Talk:Epic poetry

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Added The Ballad of the White Horse by G K Chesterton APAULCH 21:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Rearranged a lot of stuff, separated out prose epics (and others) without deleting entries, divided main poetic epic section into ancient/medieval/modern while retaining century divisions, and added in a good many titles. 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

Contents

[edit] Epic vs. Lyric

Some of the material on here is undeniably poetry (and long poetry at that); but is it all epic poetry? It would be worthwhile examining some of the less-well-known poems here (where they're accessible) to see if they fit the definition. While any two adjacent categories always have some dubious in-between items, most epic poetry is pretty clearly definable: does it narrate a series of interesting events? That's epic poetry, even if in addition to the story told there is an allegorical, philosophical, or political point. Or is the poem primarily an expression of the poet's thought, whether emotional, philosophical, or critical, to which the narrative -- if any -- is totally subordinate? That's lyric poetry. Wordsworth's Prelude, while it does pass through a series of biographical events, seems to me not to be about those events, but rather uses them as a framework to expound his thoughts on this and that. And while I'd be hesitant to confine epic solely to poems that treat of battles, marvellous journeys, and deeds of errantry, I'm also rather of the opinon that Wordsworth's own life was not up to the level of epic interest. :) 68.100.18.183 04:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic

I cut this external link - he is only asking for *voluntary* contributions, but still, it doesn't belong on the list of epics. --MichaelTinkler

external links:


I don't think this qualifies as epic:

1910s: The Silmarillion by J. R. R. Tolkien (fictive mythology of Middle-earth)

Is there somewhere else it can go? Maybe List of books Tolkien wrote before and as background for Lord of the Rings? Ouch, my head hurts. Atorpen 23:52 Jan 25, 2003 (UTC)


As it certainly does fit the dictionary definition, I assume you mean it doesn't qualify as notable epic poetry. While that's debatable, based on the popularity of Tolkien's works I'd have to answer yes. On a side note, that other category would more correctly be List of books Tolkien's publisher wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, forcing him to write the Lord of the Rings instead :-). Mkweise 00:24 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)

A moot point; it doesn't count as poetry either way.

People seem to be missing the point: The Silmarillion is written entirely in prose. Epic or not, popular or not, it's not epic poetry, and so this is the wrong page for it.

--- I can't find anything on The Law of Fives by Tristan Parker, cited as a 21st century epic. I'm not confident enough about it to remove it, though.

I have deletes The Law of Fives and Ballad of the White Horse: the former because I can find no evidence of its existence, the latter because it is a narrative poem, not an epic. The Silmarillion is not a poem at all. Bmills 10:29, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I have also removed Dante and Spenser, as their poems were allegories, not epics. Bmills 10:40, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've changed the statement that the Mahabharata is the largest literary work in hiistory. The two sites stated below show that the tibetan Epic of Gesar (which currently has no record in wikipedia) is the largest (three times the size of the Mahabharata).

http://www.tibet-china.org/newbook/englishhtml/gesare.html http://web.utk.edu/~jftzgrld/MBh1Home.html

Risk one 03:38, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)


---

Wouldn't Dante's Divine Comedy qualify as an epic poem? I always have considered it as such.

--- 1316 is a very precise date for the writing of Mahabharata. Any evidence for this? Zeimusu 13:43, 2004 Oct 31 (UTC)


The Silmarillion is not poetry; however, Tolkien did write an epic poem (though it was unfinished) called The Lay of Leithian. It was written over the course of five years, and contains several thousand lines. But should it be mentioned here, because it was unfinished? --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Epic

I was just wondering why there isn't any mention of the nomadic epics from Central Asia turk influenced civilization (for example Ouighur, Turkmenish, Kazakh).

I found a comprensive book on the matter ("comparative studies on heroes and epics in Central Asia" recently edited in english from a Chinese house, from the top of my head). I however, do not possess the book anymore, but it mentions many old epics, along with both tibetan and mongolian Gesar/Gisor, they talked about 4-5 different central asian epics (from kazak, ouighur, turkmen and other population i can't recall) including short transcripts of the oral texts in both, native language and translated.

So if anyone know about them, i will be very interested to learn more...

[edit] Copyvio image

The image from the mahabharata was copyrighted. It could be used in an article of commentary on the image, (but is probably not notable enough for that) but it may not be used to decorate this article. Zeimusu | Talk page 12:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Koroglu, legendary warrior, subject of many epics in Turkic literature. Folk poetry, Turkish Epic poetry.

[edit] Narrative vs. Epic

I think the Narrative vs. Epic section was a rather nice touch to this page. Why was it removed? I think the information should be back, but under a different title than Narrative vs. Epic (or whatever it was).

