User talk:Epf

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Welcome/Bienvenue/Benvenuto to my talk page, say whatever you want as long as it is fairly clean and in English, Scots, French, Italian or Napoletano.

Fairly soon, my Italian will be at near-native level and my proficiency in Napoletan dialect is increasing at the same time as a result (as well as the fact that my family speaks Abruzzese dialect of Napoletano). I am also currently learning, albeit very slowly, the basics of Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig), but avoid speaking anything other than the five above.

Contents

[edit] Image:IMG 4268.jpg

Hi, could you please add a little bit about why you claim that anybody can use this photo for any purpose? I'm afraid I can't find any such statement on the website, VirtualCivilWar. Regards, Thuresson 04:08, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I worked at the Old Fort Erie historical site for quite a few summers and and have contacts with the current management there. I also keep in touch with some reenactors who come for various historical events there during the summer. Mike Lynaugh, the person who took this photograph, assured me in an e-mail that it is copyrighted and available for use on other web pages provided he is accredited. Epf 22:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian people

Hi Evan :-) Luckly, we don't need a list of famous Italians under Italian people, because a seperate article which records notable Italians already exist under List of Italians. But the list desperately needs working on, so contributing to it would be much appreciated. Bye, and don't have problems sending me a message if you want help or advice! Aldux 22:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

My name is Mike Lynaugh and I am the photographer of the photograph in question, it is ok that it is displayed here, permission was requested. It is also true that it is ok for people to display my photograph if they like, provided they give me credit as the photographer. If you have any further concerns, please feel free to contact me at mike@mikelynaugh.com

Mike

[edit] France

The 40% figure comes from a study by INED.

  Chronique de l'immigration : les populations d'origine étrangère en France métropolitaine / Michèle Tribalat. - tabl.
  Enquête "Mobilité géographique et insertion sociale" 
  Sujet spécial du "Vingt-cinquième rapport sur la situation démographique de la France"
  Bibliogr.
   Population, revue de l'INED, n° 1, janvier-février 1997, p. 163-219

This study is not available online. You can find a mention of the fact that more than a third of people born in France between 1880 and 1980 had foreign parents of grandparents here. Hardouin 13:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

My nationality or ethnicity is totally irrelevant. INED is a very serious research institute. As for Quid, it is a trusted reference encyclopedia, and your accusations of bias are a bit bizarre. Finally, the 40% figure is not at all "ludicrous". So many French people have foreign ancestry: Henri Krasucki had Polish ancestry, Yves Montand Italian ancestry, Charles Aznavour Armenian ancestry, Edouard Balladur Armenian ancestry, Nicolas Sarkozy Hungarian ancestry, Baron de Rotschild German Jewish ancestry, Irène Joliot Curie Polish ancestry, General de Gaulle Irish ancestry, Charlotte Gainsbourg English ancestry and Ukrainian Jewish ancestry, the list is very long. Hardouin 15:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Should note that several of the ancestry in these people is to a lesser degree than their respective French ancestries and these are a minor example of certain noteworthy French people. Also, the INED and Quid sources are non-existent on the France and France Demographics pages amd Quid is not a trusted reference encyclopedia considering their facts on ethnicity have no reference/source.

I see you also deleted the fact that this figure is comparable to North America. It is. The figure says 40% of French people have ancestors who were not living in France in 1850. Please remember that a good deal of the ancestors of Americans and Canadians were already living in these countries in 1850. For instance in Canada 25% of the population descends from French Canadian who were already in Canada in 1850. A good deal of Canadians with English and Irish ancestry had also their ancestors already in Canada in 1850. Same in the US. So the fact that 40% have ancestors who were not present in France in 1850 is quite comparable to North America. Hardouin 15:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The date 1850 is already specified, if you care to read in detail. You say all Americans and Canadians have foreign ancestors. But so is the case in France! If you go back long enough in time, everybody in every country have ancestors from abroad. So it's a bit silly to say that. 1850 is a relevant date, because that's when modern migration to France started. Hardouin 16:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

All French have foreign ancestors ? Everybody in every country have ancestors from abroad ? Obviously this guy Hardouin has a multi-racialist and assimilationist political agenda. The French language originated from the indigenous French peoples, not the 19th century migrants. The indigenous French people trace their ancestry in France back over a thousand years. Non-native peoples in the Americas can only trace their ancestry back there 400 years at best, and thats only a small minority who have an ancestor in America before the massive migrations of the 18th-20th centuries.

France takes its very name from an invading people (Germanic). Its language is classified by relationship to a previous invading / overruling people (Romance, from Roman). French language reflects this history, which is not "indigenous". Celtic persistance from an earlier population exists only at the margins, and one might debate the indigeneity of the Celts as well. Do you have a racialist / racial "purist" and separatist agenda? Such labels are not helpful & you should not confuse your own point of view with NPOV please. Ngwe 06:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Spanish people page

I was going to make some demographic changes on that page and you're right that if it's going to be about Castilians it's all gotta change as there were many different people from Spain who went to the Americas. Actually the picture with Loyola has to be changed as he was not Castilian. Tombseye 22:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese people

True, the numbers of Portuguese with lighter hair and eyes isn't occasional. My main concern was the statement that there wasn't a typical Portuguese "look" when the majority of indigenous Portuguese are a Western/Iberian Mediterranean type, even with those of lighter hair and eyes. Epf

Agreed! The Ogre 18:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
What is "a Western/Iberian Mediterranean type" please? Can you describe this putative typical Portugese "look"? Assuming for the sake of argument your "majority of indigenous" statement can make sense & that discounting phenotypical features which undermine your generalization (hair and eye color) is somehow legitimate intellectually, what do you do with the indigenous minority who aren't what you call "typical" -- are they not really Portuguese somehow? Why do you employ terminology derived from the discredited racial science of the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Ngwe 07:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  • A "Western Iberian type" is that "racial type" (based on phenotypic and cranio-facial features) identified by 20th cent. physical anthropologists and is supposedly a major "racial" element in the indigenous population of the Iberian peninsula. I disagree with the whole tpyical classification since it is far to ogeneral and ignores the fact that all indigenous peoples of Iberia share certain elements and it is impossible to label some belonging to a "distinct" certain type and others not. There are obviously a minority of indigenous Portuguese who may have lighter complexions or eye/hair colour, but that does not mean they don't share other (and more important) cranio-facial traits associated with all indigenous Portuguese of the dominant Western/Iberian or Atlanto-Mediterranean "types" as it once was put before the development of population genetics. I employ elements of accepted studies by some 20th cent. physical anthropologists that are only now being resurfaced again (and correlated) with the development of populaton genetics. They've only been discredited by a minority of academics who support some assimilationist and "ethnic nihilist" POV. Ciao, Epf 19:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scottish people

Excuse me, please don't revert other users without discussion - you do not own that page. It does not look overcrowded on my page. Your opinion is subjective. You are free to make the images smaller if you like. Many paths are open. If you revert me, without discussion, I can do exactly the same back. You see why this may cause problems? :) - Calgacus 20:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Buddy, are you like not reading my statements on the history tab for the article ? Look at ALL the other ethnic group sites, they all have no more than 4 photos. The article looks terrible with the number you have on there and the photos will be too small if they get any smaller. All the other sites go with four photos or less of that size or one large photo and that is the norm amongst these articles. Trust me, I know, the only pages I focus on are ethnic groups. If you want to put more photos, put them on the LIST of Scottish people or list of famous Scottish people articles. Ciao, Epf 20:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Do you really want David Hume there instead of Sean Connery ? Sean Connery is like probably the most famous Scotsman currently alive and he's also been knighted.
Chum, I don't give a monkeys how many the other pages have. You were one revert from breaking the three revert rule. I decided I wasn't going to push it. David Hume was recently voted by Scottish academics as the greatest Scotsman ever. Sean Connery is an entertainer. You decide. - Calgacus 20:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


Well pal, Connery is the most popular Scottish person in our world today, especially to those who arent one bit Scottish or dont give two craps about Scotland. I know David Hume is a very famous Scot but I was thinking about putting at least one modern famous Scottish person there. Also, you should care about norms in certain articles so that the encyclopedia can get some continuity in types of articles. I mean c'mon, the article was looking real messy and simply not up to standards. By the way, whats this only 3 reverts allowed BS ? Epf 21:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Would you STOP switching 'related ethnic groups' back to 'english, cornish, welsh' ... etc. This is totally nonsensical! Technically these aren't even separate ethnic groups. Living in England as opposed to Scotland for example doesn't mean you're a different ethnicity, race, culture. These identities are regional and not grounded in genetics. The people of Britain have common ancestors and have been influenced strongly from north west Europe. The article as it pertains to a Scottish ethnicity itself is contentious but even having a 'related ethnic groups' serves a nationalist agenda, not a factual one.

First of all, the study of population genetics is very early in development and is a long way from being considered fully reliable to be included in ethnographic studies. Even if you use this information to support your claims, the results so far have only been on the Y-chromosome which is passed down paternally from the father, grandfather, and so on. This means that no information regarding the equally important maternal line AS WELL as the maternal line of chromosomes (x-chromosomes) which are also passed down paternally. If you wish to read more into this, please check out the article Celt as well as on population genetics.
Secondly, just because two ethnic groups may be related genetically doesn't constitute that they are the same "people" or ethnicity. The different peoples of the British Isles have separate cultures and to a lesser degree, languages. The history of each of the home nations is also different from each other and very few Scots, Welsh, Irish, and English would declare that they are the same people. Also, to say the Frisians, other Germanic peoples and the peoples of northwestern Europe as a whole are the same people as the British is another large fallacy as the differences between these peoples (culturally, historically, or even based on some of the findings of Y-chromosomes) is also quite different. The articles in wikipedia stick to only facts which have some verifiability and have been agreed by a majority of readers of a certain article, not to one person's POV. Please discuss this in the discussion section of Scottish people or another related article, notably Celt. Cheers, Epf 12:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish people

Hi, I see user 70.30.71.252 has deleted your link to scotchnet because scotchnet.com is not a primary source. census reports speak for themselves. people select ancestries they identify with. americans were able to select irish, scottish and scotch-irish. This makes little sense, the policy on no original research clearly states that both primary and secondary sources are acceptable for verifiability. I would encourage you to put your link back in. Maybe you could re-phrase it to say that the US data may also contain people of Scottish descent or something. This would be nice and neutral and would be supported by a source. One of the problems with people who don't set up a user page is that they cannot be contacted. I also find it galling when people give these sort of reasons for a deletion or edit when they obviously do not know the policy for inclusion, in effect creating their own, more stringent criteria for inclusion. Cheers, Alun 06:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have left a message for user 70.30.71.252 on Talk:Irish people. I do not know what the relative merits of the scotchnet website are, but it does seem to be the case that this user is simply trying to exclude this information just because he disagrees with it, it really does contradict the spirit of wikipedia. I don't know if this user will read the message, but the talk page seems to me to be the correct place to sort this out. This user is obviously loooking for an excuse to remove this material (hence the fact that he has had to keep changing the reasons for removal). I think the best thing is to try to come to some sort of agreement on the wording of this, rather than just keep reverting all the time.

Alun 07:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Jkelly 21:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Epf. Thanks for your note on my talk page. I changed the number from the total population of the island or Ireland, as I suggested on the Talk:Irish people page. The total population figure included, in particular, people who would consider themselves British, as well as all the other ethnic groups, and represents the worst figure we have available. I do not personally like the Ireland-born figure either, but it is better than trying to qualify the total population figure with who it does and does not include. WRT your other changes in the Irish people infobox, I think the qualifications and links that have been added recently belong in the footnotes. WRT the foreign-born Irish in Ireland, I look forward to seeing any figures you can produce. Keep up the good work. zzuuzz (talk) 13:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response to comments by An Siarach on his page

Religion which might legitimately class as having strong/unique ethnic ties are very rare , none of which are pertinent with regard to Scots. Etymology is part of language which goes back to the importance of language ( and the lack of any knowledge of the Scottish language by most who would call themselves 'Scots' or claim scottish ethnicity) . Familial ties do not make one anything other than what one is. Social-behavioural characteristics are cultural traits and disappear (obviously) with the loss of ones language and culture. Genetic and physical traits are completely irrelevant except to racists and others who espouse related similarly repulsive doctrines. I havent disputed that ones ancestry 'is where you come from' - this has no bearing on the fact that having a scottish/french/carthaginian/martian/divine ancestor does not make you scottish/french/carthaginian/martian or divine. The laughable claims you mention by 'geneticists' isnt worthy of consideration and you should stick to valid, proven, science if you wish to be taken seriously in any conversation. The 50,000 speakers of Scottish gaelic are the only people who can still speak the Scottish language and thus have a tangible tie to native/ethnic Scottish culture. The Scots language is irrelevant and you provide the reason why yourself ; as you say it is related to Old English/Anglo-Saxon and the Scots are not an English/Anglo-Saxon people. Lowland 'Scots' may refer to itself as 'Scots' but this does not make it 'Scottish' any more than the Spanish speaking population of America could give Spanish the status of 'English' and themselves the status of 'Anglo-Saxon' if they started to refer to it as such. Where on earth do i say that the population of Scotland lack a distinct cultural identity? All i have pointed out is that the great majority lack an ethnically Scottish (which is obviously to say celtic/gaelic) identity and simply cannot qualify as ethnically Scottish as they are, and their culture/language is, Anglo-Saxon. An Siarach

I wrote the following in response to the comment by An Siarach seen above (also on her discussion page). I think it is worth a read for anyone interested in ethnicity/connecting with their roots because it outlines the search for identity/ethnicity many people in the new world strive with (in this case regarding Scottish ethnicity):


Hi An Siarach ! Before I start, I want you to realize I don't need you to tell me how to be taken seriously in any conversation and to please lose the negative/insulting connotation in this argument.

To begin with what you said about genetics, I just stated simply that some geneticists believe in a THEORY of inherited memories/experiences and I don't consider it ridiculous since we still dont know what the function of the majority of our genes are and many theories are possible until we have mastered the science of genetics.

Also, you can't simply say that to be "ethnically Scottish" is to be celtic/gaelic considering the history of the people consists of very important Germanic and unkown (Picts) influences. Gaelic culture/language may be an important factor but it isn't the only determining factor of Scottish ethnicity. Lowland Scots are of Anglo-Saxon origin since the land was conquered by the Kindom of Northumbria and their culture integrated with that of the Scotti and Picts to form Scotland. To say the the Irish Scotti cultural element is the only factor or a more imporant factor than the Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian (Norse) determining if someone is ethnically Scottish is quite ethnocentric.

As for people with Scottish roots in the new world and elsewhere, you can't just simply lose where you come from. It is true that many people forget the Gaelic or Lowland Scots languages but you disregard the other elements too easily. Genetics and physical features still give an indication of ones origin and just because one is interested in this, it does NOT make one a racist/racial supremacist (hence the rising popularity of population genetics).

In terms of religion, it can be related to ethnicity (as you seem to agree) and the large amount of protestants in the US is clearly a result of many peoples with northern European roots, but there are particulary large numbers of Presbyterians (notably from Scotland, Ulster or the Netherlands) and Lutherans (Germany).

Familial ties and etymology are quite imporant because not everybody in the world can trace their family (and family name) back to Scotland, unless you have some degree of Scottish or Ulster-Scots ancestry (obviously the more you have the more connection you will have with the country of origin). I am also not stating that someone who is like 1/16 Scottish ancestry can be declared Scottish, but I'm talking about a person who can trace a significant proportion of his/her roots to Scotland and the Scottish ethnic group. Since most of the Scottish/Ulster Scots emigrated within the past 300 years, you cant compare their Scottish ancestry with the origin of all European peoples dating back thousands of years.

Next, social/behavoural traits. These are not lost as easily as ones language is and not all of these traits can be simply defined as cultural. It is widely documented by most psychologists and sociologists just how imporant ones upbringing (especially earlier years) can be and just how much it will affect he/she in later life. Even if someone has "lost" all of their cultural/familial roots (which is hard to imagine unless one is adopted), certain behavioural characteristics are passed down to each generation by ones parents/grandparents and a large part of your personality is derived from them.

To summarize, although the surviving cultural traits become less distinguishable, many still remain and the more Scottish or whatever ancestry one can claim, the higher the possiblity of one having more inherited cultural and other traits. In former British colonial countries like the USA, Canada, Australia etc., much of the political and cultural origins of the nation can be derived from the original British migrants and to say that the people have "lost" all elements of where they came from is something millions of people strongly disagree with. As the peoples mixed together in these places, the ancestral and cultural traits became more diluted but of the millions of those people with Scottish ancestry, many of them have much more than 1/16 ancestry and in fact the large majority could claim at least 1/2 or more when the ancestries of both sides of the family are taken into account. I look forward to continuing the discussion. As one would say (I think) in the highlands, Mar sin leat, Epf 15:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Response to An Siriach's reply on her page to my original comments above:

Response:

Wow. ok, I am admitting, you have hit an area that you did not want to touch. Also, please, enough with the negative and insulting connotation. I can't believe you have attributed ehtnicity to having to speak the language. WOW. You are saying genetics are irrelevant in the case of ethnicity. WOW. I am making a note to you now that I will spend every Wikipedia moment I have to debate this with you unless you stop discussing this with such a closed mind. Speaking Scottish Gaelic is not a "must" for being of Scottish ethnicity and you speak of a massive lie. The fact you think people automatically lose their ethnicity just because they no longer speak the language is ludicrous. I told you about how social/behavioural customs continue down each family line and make us unique. There are so many elements to culture and identity besides language and no matter how much it has been diluted you can't lose all of the traits of the main ethnic origin of you and your family.

I will first start with the impact of the Anglo-Saxon/Lowland Scots culture. Their impact is quite large and it merged (although not very smoothly and unformly equal) with that of the Highland Scots to create Scotland and the Scottish people. You also can't say that the Scots were native and the Anglo-Saxons weren't when they both came into certain parts of Caledonia around the same time period (the Gaels came from Ireland in the 5th and 6th centuries while the Angles wee moving into Lothian around the late 6th century). The only group which was native was the Picts who were culturally assimilated by the Scots and Anglo-Saxons. I do acknowledge the Lowland/Highland divide has obviously been important in Scottish history, but as to which is more Scottish is just futile. Both had a large impact on Scottish culture. Also, the Scotti can be described as being descended from "Irish" since that is where they originated from just as the Anglo-Saxons of the Lowlands originated from England (and earlier northwest Germany). The word "Scotia" literally meant in Latin "land of the Gaels" and even King Robert I of Scotland during the Wars of Independence used the terms "Scotia Maiora" for Ireland and "Scotia Minora" for Scotland (The Scots word for Highlanders, Erse, literally means Irish). The Highland Scots are mainly the descendants of the Irish tribe who invaded the northern island of Britain (Caledonia) in 5th and 6th centuries. In your view, the only true modern Scots are those who speak Gaelic and that is quite ridiculous in most peoples opinions (including mine). Scottish culture is a fusion of both the Gaelic, Anglo-Saxon and, to a smaller degree, Norse cultures, but is more prevalent in ceratin areas (the Highlands--> Gaelic, Lowlands--> Anglo-Saxon, Orkneys/Shetlands--> Norse). For example, Gaelic customs (like the clan system) can be easily be found in Lowland Scots cultural areas just as the Scottish Gaelic language has had significant influences from the Scots language and old Norse (compared to the original Gaelic spoken in the Ireland, especially in Munster and Connacht).

"But how on earth else would one determine what is ethnically Scottish other than by the ethnic Scots" ?

According to you, I supppose the only true ethnic Scots are the Irish since you apparently refute the cultural influences of the Lowland Anglo-Saxon Scots and the blending of the cultures of Scotland.

In terms of ancestry, you have some very controversial opinions and are largely your own POV.

"As pointed out Lowland Scots is irrelevant with regard to ethnic Scottishness. Genetics, as previously pionted out, is irrelevant. Being interested in genetics does not make one a racist but tying undue importance to it serves no purpose other than either phony ethnicism or that of a racist cause."

These claims are ridculous and not backed up by anything other than your ethnocentric opinions. Huh, kinda reminds me of how you described my POV:

"You obviously do need to be told how to be taken seriously if you are putting forward unproven theories which few would take seriously to support your own arguments."

Anyways, who are you to decide what is irrelevant and what isn't ? Are you the divine creator of Scotland and the World ? Genetics can be of great value to studying ethnic groups as it again reveals origins, possible shared history with other groups as well as the impact of invasions/settlements of other peoples on an ethnic group. You are also claiming that the Egyptians are merely Arabs and don't have a unique ethnic identity. This is ridculous and the influence of the ancient Egyptians can't just be limited to physical/genetic chacteristics because Egyptians do have a quite distinct identity within the larger Arab world (same goes for Northwest African Arab-Berbers) just as ethnic Indonesian groups, Filipinos and Coastal Malays (Malaysia and Sumatra) have distinct identities within the very large Malay cultural world. Obviously I agree that when the descendants of Scots in the new world or wherever lost their language (Scots or Gaelic) and many aspects of their culture and customs (varying degrees of traditons and customs do remain with many families) they no longer could be declared the "same people" as an ethnic Scotsman back in Scotland. However, like I said, many things do remain such as religion, social/behavioural traits, and ancestral/familial ties to people in Scotland or Ulster and of course genetic and physical characteristics (even if you consider them irrelevant).

"Religion is utterly irrelevant here though it might be different if the American Presbyterian population maintained worship with Gaelic Psalms and other truly Scottish features."

Presbyterianism is a very imporant part of Scottish culture, hence the Church of Scotland (largest denomination in Scotland) being a Presbyterian church ! Just as the majority of English (at one time anyway) are/were Anglican (so many atheists now). Presbyterianism was also prevalent in Holland but alot of its origins are very much tied to Scotland. The large amount of Presbyterianism in the US is without doubt because of the millions of people of Scottish and Ulster Scots/Scotch-Irish descent.

"Millions of people in the UK have names of a Norman origin. Does that make them Norman? Of course it doesnt. Have a surname which is MacAnything doesnt make you Scottish and only a fantasist would claim otherwise. It doesnt matter how closely one can trace their roots to Scotland unless one is in posession of Scottish language and culture which is clearly not the case with the VAST majority of those claiming Scottish ethnicity or descent."

Another one of your "proven theories" which many people take "seriously" right ? WOW. Those Norman names go back 1,000 years and the Normans were few in number when they conquered Britain and (just as with the Normans in Sicily) were absorbed by the British population. When you have a Scottish surname you may or may not be able to trace a signifcant amount of ancestry to Scotland but in most cases, people can because they have more Scottish familial linkage besides that from their surname. People who have signifcant amounts of Scottish ancestry can be considered to be descended from ethnic Scots and depending on how they identify thmeselves, ethnic Scots (even if different from those in the homeland). I also told you, many people do retain many traits which pertain to ethnicity and yes a large portion have lost the language and/or varying amoutns of traditonal customs, but that does not mean they can't be considered Scottish whatsoever or unable to reconnect with their roots. In your view, does this mean a Chinese person who's born in Scotland and learns the language and customs is now ethnically Scottish and not Chinese ??? Or are you for example ethnically English as much as Scottish because "you speak the language and are in possession of its culture" ?

