fully Albanian now, AND the Albanian authorities actually recognise the Greek minority as opposed to the Greek authorities who pretend that the Albanian minority doesn't exist. This article should be neutral, as I have said time and time again. What is wrong with WP:NPOV? Don't you like it? All views ahould be expressed and FACTS should not be left out just because you feel like it. Rex(talk) 13:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Northern Epirus was a gift by the communist party. Its Greek population has decreased significantly after the Albanian annexation and land claims have been withdrawn, I never claimed that Southern Albania is currently predominantly Greek, so I don't know what you're talking about. Miskin 11:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Miskin, thank you for showing your neutral POV.

As for my knowledge, I might know nothing about Athens or Thessaloniki, but I certainly know more than you about Epirus. Your arrogance does not illustrate education and you should stop it.

As for Epirus, it still is incredible how you keep denying some of the most important facts of its history. The Cham massacre is one of them. You said you want some neutral sources before adding it to the article. Here there are two neutral PRIMARY sources, undisputable too.

Colonel Chris Woodhouse, head of the British Military Mission in Greece: “Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania. Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large-scale bloodshed. Zervas’s work was followed in March 1945 with a large-scare massacre of the Filiates Chams that cannot be excused. The result was the eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their land.”

British Foreign Office PRO/FO No.371/48094/544/R8 564


Another primary source if you are not convinced…

Joseph Jacobs, head of the US Mission in Albania: “In March 1945 units of the Zervas’s dissolved forces carried out a massacre of Chams in the Filiates area, and practically cleared the district of the Albanian minority. According to all the information I have been able to gather on the Cham issue, in the fall of 1944 and during the first months of 1945, the authorities in north-western Greece perpetrated savage brutality by evicting some 25,00 Chams –residents of Chameria – from their homes. They were chased across the border after having been robbed of their land and property. Hundreds of male Chams from ages of 15 to 70 were interned on the islands of the Aegean Sea. In total, 102 mosques were burnt down.”

Documents of the US Department of State, No. 84/3, Tirana Mission, 1945-1946, 6-646.


I think those two neutral primary sources are good enough to prove the massacre of Muslim Chams did occur. It must be added to the article because it is one of the most important events in Epirus’s history whether you like it or not.

And what do you mean when you say "Epirus as a historical Greek region"? Are baklava and byrek (spanakopita) Greek too? No, they are Turkish. And Epirus is not a historical Greek region. Your ancestors have proved it too. It is, to this day, a disputed region.

You have crossed the limit when you wrote about Korca and Gjirokastra as “cities with mostly Greek character.” Korca is the city where the first school (in Albanian language) was opened. Korca is where Germenji and Kostandin Kristoforidhi were born. Kristoforidhi is one of the most important men in Albania’s history. His contribution to the Albanian alphabet was essential. that's why the Greek Church cursed him and the Albanian language. Naum Veqilharxhi, the man who started the Albanian renaissance, was from Korca. Kristo Negovani, a priest from Korca, was translating the liturgy in Albanian. The Greek Church cursed and then massacred him. Cerciz Topulli from Gjirokastra (another city of mostly Greek character) killed Fotis, the Greek priest responsible for Negovani’s death. Ilia Sheperi, a genious of Albanian language, was from Gjirokastra. Jani Vreto, one of the five Christians who participated in the League of Prizren was Gjirokastrit. What in the world makes these cities have a mostly Greek character? All I see from their histories is the sacrifice for Albania. Your statement was pure propaganda, or maybe it came out of ignorance because you probably know nothing of Korca and Gjirokastra and it's not your fault. You're so blinded by nationalism that you are stupid enough to Hellenize these two Albanian cities that have a strong Albanian identity. History proves it.

As for Komneni: I recheked some information and it seems I misundertood one fact. Arianiti is maternaly related to Komneni and I thought he was related from his father's family. It was my mistake and I admit it.

I never quoted Skanderbeg. You are the one doing that but since you brought it up, then I must tell you that he knew what he was saying. His reference came from Stanish, his older brother, and he did not differentiate himself from the Albanians.

This is my last serious response to you because your nationalistic mind desires to select facts. You only like your POV and that is Greek only. I'm not here to convince you. You have your perspective, I have mine. The next resposes will be short, 2-3 sentences.

As for the administrators; I’m glad they’re watching over me. If they’re watching me, then they must be watching you too. This means wikipedia is supervised. Good!

