Talk:Epicanthal fold

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.."An epithcanthal fold...is the origin of the...term "mongoloid."

What does that mean? A-giau 10:23, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 America 2 Irish 3 POV 4 Pejorative vandal 5 The vandal may not be permanently punted, ever 6 Epicanthoplasty 7 Down Syndrome 8 "Slanted eyes" 9 Major resectioning 10 Err... 11 Question...but don't get offended by it.... 12 I don't understand. 13 Khoisan?

[edit] America

Don't Amerindians and Eskimo have it too?

Many Latin Americans have it, too. This is because, like the American Indian and the Eskimo, their ancestors crossed over the Bering Strait landbridge tens of thousands of years ago.--YoungFreud 12:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Epicanthic folds are more common in Native Americans than most other populations in the world beside East/South East Asians. BUT, the occurance of epicanthic folds in Native Americans is much less prominant than with East Asians. They tend to be most common among indigenous of the northern most populations/tribes. I have also noted they also seem fairly common among some arawak tribes of the Amazon. 69.213.87.141 13:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Foolish white. the epicanthal fold is a sign of superiority and intelligence. Asians > cRA KERS

[edit] Irish

I'm not going to add this, because I want to hear confirmation from somebody with a stronger anthropology background; but I have read before that the expression 'Irish eyes' refers to the tendency among Irish people to have whole or partial epicanthic folds. John F Kennedy had such a feature. (I did too when I was a child, though according to the article this is common among children who aren't of Irish descent as well.) QuartierLatin 1968 02:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

i am scottish, with possible irish heritage, and i have very distinct epicanthal folds....

so in regards to the irish thing, well, yes so it seems so!

In response to the two posts above: I have never heard this before, but I'll have to add myself to the anecdotal evidence of epicanthal folds as a possible feature of people of Irish descent. I have had very distinct epicanthal folds since birth and on into adulthood and I am of English, Irish, and German extraction. No one else in my family has this trait, though, so I can't figure out where it came from. And I don't think that JFK can be said to have had epicanthal folds, based on looking at some pictures of him online. Coreyander 04:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Surely "ugly" is POV

[edit] Pejorative vandal

How can the vandal who keeps add the pejorative "ugly" be punted from wikipedia?

[edit] The vandal may not be permanently punted, ever

Per WIkipedia policy

[edit] Epicanthoplasty

Epicanthoplasty is the name of the operation for reduction of Epicanthal fold. Blepharoplasty is the creation of a "double eyelid" from a "single".--Hontogaichiban 01:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

"Blepharoplasty" is a generic term for reshaping the eyelid. Perhaps you are referring to Asian blepharoplasty. -AED 17:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that, you're right and I certainly did mean to say Asian blepharoplasty.--Hontogaichiban 22:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Down Syndrome

I fail to see why Down Syndrome should be mentioned in this article? I believe individuals with Down Syndrome also have mouths but it doesn't mention that on the mouth page!? I can see why it might be mentioned on the Down Syndrome page as a feature that is more exaggerated in that condition, but here I would have to question the reason it has been stated.--Hontogaichiban 13:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've read from somewhere that the Down syndrome anomalous fold is not actually the same as a healthy fold. But, an epicanthal fold on a person who normally wouldn't have one is a simple diagnostic clue, and has to be mentioned. The issue here is like with lactose intolerance: a "disease" in Europe and genetically associated areas, but normal elsewhere; yet lactose intolerance is a symptom of irritable bowel syndrome, which is not normal anywhere. --Vuo 01:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

When there is a dispute like this, it certainly helps to provide references for the assertions. -AED 03:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your input on this one, I am always open to being proved wrong! :) However, I'm still not happy about this. Firstly, if the fold in question is not the same as an epicanthal fold and is best refered to as "Down syndrome anomalous fold" then it shouldn't be here, it should either be on a separate page or on the "Down syndrome" page. Also please define "a person who normally wouldn't have one". I don't think in the vast majority of cases, clues are normally required in diagnosing Down Syndrome, the diagnosis is fairly obvious and straight forward. As for IBS, not all IBS suffers are lactose intolerant, not by a long way, do you have a source for this one?--Hontogaichiban 02:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

And "Cri du chat anomalous fold"? The article is about the feature, not just about its occurence in people of various ethnicities. (Red hair mentions its incidence as a symptom of kwashiorkor, for example.)