"Agreed that behavioural traits do tend to outlast langauge but they are comparatively insignificant and do not long outlast the loss of language and of culture. Social/behavioural characteristics are defined by the society and culture into which one is born and raised and there is no surviving Scottish society in the USA,"

These traits are hardly insignificant and though less distinguishable from other customs and language, are still quite important. Yes, many chacteristics are defined by our surrounding culture but so much of our traits, traditions, personality and how we interact with the society/culture is derived from our upbringing and interaction with those who we spend most of our childhood with and are closest to us which most of the time is our family. So many familes here in Canada nad the US have their own traditions and customs passed down for generations. My family for example has many traditional gatherings and customs passed down from my Great Grandparents who immigrated from Italy. I also acknowledge a degree of my personal traits to my Grandpa (who i grew up around alot as a child) and his grandparents were from the lower Scottish Highlands (the Grahams of/near Loch Katrine) and he has acknowledged how he shared some of them with his father and mother and so forth.

There may be no surviving "scottish society" if what you mean is the majority popualtion of a certain area being ethnic Scottish (exception of Nova Scotia in Canada). However, there are areas where Scottish influence is most detectable, most notably Nova Scotia in Canada where both Highlanders and Lowlanders settled; Kentucky, Tennessee and anywhere throughout the southern appalachian mountains area in the US really where both Highlanders and Lowland Scots heavily settled and is especially detectable in the local accent and customs; various ethnic Scottish towns across both countries, notable a town called Fergus in Ontario, Canada, home of the largest Highland Games in the country. Also, Highland Games, Celtic, Scottish and Ulster-Scots festivals events take place all over both countries annually. There's even a very big one held every year in my hometown, Fort Erie, which is just south of Niagara Falls, Canada.

"To discuss something as unverifiable as this is utterly meaningless while qualifying ethnicity on the basis of something tangible like language is the only meaningful way of classing ethnicity."

You go on further to make claims that one is not English without speaking the language, one is not Japanese without speaking the language. I and practically all respected anthropologists think this is ridiculous as I have told you how cultural, social/behavioural, ancestral/familial, genetic, religious and physical characteristics also are part of ones connection with ethnicity. I mean under this classification, all 200 million or so Americans, and however million more people out there from Australia, Canada, wherever are all ethnic English because their native tongue and, in most cases, only language as well many cultural traits is English or Anglo-Saxon based ? The millions of Italians and Greeks around the world who are very pround of their culture and identity but dont speak their mother tongue aren't ethnic Italians or Greeks ? All of the recent immigrants and descendants of immigrants from the Asian sub-continent, Africa, Carribean, etc. in the UK who only speak English (or in rare cases Welsh) are only ethnic Scottish, Welsh or English ?

Thats all i'm going to say for now, but I don't want you to keep getting angry with this. I do enjoy discussing this. You should however put yourself in my shoes or the shoes of any American, Canadian, Brazilian, Australian,etc. who is descended from various immigrants and, according to your POV, has no ethnicity because our native tongue or only language is not of our very recent ancestors and that no part of who we are comes from them or their culture other than genetics. We see all these newer immigrants here who are allowed to speak their own languages wherever they want and get special status or help from the government while when our ancestors came here (especially if they were Irish catholics or from southern/eastern Europe) got treated only a little better slaves, unless your anccestors actually were African slaves. You are saying we've lost all of our ethnic traits ?, we have lost much but also have retained much and many, like me, are regaining even more as we connect more with where we come from. The way you desribe how to label ethnic groups and how you view those people in the new world, would mean that the people here are in a sense lost and have no concrete identity other than the vague and quite heterogenous tags of "American", "Canadian", "Australian", etc. which have very little ethnic commonality (unless one is of an indigenous native american or australian aborigine tribe).

Epf 21:11, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:An_Siarach"

[edit] Reply

Hi Epf,

I merged all the images into one with GraphicConverter. You can do it yourself with another similar program. --Khoikhoi 01:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have to say, a 3 out of 4 of the people that you picked are contemporary. It'd be nice if you could use articles like Tajiks and Persians as examples. --Khoikhoi 07:56, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unfounded accusation

Re: [User:Wobble], do not edit it again or u will face a penalty. I have never edited this addition to the Irish people article. In fact I have supporterd it's inclusion as a properly referenced and valid POV. Do not accuse me of doing things I have not done. I am very angry about your accusation, I would encourage you to get your facts straight before you make such accusations, the last edit I made to Irish peple was on the 30th of December 2005, and it was about Y-chromosome analysis. This was four days before you first included your information, it is very easy to check this sort of thing in the history tab. I am also angry about you threatening me. You should read the pages on wikiquette and especially assume good faith. I imagine an apology for your unfounded accusations is too much to ask for. Alun 06:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish people and User 70.30.71.252

User 70.30.71.252 has once again removed your edit. I have reverted it to it's original form. He seems determined to keep this information out, and has never attempted to justify his actions on the talk page. He claims the web site scotchirish.net is not deemed an appropriate as the content is considered anti-Irish and breeding with intolerance and ignorance in many fronts. I do not know the relative strengths or weaknesses of the website, but I do not think it is acceptable for a user to decide unilaterally that a site is an inappropriate source of information just because it contradicts their POV. He is likely to start an edit war. I have urged him not to remove the information until a proper consensus has been reached on the talk page. I am aware that he does not have a user page and therefore may ignore, or not see my message. If there is an edit war you may have grounds to go to arbitration. Alun 06:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, sorry if I over reacted about your text, I thought it was directed at me. I see user 70.30.71.252 has stopped deleting your edit, which is nice. It's a pity he/she doesn't leave his/her comments on the talk page, it would be easier to have an exchange of opinions there. He/She probably just doesn't know how to do it. It's very difficult to exchange ideas in the Edit summary box, and this is not really the place to go into detail. We should encourage him/her to register as a user and use the talk page more. By the way I have read some of your conversation with user An Siarach and couldn't agree more with you. I'm Welsh (and was fortunate enough to go to a Welsh language school), but non-Welsh speaking Welsh people would (rightly) be mightily offended by anyone claiming that ability to speak a language is the basis of ethnicity. All the best. Alun 06:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French ethnic

Epf, you have a lot of cliche about french. It is obvious for any french that your knowledges are surfaces. I'll try to give you some undeniable and undenied informations which could be useful for you. Felipeh | babla 22:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm currently specializing in anthropology at U of T and Felipeh doesn't know me well enough to understand my extensive historical and anthropolgical knowledge of the native European peoples. Epf 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, when you said, by exemple, in Talk:French people that we can see there is a common french culture because there is a "french cuisine" or that french nation was born with Charlemagne, it was quite amazing ! Felipeh | babla 20:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I meant that the beginnings of the political entity of the nation of France are considered by many to be with the death of Charlegmagne in 814AD. As for cuisine, I love Crepes and Poutine (even though Poutine is from Quebec I think) but I meant that cuisine is a factor in a common culture and that can be seen in France. Epf 20:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French nation

Officially, it is born in 1790-1792. Before that, there is a kingdom, absolute monarchy, in a kind of way France is private property of the king. There wasn't one nation, but many (see different languages in France, the main langue d'oc and langue d'oïl which are very distinct. Charlemagne wasn't a french king. After he died, his kingdom was shared between his sons, one part french speaking, and one other german speaking. Some people said that France and Germany were born but actually, it was only the first time that french and german were used in a treaty instead of latin. The kingdom which were create were Francie (country of Franks) Western for today's France and Eastern for today's Germany. After that, what is now France collapsed into many independent entities (Gascogne, Aquitaine, Provence, Bourgogne, Normandie, Bretagne, etc.). In 987, Hugues Capet was crowned king of the french. But at that time, french were the people who lived in France, and France was the area between Oise and Seine river at north of Paris. Until XIIIth century, the kings of France had control only on areas between Paris and Loire river, small area. In south of France, there was an equivalent independant power, count of Toulouse. He was defeated by french lords during the Albigense crusade. That's the first step of France in southern Gaul. Then, the kingdom grew, absorbing independant or foreign-led regions (Britanny, Provence, Gascogne, Burgundy, Artois, etc.). Until Louis XIV in 1661, there wasn't political identity in France, lords had lot of autonomy. The idea of french state is from that period, but there were lot of difference of degree of autonomy between region (pays d'Etat, pays de gouvernement). The idea of nation is formaly born in the french revolution. Centralisation during revolution was not a good thing for lot of regions outside Paris which rebeled: that was so in Britanny, Vendée, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Marseille, Lyon, Normandy, etc. As for all other european coutries, the idea of nation was particulary strong in XIXth century. Before that, as for other european countries, there were regional identities or political (allegiance to a king) identities, but not national identities. To summarize, there wasn't one nation identity in France (except if we say that France was parts of northern today's France around Paris) but there were regional identities or many nations (which were merged in french nation after revolution) identities. Felipeh | babla 22:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Although there were different lords and vassals of the French kings during the middle ages, Felipeh, you misunderstand my meaning of nation. There was indeed a nation among the ethnic French people and although differing regions had varied autonomy, the people and culture were very related. Nationlism did grow signifcantly in Europe in the 19th century but the peoples and cultures had existed as nations within Kingdoms/Empires since the early middle ages or longer. Most of the modern boundaries of France were incorporated into the Kingdom by the 16th century, however most of the lands of the langue d'oil peoples (the original ethnic French) had been unified into the Kingdom by the 13th century. The idea of a modern poltical union must not be confused with the idea of a national union of an ethnic group that overlaps political boundaries (see Basques, Frisians for modern examples). Epf
    • Well, I could say, that Occitania (or Gascogne, Guyenne, Languedoc, Provence, Auvergne, Limousin) was a nation, at least until French revolution. Former Langue d'Oïl speakers is about just half of today's french population. Felipeh | babla 20:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Agree with that completely as Occitania even today has a minor independence movement. However, it is currently debated whether they constitute an entirely distinct ethnic group from the ethnic French (langue d'oil peoples) or are ethnic French with some distinct cultural and especially lingustic differences. In a physical anthropolgical sense they are quite similar to the other French but obviously have strong mediterranean elements (see links below physical/genetics discussion). Epf 20:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Common genetics

Saying that french have common genetic ancestry is non-sense. Before the Celts came from Central Europe (VIIth before Christ, same time Greeks came from Mediterranean sea), there were Ligurian people. Ligurian lived in Western Europe : England, Germany, France, Spain, Italy. So, we also can say that Western European have a common ancestry, it's as relevant as to say french people have common ancestry. But it is a little bit more complicated. Romans arrived in south-east in IIth century before J.Christ, and J.César invaded what remainded of Gaul in 58/52 before J.C. At that time, Gaul was divided in about as tribes there are french departements now. And there were for main areas with specific "ethnicity": Aquitaine (south-west, Basques), Provincia (sout-east, Celts with strong presence of Romans and Greeks), Lugdunaise (center & north-west, Celts), Belgique (north & north-east, Celts & Germans). So, southern France have more ancestries in Iberic and Italian peninsula, while the northern France have more ancestries in Central and Northern France. During four centuries, Roman presence was much strong in south than in north. But, with the empire extended from Egypt to England, there was citizens (or slaves) of all these territories who migrated between different provinces, as in Gaul which was one of the most important provinces, specially for the implantation of legions. When the Roman empire collapsed, different germanic tribes invaded Gaul and created different kingdoms. Franks in north, Burgundians in east, Wisigoths in south and Bretons (Celts from England) in Britanny. Franks were stronger and bulit a kingdom which was almost the same size of today's France. So, the germanic influence was more important in north of France. Until Middle Ages, there wasn't a lot of mix between populations : regional people didn't move often outside of their area and they keeped their specific "ethnicity". By exemple: Basque people near Bayonne (linguistic area decreased a lot, but their ethnic influence was very strong in south-west) were very different from Languedocian near Toulouse (large cultural and gentic influence from Romans) ; between them, there are Gascons, who are as Basque as Languedocian (to resume). Note that this Basque people (who are one of the main important "ethnic component" of French) have an ethnic originality, by exemple they have a very strong level of blood type O, I don't remember the statistics but it's much much huger than average european level. Well, during Middle Ages, there was still contribution of blood from foreigners as invaders or as merchants (with permanent installation or even with rape or prostitution). They came from many directions: Vikings, Moors, Syrians, Gypsys, Italians, Germans, Flemish, English, etc. That's not very different until french revolution, except that merchants are more numerous than invaders. France was one of the countries with intense traffics, because of his strategical geographic site: it's the road between Italy and England (very important at late Middle Ages), or between Germany and Spain, between North Sea and Mediterranean sea. It is still like that today. After revolution, there are more mixity and more foreign apports. To summarize, French people until french revolution was made of different ethnicity, and different apports came from different countries: north was influenced by today's England and Germany, south was influenced by today's Italy and Spain. And one more point, if you will travel in France, you will see that there are physical difference we can easily see between "french people": typically, french from south is brown-haired and small, while french from north is blond and taller. Maybe you think to French-Canadian, but they don't represent the whole "French people", since they mostly came from only two region: Poitou (west) and Normandy (north). The geography's book of my father at (public) school, mentionned there was three major human types in France (if I don't forget one) : Alpine, Nordic and Mediterranean.

  • The ethnic French are in fact more homogenous in a physical sense than most of their neighbours and although Nordic elements are present in the north and mediterranean elements in the south, the Alpine element is predominant throughout. Skin type is not the most important factor in the physical anthropological study among peoples and it is easily varied through differing amounts of exposure to the sun. Facial features, stature, crainial size and form and hair,eye colour are considered more reliable and unified in most ethnic studies. The impact of the Romans was not oconsiderable in a physical sense as was the case with almost all of their colonies and their impact was largely cultural. The same can be said of the Germanic Franks and Burgundians as well as the Viking influence in the region of Normandy. I have never heard of any influence of Basques on the ethnic French peoples as they have often kept to their own ethnic boundary that straddles across the France-Spain border around the Bay of Biscay. The influence of the Gallic Celts is currently disputed as with all other areas of Celtic influence and settlement (see Celt) but it is for certain they largely integrated with the original pre-Celtic inhabitants of France. The ethnic French therefore may be Gallo-Roman with Frankish in a cultural sense, but are largely Gallic and pre-Gallic in a physical one. The Romans indeed had a larger impact culturally in the south of France and although the physical impact may also have been larger than in the north, it was still very much insignificant in its overall impact. The mediterranean elements in the south were largely not Italic/Roman or Basque in origin and in fact were from peoples who inhabited the land before the arrival of the Gauls (an affinity with the native Iberian peoples is believed). As for population genetics, it is a very early science that can not be considered reliable yet (only limited Y-chromosome and MtDNA testing has been done; none has been done on the most important X-chromosomes) and no studies have been so far taken on the native ethnic French populations. More will be said on Felipehs page when he responds to me there. For now, read this link on the physical character of the ethnic French by Carleton S. Coon (langue d'oil, langue d'oc peoples): http://www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-XII2.htm, http://www.snpa.nordish.net/racesofeurope.htm

Epf 19:06, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Common culture

I leave now because I spend a lot of time to write in english. I'll be back for this part soon. Bye. Felipeh | babla 22:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing but there is not much you can argue with in terms of the common culture of ethnic French (regional differences exist with many European peoples) as elements of the French culture can date back to Gallo-Roman times and today it is reknowned around the world. Epf 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You can discuss on my page

I've already begun to answer. Felipeh | babla 20:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problems with Image:Xabi373.jpg

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[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Fterie.jpg

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[edit] Political boxes

Hi Epf. I deleted them because various nationalist users kept on insulting me saying that I had a "political agenda" on Wikipedia. --Khoikhoi 05:43, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did some stuff with Catalan people page

Hey what's up? I recall you showing some interest in this region so I wanted your input on what I did with the Catalan people article. Anything you have to add would be appreciated! Ciao. Adios. Tombseye 19:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lapaz saying hello!

Hi man! been a long time! I only wanted to tell you that i have removed the wikilink made to my name on your comment on the French people talk page. I hope you don't mind, but I refer you to Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context. I know that we can speak reasonably together albeit our different POV, as we have done so before, but I don't think it's a good idea highlighting user names like that (it may encourage attacks ad hominem, if you see what i mean). Best regards, & hope to continue this interesting debate! (ps: to add another brick to the wall, again I'll point out the different cultural POV on this issue, and assure you that when I have to stand my ground in France, I support the multicultural pov! However, I also think that the French Republic POV, no matter how strange it may seem to your eyes, is totally respectable and understandable. Actually, you would probably be surprised to know that last year, I tried a reading of Nietzsche to highlight his use of "race", which has been somehow downgraded because of a certain interpretation of his works, in order to understand better what can human diversity mean. My stance concerning the French people article has to be put in the situation of the French political context. On philosophical issues, I may actually be lot more open than you think -- for example, as far as i know, humanity didn't start with Adam & Eve or just homo sapiens sapiens. In fact, several studies have demonstrated that various species of human being (i'm not entering the details here, but you know what i mean: different homo sapiens) have lived simultaneously for vast periods of time; and it may also be that homo sapiens sapiens itself has appeared simultaneously in various parts of the world...) But this has nothing to do with the definition of the French people, which has done everything to distance itself from the concept of race & ethnic, for good or for worse! Cheers! Lapaz 09:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Cool man, sorry about highlighting your user name, I still don't know some Wiki policies as I only started on here a few months ago. Ciao, Epf 10:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crossing flags

Hello to Toronto! Please do not cross flags on your user page. This may offend others and is even considered a crime in many countries. I am sure you are able to express your valuable opinion in a respectful way. Imagine someone crossed the flag of Canada or the UK - also a union. ROGNNTUDJUU! 21:32, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

That is my opinon and choice and where I live, we have freedom of speech, so take your comments elsewhere. The EU is not a nation or people and is an abomination that disrepescts the existence of ethnic groups and cultures and discriminates against muslims and other religions. Epf 19:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC) Disrespecting several countries is in no way better than disrespecting just one. ROGNNTUDJUU! 20:38, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

haha. Listen, i'm not disrespecting the EU countries, I'm against the EU organization that is separate from the member states which form it. I have ethnic roots in England and the UK and am proud of my heritage and I believe in the preservation of national identities, not in the destructive policies of the EU "supra-national" organization. I am not against any people whatsoever, I am against the political and organizational ideas and aims of the EU. Epf 20:44, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are against the organization you can express that legitimate opinion without crossing out an official symbol that represents several hundred million people. You would not want others to do with the flag of your country - also a union - in case they did not like it. ROGNNTUDJUU! 01:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The EU is not a country or a political union in the way the US or Canada are and hopeully never will be. It is not a group of people and it is merely an administrative body that I have a right to protest against. It has memebers just as the UN does, but it is not the same as a nation like Canada, the UK, Germany, etc.. I am against the EU and I have a democratic right to express such an opinion, including crossing out a flag. The EU does not represent all those countries and people and only represents a group of individuals with several policies I consider wrong and injust. Epf 02:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The EU represents all its member country citizens at the WTO for example just as the US represents all Calfiornians. It is in no way better to show disrespect for a flag that represents a union of several countries than to show disrespect for just one country. ROGNNTUDJUU!

03:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The EU is a an ambiguous organization that has many injust views and aims I have a democratic right to be against. The EU does not represent the entirety of its memeber countries and it is merely a political movement. It has no citizens, it has no common nationality, but some extreme poople within it unfortunately wish for it to. A country is dfferent because it represents all citizens and people of that nation, the EU does not and it is merely a globalizationist trade union that I have every right to demonstrate against. Enough already, you keep repeating your incorrect and ignorant POV over and over again and its annoying. Epf 20:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with you that you have a democratic right to be against the EU and to show it. I only say that it would be more respectful to do so without crossing out an official symbol. It does represent all its citizens at organizations like the WTO and many people feel represented by it. Some people even use it in demonstrations in order to express their desire to join the EU or to get help from it like recently in Belarus. The EU is much more than a trade union, it helped a lot to spread prosperity and civil liberties in Spain, Portugal, Greece, the new Eastern members and even aspirant Turkey. You would not cross out the symbol of a soccer club because it would be offensive to its supporters, so why do you cross out a symbol millions feel represented by? ROGNNTUDJUU! 11:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Y chromosome analysis in the British Isles

Hi Epf, my contribution on Y chromosome analysis has been moved from Anglo-Saxons to Sub-Roman Britain if you want to take a look and edit it. I would be grateful if you did this as you clearly know about the subject and I don't think it has been edited by anyone else with a knowledge of genetics. It's always good to get several perspectives on these sorts of papers. Thanks. Alun

Will do Alun, cheers, Epf 20:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mestizos in Chile

Epf, Alandalus is right when claiming that a vast majority of Chileans are "mestizos". It is true. Most of them do have some indian blood. I disagree with him because the concept of Mestizo is not applicable in Chile as they are mainly European and there is no visible ethnic divide between Chileans with Indian blood and Chileans without it. Some Chileans may be dark and have no indian blood and some may be European looking and have Indian origins. There is no cleavage in society based on race, simply a mental association between fair skin, blonde hair etc.. and the upper classes. This association is reinforced by the strong position Northern European immigrants hold in society (the "anglos" for example). One cannot speak of Mestizos because Chileans do not see themselves this way, it would create an artificial divide between Chileans which does not exist in reality and because the majority of Chileans are predominantly of Spanish origin. The absence of a visible divide based on race in Chile has led the CIA fact book to lump together "whites and white-amerindians (95%)". So 10 million (or even more Spaniards in Chile is correct. Just as it is correct to include in the Italian page those Venezuelan Italians who also have Spanish origins. In the same way it would be incorrect to exclude Canarian Spaniards from the Spanish ethnic group because they have aboriginal Guanche blood. Or excluding those Andalusian Spaniards (there are many) who have some gypsy blood. In any case, race is always a difficult parameter of ethnicity and it should be used with moderation and only when it affects the self perception of a people.

Anyways that is my point of view.