[edit] Oral poetry

I've removed this for making no sense: "In the modern era, as oral composition of poetry has fallen out of favor, epics have increasingly been written in prose." The point of the sentence pre-alteration was that long poems in general are currently unfashionable. The change utterly destroys that point, from something which is reasonable to something which is simply false; the oral, even spontaneous composition of (short) poetry is very much alive and well, and not just in non-literate societies. See Performance poetry and Slam poetry.

[edit] Prose?

I see prose items being added here. Should we be renaming the article or creating another?

I dumped a lot of the prose items (or items I could tell were prose) down at the bottom of the page, under the heading "Prose Epic" (this is a recurring problem afflicting all of the "epic" pages, but is obviously most serious in a page called Epic poetry). Probably this should ultimately be made into a new page by itself: "Prose Epic", or "Epic Prose", or something like that. The obvious problem is that it can easily get weighed down with anything that somebody wants to call "epic"; basically, every hefty summer novel wants to be known as an "epic" work. See the question about The Silmarillion above -- though I admit it has a somewhat better claim than other things on the prose list. Moby Dick is a great, wonderful novel; but it is not an "epic". 68.100.18.183 04:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)RandomCritic
I like how you moved the prose epics to a new section. That's a great idea. However, I have to disagree re: Moby-Dick. Scholars often classify that novel as epic; for instance, see Sounding the Whale: Moby-Dick as Epic Novel, by Christopher Sten. Or search Google for "moby dick epic". You'll see a lot of hits. Rsgranne 31 January 2006
Well, it may be an "epic novel", but I don't think it's "an epic". Anyway, as long as there's a section on "prose epic" there's no particular need to arbitrate the question. I see that "The Lord of the Rings" has been proposed as a "prose epic" in the opening paragraph so I'm moving that down there as well. I just hope we don't end up with "The Bridges of Madison County" there as well. RandomCritic 08:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Epos

Epos redirects here, but there is no explanation on what this term means or its origins. Obviously it's a synonym, but it's probably worth mentioning. —Michiel Sikma, 18:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WorldChronicle.net

Is this an appropriate external link? -proteus71 18:22, 05 Sept 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions: isn't that an Epic?

[edit] Manas Epic from Kyrgyzstan

Someone HAS TO put in this topic something about the MANAS epic from Kyrgyzstan. Anthropologists and linguists credit this poem as being the longest known poem in human history. It was not transcribed until the mid 1900s (not sure exactly when but it was an extensive project). Unlike all these other epics the Manas epic has shaped the identity of an entire ethnic group so it is rather important (in addition to being much longer than any other epic). The people who passed this story down orally had to go through decades of apprenticeship before they were allowed to tell the story and a recitation can take more than a week.

Be bold and have that someone be you. You have seen Manas (epic) I'm sure John (Jwy) 01:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Goethe's Faust

Isn't Faust an epic? I thought it was. Where is it in the page?

The last edition that removed Goethe's Faust putted that it is a "dramatic poem", and not an "epic poem". --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
And that was correct. --Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fenian Cycle

What about the Fenian Cycle from Irish mythology? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] De Rerum Natura

And "On the Nature of Things", written by Lucretius in the first century BC? --Leonardo T. de Oliveira 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Not an epic. The following misleading text was entered, I suppose, simply to reassure the bunny-rabbits: "As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such." Epic does not just mean "big" ("...went off with an epic bang") and it does not include Xena Warrior Princess. The result of this kindergarten reassurance exhausts all meaning from the word and feeds library-deprived crackerbarrel literary chatter.--Wetman 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Many classicists understand De Rerum Natura as an epic poem, of the specific sort known as didactic epic. Other examples would be Hesiod's Works and Days. Not every classicist would agree, of course; the definition of "epic" isn't straightforward. Still, I'd say that De Rerum Natura ought to be on the list. (for a reference, see this review of Monica Gale's Lucretius and the Didactic Epic. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ovid's Metamorphoses

Ovid's Metamorphoses is an epic. I quote the Oxford Classical Dictionary entry on Ovid: "An unorthodox epic in fifteen books, Ovid's only surviving work in hexameters, composed in the years immediately preceeding his exile in AD 8." The Metamorphoses bends the genre of epic, to be sure, but it is still considered an epic by almost any classicist. In fact, many classicists consider any long work in hexameters to be an epic, since definitions based on the content of the poems can't cover the full range of ancient epic from the Iliad to the poem of Parmenides to Aratus' Phaenomena to Works and Days. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This special pleading needs to be incorporated into the article rather than adding the Metamorphoses to an empty list, which will confuse the Simple. --Wetman 17:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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