I imagine "a person who normally wouldn't have one" has as intended referent a person who has a chromosomal variation who, in the counterfactual situation where they did not have that variation (i.e. the mutation in their gamete which caused the variation failed to occur, or was reversed early in embryonic development), and from then on experienced a healthy, typical pregnancy, would have been born without an epicanthal fold. (Yes, I know I'm just rephrasing. Personally, I believe that causality is a primitive concept. "Normally", again, is incredibly slippery, but I think I know what Vuo meant by the term; I can't see any wildly different interpretations that would still make sense. I doubt Vuo is referring to a person who has temporarily acquired an epicanthal fold through makeup or cosmetic surgery, for one.)

As for diagnosis, all diagnostic indicators are clues in some sense. When a baby who has Down syndrome is born, if prenatal tests have not indicated the baby as having the syndrome, epicanthal folds will be one of the indicators leading to medical practicioners pursuing a diagnosis of Down syndrome, if the epicanthal folds are unexpected given the baby's parentage. -- EdC 09:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm comfortable with the way you have phrased it now.--Hontogaichiban 12:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I hope people realise why adding this to this page is controversal. I note that on the down syndrome page the only mention of epicanthal folds is to point out how linking this feature between down syndrome and people with inherited epicanthal folds lead to a degree of racism that continues to this day. So it seems that to mention it here in this much smaller article is out of proportion and potentially misleading.

"English physician John Langdon Down first characterized Down syndrome as a distinct form of mental retardation in 1862, and in a more widely published report in 1866 entitled "Observations on an ethnic classification of idiots".[1] Because of his perception that Down syndrome children shared physical facial similarities (epicanthal folds) with Mongolians, he used the terms mongolism and mongolian idiocy.[2] "Idiocy" was a medical term of the century referring to a severe degree of intellectual impairment." - Quote from Down syndrome article.

--Hontogaichiban 13:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see racism mentioned in that context; I do realise that it's a sensitive topic, but that's no reason to omit encyclopædic facts. Anyway, if the mere mention of a topic in an article appears to overemphasise that topic, the solution is not to remove the topic but to expand the article. We don't have anything on the connotations of epicanthic folds in various East Asian cultures, for example. That's something that I'm certainly not qualified to begin to write about, but if you could add any information it would help to redress the balance. We should (I think) be aiming for something like the article on red hair, which also deals with a minority phenotype with positive and negative connotations in the societies where it does occur. EdC 16:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with everything you've said.

Re racism in the down syndrome article, what it is refering to there is the linking on down syndrome and the Asian "race" which still has ramifications today. I don't mind all this information being included, I just want to ensure it is done carefully and I hope we can all work together to achieve this.--Hontogaichiban 17:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Slanted eyes"

User:Hontogaichiban: you removed a sentence (diff), deceptively marking it as a minor edit. I appreciate that you did so in good faith, but "slanted eyes" is (whether you like it or not) a common shorthand in colloquial English for the appearance of epicathal folds. As such, it should be preserved, perhaps moved later in the article with a mention that the term carries undesirable undertones. But I'll let you do that. EdC 07:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't accept that "slanted eyes" is a common shorthand in colloquial English for the appearance of epicathal folds. Not only is it technically incorrect but it is also potentially offensive. Here is a dictionary defintion[1]:

:slant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (slnt)
:v. slant·ed, slant·ing, slants 
:v. tr.
:To give a direction other than perpendicular or horizontal to; make diagonal; cause to slope: She slants her letters from :upper right to lower left. 
:To present so as to conform to a particular bias or appeal to a certain audience: The story was slanted in favor of the :strikers. 