Ciao--Burgas00 13:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with some aspects of your POV, except for the fact that "most Chileans have at least some Indian blood". A large number have at least "some" amerindian ancestry, but this is in most cases very small compared to the mestizos of Peru, Colombia or Mexico for example. The number of ethnic Amerindians compared to the number of those who are white is evidence of this. Compare this to Mexico or Peru where the number of Amerindians is significantly larger. it should be pointed out that very very few Andalusians have Roma ancestry (gypsy is a derogatory term) and although the Berber element is stronger than in other areas of Spain, it still is minimal compared to the majorty descent from native Iberians. As for the Italians in Venezuela, most of that popualtion has remained relatively homogenous (as is the case with most Italian immigrant groups in the diaspora) compared to other immigrant groups in that country. Obviously a significant portion will have other ancestry as well and yes I agree that these can still be labeled as being of Italian descent. The US Dept. of state source I cited in the article is not there because of the statistic of the 95 % who are "white or white-amerindian", but because the section on people clearly states how the majority of Chileans are of primarily Spanish descent. Any Amerindian elements in the Spanish and other European descended popualtion is again very minimal for the most part, especially compared to the more mestizo populations of countries like Mexico. Chile and especially Argentina have long been considered to be the "most European" nations in Latin America in both terms of culture and the people. Epf 22:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Well if you want to talk in purely racial terms I am afraid you have lost the argument with al andalus since all evidence is clearly on his side. I still dont agree in classifying them all as mestizos because they have a bit of indian blood. As for Gypsies in Andalusia, over 300,000 Spanish gypsies live in this province alone -although this figure is deemed conservative by many institutions. Andalusia has a population of nearly 7 million. Considering the level of integration of Gypsies in Spain (80% are fully integrated according to the government) how many andalusians do you calculate have at least partial gypsy origins and do not consider themselves gypsy? 1 million? 2 million? In any case, not "very very few".Anyways, none of these are "mestizos". Same goes for Canarians who are all "racially" mixed. Btw the word Gypsy (Gitano in Spanish, or Gitan in French) is not derogative, at least not in spain. --Burgas00 15:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Burgas, I think what you need to first of all realize is that the Roma (Gypsies is a derogatroy term as most will testify, they prefer the term "Roma") have long been an isolated population group in whatever country they have settled in. If there is 300,000 Roma in Andalusia as you claim, it does not necessarily mean they intermixed with native Spaniards to the degree you claim, especially when Roma do not have much history of large intermixing with other groups. Taking into religious, cultural and other ethnic aspects, I think its easily overstated to say that 1 or 2 million Andalusians could have partial Roma ancestry just because this "integrated" minority lives there. If one is going by the few limited genetic studies on Spanish populations (most representing only a tiny portion of our genetic inheritance, the Y-chromosome), the only significant foreign element found in native Spaniards in Andalusia was a shared genetic marker with the Berbers of Northwest Africa. Any significant foreign markers from the Roma would be more differentiated from those shared with the Berbers since the Roma trace most of their ancestry to South Asia and would have significant non-caucasoid elements. Andalusia clealry has the most significant non-Iberian racial influence of all Spanish regions, but this doesn not mean they are still not primarily descended from native Iberians as has been shown with most genetic and anthropolgical studies. Epf 21:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm not really a part of this particular discussion on the genetic admixture in Spaniards, but to call a Spaniard a "mestizo", whatever his degree of mixture from Gypsies, Guanches, Berbers, etc. origin, with the aim of trying to make a comparison with the case in Chile, is completely misguided.
First of all, all and any foreign contribution in Spaniards comes from other Caucasoid populations (Gypsies, Berbers, Guanches, etc. are all Caucasoid peoples), so technically, they are not "racially" mixed even with these non-Iberian foreign elements. Meanwhile, the admixture in Chileans is Caucasoid and Amerindian, two totally separate racial cluster.
Secondly, this foreign Caucasoid admixture present in Spaniards is not a generalised phenomenon throughout the entire Spanish populace. Only certain segments of Spaniards here and there present the genetic markers. In Chileans, the Amerindian contribution is generalised in almost the absolute entirety of the Chilean population. Out of every 100 Chileans, perhaps 5 are pure, while the other 95 would all be mixtures, 60 would physically show that mixture to varying degrees, 25 of the 30 that is "European" and all of the 10 who are Amerindian would also have distant Amerindian or European admixture respectively.
Third, the foreign Caucasoid admixture in Spaniards is itself nowhere near as "elevated" as that found in the average Chilean. The AVERAGE Chilean is 57% European and 43% Amerindian. Even if we're talking about Mexicans here, the average Mexican is 41% European, 56% Amerindian and 3% African. I seriously doubt that in those Spaniards that do have Caucasoid non-Iberian elements, that those elements themselves would average more than 20% of those particular Spaniards' total genetic make-up. It's an interesting topic, and I will look into it more in depth.
And to Burgas00, I still dont agree in classifying them [Chileans] all as mestizos because they have a bit of indian blood. I'm not proposing we classify all Chileans as mestizo. I am proposing the very opposite. I am the one here who recognises that while almost every single Chilean (bar 5% of the population) has mixed ancestry, at least 30% of them are relatively "pure" European and should be classified as such, 10% relatively pure Amerindian (according to their own classification as Amerindians in the 1992 census, based on race only) and should be classified as such. According to the 2002 census criteria, recognition of Amerindian classification is based on race AND the provision that you also speak a native language and practice the culture, in which case they make up 5%. Nevertheless, both "pure" races are given the value of 5% of the population in Chile. Really, only 60% of Chileans could be considered mestizos (again, in various degrees, but all nevertheless showing visible admixture), and this does still constitute a majority. What I'm arguing against is the suggesting (and pushing of POV into the Spanish people article) that Chileans who are phenotypically White represent a majority (10 million of the 15 million Chileans at that, or close to 70%) that does not make sense in light of all evidence, and plain eye-sight (if you've been to the country). In all honesty, what purpose is served by insisting something that is clearly negated the blatantly obvious. Even if you know squat about the history, statistic, migration, etc. of Chile, and have merely physically been to it, you know that insisting it has an at least phenotypically European majority is a baseless statement. One thing that is true, however (as stated so boldly Chilean government website for tourists travelling to Chile) is that if you were to arrive in Santiago from Lima, Chile appears way more European by comparison, but if you came in to Chile from Argentina, the Indian characteristics of Chileans are quite obvious. And one last thing, even for the 30% of Chile which is phenotypically White, the culture of that 30% could not be considered "ethnic Spanish". Unlike their appearance, one thing their culture is without a shadow of a doubt, is that it is a mestizo culture that they practise, the same culture evey other Chilean practices regardless of his race. The same goes for the culture of Whites in Mexico, or Peru, Colombia, etc. They all essentially practise the same national mestizo culture (or mulatto national culture in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic) as that of the other citizens. The difference here is class and racial appearance, not ethnicity. Ethnicity is defined on much more criteria, such as shared language, customs, culture, cuisune, ancestral relation (althoug not necessarily being of the same single race). Race itself is not a prime factor in "ethnicity". Al-Andalus 20:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC).

Epf, I don't mean to hurt any of your sensibilities (just in case you are Chilean), however, I have a very good understanding and am studied on race relations in Latin America (Chile is actually a forte of mine) and believe that you may not (based on my assessment of your understanding at least with Chile). If you have an understanding of the Spanish language, I invite you to the Spanish Wikipedia to read up on the very same topic of Chile's population, the issue of the white population of that country.

Discusión:Demografía de Chile You will notice that not one single Wikipedian, including ALL the Chilean Wikipedians, is arguing whether the White population in Chile (including the mestizos who might be phenotypically European) are the population majority. It is accepted as an undisputable FACT by Chileans or anyone with some knowledge of that country’s colonial history, uunderstainding of Chile's past and modern migration trends, has studied statistics by INE (Chilean Census Institute), or even just by someone who has simply visited Chile - that the majority of the Chilean population is racially mixed and that the country in no way has a White majority of any kind (pure or mixed but phenotypically White).

So, what is the argument then if everyone accepts that Chile is over 90% mestizo? Well the argument is not like there is presently with you (where you actually are insisting a white majority, despite all historic, migratory, statistic, academic and plain eye-witness evidence against it), the contention over Chile demographics is as what to classify the mestizos who may look white; as just the mestizos that they genotypically are, or simply as white and tally them up and present them as such in a percentage (from the estimate 2% to 5% unmixed whites, to around 30% with the inclusion of "mestizos" who are phenotypically white).

Having said that, another point you will notice which is not argued over in the Spanish Wikipedia discussion, is whether Chile as a mestizo majority (again, over 90%) has a population majority which is at least phenotypically white. This is not argued over because again, the accepted FACT as lived by chileans (and again any one who know about in depth about Chile or has simply visited) is that at least 60% of the country's population show that they are mixed in their phenotype (of these, some lighter, some darker, but most in the middle). So, once again, the contention is with that third portion of the mestizo population (over 90%) which DO look white (around 25% to 27% of the total population; not including the unmixed white between 2% and 5% of the total population, which together would bring the total white to aroudn 30%) but which we know from all the evidence (history, migration, etc) is in fact also racially mixed (albeit distantly). Do those consider THMSELVES white? The answer to that is YES! They do. That is just the way racial identity works, and is a direct result of the historic Spanish Colonial Caste System. So then should we then consider them white and tally them up as such? This last question is what was being discussed, and so far it has been reached that the percentages of White should not be placed (but if it were, not above 30%), and since whites cannot be specified neither will the mestizo percentage (despite constituting a majority even without if the phenotypically European mestizos were they to be deducted).

So how it’s been worded is that mestizos are a majority (number not defined, but meaning over 51%), then the statistics of the Amerindians us given, and then a description and inclusion of figures of the trends of the migrations (ie European migration) to Chile including numbers, percentages, giving comparison of those numbers as proportional to the population throughout Chile’s history. That way the ethnography becomes clear without need of percentages (which was given only for the Amerindians).

As for the Amerindian population which I touched on above, in Chile we also have the problem with the Amerindian percentage. If using the Chilean government’s official method of Amerindian classification as formulated for Census 2002 (the most currently espoused), only Amerindians who define themselves as Amerindian AND speak and Amerindian language and follow an Amerindian culture are classed as such (in which case they represent 5% of the population according to government.) However, in the second to last census (1992) the percentage of Chileans reporting themselves as Amerindian was just over 10% of the total population, which is why the government reformulated the question for 2002 (not allowing Amerindians who no longer speak an indigenous language and don't practice an indigenous culture to classyfy themselves as such), and which has already been declared "statistic genocide". This leads back to a reoccurring theme in Latin America, that of decreasing the population of Amerindians, and in countries with extremely large naturally uninflated number of mestizos (over 90%, the best example for comparison to Chile is Paraguay), the attempt to push some of those as white. You even have this in the Philippines, a country with an undoubted native majority (over 95%), where it is the mestizos that are tried to be inflated above the uninflated 2% to 3%. Again, this is to do with remnants of Spanish Racial system.

Now, I want to disagree with the user that posted to you with the thing that in Chile there is no distinguishing between the castes. That is vaguely true, but not because everyone looks whit, since, it has been established that the majority do indeed look mixed, although with a large minority looking unmixed. The lack of much racial tension is in fact because the uninflated number of mestizos form the majority. As opposed to Mexico for example, which does indeed have a mestizo majority, uninflated at 60%, (though the inflated number is 80%), and a large minority (30%) of Amerindians and large minority of Whites (10%). In Mexico there is more room for racial tensions. Having said that, there still nevertheless a rigid association of class and phenotype even in Chile, as opposed to what the user above would like to thing. What there isn’t open racism towards mestizos from whites, because most of the Whites would in fact also be mestizos, and there is social order. Access to power and privilege although remains largely relegate to those who are white or white-looking, but nonetheless excluding the majority of the population who not only is mixed but also looks it (in whatever degree). I have a really good link discussing exactly that, it was published in Chile, and it discusses the situation in Chile. I will be happy to pass it on to you. Just let me know if you understand Spanish, if not I will be happy to translate it for you.

One last thing, the comparison the user made with Argentina is a flawed one, one I have only heard once made by an ill-informed neo-Nazi. Argentina’s population history is most peculiar, and unique in Latin America, only shared with Uruguay. Immigrants flooded the colonial populations of Argentina and Uruguay. The immigrants turned 1 million colonial inhabitants (the overwhelming majority being mestizo) into 8 million people. Immigrants to Chile never surpassed 5% of that country’s population, the ever-stressed German immigration to Chile was composed of a mere 7,000 immigrants, less than half of a percent of the population. Analysis of the white-looking third within Chile mestizo majority is due not to European migration as it was negligible (in proportion to their own populations, more than Peru, of course, but no where Argentina or Uruguay) but to the circumstance during the Chile’s colonial period. Proportionally, relatively few people in Chile can trace any European ancestry outside of their Spanish-Amerindian mixture dating back to the colonial era. Uruguay and Argentina are the ONLY countries in Latin America where there is no distinction between people who are unmixed white (44% according to genetic tests) and people who are phenotpypically white (the rest of the population, except for 13% which has enough Amerindian mixture to exhibit it phenotypically). It is that 13%, the identifiably mestizos that are the so-called "cabecitas negras" who are discriminated against. Here the population majority is white (unmixed or otherwise). The population of Chile is over 90% racially mixed, of which at least 60% are identifiably mestizo, and thus remain a majority and exempt from discrimination in a country where they form that majority. It is the Amerindians in Chile’s case that are the discriminated against both by the not so much by the white minority (including white-looking), but by the identifiably mestizo (and so identified) majority of Chile. Al-Andalus 15:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not know how to speak Spanish fluently, so I will need to you to translate some of the text on the "racial" composition of Chileans if need be. I do however find several flaws in your argument, especially with the references to genetics. Very few if any reliable studies have been carried out on Argentines or Chileans and the ones which have only relate to a tiny portion of our DNA (usually the Y-chromosome or MtDNA) and the results are in no way conclusive. Being a student of anthropologly (biological and cultural), this is also my forte, and from most research I have studied, Chileans overall have far less mestizo or Amerindian elements than the largely Mestizo and Amerindian populations of Peru and Mexico (both being the centre of very advanced and populous Amerindian civilizations). I do not disagree that the majority of "White" Chileans have some Amerindian ancestry, but the majority of them are of primarily Spanish descent. Most 20th cent. physical anthropological studies on Latin Ameica (and they are few) reveal how Chile does indeed have a mainly European descended majority, although the mestizo/Amerindian elements is still quite significant, especially compared to Argentina or Uruguay. I will further this response at a later time. Ciao. Epf 23:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Papers on Chile's Mestizo Majority

The Socio-Genetic Gradient in Chile and it’s Ethico-Social Implications

Dr. Carlos Valenzuela Y., Human Genetics Programme, ICBM, Faculty of Medicne, Universidad de Chile.

January 2002

"The Chilean population was formed primarily by the mixture of a Caucasian population and an Amerindian population. As Chile was a military colony for almost 300 years, from Spain came a great contingent of male soldiers who did not bring their wives. The European marriages [ie. both husband and wife being European] that arrived in Chile were insignificant in relation to the contingent of single male soldiers (1). It is from this that the asymmetric mixing between European men and Amerindian women was unavoidable, and which gave origin to the mestizo population that quickly (in a century or three generations) became the majority. From the conquest in 1541, 15 or 16 generations have passed. The Caucasian population had itself separated from the Amerindian one (a branch of Mongoloids) over 35 or 40 thousand years ago (1,300 generations). This asymmetric mixture implied an asymmetric contribution of genetic factors. If we fix the Caucasian contribution of autosomes at 50%, the one for the X chromosome will only be 33%, the Y chromosome will be 100% Caucasian and the mitochondrial DNA 100% Amerindian (2). It is necessary to clarify that the Amerindian groups that participated in the mixing were Atacameños, Diaguitas, Changos, Picunches (primarily) and some others to the north of the river Maule. With the annexation of Antofagasta and Tarapacá (1880) Aymaras and Quechuas incorporated in a greater proportion. The Mapuches in the south did not incorporate themselves into the mixing during the conquest or colony period, but instead, in each generation they have incorporated themselves in low proportions, in the beginning to populations of the regions where they lived and subsequently in the great metropolitan cities of the country. The same has happened with the Pehuenches and Huilliches in smaller amounts. The Chonos incorporated themselves into the mixing more to the south especially to the population of Chiloé and the Tehuelches, Alacalufes, Onas and others of the Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego incorporated themselves very little or not at all. This limits our present genetic studies, because the Picunche and Diaguita ethnic groups, who comprised the majority Amerindian element in the formation of the current Chilean population, no longer exist, and their genetic composition must be inferred from the present Chilean population or from preserved mortal remains, so as extracting genetic information at funeral sites. Additionally, throughout the generations there have been marriages between Caucasians and Amerindians in the regions inhabited by the current Amerindian population, so that pure Amerindian populations no longer exist. Although the black African component was high (up to 10%) it has not been found in the great cities in Chile when looking for them with the traditional genetic markers. There is no a satisfactory explanation for this fact. They are found in remote towns far from the great urban centres. The proposed bi-racial model that seems so simple has in general terms been maintained with moderate or small modifications throughout time and according to the regions. A greater Amerindian component is evident, and in this cases it is indeed Mapuche, in the vicinities of Temuco, and an Aymara component in the Chilean north.

When analysing the ethnic composition by social levels we have found ourselves with an important socio-genetic gradient that conditions the structure of mortality according to socioeconomic level and the socio-cultural evolution of Chile (3,4,5,6). From the beginning of the Conquest and the colony, the Spaniards, and specially those that had Spanish families, conserved or preferentially accessed the positions of higher prestige and power, as well as to the propriety of land. Later the criollos came, who were the children born and bred in Chile of a Spanish or European father and mother. Immediately next were the mestizos of various degrees of Caucasian mixture, then the Amerindians and finally came the black African slaves. Being Amerindian was considered pejorative from the beginning and still now to call someone an "Indio" (Amerindian) is considered an insult. With a system of mestizaje (miscegenation) so extended, and with the epidemics that the Spaniards brought, for which the Amerindians had not immunities, pure Amerindians soon disappeared. The arrival of new European settlers was increasing the Caucasian component. These were preferably incorporated into the high levels of society. The women did so almost in their totality. The occasion was rare where the woman married with a Amerindian or mestizo or was kidnapped by some Amerindian chieftain. The European men who arrived also incorporated themselves into the high levels of society or they married with a mestiza. From here came the children with a greater Caucasian component who climbed the social ladder. The men who arrived from Europe (not only from Spain) and were very socioeconomically successful could marry with the criolla women. This destiny could also occur with those mestizos of lesser Amerindian component who were successful in society, and were eventually assimilated into the higher levels ("arribismo", "desclasaje"). We have been able to verify that this model happens at the present time (7). The Blest, Edwards, Morandais, Alessandri, Aylwin and Frei families, among others, are examples of this assimilation and formation of families of not so little importance in the running of Chile.

This socioeconomic and genetic stratification remained and remains in place by a rigid system of marriages and inheritance of properties, in addition to a negative social discrimination as rare times is seen in the world. The highest socioeconomic level accumulated most of the power and wealth, besides having the best access to health and privileged education. It is sad to state that Chile had different categories of students with different treatment in the schooling system. The cursed illegitimate child and the "huacho" has recently been eliminated by law, but not yet in practice or even in schools. This racism or "estratismo" (discrimination based on social stratum) is a very marked characteristic in Chilean culture, although tolerated and accepted by the lower strata. The Chilean education system indoctrinates the acceptance of this culture of "a government without counterbalance lead by an aristocracy trampling over the sheepish majority" ("gobierno sin contrapeso de una aristocracia ramplona sobre una tropa de borregos".) The autonomy and cultural creativity of the student are penalised instead of being encouraged. Criticism of the system is prohibited. Studies with genetic markers have revealed that in the selection of a partner to marry and to have children a sharp discrimination exists in the high socioeconomic stratum (3,8). The great majority partners-up to build a family within someone from within the same stratum. Not only is there a sociocultural factor of discrimination, but also a directly genetic since in Chile as in Englands (6,9) phenotype A (Blood Types & the ABO system ) is accumulated in the higher level and O in the low levels. We have newspaper information that this also happens in Japan. [For the benefit of context; blood type O is the only type present among Amerindians of Meso-America and South-America. O type reaches levels of 100% in these groups. Any derivation from type O in Amerindians is thought to be as result from admixture from the Spanish conquest onwards.] It is a genetic effect since it does not occur to phenotype B nor to phenotype AB, those that would have to be accumulated in the high stratum like A, but instead, is distributed erraticly throughout the social levels. There is solid evidence that this is not due to intelligence as proposed by the English authors (10). These studies are accused of being racist, but this accusation comes from ignorance and prejudice. These studies describe the racism or "estratismo" that exists is in Chilean society, the studies denounce a situation that belongs to the idiosyncrasy of the Chilean population, and the last thing the studies would be is racist. They help to understand and therefore propose a cure of the human disqualification in Chilean society. Another habitual error is to conclude that genetics determine social stratification, since those most apt to exert positions of power are those better equipped genetically. In this case the individuals of the group A would have to be in the high positions. In this exposition there are several errors, some of which are very serious. Let us suppose that the higher level of society is 5% of the population and harbours 40% of group A, while the low level represents 75% of population and harbours sonly 20% of group A. In total, there will be 2% of the total population that is A from the high level, and 15% of the population which is A from the lower level. For every A in the high level there are 7.5 A in the lower level. If belonging to group A conditions access to power, this 15% A of the lower level — who have been denied to power for having been born in a disqualified stratum — would have taken that place without a question...

Of our studies the population of Santiago (Chile) could be divided, by broad characteristic, into three socioeconomic/genetic strata. The high stratum that is close to 5% of the population without any Amerindian component. The medium stratum which is near 20% of the population with 20% Amerindian admixture. The lower stratum which is 75% of the population and between 35% to 40% of Amerindian admixture (4)..." http://www.medwave.cl/ciencia/11.act

The rest of the lengthy paper deals (in a manner too detailed for me to translate) access of Chile’s mestizo majority to opportunities in public and private sectors, private and public services, education, and employment. It also explores the place and role in Chile’s cultural structure of Chile's mestizo majority; their poor representation in the running of the nation, and their apparent invisibility (as the majority that they are) in the image of Chile that is projected to the rest of the world by the large minority of Europeans in power (unmixed or otherwise). Basically it details the denial of access for Chile's mestizo majority to infrasturcture of the country. Chile being a country with Latin America's most progressive economy today, it also has one of the world's worst distribution of wealth. Al-Andalus 07:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC).


Admixture Studies in Latin America: From the 20th to the 21st Century

Mónica SANS (Human Biology, 2000, 72: 155-177)

Analysed populations: The populations of Latin America can be divided in three categories: (1) urban populations, usually di- or tri-hybrids, without considering possible substructurings; (2) the populations derived from Africans in quite isolated communities, and (3) Amerindian groups. In both the last two categories the emphasis is generally on the degree of European mixture.

A complete revision of the studies of mestizaje (miscegenation) would be a complex and arduous task, especially because many of these were published in magazines or annals that are only obtainable in a few places; nevertheless, it is possible to analyse some data.

Urban populations: The different ethnic contributions from Latin American populations can be analysed with consideration to the bio-cultural regions as defined by Harris (1964), and later by others (Morner 1967; Wagley 1968, 1971; Ribeiro 1969; Stepan 1991). Nevertheless, it is important to note that these studies do not consider any quantitative estimation based on the genetic contributions of the different groups to support their ethnic classifications.

In general, genetic data are in agreement with the boundary of regions. For example, there is a clear difference between "Amerindian" countries (Mexico, Chile), "European" countries (Argentina, Uruguay), and "African" countries (Brazil), but this is not always so.

The population of Mexico is one of the best analysed, but although the population can be considered as a mixture between Amerindians and Europeans, there are some regional differences related to the African contribution. The City of Mexico probably better reflects the overall population: for this population (Lisker et al. 1986) they calculated 41% of European contribution, 56% Amerindian and 3% African. Nevertheless, in Mexico’s Caribbean coast, the African contribution increases: in Veracruz it reaches 26%, and in Tamahihua, in the same state of Veracruz, the estimated value is of 40% (Lisker and Babinsky 1986). These last values are similar to the found ones in the "African" countries.

Cerda-Flores and Garza-Chapa (1989) conducted a different analysis of the Mexican population. They analyzed the degree of mixture in three generations of people living in Monterrey and concluded that the eldest generation (born between 1896 and 1925) had greater Spanish contribution than other generations. Another example of a country with Amerindian and European mestizaje (miscegenation) is Chile. For Santiago, Rothhammer (1987) calculated a European contribution of 57%, and an Amerindian one of 43%; a more recent study established that the degree of mixture was related to socioeconomic status. (Rothhammer 1993).