PS: The reason why we got southern Albania is because international borders were already drawn. Similar to why Serbia took Kosova in 1945, even though it was united (or occupied or annexed) with Albania. Kastrioti, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


Ok right into the point by quoting REX's own source:

  • The Chams were subsequently armed by the Italians and co-operated with them against Greek villages controlled by Greek resistance fighters. During this period, atrocities were committed by a minority of Chams against Greek civilians, thousands of whom were forced to flee from their homes.

I bet you didn't read that article fully. The Albanians were on the side of the nazis and started commiting massacres against the local Greek population, who were fighting the Axis forces. That was your noble "Cham struggle" that you're asking us to honour. It continues:

  • 14 In October 1944 when the Germans began withdrawing from Greece, many hundreds of Chams also fled with them into Albania. Henceforth, the remaining Muslim Albanians in Greece were regarded by the Greeks as the enemy within.

Why were those nasty Greeks seeing the Albanians as the enemy at the time? Because they joined the nazis and committed massacres while the Greeks were fighting for their freedom"'. Is that clear enough to both of you? The majority of the Chams fled Epirus. So far so good, the Greek atrocities began after the Albanian collaboration with the Axis forces: In an attempt to establish an ethnically pure border region, the Chams were evicted from northern Greece by guerrilla forces under the command of General Napoleon Zervas acting under the instructions of allied officers. In the light of recent research, wartime documents show that Greek actions against the Chams were supported and authorised by the British. These actions resulted in around 35,000 Chams fleeing to Albania and others to Turkey. Colonel Chris Woodhouse, head of the British Military Mission in Greece reported that: "Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania. Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large-scale bloodshed. Zervas's work was followed in March 1945 with a largescale massacre of the Filiates Chams that cannot be excused. The result was the eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their land." The details that follow (about rapes and murders) cannot be taken into consideration unless quoted by an official source such as a well established encyclopedia or a neutral historical work. Assuming that those grave Greek atoricities did take place, it's not like the racist genocide that you both present it, it's about the punishment of those who took the side of the nazis. Greece lost 700,000 people during that war, defeated the Italian forces and resisted to the Germans, while at the same time the Albanians only cared about expanding their territory. I'm definitely not excusing any kind of killing of innocent people, but I'm pointing out that a post-WW2 political situation in the Balkans is too complicated and too alien to be understood so easily by a couple of internet-warriors. You can't criticise so naively the political situation of WW2. According to your patiotic logic, we should start considering the Invasion of Normandy and the occupation of Berlin as a Massacre of Germans. The Allied forces were bombing Berlin for days after the Nazis had already surrendered, but no-one dares to call this a "massacre". Make your own conclusions. Miskin 11:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

To stick to the point, my opinion is that this incident requires an article of its own where every information will be revealed, including the pro-Albanian stance of the Greek communist party during the civil war that resulted in offering Epirus as a "gift" to the Albanian state. If you insist to stick it here, be aware that both sides of the story will be stated, including the Albanian collaboration with the Axis, and the Allied "permission" concerning their punishment. User:Kastioti continues to ask simple vandalism on the article by making ludicrous edits to all of its sections. Miskin 11:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

  • User:Kastrioti says:And what do you mean when you say "Epirus as a historical Greek region"? Are baklava and byrek (spanakopita) Greek too? No, they are Turkish. And Epirus is not a historical Greek region. Your ancestors have proved it too. It is, to this day, a disputed region.

It means that throughtout its history it has been primarily inhabited by Greeks (though never exclusively). The Despotate of Epirus should not confuse you into believing that it included Epirus. It extended further North to include almost half of modern Albania, and further south to include western Greece. The Albanian population was allied with the Greeks at the time, but they were not regarded as Epirotes. As for "baklava", it has a turkish name, which means that it has had Turkish influence, but the origin of the sweet itself goes further back in Byzantine history. Now I don't know what "byrek" is, but Spanakopita is Greek. It's has feta cheese in it (hello!). But honestly, you don't have to be so envious, I'll say it's Albanian if that will make you feel any better about yourself. Miskin 11:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

A list of quotes that will demonstrate why I considered user:Kastrioti from the start a waste of everybody's time:

  • (Epirus) It is, to this day, a disputed region.

The man actually has ongoing land claims that he expects to sort out by adding nationalist myths on a Greek article.

  • All I see from their histories is the sacrifice for Albania.

Nationalist views that existed in Europe over 50 years in the past.

  • you are stupid enough to Hellenize these two Albanian cities that have a strong Albanian identity. History proves it.

I don't care about the personal attacks, what I'm pointing out is again your ignorance. There has actually been a medieval Greek Empire that it came under the name of Epirus but your constant reverts prove that is something you blindly deny. Do you want me to quote sources like Eric Hobsbawm on this one? Be careful because the score is increasing.