:v. intr.
:To have or go in a direction other than perpendicular or horizontal; slope.

:n. 

:A line, plane, course, or direction that is other than perpendicular or horizontal; a slope. 
:A sloping thing or piece of ground. 
:Printing. A virgule. 

:A personal point of view or opinion. 
:A bias. 
:Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a person of East Asian birth or descent. 

Even if there are parts of the English speaking world where this term is not offensive, in this international encyclopedia, I do think we could avoid this term in favour of another. Which is actually present in the article already. When I removed the sentence it made no difference to the information content of the article leading me to believe the sentence may have been added as vandalism of some kind which lead me (without adequate thought) to mark it as a minor edit. - I do accept that this was an error on my part and which could amount to deception which I don't approve of in other people and I apologise for doing it in this case.--Hontogaichiban 12:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually having just reviewed what was actually written, I removed it primarily because in the way it is used in the article it is just plain wrong. The article does not say that "slanted eyes" is a colloquial description, it states factually that <various features> do give the appearence of slanted eyes. This is simply incorrect.--Hontogaichiban 12:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I have moved the phrase into its own section, although it does seem out of proportion to the rest of the article. Also please feel free to edit this if you feel it could be written better.--Hontogaichiban 13:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I see that. I appreciate the edit was made in good faith. I would point out that:

• The term has reasonably wide currency (111,000 pages on Google);
• The offensive slang marker is attached to "slant" as a noun, which I would consider highly offensive. "Slanted eyes" I would term less so.
• We do have a list of ethnic slurs, wherein:

  • Slant-Eye, Slit-Eye, Slant, Slant-Eyed Devil, Slant-Eyed Demon 

    (UK Commonwealth & U.S.) a person of Asian descent

Further, I would contend that (a) the term(s) should be explained, and (b) they should be explained here. And that holds especially if the terms carry an incorrect assumption. -- EdC 17:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I will add Slit-eyed to the article and a link to the list of ethnic slurs. Fortunatley I have not heard the other terms list in use in the UK at least and so won't bother to add them here. If you feel they should be included feel free to add them. Cheers.--Hontogaichiban 01:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major resectioning

I have resectioned the whole article for clarity's sake. I hope that this structure is better. I'm sure it needs some tidying up though etc...--Hontogaichiban 13:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Err...

It is primarily a cosmetic procedure, though it may increase the horizontal range of the eye[citation needed].

Yeah, really need a citation here. How could the fold increase the eye's horizontal range if it doesn't cover any part of the pupil?

[edit] Question...but don't get offended by it....

The article says that the epicanthal fold is seen in young children before the bridge of the nose begins to elevate. Is that why East Asian people have flat noses? (204.168.120.163)

[edit] I don't understand.

The diagrams use arrows pointing to different locations of the face, and the png image shows a girl with no apparent crease in her eye whatsoever. I still have no clue what this mythical "fold" is. This encyclopedia page does work.

I agree. Eventhough I know what an epicanthic fold is it isn't well defined here and definately not through the pictures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.213.87.141 (talk) 13:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Having read the article over and over (apart from having read descriptions of it in books years ago) and viewed Image:Young_woman_with_dimples.JPG, Image:Brushfield_spots.jpg, and Image:Epicanthal_fold.jpg, well, it's as if the article presented totally opposite descriptions of what an epicanthal fold is. One picture shows what I think is a "double eyelid", the other a "single eyelid", and the last one looks like something in between. So what is an epicanthal fold, really? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.213.182.204 (talk) 08:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Khoisan?

I'm wondering about the accuracy of this part. This is OR so far, but it looks to me as if Khoisan eyes don't fit the description of the epicanthic fold. They have no upper eyelid crease, but the fold goes the other way, covering the outer corner rather than the inner corner of the eye. See, for instance, the portraits at [2]. 82.25.232.106 12:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)