Admixture in Urban Dihybrid or Trihybrid Latin American Populations

Amount of Admixture (%)
Systems No. Used European Amerindian African Reference
Poposo, Antofagasta (Chile) 5 40% 60% 0% 18
Laitec, Chiloé (Chile) 5 20% 80% 0% 18
Concepción (Chile) 1 65% 35% 0% 3
Puerto Montt (Chile) 1 47% 53% 0% 3
Santiago (Chile) 1 57% 43% 0% 3
Mérida (Mexico) 9 43% 51% 6% 15
Mexico City, (Mexico) 6 41% 56% 3% 10
Oaxaca (Mexico) 9 30% 68% 2% 15
Puebla (Mexico) 11 33% 56% 11% 14
Saltillo (Mexico) 1 45% 52% 3% 5
Tlaxcala (Mexico) 9 16% 76% 8% 2
Veracruz (Mexico) 9 35% 39% 26% 9
Tamahihua, Veracruz (Mexico) 9 29% 31% 40% 9

http://backintyme.com/admixture/sans02.pdf

For the purpose of comparing two countries with a mestizo majority population, the table only shows admixture figures for Chile and Mexico.Al-Andalus 09:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Mestizos in Chile 2

I have dealt with most of the issues above, however, I would like to address one part of your last post, specifically the sentence "Chileans overall have far less mestizo or Amerindian elements than the largely Mestizo and Amerindian populations of Peru and Mexico". Again, the misinformation about Chileans having an "overall far less mestizo or Amerindian element" has already been deal with the various personal posts and Chilean papers above. So, now to the other part of that sentence. While it is true that Mexico has a large Amerindian population, it must be noted that it is in fact a MINORITY. Amerindians in Mexico ARE the LARGEST minority, that is TRUE, but a MINORITY nonetheless. The MAJORITY of Mexico remains the uninflated mestizo population, with the second LARGEST minority (after Amerindians) being White Mexicans (10%). So the comparison to be made of Mexico is not between Mexico and Peru, but indeed with Mexico and Chile*. Peru has an Amerindian MAJORITY, and that country’s LARGEST minority are the mestizos, then followed by White Peruvians.
* Even though both Chile and Mexico are mestizo majority countries, and they are better compared to each other than Chile to Argentina or Mexico to Peru, there are somewhat better corresponding mestizo majority countries to be paired for both Chile and Mexico instead of each other. I have written them below, check the end of this message.

I would like to say that I do realise where this topic is trying to be pushed, an I do mean of the attempt of aligning Chile with Argentina/Uruguay, but I’ve already addressed the flaw in that above with colonial, migrational, statistical, historic factors, and current self-evident physical facts that argue against it.

The question with Chile has never been as to whether the majority of population is not mestizo, since IT IS. The question has been; what is the degree of admixtures in the typical Chilean mestizo? And how does the average Chilean mestizo compare to other mestizos from other countries. This analysis is made by the effects carried onto the majority by the LARGEST minority of the given country.

In Latin America, the degree of admixture in the main body of a country’s majority population is defined by its second LARGEST minority. Note that in Latin America there is essentially no pure person of any race or race mixture, just people who can be defined as relatively pure (thus white, black, amerindian) or visibly mixed (mestizo, mulatto, zambo). Therefore in Mexico, their visibly mestizo population (around 60% of the population) will be defined by the Amerindian population since they are the largest minority (30%, pure Amerindian or phenotypically Amerindian). Now, the ratio of a "true" mestizo is defined as 50:50, however, nobody is exactly this ratio unless they are a first generation mestizo. In the case of Mexico, the Amerindian admixture in the AVERAGE Mexican Mestizo (again, visibly mestizos being 60% of the population) will hover around 55% Amerindian admixture and 45% European admixture. Individually, the visibly mestizo can register up to 70% on either side and be classed a mestizo, but any more and they’d be classed as either White or Amerindian (depending which side the 70% is representing). If the admixture fell over 75% of whichever race in any person, then that person would already have been counted as solely that race and not a mixture, since they would not have physically shown their admixtures. So, what’s the verdict? The average visibly mestizo Mexican, comprising 60% of the population, hovers at around 45% European admixture and 55% Amerindian admixture. This result roughly coincides with the study above (Admixture in Urban Dihybrid or Trihybrid Latin American Populations), where Mexico City (the nation's capital) is taken as representative of the country's average admixture; 41% European, 56% Amerindian, 3% African. (For the purposes of phenotypic analysis of the Mexican population majority [ie. mestizos], my results lacked a percentile representation for an African admixture. The reason for this is I did not include the African population it in my equation, as it is almost inexistant as an independant ethnic group in Mexico, at less than 1%. The results of African admixture shown in the study itself, 3%, also proved this.)

Chile is a country with a mestizo majority population (this time I say visibly mestizo, and I will use the figure 60%), and its LARGEST minority are White Chileans (30%, pure White or phenotypically White), followed then by Amerindians (10%). Once again, the ratio of a "true" mestizo is defined as 50:50, and nobody is exactly this ratio unless they are a first generation mestizo. In the case of Chile, the Amerindian admixture in the AVERAGE Chilean Mestizo (again, visibly mestizos being 60% of the population) will hover between 45% Amerindian and 55% European. And once again, individually, the visibly mestizo can register up to 70% on either side and be classed a mestizo, but any more and they’d be classed as either White or Amerindian (depending which side the 70% is representing). If the admixture fell over 75% of whichever race in any person, then that person would already have been counted as solely that race and not a mixture, since they would not have physically shown their admixtures. So, what’s the verdict? The average visibly mestizo Chilean, comprising 60% of the population, hovers at around 55% European admixture and 45% Amerindian admixture. Here also, this result roughly coincides with the study above (Admixture in Urban Dihybrid or Trihybrid Latin American Populations), where Santiago de Chile (the nation's capital) is taken as representative of the country's average admixture; 57% European, 43% Amerindian, 0% African.

Let’s do this for Argentina and Peru, the first of which you tried to compare with Chile and the second you tried to compare with Mexico.

Argentina is a country with a White or phenotypically White majority population (85%), and its LARGEST minority are mestizo Argentine (c. 12%, the visibly mestizo), followed then by Amerindians (c. 3%, the pure or phenotypically Amerindian). In the case of Argentina, the Amerindian admixture in the AVERAGE Argentine White will be determined by the largest minority. Since the visibly mestizo are themselves a small minority, the majority of White Argentites will have admixture (as has even been proven by genetic test by the University of Buenos Aires) but to such a small degree that it does not show phenotypically. And thus the population is white, and there is no questions about it, and determining the degree is irrelevant for the majority of the population since they are phenotypically white. We could try to determine the admixture of the visibly mestizo Argentines (the largest minority), and that will be determined on the majority population (the whites). The average Argentine mestizo (already representing c. only 12%) would be around 35% Amerindian and 65% white.

Peru is a country with an Amerindian or phenotypically Amerindian majority population (50%), and its LARGEST minority are mestizo Peruvians (c. 35%, the visibly mestizo), followed then by White Peruvians (c. 15%, the pure or phenotypically White). In the case of Peru, the European admixture in the AVERAGE Peruvian Amerindian will be determined by the largest minority. Since the visibly mestizo are the largest minority in this country, the majority of Amerindian Peruvians will have admixture but to such a small degree that it does not show phenotypically. And thus the population is Amerindian, and there is no questions about it, and determining the degree is irrelevant for the majority of the population since they are phenotypically Amerindian. We could try to determine the admixture of the visibly mestizo Peruvians (the largest minority), and that will be determined on the majority population (the Amerindians). The average Peruvian mestizo (already representing only 35%) would be around 65% Amerindian and 35% white.

If you have been to any of these countries discussed above, know any of their population histories, and have read up on any recent genetic research for the corresponding nations, it will all make sense.

The following is the pairing of countries by population similarity I talked of earlier. Even when two countries are mestizo majorities, as with Chile and Mexico, there are better suited country pairs for comparison.

  • As a White (or predominantly White) majority country, Argentina’s population counterpart would be Uruguay.
  • As an Amerindian (or predominantly Amerindian) majority country, Peru’s population counterpart would be Bolivia or Guatemala.
  • As a mestizo majority (with a White or predominantly White largest minority) country, Chile’s population counterpart would be Paraguay or Costa Rica.
  • As a mestizo majority (with an Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian largest minority) country, Mexico’s population counterpart would be Ecuador.
  • As a mestizo majority (with and equal White or predominantly White, and Mulatto/Black or predominantly Black largest minorities) country, Colombia’s population counterpart would be Venezuela.

With this info, and noting that Colombia is also a mestizo majority country (58%); what do you think the admixture of Colombia's AVERAGE mestizo would be, given that Colombia's largest minority status is shared by both Whites (c. 20%) and Mulattos/Blacks (c. 20%), with the next significant minority being Amerindians (c. 2%)? Al-Andalus 14:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Instead of importing text to your talk page, and lengthening it even more, you can go to this link on the talk page of the Mestizo article. Talk:Mestizo#Mestizos in Chile. The topic was touched on back then too. Al-Andalus 15:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC).
I agree with alot of what you're saying as my only question was to the level of the Amerindian element in Chile's mestizo population and what the percentage of PRIMARILY European descended people in Chile was. It would just seem to me from what I've seen here and in other studies that Chile's people (including mestizo's) have more European (mainly Spanish) ancestry than in other mestizo countries such as Mexico which has such a massive Amerindian population (over 30 million). I will read into the mestizo article and links you have posted above and discuss more as soon as I can, but right now things have been quite busy for me so I'm sorry for any delay. Ciao, Epf 21:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Try not to look at the Amerindian population in Mexico as a real number, but as a percentage. If you say such a massive Amerindian population, at 30 million, you must also say and look at is a 60 million mestizos and 10 million White Mexicans. The 10 million White Mexicans in fact outnumbering the 4.5 million (30% of the population) Whites in Chile, despite being 10% of Mexico. Al-Andalus 21:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC).
  • Yes, that is true, and 30% of over 100 million people should signify predominant Amerindian elements compared to 9-10% who are European in Mexico. The significantly larger percentage of Whites/European in Chile compared to the much smaller percentage of Amerindians can show a stronger European/White element in Chile. As you say before, the term Mestizo varies between these countries in the sense of how much Amerindian ancestry is present in that population. I'm pretty sure we are in agreeance that the mestizos of Chile have much more European (Spanish) ancestry than those of Peru and Mexico ? Epf 22:06, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, you're looking at it as a real number. I have already discussed the effect of the largest minority on the majority population. I am vaguely in agreement as to what you say, that the visibly mestizo in Chile (60%) have more European ancestry than Mexicans, but only slightly higher, just over 50%. Remember that we have already deducted those mestizo that would be phenotypically white, and that's why the mestizo population in Chile for this purpose is being quoted as 60%, not as 95%. The average Mexican mestizo has his European ancestry just under 50%. The difference among the visibly mestizo Mexican and Chilean is not that large, both cluster around 50%, one just beneath the other just above. Your constant comparison of Mexico with Peru is not going anywhere, that country is of an Amerindian majority, with a large visibly mestizo minority, of whom the average European admixture is slightly less than the average Mexcian mestizo. The Chilean's closest comparison is the Paraguayan, then the Mexican, then the Colombian, and last the Peruvian/Argnetinian/Dominican for their respective reasons. Al-Andalus 22:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC).

  • I don't understand what your meaning is by "real number". The fact is that the percentage of Mexico's Amerindian population (30%) is higher than that in Chile and the European/"White" population (visibly) in Chile (30 % as you claim) is higher than the 10 % in Mexico. I don't understand your point here, I'm speaking in terms of the proportion of the population. I also doubt the 60% number of Chile being visibly mestizo since it ignores any small percentage that are Amerindian. Even so, with 90% of Mexico being visibly mestizo or Amerindian and only 60% of Chile being visibly mestizo as you claim, it would seem that most Mexican mestizos would have a greater amount of Amerindian ancestry compared to those from Chile. As for my comparison with Peru, I only mentioned it because most of Peru's mestizos, like Mexico, are mainly of Amerindian descent. The European (Spanish) element is proportionally more significant amongst Chileans, even when one goes by the 30 % number you cite that are phenotypically "white". Most of those 60% which are visibly mestizo (whatever that entails) in Chile have more Spanish ancestry than most mestizos from Mexico. All aside, one can't deny the fact that the majority of Chileans are primarily descended (over 50% of ancestry) from Spaniards. Epf 05:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
  • If the Mestizos of Mexico are of similar Spanish ancestral origins as you claimed before, then they can be included on Spanish people article as much as the Chileans can. Obviously alot of those numbers of people in the other countries with Spanish ethnic origins includes millions who are not of full Spanish descent either.


Hello, everyone. I've been reading the comments and opinions about Chile's ethnic or racial composition, and I'm curious to know how Al Andalus has come up with that notion of 60% of Chilean population being visibly mestizo. That percentage just seems way too high to me. I'm by no means an expert, but I'm from Chile. I was born there, grew up there, all the way through college. I lived in the northern regions for a few years. It's often said that people in the north of Chile are predominantly mestizo or Amerindian, but this is not the case. I went to a public (state-run), middle-class schools there, and I can say that 2 thirds of kids were Caucasian-looking (with no discernable Amerindian admixture). Brown (often-times light-brown) hair and eyes, fair skin were most common. About 25% of all students had at least one non-Spanish last name (people in Chile use 2 last names). There were fairly big numbers of descendants of people from Croatia, Italy, Greece, Germany, England, and other European countries. The other third was visibly mestizo-looking. Very few kids were Amerindian-looking. Then I moved to Santiago. Again, I attended a middle-class public school in the northern part of Santiago. And pretty much the same ethnic composition was there as well. 2 thirds European/Caucasian-looking, one third mestizo or Amerindian-looking. Then I went to college in Santiago. It was one of the 2 top universities in Chile, and most of the students were from upper-middle class (not rich). The ethnic composition here was about 90% European-looking (about 40% to 50% with at least one non-Spanish European last name), and 10% mestizo or Amerindian. I've traveled all over Chile, and European-looking people (again, with NO discernible Amerindian features, i.e., not "visibly mestizo") are definitely a majority in the country, except for some remote areas in the far north (altiplano) bordering Bolivia and Peru, the Araucania region, and the Chiloe archipelago, where Amerindians and mestizos with discernable Amerindian features ("visibly mestizos") are more numerous. I've visited different areas of Spain and other European countries. Many people there are dark-skinned and have black hair, among other features. They have features that are common among people from the Mediterranean (Spain, southern France, southern Italy, Greece, Turkey, etc.). I've noticed that some people, especially in Europe and North America, see those features in someone from Latin America, like Chile, and they they tend to attribute them right awat to Amerindian admixture. Why is that? Why can't they be Mediterranean features? That's the type of features that can be most commonly found in Chile. So, again, where does that figure of 60% of the population in Chile being "visibly mestizo" come from? Aren't those allegedly Amerindian features rather Mediterranean features? I think they most likely are. 60% of the population being visibly mestizo in Chile seems way too high. According to my personal experience, it's more like 30 to 35% only.

[edit] Racial Reality as a source for ancestry issues

Epf I have noticed that you have changed your position with regards to the validity of this website as a source. I remember you used to be in favour of its use... What is your personal opinion on it?

Cheers --Burgas00 16:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

The site includes several valid sources and I believe its intentions (refuting politically biased multi-ethnic, assimilationist, racist, fascist, racial supremacist and "purist" BS) are overall well-mannered, but its obvious to see how some of the sources have been slightly altered or edited to express that authors opinons. Much of the "racial" views on European peoples, (I prefer to basically say physical characteristics/appearance rathern than "race") do have quite a bit of merit though he also tends to overemphasize and over-rely on inaccurate photos and a few sources with some controversial theories and bias (eg. Carleton Coons works and even older anthropolgical studies used on the site like John Baker). Ive read Coons work on the peoples of Europe and there is much information on phenotypic traits/characteristics he was quite accurate on, especially considering it was from 1939. One day if I ever have enough time to finish the research, I intend to make an article on some of the correlations of his work with findings of modern popuation genetic studies. Coon obviously also had very numerous fallacies, incorrect assumptions, incomplete data and some very controversial and plainly unacceptable views on several topics. This is why although I consider his work useful as a source for certain subjects, I never put as much emphasis on it as some very bizarre and "racially" obsessed propenents out there do (I hope you never have to read some of the ridiculous viewpoints of Richard McCulloch or the "SNPA"). Overall, in my opinion "Racial Reality" is definitely not a site that can be used as a reference, but the actual/original version of information and references collected there can and the author has mainly valid viewpoints which clearly separate the site from alot of the "racial" garbage that can be found on the internet lately. Anyways, glad to see things resolved decently on the Spanish people page and let me know what some of your plans are with regard to the ancient Iberians article (I think you mentioned something about that). Ciao, Epf 10:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes I guess the use of the racial reality is to help refute even more outrageous theories and statements out there. Actually the author claims that that is his purpose. The problem is that he crosses the line of neutrality. For example he tries to make northern Europeans seem as mixed and non-european as possible while denying any possibility of miscegenation in southern europe. I guess this is done to counter the nordic or nordicist brand of white supremacism. But claiming that a few pheonician traders visiting Cornwall had a huge impact on the gene pool of Western Brits and Irish while denying any impact from 8 centuries of muslim domination in Spain is a bit paradoxical in my opinion.

As for the Iberians the question is who were the Iberians, the main problem is definition. In Spain Iberians can be restricted to an Indo european people which colonised eastern Spain. It can also mean all the preceltic people which lived in Iberia (including the basques). In any case there was little in common with regards to culture, origin and ancestry of these peoples. I will have a look on the Spanish wiki and keep u updated.

--Burgas00 12:49, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

As for the Gitanos, I hope you dont feel that you have been defeated by a bunch of Spaniards with an assimilationist ideology and have had to compromise. Really I promise you this is not the case. There is no ideology behind claiming that gitanos are ethnic spaniards. (there 'was' in the "french people" debate on whether immigrants were French- French wikipedians said there was no such thing as "ethnic French"). Gitanos simply are ethnic spaniards in their own minds and in the minds of spaniards despite their ancestry. It is very strange I know, and this is not the case as far as I know in any other country. I guess the reason is that (central and southern) Spaniards have co opted Gypsy culture while Gypsies have adopted andalusian culture as their own....Anyways, enjoy your sunday

cheers --Burgas00 13:05, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From Anglo-Saxon Talk

EPF, I believe it might just be you who has indeed stated that the English are ethnic Germans, but am willing to accept it's not. An IP user has made what looks to be over 100 editing corrections to EPF's discourse with me over the course of several hours. This is the same user that added the comments about English being ethnic Germans if you look on the history of this article. Whether or not it is EPF, it is quite scaryEnzedbrit 23:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Where did I anywhere state the English are ethnic Germans ? Here you go again misinterpreting things and making ingnorant and false accusations. As for the anon you speak of, I dont know who it is, but whoever it is has also vandalised my user page several times in the past until I contacted the admin. Cheers, Epf 00:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe that you cannot read or don't understand what you read. I believe it might just be you who has indeed stated that the English are ethnic Germans, but am willing to accept it's not is what I have clearly said, right before your Here you go again misinterpreting things and making ingnorant and false accusations. What part of 'willing to accept it's not' is unclear? Enzedbrit 03:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

"Willing to accept" sounded as if you have some sort of case where I claimed somewhere English are ethnic Germans. Just admit you were wrong about it, lol. I no where made such a claim and a large part of English idnetity is of Germanic origins, but obviously theyre not "ethnic Germans". As I pointed out in discussion as well, the numbered user was not me as my IP address is a 69 # no where near the IP number of whoever it was that edited pretty much every single comment on the Anglo-Saxon discussion page. Epf 09:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

  • note, Enzedbrit is one of the more insulting, offensive and prejudicial users on Wikipedia and much of his comments and POV should not be considered in this dicussion or several others. His previous vandalism of my user page as well as misinterpretation and disregard of other users POV should be taken into account by any readers of his comments or Wikipedia edits.

Ciao, Epf 11:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

There's no problem from my perspective on Talk:Irish people. You make your case strongly, but that's the cut and thrust of talk pages. You always have good and valid reasoning and sources, and I think good sources are the bedrock of any POV. Even if we see things from a different perspective to each other, I always enjoy reading your posts, they are well argued and make me think a lot about my own perspective, which is a good thing. There are often problems on talk pages when contensious issues are being debated and often people take things personally. I think most people come to wikipedia with a specific series of beliefs, which are really POVs in wikipedia parlance, and then find it hard to accept the validity of other people's POVs. I know I have fallen into the trap of thinking my opinion must be the correct one. I have also made the mistake of trying to think in terms of facts or truth, which are not recognised criteria for inclusion in wikipedia articles. These days I usually try to see things in terms of the verifiability, neutral point of view and no original research policies. I find that these policies are very good at helping people to come to a consensus. For me it helps if I try to think in inclusive terms, by that I mean accepting all POVs (as long as they comply with the three policies above) in an article for ballance, while also thinking in terms expressing them neutrally. I also think there is a general misunderstanding about the NPOV policy on wikipedia, I have often seen people accused of including a POV in an article edit, as if it is a breach of the NPOV policy to include a POV in an article. It is not, as long as other POVs are also included and they are all verified in the usual way. I suggest you try to come to some sort of consensus with Enzedbrit, it's always good to try to work constructively, and you might actually find more common ground than you realise. I suggest you have a little think about how you can include his POV and your POV in a neutral way, and then suggest this solution to him, you might have to negotiate a bit on wording, hopefully simply making the suggestion will help to diffuse the animmosity. Sorry if I've prattled on a bit. Thanks for the link to the paper, I'll have a look when I get some time. Take care, and happy editing. Alun 05:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Just a note on your comment Look at Cavalli-Sforza's autosomal analysis of the 5 main waves of European migrations into Europe. Uralic is one of them and the markers are strongest in North-Eastern Europe and decline significantly as one moves west and south. I do not dispute that Finns have some differing allelic frequencies to some other european populations, but are they discernable in physical appearances? I think the problem with your analysis is that you are confusing the specific with the general. Yes one may be able to determine, given a large enough sample, that there are measurable statistically significant differences in phenotype between Finns and Brits. But they would not necessarily be important or apparent to the casual observer. One might be able to discern, for example that Finns are, for the sake of argument, on average a centimetre taller than other europeans (Finns are quite tall in my observation), but this does not mean that short Finns do not exist, likewise blond peple may be rarer in Italy than in Scandinavia, but it does not mean that there are no blonde Italians. I think you have some preconceived ideas about race and are not prepared to take any other interpretation of the data into account. I do not think that there is any evidence for your assertions. If the peoples of europe were so easily categorised by physical appearence, then their origins would be apparent by observation, and we wouldn't need molecular biology to show us that we are all really descended from the same populations. The fact that molecular biology can show us that neolithic migrants did not displace the paleolithic population, but rather supplemented it, shows us that the old idea of mass migration with massive population displacement is wrong, and that the idea of discreet populations representing peoples with differing origins is a nonsense. It seems more likely that when new peoples did migrate into europe, they supplemented and inter married with the indigenous populations. In effect we do have the same origins. Let's put it this way, all europeans are descended from the paleolithic european population and also from the neolithic immigrants (the data show this clearly). So we all have the same origins from that point of view. Some europeans may also have ancestors from other migrations, but all europeans are descended from numerous and multiple source populations, some of the source populations may be mutually exclusive (there may be no Slavic contributions to the British population, for example), but it is also true that all europeans are also descended from the paleolithic and neolithic inhabitants of europe (even Finns). It is a nonsense to claim differing origins, because there are multiple origins for all europeans, some of which are exclusive and some of which are inclusive. I'm not sure that I have made my point clearly, but i think it is important to understand the multiple origins of all european populations, and that a group having an exclusive contribution by one immigrating people, does not exclude it from also having contributions from inclusive indigenous populations as well. Alun 06:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with much of what you say, but I do not have preconceived ideas about "race". Im not even sure if I agree with most biologists/geneticists that "Race" exists. I only am trying to emphasize how different European peoples have some physical variations (more so between some groups than some, but overall minor differences) resulting from different ancestry/genealogy and differing migrations of peoples into these groups. One thing I need to point out here, is that physical human variation consists of noticeable features besides stature, hair type/colour, eye colour or skin colour. Even in those respects there can be obvious differences of averages between European groups. I am not saying anywhere that all members of a certain group have the same exact characeterisitcis, of course not. However, these ethnic groups have certain phenotypic traits which are not shared with all other European groups. There is also much variation among groups in facial features, head form and size and even diferences in body frame. In physical anthropology, head form/size and facial features take precedence because they are less variable in populations compared to other traits I have mentioned. Most people of a relatively homogenous ethnic group share certain traits in common and this does not say that all of the people of a group have the trait (although in a few cases this can be true) but a majority do. Members of a group may have differing physical characteristics, but they also share at least some in common that they may or may not share with someone from another ethnic group. Regardless of physical variation, I think the most important thing I should point out here is how you misunderstand my meaning of "origins". I am speaking of more recent ancestry (within the past 10,000 years), since all humans descend from the same origin. Different European peoples descend from largely the same groups of people but also from different populations/migrations which have caused some genotypic and phenotypic distinction (albeit minor) between groups. Like you say, some groups encountered differing contributions of peoples yet also share much in common with other peoples because of other contributions (either "indigenous"/Upper Paleolithic-Mesolithic or later migrations). Also, the old ideas of mass migration and mass displacement have been shown to be wrong in many cases but this may not be universal and there may be many cases where native populations were displaced. Even so, genetics do not show that the mass migrations themselves did not take place and there obviously were different migrations of peoples into different areas. Obviously it would require massive differences between the groups to completely replace an existing native population (e.g. Natives and Northern Europeans in North America) and in most cases the groups mixed as you say, in turn forming the base "origins" for modern European peoples. Overall, I think we agree on most of what we are debating about but it just seems that we misunderstand much of what were are trying to say. The differences between many groups are smaller than between others and phenotypic differences are easier to notice between certain groups than others, depending on ones POV. I mean, a person like me who has an interest in and studies biological anthropology would be able to distinguish Finns and Brits easier than the average person, but for the most part it obviously isnt as simple as distinguishing Caucasians from Blacks or Asians. Each European ethnic group has different phenotypic elements which it shares with some groups and doesn't with others. Obviously no groups have the exact same variation of genotypic and phenotypic characteristics, but these characteristics are almost never exclusive to any one group in particular. Finnic and Baltic peoples for example would share much in common that would make it difficult to distinguish them from each other solely on appearance, but distinguishing them from Brits or peoples of the Balkans would be somewhat easier. Genetically, the differences generally vary in a similar context. Genes of English and Scots for example are much more similar than between English and Finns. I enjoy discussing this Alun but Im going to try and make my comments shorter as time is something I dont have plenty of right now with exams approaching. Even a procrastinator like me needs to buckle down eventually. Cheers, Epf 07:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes I think we agree more than disagree. Nice to get a different perspective. Good luck with the exams. Cheers. Alun 13:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British people pages