  • I never quoted Skanderbeg. You are the one doing that but since you brought it up, then I must tell you that he knew what he was saying.

Limited historical history. Scanderbeg's article makes explicit differentiation between "Albanians" and "Epirotes", he never considers them the same thing. Judging by the history of region (and the region despotate), Skanderbeg's epirotes where nothing but but Byzantine Greeks. The seal of Skanderbeg which marks him as "Emperor of the Greeks" proves that. All of the above info and quotes are presented in the article. But of course I don't expect to believe that, what I do expect form you is to keep your views to yourself.

  • "As for Komneni: I recheked some information and it seems I misundertood one fact. Arianiti is maternaly related to Komneni and I thought he was related from his father's family. It was my mistake and I admit it.

Right. So in your world, you just vandalise an article 24/7, realise afterwards that you were "confused", and you expect to settle this with a "sorry"? Isn't that right? Well it's wrong. You just demostrated why I looked down on you and considered you a waste of time from the beginning. You also proved why all your edits should be reverted by default, because they'll be probabilistically biased. You made my point. Miskin 11:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Both sides of the story should be present. Sources should be found, and of course we shall quote my source, which says:

Under the DP government in June 1994 a new law was passed, which proclaimed 27 June as "The Day of Greek Chauvinist Genocide Against the Albanians of Chameria" and set up a memorial to the Chams in the southern village of Konispol.

Of course this whole thing needn't be gone into in much detail. Of course the name Mihael Komnan cannot be used. The most common name used in English should be used as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Those bits about the Greek character of Gjirokastër and Korçë will have to be do-POVized until a neutral reference is found. I think that'll do for now. Rex(talk) 11:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

PS Miskin, read Wikipedia:Vandalism:

Mistakes
Sometimes, users will insert content into an article that is not necessarily accurate, in the belief that it is. By doing so in good faith, they are trying to contribute to the encyclopedia and improve it. If you believe that there is inaccurate information in an article, ensure that it is, and/or discuss its factuality with the user who has submitted it.

What makes an edit vandalism is bad faith. Is Kastrioti, to the best of your judgement, acting out of bad faith, or is there a serious defect in the articles "alleged" neutrality. Rex(talk) 11:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I still didn't hear the answer to my question!!!!! Why did you delete the two last Epirotean rulers? (who were Serbs) see: List of Serbian rulers HolyRomanEmperor 19:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


Yes, right, 35000 people just fled. And all of them collaborated with nazis. And yet you forget about 1913-14 and 1922. I guess they disliked living where their ancestors had lived for centuries and they just left. And Epirus was never primarily inhabited by Greeks. Read Suflay, Fevereial, Lodge, D'Angely, Gatti etc. Even the so-called "vorioepirotes" are not natives. Ottoman records show they are from central Greece and settled in Dropulli around the 1840s. They were living in poverty and they left. They became farmers of Albanian beylers and pashas. So your claim goes down by primary source information but it is valid considering Greek sources.

Korca and Gjirokastra are pure Albanian cities with a long Albanian history. The previous comment proves it whether you like it or not. This explains why I looked down at you because you didn't know what you were talking about. Thus, the edits are completely justified.

Now you're thinking of adding the chameria genocide, after denying it 24/7. Well, that just proves my point. Thank you for crossing the limit again by mentioning the Albanian national hero, Gjergj Kastrioti.

Scanderbeg's article makes explicit differentiation between "Albanians" and "Epirotes", he never considers them the same thing. Judging by the history of region (and the region despotate), Skanderbeg's epirotes where nothing but but Byzantine Greeks.

Interesting. I just went and checked it. A passage of his letter is in front of me and it says "Arberit". And so does Marin Barleti's letter, as well as the one of Ferdinand of Aragona. Arberia was Albania between XII-XVI century. So your statement is baseless and is just a valueless argument for claiming a hero. I knew it, you were a waste of everyone's time since the beginning. I should've never posted the previous long comment.

The details that follow (about rapes and murders) cannot be taken into consideration unless quoted by an official source such as a well established encyclopedia or a neutral historical work.

My details come from Miranda Vicker's article and are accepted by most of the international experts.

The man actually has ongoing land claims that he expects to sort out by adding nationalist myths on a Greek article. Bravo, you admit your goal.