I'm no longer going to do any work on these pages. I'm fed up with the bickering and blatant POV peddling. I am also sick of the fact that no one seems to want to try to get consensus, they just want to argue their own particular POV add infinitum. As far as I'm concerned you are free to produce the most POV and least accurate, unreferenced article on wikipedia, I wash my hands of them all. I also thought that it is odd of you to claim that wikipedia is not taken seriously by academics because of it's lack of proper sources (but you will find no references in any other encyclopedia), then to go on to say that this is a good reason not to include references. Alun 05:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern ethnic group of Saxons vs. modern day Saxons

Sorry Epf, your statement is not or only partially correct. Right is; the term Saxon / Saxons is often used to describe not original Saxon related things. For example, the “Free State of Saxony" has completely no connection to the ethnic definition of Saxon. Their citizens are ethnically south Germanic origin, like Bavarians or Swabians. For more information about this please see the German wikipedia article about “Saxons”. (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen_%28Volk%29)

In any case there exist a (present) ethnic group with the name Saxons (Westphalia & Lower Saxony), and more or less; they are beside the English people also the descendants of the historical Saxons. Such as, there exists as well the ethnic group of Bavarians, historical Bavarii, or the Swabians, historical known as Alamanni.

I believe this link to the (present) ethnic group of Saxons (and therefore Germans) is in reality a political question. Particularly in England exists in this matter a lot of aversion. (Please observe I am not German.) However, in fact there is absolutely no valid reason to deny a connection with the present ethnic group of Saxons. --lorn10 10:05, 04. April 2006 (CEST)

[edit] English as Germanic ( vs Enzedbrit)

Just saying thanks for replying to him on my talk page and basically saving me the bother - i really couldnt be assed. Ive had the odd look at some of this guys edits and ive noticed your somewhat ongoing 'battle' with him over a few pages and you have my sympathies - i really dont have the patience to deal with that kind of user. An Siarach

[edit] Hey there

Hi Alun. I hope Im not coming across too harshly on the Talk:Irish people page as it is not my intention and I am not trying to force my POV onto others or compeltely disregard others POV. I am just trying to present the facts and information that I believe and know are correct. But I do accept others POV and opinions. User:Enzedbrit has been very very irritating to me, editing my user page a few times and has been consistent with insults and ridiculous behaviour when it comes to discussions. In short, he has some serious personal issues to contened with and this is why debates with him go nowhere as he seems to be greatly threatened by my discussions/POV as well as any evidence and reasoning to support it. As to what we were debating on the Talk page for Irish people, I belive you should really read some of the works by Carleton Coon. Yes his typological and "race" models are obsolete, but much of the historical information and physical appearance/characteristics data gathered on European peoples showing their variation is the best available (even if from 1939). His history relating to his conclusions is also quite reliable but yet again, it needs mentioning just how false and out of date much of his theories are also. The most striking matter of his work is not only the obvious correlations with the commonly observed physical apperance of different European groups and regions, but also with modern findings of populatoin genetics. I really am working hard on finishing an article revealing these correlations. Some of Coons data from 1939 can be viewed here: [1] Cheers, Epf 10:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

EPF, you are a liar and a trouble maker, and I have NEVER edited your user page. Enzedbrit 03:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Wow, this just goes to show how you cant be reasoned with on anything in Wikipedia. Dont you recall the time you put your ignorant comments on my user page ? What about your incessant insults and petty name-calling during debates and discussions ? What about your arrogant and derogatory viewpoints ? You are an ignorant and abusive user who misunderstands peoples comments and obviously cant be taken seriously on any topic. Read the history of edits of my user page on the date of January 14, 2006 (vandalism by Enzedbrit). There is no understanding with you on anything. Enough already. Epf 04:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rosalind Franklin

Hi Epf, you could do me a favour if you have the time. I recently did a major edit of Rosalind Franklin and have now submited it for peer review. You seem to have a good eye for detail and good observational skills, you are also a good critic. I would be grateful if you could find time to read the article and make some comments on the article's peer review page. I would very much appreciate it. Thanks in advance if you have time, if you don't have the time or inclination then I understand. Alun 10:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English people

French people has again been added to the related ethnic groups section. Please do not remove it without an explanation on the talk page. You cannot leave out French people because it might be offensive, since the Norman invasion French culture and language have had a profound effect on English ethnicity and identity, if someone finds it offensive then I would suggest it says more about them than anything else. There is an ongoing discussion on the talk page about what ethnic groups to include or exclude, please join the discussion so we can get consensus before making unilateral decisions to remove an ethnic group. I see Cornish has been added, but there was a consensus on the talk page to remove it. One of the problems with this article is that the talk page is not being used properly. Talk pages are for discussing what to include and what not to include in the article, instead the talk page seems to be devoted to disagreements over definitions and various theries, while there seems to be a general free for all on the article page. This is what leads these petty edit wars. Alun 05:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Alun ,as you know I have been very busy with school although it is almost over (only two more exams to go) amongst other matters. Whatever time I do have on here has been mainly focused on a few others which are more important right now. Lol, I only meant that as a joke since my dad's family is English and obviously there is a long period of rivalry between French and English peoples. I do have to say that from what I did read on the talk page, there was no consensus whatsoever on not including Cornish people and I will argue why it deserves to be included at a later time. The Norman invasion of 1066 to me doesntm erit French inclusion, the Normans were in no way representative of either the wider French culture and ethnicity at that time or of it now. Most of the influences they brought into England were in widespread contintenal usage (e.g. feudalism) and the only really French impact they had was on certain parts of the language. In ethnic terms, I think it should be remembered that the Normans were themselves Vikings and Viking descendants who adapted aspects of northern French culture, language and surnames while on their fairly brief continental sojourn in Normandy. Epf 21:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The Normans were Franco-Norsemen in much the same way that in the Danelaw there were Anglo-Danes. Related ethnic groups are not the same as derivative ethnic groups, and the number of Normans introduced into the country is irrlevant, we are not talking about race. It also doesn't matter that they were the descendants of Vikings (and incidentally native Normans as well), as you point out they adapted aspects of northern French culture, language and surnames, but this is at the heart of ethnicity, they adopted a French ethnicity. If you read the Ethnic group article you will note that ethnic groups can be of recent creation, they do not have to be ancient and they do not have to be racial, though there may be a perception of both, the perception may be false. I don't understand what you mean by their fairly brief continental sojourn in Normandy, the Kings of England remained Dukes of Normandy untill 1204 and claimed Normandy untill 1259. The whole English aristocracy was replaced by foreigners who spoke French, and the language of the court of England remained French for several centuries after the conquest. The Norman usurpation had a profound and dramatic effect on England and the English, the whole social structure was changed and England fought numerous wars with the French king because of the association of the English King with Normandy, most notably the Hundred Years' War. The Queen still uses Norman French language when she gives Royal Assent to parliamentary Bills. We have Dukes, Counts, Viscounts and Barons because of the Normans. One only has to look at the list of King's names to see that these changed dramatically after 1066, there are primarily French names after this time, whereas there were Old English names before this time. This is also reflected in names in society at large, John for example is a common name in England, but this is derived from the French Jean, but how many Egberts are there? Likewise numbering of Kings starts affresh after 1066, and no (or very little) Anglo-Saxon history is taught in British schools, we go straight from the Roman Empire to 1066 with no real mention of the intervening time. I would suggest that this is the most important and profound event in English recorded history and culture, the English were suddenly being ruled by a French speaking foreigh nobility, and their whole orientation for the next 400 years or so would be towards France. And of course there is the not insignificant fact that English Kings also held other parts of France many were Counts of Angou for example. Of course there is also the small matter of the Frankish people being ethnically related to the Anglo-Saxons as well. I really think you want to remove the French because you personally don't like them being there rather than for any other reason. I am going to copy this discussion to the English people talk page so it is available to others. Please ad any additional comments there. Alun 06:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Alun ,again this is me you are talking to, I know my English medieval history and you do not have to re-iterate it here (trying to spare you some time in future discussions). The Normans adapted aspects of French culture and language but that is not solely ethnicity and the Normans were always considered separate and distinct from the rest of the peoples of France and the French aristocracy (they were vassals to the French crown until the incorporaton of the English monarchy)). They retained several aspects of thir Scandinavian roots and incorporated these influences as well to create the Norman language which was fairly distinct from Parisian French then and still today remains to be a different dialect. One of the main factors, and in most cases the most dinstinguishing factorin ethnicity, is descent/common genealogy and this is something the Normans also did not share mostly with the peoples of France as again, they were largely of Viking origins. What I meant by brief continental sojourn is that the Normans had only settled in Normandy (as well as every where else they went) in relatively few numbers and were there for a short period of time before they went on to conquer other lands such as England and Sicily. The Normans themselves only constituted of the upper-most classes wherever they went, and even when they conquered England, the Anglo-Norman form of French was seen as distinct from that spoken by the court of the French monarchs in Paris. I do not deny that they did not have a massive effect on England, but in ethnic/descent terms they did not have a significant impact and in terms of culture, they did not introduce anything into England or English ethnicity/identity which can be considered distinctly French. The only uniquely French influence was on the language but the amount of loanwords and other linguistic influence can be compared to the level of Frankish Germanic influence on the French language. Linguists also often debate that many English words which are often attributed to Norman-French origins, could easily as be attributed to Latin influence from the Church both prior to and after the Norman conquest. In terms of ethnicity/descent, culture and identity, I as well as I have to admit most historians and anthropologists, do not consider the English in any way related to the French people or culture on the same scale as with other groups, and especially when one considers the fact that the Normans themselves assimilated into the cultures wherever they went, including England, where they became (Anglo-Normans). They were long known to be aristocrats and warriors who were always adaptive of the culture of the lands in which they gained/conquered and the "Norman" influences on English culture and identity were not distinctly French in any shape or form. As regards to the Franks, they were somewhat culturally related to the Franks in the sense they were both Germanic but it is believed by most historians that one of the largest reasons for the Anglo-Saxon migration was pressure from the Frankish and other tribes of the Holy Roman Empire moving into their homelands near the Frisian cost and southern Jutland. It is widely agreed that the Anglo-Saxons/Frisians were separate Germanic peoples from those of the rest of Germany (and the Frisians continue to be so to this day). The Franks did have an influence on France in forming its aristocracy and monarchy as well as having an impact on the Gallo-Romance languages there, however, I do not see how this results in the English being significantly related to the French as it isn't really accepted that Frankish tribes took part in the Anglo-Saxon migrations (again largely due to the fact it is believed they were part of its cause in the first place). To end on a different note, I have no problems whatsoever with French and in fact I am insulted by that since many of my friends are French-Canadian, I myself am bilingual and I live in a country where French culture is very important to the national identity. I'm sorry to say I wouldn't expect such a comment like this from you Alun. Cheers, Epf 08:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British people pages

I'm no longer going to do any work on these pages. I'm fed up with the bickering and blatant POV peddling. I am also sick of the fact that no one seems to want to try to get consensus, they just want to argue their own particular POV add infinitum. As far as I'm concerned you are free to produce the most POV and least accurate, unreferenced article on wikipedia, I wash my hands of them all. I also thought that it is odd of you to claim that wikipedia is not taken seriously by academics because of it's lack of proper sources (but you will find no references in any other encyclopedia), then to go on to say that this is a good reason not to include references. Alun 05:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I never said anywhere that Wikipedia's prevalence of POV and lack of sourcing/referencing is a "good reason not to include references". You, as is the case in many of our discussions, misunderstand what I've said and in fact I supported your comments on how proper referencing is needed. I merely point out that Wikipedia is often expressed as being unreliable in academic circles in various news articles, reports, etc. Epf 05:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] 3RR

Hi, you've been reported for violating 3RR at WP:AN3#User:Epf reported by User:Rex Germanus (result: 12h each). I wasn't the one who blocked you, so I am afraid your questions to me are misdirected. I can see that the opponent (who reported you) was blocked as well. Here's a record from your blocklog: 02:56, 28 May 2006 William M. Connolley blocked "Epf (contribs)" with an expiry time of 12 hours (Dutch people) Cheers. ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irish people

Hi, we need some images of modern Irish people that are in the public domain or are under a free license, unfortunately there aren't that many. There are quite a few of Seamus Heaney on uni type sites who might release the image under a free license. Arniep 23:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

Sorry about the revert on Immigration, daft git that I am, didn't see the second page of the article. Alun 10:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't really follow football, but will probably watch a few England games, I always like to support the home nations when they make it to a big tournament. At least we will get them at a sane time of day this time, unlike in Korea/Japan, but I suppose it will not be so great for you. All the best. Alun 13:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hello Evan, I do miss our frank exchanges, would like to exchange emails if it's OK with you? I may have appeared intransigent during our discussions, and I'm sorry if you ever percieved that I was personally against you, it was never the case. I can be stubborn, I blame my Geordie grandmother, she was a stubborn old so and so. I would be very interested to have more one to one conversations about life the universe and everything with you if you are up for it? I'm quite interested in Canada, I used to listen to Radio Canada International up untill quite recently, and was very interested in the suggestion on your talk page about comparing genetics with physical anthropology. I think you are right when you say that we probably have more in common than than we realise, I think we are both aggressive posters on talk pages, but that we both take the other perspective into account and respond to it, even if we do not agree with it. If you would like to take me up on my offer then you can mail me at alun.parsons and it's @helsinki.fi. All the best, no bad feelings if you decline. Alun 20:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massive Vandalism on Spanish People Article

Hi Evan

User GustaX is doing some serious damage on the Spanish people article. He has erased half of it and is trying to impose some funny ideas. Please give me a hand and if you know any administrators try to get the page protected and this user banned.

Thanks--Burgas00 15:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Thanks for the thought Epf, but I'm a graduate student in medieval Scottish history, I'm not really in need of basic information about Norse settlement in Scotland; and even if I were, I have ready access to better sources than anything on the web. Thanks anyway. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help fight systematic bias

Dear Epf,

I would like to draw your attention to the discussion currently ongoing at Talk:Popsicle. If you are interested in helping to counter systematic bias towards North America, and instead establish Wikipedia as an international website, then please feel welcome to contribute with your opinions. Thank you. EuroSong talk 19:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Afrikaners...

Hi Epf... regarding this edit: why are you adding Dutch? I've looked at the talk archive and can find no argument for why this is necessary. Afrikaners speak Afrikaans, not Dutch. In fact, I speak Afrikaans but have a lot of trouble with Dutch. Mikker (...) 20:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I did see that sub-section (language) but fail completely to see how that supports adding Dutch. People who speak Portuguese can also understand quite a bit of Spanish, those who speak Afrikaans can also understand quite a bit of Flemish, but in neither of these cases (nor in the hundreds of others) is it appropriate to add these languages to boxes in articles on other languages. If, for example, u favour adding Dutch to Afrikaans u also have to favour adding Afrikaans to Dutch, etc. etc.
The statement "the two are so closely related that it can be difficult to distinguish in some cases whether the person is speaking Afrikaans or the more standard form of Dutch" is completely false BTW. Maybe it is difficult to tell for an outsider but I know immediately what someone is speaking. In fact, when someone speaks Afrikaans who is Dutch (i.e. they've lived in SA for a long time) I can *still* tell, as can most people. (Jokes abound about this). And, erm, in which schools are Dutch taught? I have a big Afrikaans extended family (plenty of children) and I don't know anyone who is learning Dutch.
I can understand Dutch if I try very hard (I've practised on a Dutch TV channel for a bit) but it is sufficiently different for it to stand out. Mikker (...) 22:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
"Afrikaans was considered a Dutch dialect until the late 19th century, when it began to be recognised as a distinct language, and it gained equal status with Dutch and English as an official language in South Africa in 1925." [2]. Mikker (...) 02:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
  • This doesnt't negate the fact that many Afrikaners other than you understand and speak standard Dutch easily and that there are numerous linguists that still classify it is a dialect of Dutch since it is more mutually intelligible to standard Dutch than are other Dutch dialects in Belgium and the Netherlands. Since "Afrikaan" itself is simply the Dutch word for "African", I suppose it can stay as is but the whole "Afrikaners" article reeks of some very extereme-nationalist agenda to make Afrikaners some amazingly disinct group although they are quite heterogenous and many still feel part of their various European ethnic origins. Epf 04:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About vandalizing Finnish people

You wrote: "it is known the Finnic peoples migrated into the Baltic area from farther east in Siberia". Fisrt, no one has claimed Siberia, instead Volga region has been claimed. Second, that is an old theory, abandoned by many researchers. Indo-Europeans, Swedes included, are originally from Asia. Finno-Ugric peoples are older Europeans than you. So stop, you obviosly do not know much about the subject. --Jaakko Sivonen 10:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is an older theory that is still widely held by most academics and Finnic migrations from Siberia are backed by genetic, historical, anthropolgical and archaeological evidence. The easiest evidence to look at is the existence of closely related peoples and languages to the Finns which still exist in Siberia today, liek the Komi people. Swedes do in large part trace alot of origins to the Halstatt Iron Age culture originally from central asia but most Europeans can claim a majority of old Paleolithic and Neolithic ancestry. Epf 10:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Please source your claim of "most academics". It certainly is not. There IS no historic or archaeologic evidence of that. Linguistics links the Swedes to Kurdis and Urdu speakers too... It has been suggested for example that the whole area between the Baltic Sea and the Urals was inhabited by Finnic peoples. Kalevi Wiik's theory is gaining popularity nowadays --Jaakko Sivonen 11:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


PLease source YOUR claims stating otherwise. There IS ample genetic evidence stating such, just look up Cavalli-Sforzas autosomal analysis on the origins of Europeans. There is obviously also plenty historical and archaeological evidence pointing out to the migration of the Sammi and Baltic Finns from Siberia into lands earlier held by the Balts and other peoples. The Komi are part of the same Finno-Permic family of related languages and the Komi share many cultural aspects witht he Baltic Finns, especially the Saami who have less Germanic cultural influence than the Finns or Estonians. Epf 11:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

In another study genetics have also supported genetical closeness to Flanders etc.. You say there are historic and archaeological evidence - please give them! NO ONE here in Finland thinks that the Finns came from Siberia! As I said, Volga area is the traditional view, not Siberia. --Jaakko Sivonen 11:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The sources Epf has provided are those that are accepted by virtually all academics in the field. Kalevi Wiik's theories have been soundly rebutted by academics both inside and outside Finland. JdeJ 12:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Älä selitä. Ei kukaan ajattele suomalaisten tulevan Siperiasta. Volgan mutkaa on kyllä ehdotettu, mutta sehän ei ole Siperiassa. --Jaakko Sivonen 14:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Surely you must understand that it's impolite to post at a user page in language that the user (Epf) does not understand. I agree with your point, I find the Volga region a more likely Finnish Urheimat than Siberia, but thatäs not the point here. You have been inserting lots of claims without any sources to back them up, reinsterted them when they are edited out and accused Epf of vandalism for no reaon at all. JdeJ 15:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


I do not want to sound impolite, and I think it is important to fight against nationalistic POV in Wikipedia. But surely you, Epf, are on wrong tracks now. Swedes having their origins in the Hallstatt culture? Certainly not: I have never heard of any Swedish archaeologist suggesting a mass migration from Central Europe to Scandinavia during the Early Iron Age. The Hallstatt culture coming from Central Asia? Are you sure? I think Hallstatt culture developed from the earlier Tumulus and Urnfield cultures in Central Europe. The Komi living in Siberia? Well, some do, but AFAIK they have migrated there during the medieval or post-medieval period. And this is something that strucks me speechless: Historical and archaeological evidence of Sami and Finnic migration from Siberia? Sure as hell, absolutely NO. This theory is certainly not backed by any academic having elementary knowledge of this matter. I cannot possibly imagine where you have got this weird idea. You must have been using obsolete and worthless sources.
The following sentences are not POV but a completely neutral summary of the archaeological mainstream view in Finland and neighbouring countries: "Archeological data suggests the spreading of at least cultural influences from many sources ranging from the south-east to the south-west following the geographical realities with gradual developments rather than clear cut migrations". The migrationist view was debunked already in the late 1970´s, and the Siberian Urheimat was never the dominant hypothesis. I can a provide a whole lot of Finnish references, but I presume you would not be able to read them.
Kind regards, --217.112.242.181 11:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
  • First of all, its important to fight against so-called "nationalisitic POV" but so is fighting again "extreme leftist, assimilationist and anti-ethnic POV", but this does not involve either in my opinion. The Swedes do have trace their cultural heritage originally to the Halstatt Nordic (Germanic) Iron Age Culture which did originially migrate from further east in Europe. If you've never heard of this migration of culture and people during the Iron Age, than clearly you do not have much knowledge in the migrations theories or anthropology and archaeology on this subject matter. The Komi do not live in Siberia, your correct, but they live only just west of the Ural mountains. They, along with the other Finno-Permic speaking peoples are widely believed to have originally migrated from further east in Siberia or Central Asia. There is some archeological evidence from Russia and Karelia and definitely historical sources which have suggested an origin further east. In any case, genetic analysis has shown they clearly have an origin somewhere further east, either Siberia or somewhere in Central Asia. I don't know how you diasgree with this because its obviously nowhere considered an obsolete idea and is widely believed by most academics on the matter. All you really need to look into is Cavalli-Sforzas autosomal analysis on the originis of Europeans to see the Finno-Urgic migration from the east.

The migrationist theory was never "debunked" in the 70's and physical anthropological and modern genetic anlysis proves the central asian origins of many Finno-Urgic peoples. Cultural diffusion has itself come under increased scrutiny in recent years and is not held with any more regard by academics on the subject than are migrationist theories (migration theories do not necessarily imply the compelte replacement of an earlier populaton, just that there was a significant movement of people into the area, usually intermingling with the older population). Sorry, I haven't any knowledge of Finnish (though I'd like to learn), I only speak Italian and English fluently and have some knowledge of French. Ciao, Epf 21:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Look, virtually NO scientist has seriously suggested in the 20th or 21st century that Finnic peoples mass-migrated from Central Asia or Siberia and that is a damn fact. The traditional view was indeed the migration from the Volga area (which is in Europe), but that is not popular among the sientists anymore, that is another fact. Nor do the Finnish history books tell of a mass-migration from the East as a fact anymore, rather as a traditional and disputed theory. --Jaakko Sivonen 15:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • You really do have some crazy and non-academic agenda on this subject don't you. Virtually every anthropologist and professor I've met and read from on this subject area HAS seriously suggested that there was a migration of Finnic peoples from further east in Asia. Where do you think they came from ? We already know the first Europeans were here in the Paleolithic yet Finnic peopels in Europe can trace the majority of their heritage to the Neolithic. The migration from the Volga (and originally further east in central asia) is obviously still mostly held by academics on the issue since barely any new evidence has debunked it, but rather only confirmed it. How could "Finnish history books" tell of some mass-migration that happened many centuries before such literature could be compiled ? The theory is barely disputed by any academics and as I have shown, has been only suported even more my modern genetic research by Cavalli-Sforza (one study which I do consider very reliable, and this is coming forom someone who is very skeptical about current populaton genetics analysis). Ciao, Epf 07:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My answers to Epf

The Swedes do have trace their cultural heritage originally to the Halstatt Nordic (Germanic) Iron Age Culture which did originially migrate from further east in Europe. If you've never heard of this migration of culture and people during the Iron Age, than clearly you do not have much knowledge in the migrations theories or anthropology and archaeology on this subject matter.

Frankly, this is getting really strange. First of all, Hallstatt culture in the present area of Austria, Southern Germany, Eastern France etc. is usually considered mainly Celtic, not exclusively Germanic and absolutely not Nordic. Hallstatt culture influence in Scandinavia was not that huge; I think that the later La Tené culture had more influence. And in any case, that is just about culture, not about the origins of the population. I am pretty certain that there is not an archaeologically attested theory of a significant migration from the Hallstatt culture to Scandinavia. Of the suspicion of myself having not "much knowledge" in the migration theories in archaeology...well, I really cannot be offended, because I have similar thoughts of you. At least I have read something about the European Iron Age. I know that significant cultural diffusion or migration from the Eurasian nomad cultures towards Central Europe existed, but does that equal "Hallstatt culture" having migrated as an entity...I doubt so.
Modern Swedes trace their cultural heritage to Martin Luther, King Gustav Vasa, 19th century nationalism and 20th century welfare state ideology; but the cointinuing archaeological succession of cultures in Swedes starts during the Mesolithic, and AFAIK the last time of a possible major prehistoric migration wave to Sweden was during the Battle-Axe culture.

They (the Komi), along with the other Finno-Permic speaking peoples are widely believed to have originally migrated from further east in Siberia or Central Asia.

Hmmm, there is a possibility that you refer to some new information I do not have. But please provide references. And that´s just about the Finno-Permians, not about all Finno-Ugrians.

There is some archeological evidence from Russia and Karelia and definitely historical sources which have suggested an origin further east.

Where do you get this from? Please provide sources, if they exist. It is a commonly accepted view that according to archaeology and linguistics the Balto-Finnic populations in Karelia and Finland had reached their present living areas a lot before anybody started to produce any historical evidence of them.

In any case, genetic analysis has shown they clearly have an origin somewhere further east, either Siberia or somewhere in Central Asia. I don't know how you diasgree with this because its obviously nowhere considered an obsolete idea and is widely believed by most academics on the matter.

(I presume "they" means here Balto-Finnic peoples, not just some Finno-Ugrians or specifically the Komi. My apologies if I got your point wrong.) I disagree because not a single Finnish scientist - an archaeologist, a linguistic, a geneticist - seems to agree with your point, at least as far as the Balto-Finnic peoples are concerned. Obviously it is considered obsolete (in fact, anti-scientific) idea in Finland. And you do not provide sources.

All you really need to look into is Cavalli-Sforzas autosomal analysis on the originis of Europeans to see the Finno-Urgic migration from the east...The migrationist theory was never "debunked" in the 70's and physical anthropological and modern genetic anlysis proves the central asian origins of many Finno-Urgic peoples.

A view of a single scientist, working with a young and developing science? Is this a hypothesis or a fact. Some geneticists and physical anthropologists have produced very different interpretations of their materials, such as the theory of the different genetic origin of the western and eastern Finno-Ugrians. Who should I believe? Edit. Sorry, I noticed only now your words "many Finno-Ugric peoples". I presume that does not mean "all Finno-Ugric peoples". Obviously that does not need to include the Balto-Finnic populations in the present area of Finland, Estonia, Northwestern Russia etc.? My knowledge of the eastern Finno-Ugrians is limited, but they have little to do with Finland. The Finnish archaeology suggests a strong settlement and population continuity from the Mesolithic, or very least from the Sub-Neolithic period onwards in Finland. The distribution of Finnish Sub-Neolithic cultures (Comb Ceramic Culture) has been a matter of migrationist/diffusionist debate in Finland. However, their origin has been traced to the Upper Volga and Upper Dniepr rivers, not further east. Despite our disagreement, best regards and appreciation.--217.112.242.181 09:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NB neutral point of view

I'm not involved in this discussion and am supremely disinterested as to the geographical origins of the people(s) the Finns may or may not be descended from. I would make this point quite forcibly though. Wikipedia is not a soap box. The neutral point of view policy clearly states that when differing points of view exist, all points of view should be given space in an article. If there is no consensus in the academic community as to the origins of the Finns, then all points of view should be included in the article, giving no prominence or undue weight to any particular pov. All this is contingent upon proper verifiability. Alun 15:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I will answer this all in due time but I have better things to do right now. Jaako or the numbered user thats editing such (probably him) really is confusing what hes reading and relying too much on unsoruced claims on Wikipedia articles. eg. "The Halstatt culture in the present area of Austria, Southern Germany, Eastern France etc. is usually considered mainly Celtic" -this is ludicras and I've only heard very few academics make such a claim. The culture is defined by technological means and was originally spread from further east in europe. The celts are believed to originally have belonged to this culture but it is ALSO attributed to the proto-Germanic tribes which also belived to have migrated from further east. The La Tene culture is more closely associated with the Celts than the Halstatt. More to follow.... Epf 05:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
You don't need to answer this, you just need to bear it in mind while having discussions about what to include in articles. Articles do not exist to provide a single point of view, all points of view should be included. There do seem to be many people on wikipedia who think that only their point of view is the correct one, and that no other should be included in articles. I do not consider you one of these people, though you do have a habbit of trying to dilute povs that you don't share. Alun 07:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Alun, I do clearly feel as if I need to answer this sicne we want a balanced and neutral POV on articles. You, as usual, are putting claims that have no founding regarding me or my edits, simply because my views apparently contradict with your own ideology. I am not a person who thinks only one POV should be included in articles, I am arguing that the correct facts and balanced POV should and this involves putting arguments against others POV. Unfortunately, this Jakko character can't seem to cope with Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. Epf 07:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I am not a person who thinks only one POV should be included in articles,- That's what I said above, did you actually read what I wrote? I wrote There do seem to be many people on wikipedia who think that only their point of view is the correct one, and that no other should be included in articles. I do not consider you one of these people,. You do, however have a habbit of trying to re-word articles so as to imply that certain POVS are less valid than othere, here's as example, [3] there is no encyclopaedic merit in making the change from has added weight to this view to has added some weight to this view. The work certainly did add weight to the view, but you do not support this pov, and so you sought to undermine it by including the word some, implying that the support that was added was of limited merit. This is your judgement and therefore should not be included in the article. In effect though you are allowing the inclusion of other POVs, you are undermining the POVs that you do not support you do not do this for the povs you do support. I refer you to fairness of tone. Alun 07:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
There is no merit regarding that change in terms of referencing or validity, but there is in terms of coming across with a balanced and neutral perspective. I do not disagree with an obviously unfounded POV like that but the study itself adds weight to various theories on the subject, not just that particular theory. Also, with the nature and type of the study, it doesnt add a whole lot of weight to that view whatsoever. Actually, I have done this on several occasions to POVS I do support and for example if there is a populaton genetics study supporting a theory that I agree with, I still acknowledge how limited the testing is and that the level of support it gives IS obviously limited, as with any case. I hopes this clarifies matters for you, ciao Epf 07:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
There was no merit in what you did in regard to neutrality, to claim this is breathtakingly arrogant, it was just your opinion, and no one's opinion is neutral. Your editing is far far from neutral in my experience. The sophistry with which you tried to claim that a Brythonic contribution to the English gene pool still means a common descent, when you had claimed the opposite earlier, is just one example of how you have tried to twist certain facts when they do not support your prejudices. I have no experience of you ever acting in a neutral way. Your recent claim in Welsh people that a certain edit is only the product of a few Y chromosome and mtDNA studies is grossly missleading. You have made this claim before, for the same edit, but the paper cited uses tens of thousands of samples from many different studies, and also, most importantly it uses autosomal alleles, not just Y chromosome or mtDNA. This edit is again just a POV edit that you have made because it does not support your prejudices. You cannot keep contradicting edits that are supported by peer reviewed scientific papers just because you do not like their results. Please rather produce peer reviewed data that show a different result. The fact that all of the genetic data to date show strikingly similar results is not a coincidence as you keep trying to imply, the sooner you reconcile youself to this the better. Genetic studies in this field are few and far between, but there is a consistency in what has been found that is impossible to argue with. Y chromosome data seem to produce the same results as mtDNA data, and these in turn are now being supported by autosomal data. These data will never go away, so you might as well accept them. Alun 09:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

There was merit in what I did in regard to neutrality and I don't see how you find it arrogant whatsoever. I don't see how my editing is "far from neutral either" and clearly this is the case with you because our opinions greatly differ on many matters. Again, you misunderstand my edits and I never claimed, ever, that the British did not have a common descent to Brythonic peoples, I only said that it was not maily or entirely to these peoples, but to a mix of the pre-celtic/celtic Brythons and to the Anglo-Saxons. Also, I don't see how any of my edits can be labelled as prejudices ? The study on "Welsh people" used many samples, but not "tens of thousands" from Britain, only a few locations with greatly varying numbers in each sample and no information on the type of people the data was collected from. The information from autosomal allelles is scanty and it is not as easily measured with genetic markers as the MtDNA and Y Chrom. information is. In any case, the 80-20 Paleo.-Neo. average percentage on the Isles as a whole IS from Y Chrom. and MtDNA only. I can keep criticising these studies whether they disagree or agree with my POV since my criticisms are valid and academically founded. I have produced some studies which show different results but in most cases this is not possible because only very few (4 or 5 tops that can be found on the net) have been carried out. There is no basis that all of the genetic data show "strikingly similar results" and the studies contradict each other in some cases. Regardless of this, the studies use similar sampling techniques and methods in genetic analysis so there is bound to be some similarity, but most importantly, the researchers all clearly have some pre-conceived agenda or opinions. Y-Chrom. data do not seem to produce the same results as MtDNA data and the percentages are different in most cases, some more than others. The autosomal data is not analyzed in a similar manner and currently can not be anywhere as detailed in the same way as the Y-chrom. MtDNA analysis. New data will come and old data will go, new information replacing aspects of the old so I will continue to accept much of the data and also continue to criticise the inconsistencies and fallacies as well. Where are you going with all this Alun ? I have reliable historical and anthropological data I always rely on when viewing these studies which allows me to easily point out founded and unfounded conclusions from them. I findt that the biggest mistake people make is the over reliance on MtDNA and Y-chrom. markers when it comes to making conclusions about the the origins and descent of these peoples. Ciao, Epf 10:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I have reliable historical and anthropological data I always rely on when viewing these studies which allows me to easily point out founded and unfounded conclusions from them.
This is where I am going. Instead of trying to discredit data that do not support your opinion, you should accept these data and also accept the conclusions of the people that write the papers, it is not for us to re-interpret these papers, this would constitute original research. Instead it would be better for you to present the arguments that contradict these findings, and support these arguments by citing the historical and anthropological data you refer to above. I cannot recall a single instance of you actually providing any citable material for your edits on these pages. You make edits that try to undermine what is very good research, without actually providing any sources for this. Please find a source that is published that makes the same claims that you have regarding the genetic research and cite it. As I said above, please provide the evidence that you claim to have that contradicts these data rather than contradicting the conclusions of the authors of the paper based on your own personal interpretation of their work. You are obviously a very intelligent and capable person and are acting in good faith. You clearly have a very good understanding of anthropology, I cannot claim any expertise in this field, but I do understand genetics, I have a degree in genetics, and it seems to me that you don't really understand these papers very well. You have clearly not read the paper that supports the 80%-20% split in the British gene pool. In fact the Admixture Proportions (2 Parental Populations): All Loci section is the one that gives the 80-20 split,[4] and the mtDNA and Y chromosome data alone are used to infer four parental population admixture: Admixture Proportions (4 Parental Populations): Y Chromosome and mtDNA, this gives a 70% Basque: 21% Near East mixture.[5] As for the number of samples used, it's: Overall, 117,140 chromosomes (or 58,570 individuals) were studied, for an average of 427 chromosomes per population. The number of chromosomes analyzed at each locus varied between 15,886 and 31,594. Please read the paper before you make unfounded claims. Alun 11:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Why do I have to accept them, especially when there are fallacies and unreliability in the data and other sources which contradict them ? Wikipedia's original research policy does not forbid this or how we interpret the data and of course we are allowed to question it. Obviously the data does have to be interpreted from a neutral and balanced perspective since the data will be seen differently by various users. I have provided many citable sources and material to these articles, it just that one of my main areas of focus on Wikipedia involves population genetic studies which have already been referenced in these articles. The studies are questionable for various reasons I have previously mentioned and this is why it seems like I'm always simply critiquing articles. In articles involving origins of people, the studies are what are always at the forefront which is why they need to be criticized, especially in the way they are interpreted in the article. I have cited information which shares my skepticism about many studies, and its usually taken from the study itself. The only reason you are making claims to the contrary is because it happens that my criticism of these studies does not coincide with your own opinons and edits involving such genetics studies. As with regards to these papers, I also have a (smaller) background in genetics since it is increasingly part of biological anthropology and my undergrad. program actually requires a few courses in it. I do understand these papers quite well, including that one and am not making unfounded claims. As I have already stated, the 80-20 split is from MtDNA and Y Chroms. and you just stated the same thing from the paper. These percentages obviously do not include the autosomal analysis since it is not measured in nowhere near as accurate or similar a manner (i.e. not in markers or haplotypes). The numbers of samples used was fairly significant, but again the 58,570 number is for ALL European samples collected,and the number of British samples and sampling areas is much smaller. As well as this, we again know little from the study what type of people the DNA studied was collected from and more sampling areas per these large regions are needed. Maybe you should also read carefully what I am stating before you make unfounded claims. Ciao Epf 11:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Why do I have to accept them, especially when there are fallacies and unreliability in the data
If you include the data, you must include the conclusions of the authors. If you have information that contradicts the conclusions then you must include this as well, but this information must also be from a reliable source. You cannot claim that they are fallacious simply because you believe it, you must provide evidence in the form of a citation from another academic work that does not accept the data. Wikipedia's original research policy absolutelly does forbid you from interpreting the data in a different way, what it does not forbid is that you provide evidence that these findings are not accepted by the entire academic community, this evidence must be from an academic publication and not just your opinion. Alun 12:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • In articles involving origins of people, the studies are what are always at the forefront which is why they need to be criticized, especially in the way they are interpreted in the article.
The way they are presented in the article should reflect the way they are presented in the original paper, if it does not then it should be reworded to reflect what the paper states. Alun 12:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • As I have already stated, the 80-20 split is from MtDNA and Y Chroms. and you just stated the same thing from the paper.
Clearly the Y chromosome and mtDNA data split 20:80, and I have nowhere suggested that they dont. It is also evident from a reading of the paper that autosomal data also split 80:20. I do not understand why you are claiming that the paper does not state this. The section in the paper dealing with a 2 parental population admixture for Europe explicitly uses the autosomal data and explicitly gives a 80:20 split. Why are you claiming that it doesn't? Either you have not read the paper, or you have not understood it, or you are deliberately ignoring the data that you do not like. Here's what the paper says With the increase of the number of systems considered (6 to 8 mitochondrial and nuclear systems, depending on the number of autosomal loci available in each population), the statistical errors of the admixture coefficients decrease substantially (all below 8%; table 4). The Near Eastern contribution is generally high, with a mean of 49.4% across Europe (range: 20.8% in England, 79.0% in the Balkans). I will revert your edit, but I am aware that I cannot revert more than three times in a 24h period, you may revert it again as you have only reverted twice (with an additional edit for the original change). I really hope you do not revert my edit again as it is clear that this finding applies to autosomal data as well as to mtDNA and Y chromosome data. I really do not understand why you are denying something that is explicitly stated in the paper. Alun 12:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • similar a manner (i.e. not in markers or haplotypes): From the paper: (4–8) five nuclear DNA loci from Chikhi et al. (1998), updated by a Medline search of the recent literature. Four of the Chikhi et al. (1998) loci are tetranucleotide microsatellites (FES/FPS, FXIIIA, HUMTH01, VWA31A), whereas DQ{alpha} is a highly polymorphic gene coding for the {alpha}-chain of the HLA-DQ molecule. Alun 12:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Alun, the Wikipedia original research policy does not forbid users from stating that a source or study has limitations or that it is only a small example of evidence used in what conclusions it may or may not claim. In any case, this is always mentioned in the article (i.e. population genetics is a new science; many more studies need to be carried out; results not fully conclusive, etc.) and most of time it is the conclusions and POV that is put into the article and in a different wording from the study which is what I am at odds with, especially when it omits many important points from the study about any consclusions or points which may be drawn from it. In any case, it obviosuly does not just have to be from my opinion, but as long as its from a neutral perspective of various users who also disagree with a sources validity or justification in being included in a section or article.

  • the Wikipedia original research policy does not forbid users from stating that a source or study has limitations
The original research policy states that you cannot state that a study has limitations if it is only your opinion, if you are expressing the published opinions of other scientists, that is fair enough. The WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V policies go hand in hand. If you want to cite a study, cite it, if you want to include a criticism of the study, find a reputable source that makes the criticism and cite that. All three policies forbid you to criticise a cited source just because it is your opinion, by all means criticise it, but provide a reputable scientific published source that criticises it, and cite that. If the work is as bad as you claim (though other scientists have peer reviewed it and passed it) it should be easy for you to find a citable source that criticises it. Alun 06:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • In any case, this is always mentioned in the article- cite this then. Alun 06:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • it obviosuly does not just have to be from my opinion- What I take offence with is that you try to qualify every word. If an article states for example that a certain paper supports a certain position, this is an already qualified statement, it is not claiming that it proves it, just that it supports it. But you are going mad with your qualifications, you are likely to change it to might just about probably support something quite similar to a certain position that might just be close to this. There is no excuse for this excessive qualification of an already qualified statement, it's only purpose is to introduce bias into the article. I have never seen you adding content that detracts from Bede or Gildas, for example, these are hardly reliable sources, but then they support your point of view don't they? You will observe that I have not made any changes to references to Bede or Gildas because I think it is important to include all points of view equally. Alun 06:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It is also evident from a reading of the paper that autosomal data also split 80:20 - I have read this study twice now and please do go and show me where exactly the autosomoal analysis is and how exactly they measure such, or where they are able to claim that the autosomal variatoin in the English gene pool is an 80-20 split. You are misreading the study, especially in what it means by autosomal loci in the analysis. The section from the study you did post does not reflect an autosomal amalysis and this makes sense since the study does claim to be able to make such: With the increase of the number of systems considered (6 to 8 mitochondrial and nuclear systems, depending on the number of autosomal loci available in each population). The percentages are drawn up from the mitochondrial (MtDNA) and nuclear (Y-chromosome) markers, and none of the percentages is from analysis of autosomes (all human autosomal chromosomes themselves are nowhere even near to being completely "mapped out" and understood, so even if some were analyzed it would not be based on all 22 autosomes). I really don't understand how you are claiming that this is explicitly stated in the paper when this i s not the case. There are graphs and data showing various MtDNA and Y-chromsome frequenices, but nothing stating it is from autosomal DNA. Please state where they have used autosomal analysis in the 80-20 percentage since to me, you still have not done so. Ciao, Epf 13:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


  • This is the mitochondrial system, a single locus:
(1) 2,349 sequences of the mitochondrial hypervariable region I (HVR-I) from 34 samples, collected by Simoni et al. (2000), and repeatedly updated (see Vernesi et al. 2002; Caramelli et al. 2003)


  • These are the Y chromosome systems, two loci (these do indeed represent two of the nuclear systems):
(2) eleven binary markers from the non-recombining region of the Y chromosome (hereafter NRY) in 42 populations for a total of 3,290 individuals, from Rosser et al. (2000);
(3) 22 binary markers of NRY in 27 populations for a total of 1,096 individuals, from Semino et al. (2000) and (for North Africa) Underhill et al. (2000);


  • You will observe that the mitochondrial locus and Y-chromosome loci represent three systems (a single mt system and two Y chromosome systems). In the four parental analysis only these three systems are used. In the two parental analysis they use 6-8 systems. This is because there are five autosomal loci used in addition to the above in the second analysis. In some of the populations a couple of the autosomal systems were not available, which resulted in the use of 6 rather than eight systems. Please observe that autosomal systems are better represented than either Y chromosome or mt DNA systems. There is never more than a single mtDNA system, and never more than two Y chromosome systems, but there is at least three autosomal systems.