PS: Spanakopita or tiropita or however you call it is really Turkish. Bakllava is either turkish or middle eastern. Now, don't tell me Turkish coffee is really Greek coffee? Kastrioti, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Spanakopita and tiropita are two completely different things, and the only link is the feta cheese. People like Kastrioti are giving the worst image of their ethnicity. If I had never met an Albanian in my life I'd think that they're all nationalist moron who all they do is hate and envy their neighbouring nations in order to feel better about their own misery. Honestly that's the image you give. Like for example when you question the origin of two feta-based foods, that have blatantly never seen in your life. That makes you look like a sad muppet. Miskin 19:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

As for you REX, I hope you're joking when you call the "Miranda Vickers" article a neutral source. You either think I'm completely stupid or you haven't read it. I read it fully last night, and I can't possible think of a better definition for the word "propaganda". I think by now my initial attitude towards people like Kastrioti is again justified. And if you can honestly not see what's wrong with that article, then unfortunately you belong to the same group of editors like Kastrioti. However if you do see what's wrong with it and yet you choose to pass such ludicrous POVs in wikipedia, then you're still at the same level with Kastrioti, except smarter (he probably believes it was actually written by a non-Albanian). Either way, you're in the black list. Miskin 19:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Summary: When Miskin dislikes what neutral sources say, he dismisses them as propaganda and people who support the said neutral source are stupid and belong on a black list. Rex(talk) 19:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Miskin, I would really like to know how blinded by that Greek romantic nationalist fantasy you are. This is a neutral source you have no reason to dismiss it. You probably wouldn't even admit that there are 200,000 Orthodox Chams still in northwestern Greece (from UNPO), but you promote their figure of 280,000 for the Greek minority of Voria Ipiros. These double standards have got to stop! Rex(talk) 19:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


When Miskin dislikes what neutral sources say, he dismisses them as propaganda and people who support the said neutral source are stupid and belong on a black list.

that's absolutely right. Whatever is not pro-Greek is propaganda. It must be another one of those Unholy Alliances.

again, is Turkish coffee Greek coffee? Again, byrek is Turkish food, thta's how the world recognizes it except Greek nationalists like you.

Miskin, you are actually giving the worse name to Greeks. If I had never met a Grreek, I would think they're nationalist morons who take what they like from their neighbors and say "it's ours".

But I do understand your attitude. I'm a native of Epirus and for that you consider me a barbarian. You think a lot like Gage but at least he's smart.

Since you ONLY want neutral sources, then we shall ONLY use neutral sources for "Greeks" too and that is no Greek or Albanian estimations. Kastrioti, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Why am I being ignored? I still didn't get my answer!!! HolyRomanEmperor 19:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

REX get us a real source and we talk about it later. If you do make a point, then it will probably need an article of its own which would be linked here. If that ridiculous college coursework (which as far as I'm concerned might be your own work) is the best you can do, then I provoke you to have a 3rd party decide whether it's neutral or not. Miskin 13:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait... Do you think that I am User:REX ??? HolyRomanEmperor 16:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to the article

I've made some fairly major changes to the article; in its old version it was rather a mish-mash of different things. I've now remodelled it on the same lines as the Macedonia articles. The main changes are as follows:

I'd be interested to know what others think... -- ChrisO 01:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that Epirus (region) should be moved to Epirus and have a line at the intro about Epirus (disambiguation). The way I see it the region article is a superset of all related articles. Beside that, I agree with the content splits into various articles you did, and I would have done the same in the past if I were bolder. +MATIA ☎ 11:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Etymology of Epirus

It is possible that the names "Epirus", "Europe", "Ambraces", "Bryges", "Hebrus river" are agnate. Their roots (*pr-) and (*br-) are closely akin. In the end of 3rd or the beginning of 2nd millennia BC, the original meaning of these words had to be "Western Country" or "Peoples that dwelled in country in west of Hebrus river".

Perhaps, this great river divided the eastern Thrace, the known country to Hattians, Hittites and other Orient peoples from the western Thrace and the lands beyond, the unknown country to them.

--IonnKorr 22:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Molossoi are Illyrians ?

Since when the Molossoi and Chaones are considered by archaeologists and linguists to be illyrian and not greek tribes ? Can someone quote the exact passage of Thucydides that calls them " barbarians" ? Why are then the greater part of the historical monuments and isncriptions of the region greek ? Perhaps the oracle of Dodona and the there worshipped god Zeus are also Illyrian ? Maybe because something like that would say that the region has always been inhabited by Albanians and should therefore be annexed to the modern state by the same name ? It is sad that because a page can be freely edited, it can also proclaim lies and distortions of reality as real facts to serve a country's nationalism.

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