  • These are the autosomal systems, five loci (these also represent nuclear systems):
(4–8) five nuclear DNA loci from Chikhi et al. (1998), updated by a Medline search of the recent literature. Four of the Chikhi et al. (1998) loci are tetranucleotide microsatellites (FES/FPS, FXIIIA, HUMTH01, VWA31A), whereas DQ{alpha} is a highly polymorphic gene coding for the {alpha}-chain of the HLA-DQ molecule. For each of these five markers, the number of population samples ranged between 33 and 68 with a mean of 55 samples and a total of 278. Overall, 117,140 chromosomes (or 58,570 individuals) were studied, for an average of 427 chromosomes per population. The number of chromosomes analyzed at each locus varied between 15,886 and 31,594.
Here is a list of the chromosomes the autosomal systems (4-8) come from:[6]
  • FES/FPS - 15
  • FXIIIA - 6
  • HUMTH01 - 11
  • VWA31A - 12
  • DQalpha - 6
  • I really don't see why you are disputing this. It clearly states in the Abstract of the article that they use autosomal analysis. It is clear that the two population model uses these autosomal loci for the analysis. They say it clearly, and Chikhi et al. also publish the number of the chromosome the loci are located on. They also publish a table (for two parental population) where they show the neolithic contribution to the British Isles is about 20% [7], and a graphic where it is evident that the paleolithic contribution to Britain is higher than it is on the continent. [8] You say you have read the paper twice, I suggest you try to understand it next time rather than assuming you already know what it says. You either just cannot admit when you are wrong, or you seriously do not understand these genetic papers at all. If the latter is the case, that you do not understand this work, how can you expect to be taken seriously when you comment onit? Alun 06:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)




Well, yes, I agree that "mainly Celtic" was an incorrect expression, but I think it was really bizarre to call the Hallstatt culture "Germanic" or "Nordic", although, as far as I know, this culture may have included some Proto-Germanic-speaking populations as well. I think it is slightly misleading to say that the Hallstatt culture has been defined by "technological means". I think it is more about style-based artefact typologies. Proto-Germanic migration from east might be some radical new hypothesis I am not aware of, but I am not quite believing it is a mainstream view, at least in Europe. Most researchers agree that there was an Indo-European migration from the east, but that is usually dated to the Neolithic and, as far as I know, before the formation of any Proto-Germanic language. But you do not really need to answer, because I am actually quite disinterested to discuss about the Hallstatt culture. I am only asking you to avoid any radical UNREFERENCED modifications in articles related to Finland, because that can be too easily to be interpreted as biased POV and pushing of fringe theories. I must disapprove some of your recent modifications in the article Finnish people. A significant part of the article, fully in accordance with the established research, was repeatedly deleted by you - and you were not providing any references.
By the way, I am not Jaakko Sivonen, and I am not relying on Wikipedia articles but archaeological literature, although I admit having only basic knowledge of the Early Iron Age in Continental Europe. 217.112.242.181 09:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I was referring to the those who were part of that culture and who were the proto-Germanic peoples which is why I simply referred to it as a "Germanic" or "Nordic" Halstatt culture. Where did I ever say that the Hallstatt culture has been defined by "technological means" ??? The Halstatt and La tene culture are defined in terms of certain artifacts and sturctures, but since we have limited knowledge (if any) of what sort of language they spoke, we can define them most importantly by tools, minerals and other clues displaying their level of technological advancement. Proto-Germanic migration from the east is definitely not some new radical hypothesis and not only has it been around for quite some time, it is widely held by academics on the subject. Obviously the Germanic culture and people spread from further east because we know for a fact it was pre-dated in central Europe by La Tene and earlier cultures. If you disapprove of some of my recent edits on Finnish people, thats fine, but this exactly shows my point: Yours (and Jakkos or whoever) is not the only POV that deserves mention there, especially with its non-academic and controversial nature, but theres supposed to be a balanced and neutral POV. That part of the article which was removed had no references and stank of someones own ridiculous, unfounded and unreferenced POV. Everything you are claiming here is contradicting itself. Epf 07:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
A direct quote from you: "The [Halstatt] culture is defined by technological means" (see your own comment above). As long as you are declining to provide any sources for your often astonishing views it is not your business to call anyone "non-academical". I do not consider some of your claims academical or scientific at all, although I accept you might know more than me about some topics. Your interest to contribute to the article Finnish people is surprising in the sense I find it hard to believe you actually know so much about Finns and their history. The part you suspected as "ridiculous and unfounded" summarized well what the Finnish archaeologists and linguistics have been thinking since the 1970`s. Please do not assume to know better. Only the claim "The closest genetic relatives of Finns are found in Estonia and apart from that, in Flanders and Germany" was a problematic one and POV. There is no contradiction in my claims. However, this conversation does not serve any purpose. Happy autumn, --05:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC).
  • In that quote I am pointing out that it is mainly the "technolgically-related" artifacts relating to that culture that ae key in defining it (tools, structures, etc.). How am I declining to provide any sources for my "asotnishing views" ? My views are not "astonishing" but I find it amusing that you see them as such and clearly you have some crazy agenda on the subject. I have provided genetic sources, specifically from cavalli-sforza, but also from other studies displaying the much larger neolithic and near-eastern input in eastern european populations, including Finns. I do believe its my business to point out who is using non-academic and unsourced opinions and this is exactly what has been the case with you. I do know a fair amount about Finnish and particularly Scandinavian history, but my key area of focus is anthropology and origins of especially European peoples, including the Finnic peoples. I do not understand what you mean by "what Finnish archeologists and linguists have been thinking since the 70's" since although there has been an introduction of different theories, it is still widely held that Finnic-speaking peoples migrated from further east and I have already explained the overwhelming evidence for such which is why it is rarely debated. This does not mean that modern Baltic Finns trace all their heritage to this migration, of course not, and they do trace much to populations already present before such. However, based on genetic, linguistic, archaeological and historical evidence (as well as the current existence of many other Finnic speaking peples further east) it is again widely held by academics that the Finnic language and culture was brought by peoples who migrated from further east into the Baltic region. There are various contradictons in your claims, and that quotation is only one example of your ridiculous and unsourced POV. The conversation never had any purpose I suppose other than hopefully shedding some light to you on a subject which you clearly have an awkward POV. Ciao, Epf 06:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, maybe this boils down to a mutual misunderstanding. The genetic ancestors of the Finns obviously had to migrate from somewhere: the archaeology suggests cultural (and hypothetically demic) influences from generally eastern or rather south-eastern sources in Russia during the Mesolithic and the Sub-Neolithic. The nature of influences is of course a subject of debate between the Migrationists (always the dominant view here in Finland) and Diffusionists. At the same time, some elements of continuity existed constantly from the Mesolithic period, as Finnish archaeologists have stressed for 20 - 30 years now. One Finnish archaeologists has summarized his views in English:
Christian Carpelan: On Archaeological Aspects of Uralic, Finno-Ugric and Finnic Societies before AD 800. The Slavicization of the Russian North. Edited by Jorma Koivulehto. Slavica helsingiensia 27. Helsinki 2006, pages 78 - 92.
Somehow I understood you were referring to the obsolete theory of the Balto-Finnic migration during the early Iron Age. Possibly this was because you mentioned "historical sources" referring to a Finnic migration from east; this is nonsense, as the Finnic peoples are almost undocumented before the 13th and 14th centuries CE. The Siberian Urheimat of the Finno-Ugrian peoples is one of the many different theories; apparently it still has supporters among the Hungarian Finno-Ugrists, but not among in the ones in Finland. Unfortunately, this is often discussed in Finnish and/or published in local journals, so many foreigners will find it hard to get a comprehensive over-view of the Finnish research.
My crazy and awkward POV is my wish to present correct summaries of the recent and generally accepted academical views of thge origins of the Finns. Of course, Canadian views of this subject might differ from the Finnish views. I like to think we have more expertise here in Finland, but that´s POV, after all.--217.112.242.181 07:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Please do not add nonsense to Wikipedia; it is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. --Jaakko Sivonen 11:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that Epf has not vandalised any article. He and Jaakko Sivonen have different opinions about a certain topic and I find it wrong of Jaakko to accuse Epf of vandalism just for disagreeing with him. The fact that Epf has provided sources for his statements and post claims in accordance with contemporary academic views make the accusation of vandalism all the more absurd. JdeJ 12:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source this

Please provide a source for this claim about the Swedophones in Finland:

  • "actually a great deal, the majority have some degree of significant Swedish ancestry and acknolwedge such".

Percentages, polls and such, thank you. --Jaakko Sivonen 15:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Please provide a source arguing (your point) against such. Epf 05:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems you do not understand the burden of proof. You made a positive claim, you must be able to prove it. But fine, I have discussed with many "Finland-Swedes" and most of them do not acknowledge their "Swedish ancestry"... --Jaakko Sivonen 11:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, you can not claim the "burden of proof" by somehow making yourself an exception to it. You have equally not provided references to support your opposing claims. There arent some special allowances for you in any case, especially on Wikipedia. I have viewed many topics on Finland-Swedes and the fact remains most acknolwedge the Swedish elements of both their descent and culture. Epf 07:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever discussed about the matter with one? I have. There are certainly some exceptions, Ida Asplund is one. She has indeed emphasized a "Swedish heritage", but Jan-Erik Enestam, the then leader of the Swedish People's Party, called her the "greatest enemy of Finland-Swedes" because of her comments... It was different a hundred years ago, but nowadays most consider themselves Finns or "Finland-Swedes", but not just "Swedes", as I know one who is insulted if he is called merely a Swede. About the burden of proof: you made a positive claim, i.e. that something is something. That has to be proved first before anyone has to give evidence to the contrary: for the same reason a prosecutor in court must first tell what the defendant is charged of and give evidence... --Jaakko Sivonen 17:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Have you ever dicussed the matter with Finland-Swedes from every region they are concentrated in? or even a significant number of Finland-Swedes at all ? I find it surprising if you ever did since their identification is a complex issue and invovles their ethnic origins/ancestry as well as their current national affiliation. I think you forget that the majority of this population after World War I actually desired to remain part of Sweden. I never said that they all consider themselves simply "Swedes" but that a significant number of them would consider themselves "Finland-Swedes" acknowledging elements of their distinct Swedish culture and heritage. Jan Enestam clearly is an ignorant person to label Ida Asplund as an enemy and by using such a quote you just did a great injustice to any argument you were trying to make. As for the burden of proof, I know all about this, but this is not a court of law and it still does the fact remains you equally havent or can not provde sources/evidence to support your own opinion. This is an encyclopedia and everyones opinions that they wish to include need to be supported by verified sources. I have found you to be an abusive and arrogant user btw and I'd appreciate if you'd stay off my talk page. Ciao, Epf 07:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
"I think you forget that the majority of this population after World War I actually desired to remain part of Sweden." Majority of the Åland Islanders, you mean. They are a distinct minority among Finland-Swedes, and I quess they feel themselves as "ethnically Swedish" more often than the rest of Finland-Swedes do. Of course, some early 20th century Finland-Swedish nationalists maintained similar wishes in Southern Ostrobothnia, calling themselves as East Swedes, but I have never heard of it being a majority opinion. BTW, Jan Enestam's hostility towards Ida Asplund, a leading figure in a very small organization, was shared by all Finland-Swedes I personally know (although I admit that my friends live in bilingual towns of Southern Finland and do not represent all Finland-Swedes). Also the Hufvudstadbladet, the leading Swedish newspaper in Finland, criticized Asplund's extremist views strongly.--217.112.242.181 07:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Follow up comment and question

JS (and his ip number too) clearly has limited knowledge about the situation after WWI - the area of what is called Sweden-Finland (Svenskfinland) was up for territorial and cultural autonomy after the independence (Folktinget, 1920/petition by Gabriel Nikander and Ernst von Born), the cultural issue was partly fulfilled with the creation of the constitution and the language act of 1922. The territorial requirement only to a lesser part (Borgå stift for instance). The term Svenskfinland was however quickly adopted in the 1920's. By the way, Epf, you seem quite well-read on the subject, have you dealt with this before? MoRsE 11:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Something you might find intersting

Here's an article about Anglo-Saxons and English identity you might find interesting. I don't think you'll agree with it, but I think it is at least an academic source that supports what I have been saying. Anglo-Saxon Origins: The Reality of the Myth by Malcolm Todd. All the best. Alun 10:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Autosome

WHen it says "autosomal loci", its obviously referring to the MtDNA anal. An autosome is a chromosome in the nucleus of an eucaryotic cell. Mitochondrial DNA cannot, by deffinition be autosomal. C'mon Epf do you think I don't know what I am talking about? An autosome is any non-sex chromosome. Humans have 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes. Mitochondria have a single circular strand of DNA, very similar to a bacterial chromosome (which is not really a chromosome at all). When the paper refers to autosomes it is refering to nuclear non-sex chromosomes, as I said you clearly don't know what you are talking about. These authors are geneticists and are unlikely to have made a mistake with their own data, the paper is also peer reviewed, so when they say autosome, they mean autosome, when they say mtDNA they mean mt DNA. They are not the same thing. See Autosome,[9] Mitochondrial DNA, Y chromosome.Alun 13:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Alun, I know what autosomes obviously are and I have significant knowledge in the area of population genetics. I do konw what I am saying and I havent found anywhere in the study in which the data figures are solely represented from autosomal DNA. Who do you think your talking to Alun ? Clearly I know the paper is peer reviewed and when they mention autosome, they mean autosome. This is not what I was saying however and I believe it is how you understood what they meant by their autosomal analysis which is what was misleading. I have to say this has been the most pointless entry you have made in this discussion and clearly you do not understand what points I am trying to make. I will elaborate further below in response to your other discourse. Ciao, Epf 07:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

  • havent found anywhere in the study in which the data figures are solely represented from autosomal DNA.
I have never claimed that the data are derived exclusively from autosomal loci. You have claimed that these data represent exclusively Y chromosome and mtDNA samples, which is incorrect, they have used autosomal loci as well. Alun 09:56, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I claimed that the 80-20 figure was exclusively from MtDNA and Y-Chromosomes, but yes you are right, this was not the case.

  • Who do you think your talking to Alun ?
Who do you think you are talking to? You have point blank stated that this paper uses no autosomal loci, something the paper explicitly claims to have used. When you blatantly make false claims like this it seems apparent to me that either you are so biased that you will not acknowledge the truth, or you simply do not understand the work. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that your knowledge of molecular biology is not great, rather than that you are deliberately trying to distort the work. Alun 09:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Again I blantantly did not say that this paper did not use autonsoal loci, just not in the 80-20 figure for Paleo./Neolith. contribution to the the sampled populations. My knowledge of molecular biology is quite significant as I've alraeady pointed out to you. As for the autosomal analysis, I explain in a subsequent discourse below why I did not at first perceive that autosomal analysis was included in the figures for Neolith./Paleo. contributions to the sampled populations. Epf 06:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Data are for autosomal DNA

Here's what is says in the article for Paleolithic:Neolithic split for autosomal data.

  • (4–8) five nuclear DNA loci from Chikhi et al. (1998), updated by a Medline search of the recent literature. Four of the Chikhi et al. (1998) loci are tetranucleotide microsatellites (FES/FPS, FXIIIA, HUMTH01, VWA31A), whereas DQ{alpha} is a highly polymorphic gene coding for the {alpha}-chain of the HLA-DQ molecule. For each of these five markers, the number of population samples ranged between 33 and 68 with a mean of 55 samples and a total of 278. Overall, 117,140 chromosomes (or 58,570 individuals) were studied, for an average of 427 chromosomes per population. The number of chromosomes analyzed at each locus varied between 15,886 and 31,594.
These are the five autosomal genes that were used in the analysis.
  • Here's the List of Samples Used to Estimate the Contributions of 2 Parental Populations to European Populations.. As you can see, these are autosomal genes, not the mitochondrial or Y chromosome genes.
  • These are the results to Estimate the Contributions of 2 Parental Populations, this uses 6-8 genetic systems, ie the mtDNA, the Y-chromosome DNA and the autosomal DNA. Due to the use of many more systems (and four of the systems are autosomal) the results are more reliable, hence the statement With the increase of the number of systems considered (6 to 8 mitochondrial and nuclear systems, depending on the number of autosomal loci available in each population), the statistical errors of the admixture coefficients decrease substantially (all below 8%; table 4). This indicates that these data are far more reliable due to a much lower sampling error, as there are significantly more samples. As you know, in statistics the more samples one has the better one's results are. The samples used clearly incorporate autosomal genes, and the paper states this categorically. In this two population system it is clear that in western Europe there is about a 50:50 mix of paleolithic:neolithic contribution, this itself is very different from previous Y chromosome data. Even though these data clearly show that in places like France, for example there is a greater neolithic input than previously indicated by mtDNA and Y chromosome DNA sampling, the same does not apply to England, where the relative contributions are 20:80.
  • I find it tedious in the extreme to have to lead someone by the hand through these data, they are clearly not simply the product of Y chromosome and mtDNA sampling, and the paper explicitly states that they use autosomal genetic markers for their work. I really cannot understand why you have persisted in denying what is written in black and white on the page in front of you. Alun 17:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • On a slightly different note, I find it strange that you have so hotly disputed these data, this is not only nothing new, but surely it is not abhorrent to claim that the European population is largely descended from the paleolithic and neolithic populations of the same continent? I really do wonder just where exactly you think the modern European population is derived from if not from the ancient European population? Alun 17:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Alun, after reading through your discourse here I have followed up by more thoroughly analyzing the study and I do understand which autosomal loci and chromosomes were analyzed, but it was not as apparent to me originally in the graphs which I thought was only resembling MtDNA. Clearly it is a combination of both MtDNA and Autosomal analysis in [10] but I obviously overlooked where it mentioned previously in the article about the source of the markers in the autosomal analysis. I admit I was extremely tired while editing last night and should of spent more time reading through this study. I disputed the data so easily because I simply found it hard to believe they were able to analyze Autosomal DNA so thoroughly, (although this is obviously not the case and they have identified only 4-5 loci from one or two autosomoes and are no where near to mapping out even a majority of human autosomal markers). As you know I have long agreed that Europeans originally descend from two broad migrating populations, the Paelolithic (or earlier existing peoples) and Neolithic populations and I only contested the data so hotly because of my own fallacies when analyzing the study. I appreciate what time you took out for explaining sectoins of the study and I usually am not so careless when analyzing these genetic studies. Ciao, Epf 07:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, we all get tired and miss things. It's a difficult paper to read. In actual fact the human genome has been mapped for some years now. There are of course alleles that are as yet unknown, and the vast majority of genes do not as yet have a known function, but we're getting there. Here's a site where one can actually retrieve sequences from the human genome, I have used it for mous BAC (BActerial Artificial Chromosome) work, it's great as one can actually search for a sequence in the whole genome. Alun 10:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding our discussions in different articles.

Epf, as we can see (You, Alun and me)we are contributing in different articles at the same time. It seems obvious that we have common interests. On the other hand it seems obvious that we also have different positions. Sometimes the debate gets a bit heated up, but I guess that that happens in Wiki. But we can also make an effort and try to go ahead in a reasonable way. In relation to Syke´s and Oppenheimer´s works, Alun and I have agreed to buy and read the books well, before we continue this debate, that obviously affects a few articles. I understand also that it is not peanuts. We are actually speaking of a theory that is coming up and that is claiming something that would have a great effect in many fields and that is very different from what it was previously thought. I think that we all agree that these two population geneticicts are highly regarded. So, instead of engaging in senseless revert wars we may agree to work together and share our readings of the books, before we go back to the articles. What do you think? Veritas et Severitas 18:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I do not take much stock in either of Sykes or Oppenheimers (both making ridiculous and hasty "conclusions" in many researchers opinions) works but I will look into the key points from both. We are also speaking of a theories based on evidence that does not clearly acknowledge any clear cut conclusions relating to their opinions. The evidence interpreted by these authors actually can be seen to contradict the theories held by either of them. Oppenhemier and Sykes are held with soem regard in the academic world, but no-where near as much as other researchers and they are basing much of their opinions from studies by other researchers which in many cases disagree with their perspectives on the studied populations. I agree we need to co-operate on related articles, but your opinions and theories drawn up from these population genetic findings (that are nothing new btw) do not follow those whatsoever which are made from such studies (themselves acknoledging how no such fully-drawn conclusions can be made). Ciao, Epf 07:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I do not take much stock in either of Sykes or Oppenheimers
It doesn't matter what you think of these analyses. This is an encyclpoaedia, not the world according to Epf, these represent authoritative and reliable sources. They are eminently citable and their data are sound. Their interpretation of the data may need to be scrutinised, but you need to find a study that criticises the analysis in order to make this point on in the article. Your opinion counts for very little this is an encyclopaedia, we should try to keep out own opinions out of the articles and only use verifiable material. Alun

09:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Alun, and I think that you can also understand that Epf. In any case, as said, let us wait and read the books ourselves and then we can come back here. Veritas et Severitas 16:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Actually, my opinion as well that of most other contributing user to these articles, does matter and it helps bring a neutral and balanced POV. For someone who consistently enjoys re-stating Wikipedia rhetoric and policies, I'd think you would realize this. These sources are hardly "authoritative" and "reliable" sources when you look at the details of the primary studies they are drawing upon. The genetic studies these books make their opinons from are already used in many articles and in these works are only being interpreted from the strange POV of these authors. Most of the researchers of the studies which are cited in these works do not (and they emphasize such) make any ridiculous or full-blown conclusions, and this is in contrast to such being made by Oppenheimer and Sykes. You must distinguish between primary and secondary sources here Alun. These books are only the perspective (incorrect to me in many ways) from one or two individuals on data which may or may not support such. I can easily find the find the studies they themselves used which clearly rebuff making any such "conclusions", including theirs, on the subject matter due to the early state of population genetics science (and limited sections of DNA currently able to be tested) and the so-far limited amount of studies in general. Epf 05:56, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancestry section of the Spanish people article

Epf, what do you think of this version? Veritas considers it is "Afrocentric", I dont know why... All statements can be backed up with proper sources.

According to archeological and genetic studies, the genetic landscape of Europe has been shaped by two major influences from the Levant: One occuring during the upper Paleolithic period, when modern humans entered the continent around 40 000 years ago, and the second occurring around 10 000 years ago during the Neolithic expansion of agriculturalists.

The Iberian peninsula, is considered to be among the regions with less Neolithic impact due to its geographic position, consistent with the demic diffusion model of Neolithic expansion from the Balkans into Western Europe. This explains the high frequency of Paleolithic genetic markers and more specifically Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b, which, according to one recent study is present in around 60% of the Spanish males. The frequency of R1b reaches highs of 90% in the Basque region which straddles Northern Spain and Southern France and lows of 40% in Malaga province, although in most of peninsular Spain the frequency of R1b surpasses the 50% mark. Classical markers, Y-chromosome variation and Mtdna studies show that the strong Paleolithic element is the most salient feature of the Iberian gene pool.

The Paleolithic component, however, seems to be much stronger in Basques than in other Iberian populations. Alonso and Armour showed that the Basques diverged from other European populations by retaining less diversity and having a higher proportion of ancestral (paleolithic) autosomal alleles. Furthermore, the presence in high frequencies, of a number of rare haplotypes, both in Mtdna and Y-chromosome analysis, suggests that the action of genetic drift may have further accentuated their distinctiveness. For these reasons, genetic studies of Western European populations have tended to concentrate on the Basques, to the detriment of other Iberian populations.

A number of other studies have also examined the extent of African gene flow in Iberian populations. This region has historically had close relationships with North Africa due to its geographic proximity and particularly due to the nearly 8 centuries of Islamic rule in Iberia. Genetic results are, to a degree contradictory. Although classical markers have failed to detect this influence, around 9% of Y-chromosomes and up to 18% of Mtdna have been estimated to be of this origin. Moreover, unlike the rest of Europe, the presence of genetic markers of African origin, Mtdna U6 and Y-chromosome E3b point to recent historical admixture as opposed to the result of more ancient Neolithic population movements. The presence of E-M81, a subclade of Haplogroup E3b, is perhaps the most irrefutable evidence of the genetic impact of the Islamic period in Iberia. This clade, which is the most common in North Africa, has the lowest variance and a compact network, indicating either its relatively recent origin followed by expansion or its recent expansion after a bottleneck. In Europe, this clade is restricted to Iberia and some peripheral Mediterranean regions such as Sicily and Malta. The absence of microsatellite variation suggests a very recent arrival from North Africa, consistent with historical evidence. Nevertheless, historical North African admixture in Iberian populations should not be exaggerated and it is only relevant insofar it represents a significant portion of the non-paleolithic gene pool.

This cannot be said for the two million Canarian Spaniards, who have strong Guanche admixture (the original inhabitants of the Canaries) and whose gene pool can be considered to be half way between their North African and Iberian putative parents. Anectodally, sub-saharan influence in the Iberian peninsula (with a strong peak in Southern Portugal) seems to be higher than in the rest of Europe, as can be seen by the high frequency of Mtdna Haplogroup L. This can be explained by the slave trade which started in Muslim times growing to its peak in the 16th century.

This version looks decent to me in some respects, but I particularly find fault with the claim that the sub-clade E-M81 has some presence in Sicily, which even if so, should be noted as being very minimal (as in Spain). I disagree with tthis statement: "is considered to be among the regions with less Neolithic impact due to its geographic position" because Spain actually has a significant Neolithic component of its population (compared to the Basque region or parts of the British Isles), even if going by merely MtDNA and Y-chrom. lineages. There also seems to be lack of discussion involving the Neolithic contribution to Spain's population (and its association with the Neolithic Iberians, mostly thought to have come from the East Mediterranean). I can also see how a user would claim this version has an "African tinge" to it in that the section about North African contribution is quite large compared to the rest. I think the difference between native North African and sub-sharan African markers needs to be noted here, since sub-sharan Africans have very little-no presence in sampled populatons in Iberia, Sicily or anywhere else in Europe proper for that matter. I think the current version looks fine to me, but if users want this to be included, I have no issues with it, just as long as it is properly referenced and that it is emphasized that these tests are in the early stages of development and that much more is neeed to udnerstand the origins of Spanish and other peoples. Epf 07:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Epf. Thanks for your feedback.

Regarding the neolithic impact, I take it we both mean by this word the peoples which came into Europe across the Bosphorous and expanded from the Balkans in what is known as the Demic diffusion 10 000 years ago. If you look at the maps of haplogroup E and J on this article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181965 it is clear that the neolithic expansion had little or no effect on Spain. Look at Figure 1A: It is evident that all clades of this haplogroup are of North African and not Balkan origin. E-M81 is naturally North African but (in Spain) so are E-M78 and E-M35. The former 2 are present in the Eastern half of Europe (including Italy) with their epicenter in the Balkans. However the diffusion of these haplogroups does not seem to have reached Iberia where they seem to have arrived across the straights of Gibraltar (as opposed to from France).

As for Haplogroup J, I have already discussed this issue with Veritas on the talk page of the article. The region where this haplogroup is most common is in Cadiz province (18%) (South West) and generally in the South West Quadrant of the peninsula. This also implies an origin other than Neolithic, (Phoenician or North African/Tartessian?) The Mediterranean Coast and the North East (where the Iberians lived primarily) has relatively low levels of E and J).http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/EJHG_2004_v12_p855.pdf In my opinion, Iberians were (as is generally the case) very reduced in number conquering and ruling largely native Paleolithic populations. The same can be said for the Celts. Studies have shown that in the UK for example, Celtic invasions were more a cultural transfer than a physical movement of populations.

As for E-M81, I wouldnt say that it has very little presence. It is strikingly common compared to the rest of Europe. In Malaga province, for example, 11.5% of male lineages belong to this subclade, which is present throughout the peninsula.

I would not like to impose my version, I am simply getting really interested in this subject which as you say is a new science and much is left to be understood.

Perhaps you are right that the sentence on Subsaharan influence should be scrapped. --Burgas00 12:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

I had another look at what i wrote on the English people talk page and I'm sorry for it. I was not intending to cause offence, but on reflection I can see that I crossed the threshhold between disagreement and name calling. Sorry about that. I've had a bit of a change of heart with the English people page. I had not intended the Contributions to section to be about ethnic groups as such, this is why ethnic groups are not mentioned there, but on relfection it seems to me that this section is in effect a duplicate of the Regions with significant populations in section. So I don't see the point in it. As for whether there is an American ethnicity, I think it's not relevant to the English people article. Alun 07:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amazed

I am amazed by your insistence that you are genotypicaly and phenotypically English. You claim to be of Scots and English and Italian descent. By your own criteria you cannot be genotypically English, you must have Italian genes and Scots genes. It must also be true that your psycho-behavioural (whatever that means) characteristics must be partly Italian as well. Let's face it you are living proof that your racial ideas are bunk. You claim to be genetically English, but you are clearly no such thing. It seems to be common for people from North America to have ancestors from several different nationalities, but this is unusual in England, outside of British ancestry. I've also done some checking into Carleton Coons, and he's just a racist biggot who seems to have zero academic credibility.[11] Just some racist that supported segregation. If he'd had his way your mum and dad wouldn't have been allowed to marry. Here's a rather obnoxious quote from him

Genes that form part of a cell nucleus possess an internal equilibrium as a group, just as do the members of social institutions. Genes in a population are in equilibrium if the population is living a healthy life as a corporate entity. Racial intermixture can upset the genetic as well as the social equilibrium of a group, and so, newly introduced genes tend to disappear or be reduced to a minimum percentage unless they possess a selective advantage over their local counterparts

So genes form an internal equilibrium? Form a social equilibrium? What nonsense. If such a thing is true, then it is true only in the sense that mutation or chromosomal translocation/Nondisjunction can cause hereditary illness or mental handicap. I was a mental handicap nurse for five years before I went to study genetics. When a person has gross genetic defects they are physically and mentally handicapped, often they are a pleasure to nurse, it is a period of my life I remember with great affection. The idea that Homo sapiens compromises five different races or sub species is a myth. Indeed the biological species concept emphasises that the only important barrier is the reproductive one, i.e. the species one, all else below the species level always allows gene transfer. Indeed any geneticist worth his salt understands that the truth is the opposite. The greater variability in a gene pool then the greater the chances of avoiding inbreeding and producing viable offspring. In any population of organisms, the more inbreeding the worse, the more interbreeding with other populations the better. One can clearly see it in small close knit communities where rare genetic disorders are common. Why is this? Because of the simple reason that the smaller the gene pool, then the more likely it is that lethal recessive genes will segregate into the same organism. Coons ideas make no evolutionary or genetic sense. They appear to be based on facile ideas derived from a bygone age when natural selection was deliberately distorted in order to promote the ideas of racial purity and dominance. Your are clearly an intelligent and articulate person, I urge you to forget this fantacy and concentrate on real science. Alun 00:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

PS I am profoundly pissed, so excuse my poor spelling and punctuation. Hope it's legible. Alun 00:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maltese people

Hi, could you please fix the infobox on this page - more specifically, the width of both columns since it's all screwed up. Thanks a lot. Marcus1234 16:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remark.

Be sure to leave notes to the right people, we wouldn't want ininvolved people to get offended by your false remarks. Like this one. Thank you. Rex 13:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok then....... Epf 09:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Good to hear from you. I quite agree, editing can be stressful, especially when a really agressive contributor makes nasty personal attacks like Eoganan did. I'm glad there is no bad feeling between us, I feel the same as you, I've always enjoyed our discussions even if we disagree. I was also misguided in thinking that the anonymous user may have been you. I had thought it was someone who knew a lot about wikipedia, and as you say you had some similar interests to Eoganan, and it was only by chance that I noticed that an IP editing last August was associated with Eoganan and was very similar to the one being used by the offensive anonymous editor. I was so relieved that it wasn't you, but I should have known, there was such a big difference between your calm considered approach and the hysteria of Eoganan. I've just been reading Stephen Oppenheimer's book, about the origins of the British and I think you would enjoy it. Indeed he supports many of your ideas. Basically he thinks that eastern Great Britain has a long association with Scandinavia that predates the Roman occupation, hence the genetic similarity between the east of England and other North Sea peoples, he also indicates that Germanic languages may be as old in eastern England as Celtic ones are in Wales (even to the neolithic). He draws a distinction between Angles and Saxons, claiming Saxons are associated with Belgae and are Germanic, and Angles are associated with Norway/Denmark, and thinks that the English north/south divide (still evident today) is a result of much older divisions than the Danelaw, though he thinks that this is the basic dividing line between Angles and Saxons. He also seems to think that Pictish might have been a Norse type Germanic language similar to Scandinavian language of Shetland and Orkney, and that the basic division on Great Britain is east west. It's an interesting book, though he does not support a mass Anglo-Saxon migration, he does a good job at explaining why there may be social, cultural, linguistic and genetic differences between east and west Britons. Anyway, all the best, hope you had an excellent Christmas and New Year. Cheers. Alun 14:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Archiving

Hi Epf. You can check out Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page. Basically you can make a sub-page by creating a page called [[User talk:Epf/archive1]] (you can make lots of subpages if you want, I have some I use for experimenting with articles and layouts and especially templates, which I find a bit tricky and develop empirically). Once you have created this page you can copy and paste your discussion page info there and save it. Then you can just delete all of the text from the main talk page. You will want to put a link to the archive on your main talk page, and you can do this by just piping it like this [[User talk:Epf/archive1|Archive 01]]. Hope this is of some help. I'm currently trying to make an article about prehistoric settlement of the British Isles up to 1066. It can cover all points of view regarding the origin of various British Isles populations and hopefully will complement the Immigration to the United Kingdom articles. I also think that this will allow the origins of actual people to be removed from the ethnic group articles, these articles can then concentrate on other aspects of ethnicity and we can link to the settlement article. I've not got any concrete plan yet, but I have a rough idea in my head. At the moment the article is called Population genetics of the British Isles, but I think the scope of this article is too limited. I'm trying to get a consensus to rename the article. I'm also hoping to include pre-modern human habitation. Well I'll see how it goes, I tend to work slowly and methodically as I have very little opportunity for extended sessions on Wikipedia, I have three boys, the oldest of which is now five, so the wife doesn't appreciate me locking myself away for extended periods of time. All the best. Alun 06:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orkney and Shetland

EPF, why are changing Orkney and Shetland Islanders from a British people to a Scottish people? What is your justification for this? I reverted your change a few months back and pointed out to you that to do this is kin to stating that the Cornish are an English ethnic group. Are you going to tell me that "most Orkney Islanders regard themselves as Scottish before British"? Would you also tell me that "most Cornish people regard themselves as British before English"? Or "Cornish before English"? English, Welsh, Scottish, Cornish, Shetland, Orkney, they are all British ethnic groups, and there are others within them too. I would like to know why you are persisting in this. Enzedbrit 07:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Form my understanding, and I admit it's far from complete, Orcadians and Shetlanders certainly do not identify as Scottish, but neither do they identify as British. I have the understanding that they clearly see themselves with a Norse heritage, especially Shetlanders seem to identify strongly with Norwegians.[12][13] Just an observation, I'm not looking to pick a fight. By the way Shetlanders and Orcadians also seem to have a genetic affinity with Norwegians as well.[14] Alun 18:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Alun! You didn't go! Mae hi'n well i mi! You're right in that the genetic makeup of these peoples has been shown to have more Norse heritage than Briton, but the people remain part of the United Kingdom and are British. They are British peoples by default whether or not they subjectify themselves as such. Enzedbrit 04:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish people

I wrote the "anti-ethnic, anti-Portuguese non-sense POV" that you deleted without any discussion. For your information I am Portuguese, and am proud of my culture, language and heritage. In no way would I accept an imposition of Castillian culture or language on my country. Still what I wrote is true and supported by the mainstream historical community. user:LSLM, who I suspect is from Spain had already deleted that passage which now was reinstated by someone else (not me). I refer you to his talk page for the arguments i had with him.

I notice you are Scottish so it may be difficult for you to understand this matter. Just as Scottish and English peoples can be said to be "British" so can the Portuguese and Spanish be said to be "Iberian". Iberia in Greek is exactly the same as Hispania in Latin or even originally Spain in English. If a modern state today uses that name, the Portuguese should be excluded from discussions about that state or nationality. However if you discuss "Spanish people" and even talk about some south-americans being "Spanish" we are speaking about ethnic, cultural identification. In that sense Portuguese people are as Spanish as any other, and you have no right of denying us portuguese of this identity and ascribing everything spanish to our neighbours, just because they use that name officially! It is as if you deny americanness to canadians and latin americans just because one country usurped that name. Many Portuguese consider themselves to be Spanish even when rejecting the Castillian supremacy that exists within the state with that name.

If people in your country find it strange that portuguese can feel "spanish" today thats only because "spanish" for you means "castillian". The fact is that the word, the culture, the way of life and the identity of being spanish are much older that the state of spain, created only in 1580 (precisely at the time of the (ephemerous) union of the "Kingdom of Aragon and Castille" with the Kingdom of Portugal"). Why else do people speak of "Spanish Reconquista" (not Iberian Reconquista), "Roman Spain" (not Roman Iberia), "Muslim Spain" (not Muslim Iberia), the "Phoenicians in Spain", the "Germanic invasions of Spain", "Visigothic Spain", "Spain of the Feudal Kingdoms", "Neolithic Spain", "Pre-Historic Spain", "Celtic Spain". The Portuguese and their forebears were as as much a part of all this historical developments as any other so called "Spanish people". By excluding us from Spanishness you rob us from our history and identity.

Notice that my discussion on this point was from a moderate point of view and it was written in the "Related peoples" area. I accept that a majority of people including perhaps a majority of portuguese, dont see themselves as a spanish people. They do however see themselves as "iberian" and this means precisely the same! The old term was only abandoned for political convenince and to avoid political implications of cultural terms. The culture, ethnic make-up, language etc of the Portuguese make them as much one of the group of "Spanish peoples" (Castillians, Andalucians, Galicians, Catalans, Basques) as any other. Their independence means squat because this is about the identity and cultural, ethnic, linguistic factors and not politics. Swiss people speak dialects of German more distant to northern German than Portuguese is to many other Spanish languages and they can be said to be German (see German people).

Still the majority of scholars, linguists, historians or anthropologists will, I assure you, include the Portuguese in the Spanish group. If they wish to avoid political sensitivities they use the term "iberian" but that is a term used only since recently, and usually interchangeably with "spanish".

Galician people speak a language and have a culture almost equal to Portuguese, much less related to Castillian culture and language and they are Spanish. Catalans are not more related to the Castillians than the Portuguese! Yet all these people are "Spanish". Point is either there is no Spanish people, only Catalans, Castilians and Galicians, or the Portuguese must be mentioned in the article about it. Maybe the Portuguese are not Spanish in some ways, but in others they are and it only benefits people who read the article to understand this.

If Sweden renamed itself "Scandinavia" tomorrow would that rob Norwegian people of their Scandinavian identity? If Scotland declared independence and England retained the name of "Great Britain", that wouldnt make you any less British. The Portuguese people were a Spanish people for centuries from the time of the Romans to 1580. To deny them their Spanishness is to deny them the very essence of their identity and history. We are not Castillians. We chose not to be ruled from Madrid by people speaking a foreign tongue. We rejected being a part of "Spain". But that cannot take from us our Spanishness. If we choose to affirm it, and very many do.

I agree that the article shouldnt say that Portuguese are Spanish. But it should definitely mention what I wrote previously in the related peoples section. 84.90.18.136 02:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problems with Image:Roma Montella.jpg

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[edit] Copyright problems with Image:IMG 4268.jpg

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[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for comment/LSLM

You may wanna comment on this...Lukas19 23:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Wanna...wanna...learn to spell.....Alun 23:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oh dear

  • Descent and resultant traits are obviously an integral part of ethnic identification despite the disagreements of users like Alun, LSLM and Globe who are clearly a vocal minority in these matters. Honestly, I sometimes wonder how some people are raised. Anyways, there clearly is an anti-ethnic, assimilatoinist agenda with some of these users often associated with extreme-leftist political viewpoints.
Thought you were a decent chap untill I read this. I guess now I understand exactly what your political and social opinions are. So you're just like Lukas19 and Eoganan? You have no right to comment on how I was brought up, you know nothing about it. I am not "anti-ethnic", I am anti-racist. And I am not ashamed of this. I suggest you take a long hard look at European history and ask yourself who you might have been fighting for during the war, I know exactly where I would have been, both during the Spanish Civil War and during the Second World War. Alun 06:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  • To be honest, I really don't care whether you think I'm a "decent" chap or not Alun, but I know I am a respectable person and perhaps I should clarify matters here. I am by no means "just like Lukas19 and Eoganan", whatever is meant by that statement and you should take note that I stated how some of these users were raised, not you specifically. I do not know for sure whether you are against ethnic diversity and maintenance of ethnic identities beyond political/national boundaries or not (including the role of descent and family upbringing in such), but I know that you are anti-racist, as I myself am. I would assume you are however also to be anti-"race" in general and in turn also unfortunately anti-diversity in human genetic and cultural variation. I have "taken a long hard look" at European history for many years now as it has been a passion and area of focus/study of mine just as much as European anthropology has been (as they are both related areas). I in fact also know exactly what side you would have been on during the Second World War, and that is on the same side that pointed a nuclear arsenal against the Western world during the nearly 50 years after the conflict. You are a communist, an anarchist and self-admit to being a far left-wing extremist (even though I disagree with such opinons, that is your choice and that is OK). I am however not a far-right extremist, see myself as a political moderate and would have fought on the same side as my grandfather did during the Second World War (i.e. the Allies). Unlike you however, during the Cold War I would have supported the side of Western European culture and society, capitalism, democracy and freedom. Perhaps it is you who needs to re-evaluate your socio-political allegiances, lol (take it easy, only kidding here). Anyways Alun, it is still good to see you are considering my arguments and facts, and I hope all is well on Wikipedia (don't let anonymous vandals and ignorant users stop you from pursuing neutral POV and factual accuracy !) and in life in general. Ciao, Epf 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
    • If you think that anarchists support Communists, then you do not know your European history as well as you claim. To an anarchist, who believes in freedon above all else, the USSR is indistinguishable from fascist states. The communists violently suppressed the anarchist revolution in the Spanish civil war, and were largely responsible for the victory of fascism there. I would never fight for communism, I would never fight for fascism, I would never fight for a coercive state, I would fight for freedom. Please see Anarchism_in_Spain#Counter-revolution. Alun 07:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
    • As for your claim that I am "anti-diversity", whatever that's supposed to mean. Well I support the American Association of Physical Anthropology statement on "Biological race", especially "Humanity cannot be classified into discrete geographic categories with absolute boundaries. Furthermore, the complexities of human history make it difficult to determine the position of certain groups in classifications. Multiplying subcategories cannot correct the inadequacies of these classifications." I am all in favour of diversity, what decreases diversity are Imperialism (no Liberal ever conducted a genocide, where are those native Tazmanians, what happened to Native Americans?) and Globalisation, why is there a Macdonalds in every town I have ever lived in since 1991? (Even in Llantrisant now). There are Starbucks everywhere. This sort of cultural creep is what destroys diversity, and it's certainly not down to people who think that power should be vested in local regions, where diversity would be preserved, rather than in faceless multinationals, where all societies must eat the same food, drink the same drinks and talk the same language. Alun 12:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you entirely. I know my political views must appear extreme, but they don't seem extreme to me (obviously). I have come to my position from years of thinking about these things, and years of disapointment, with Thatcher, Major and now Blair. I have come from the position of someone who, 25 years ago was an avid supported of the Liberal Democrats in British politics and would have considered themselves neither left or right, but I have seem too much injustice to feel that the status quo is either just or fair, but that's another story as they say. Today I think I would support the Green part or Plaid Cymru, but I don't vote in British elections. In Finland I vote Green, but cannot vote for the President or the Parliament. I agree with you, politics is probably not a very constructive subject to be arguing about. I didn't mean to imply that you were far right wing fascist, and if I did then I am sorry for that and any offence it may have caused. I was mostly offended by what I perceived as an attack on my upringing by you than anything else, but again maybe it was more perceived by me than real, such are the vaguaries of communication without personal contact. I know you are a decent chap, and I respect your views. You have enlightened me on a number of issues due to your knowledge and willingness to comunicate your expertise, and I'm grateful to you for that. I wonder what you think of the new look Briton article? Someone has been making a big effort to turn it into an ethnic group style article, and an Irishman as well as far as I can see. Personally I think this is a reasonable proposition, but I know you have never been keen on tha idea that British people can be considered an ethnic group. One of the many areas that we disagree upon. Cheers. Alun 06:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Genetics of British settlement

Hi again. I just wanted to point out to you that the haplogroup R1xR1a1 is part of R1b, if one subtracts the frequency of AMH+1 (a haplotype associated with R1b) from R1b the resultant haplotype is calles R1xR1a1. Or if you like, add R1xR1a1 to AMH+1 to get the frequency of R1b for these places, see how in Ireland the frequency of R1b approaches 90% when AMH and R1xR1a1 are added together, just as one would expect. They use the Atlantic Modal Haplotype because it allows them to break their data down into more discrete haplotypes. What really are interesting about this paper are the supplemental data here, which seem to indicate very high levels of admixture between "indigenous" populations and Norway and North Germany/Denmark. For example they estimate a 0.3 North German/Danish admixture in Rush. This seems exceedingly high to me. I would not have noticed this, except that it is pointed out in Stephen Oppenheimer's book that this implies that the "Anglo-Saxon invasion" had deeper and wider effects than anyone seriously believes. I wonder what these results mean? Oppenheimer concludes that it implies that this paper overestimates the proportoíon of "Germanic" Y chromosomes in the British Isels, or if you prefer certain Y chromosomes are being counted as "Germanic" when they are not "Germanic", because no one really believes that there was a 30% North German/Danish admixture with Irish people in Dublin do they? What do you make of it? Alun 09:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


PS. I have had a go at making a map of European SNP diversity and genetic clustering based on Seldin's 2006 paper. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Seldin's data are well presented for the purpose of biomedical study, but are far from well presented for the purposes of studying ancient European population movements. For example they display diversity for several large geographical groups, what they call Western Europe, Central Europe and Eastern Europe, but also for some specific states, Sweden, Finland, Italy and Spain. So we have a mix of large geographical regions, and specific localised populations. Anyway I have tried to present them on a map of Europe. I'm currently working on making similar maps for Bauchet's 2007 paper, which uses more SNPs, but far fewer samples. Bauchet's paper uses less than 300 samples, so it's a bit of a small sample. Still they use over 9,000 SNPs, which is quite impressive. Again Bauchet's paper is moastly interested in biomedical research, so their data are not really analysed in a way that would help elucidate the relationships between various populations. For example it seems to me that the best way to infer relatedness between populations is to identify the SNPs that specific populations hold in common, rather than try to identify SNPs that cluster. What I mean is this, can we identify a group of SNPs that are held in common between certain eastern parts of Great Britain that are not held in common with the western parts of Great Britain, which of these are also held in common with other North Sea Germanic speaking populations? This sort of approach would go a long way to answering questions about the level of shared ancestry between English people and speakers of other Germanic languages, the same sort of thing could be done for western Britain and Ireland and Iberia, likewise what SNPs are shared by British people but not by non British people? These questions are relevant and I believe it is only a matter of time before some population geneticists who are interested in British population history start to ask these questions. I suppose the problem is partly that studying Y chromosomes is relatively cheap compared to studying autosomal genes. The Affymetrix chips used in the Bauchet paper are extremely expensive, I know because we have used them in our lab. There's little money in population research relative to biomedical research, where drugs companies can make huge sums of money for good specific drugs. Anyway I digress. Have a look at my sandbox, I'd appreciate your comments. It's nice to have you back by the way:) Alun 12:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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