User talk:Eog1916

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Contents 1 License tagging for Image:Picturea 008.jpg 2 Your edit to English-medium college. 3 St. Columb's College 4 St. Columb's College 5 Gaelic mythology 6 English-medium article 7 Speedy deletion of 'Cultural assimilation' 8 Re-listing 9 India and Bharat 10 Irish (Gaelic) 11 Irish Republicanism 12 Help me

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[edit] Your edit to English-medium college.

Your recent edit to English-medium college. (diff) was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to recognize and repair vandalism to Wikipedia articles. If the bot reverted a legitimate edit, please accept my humble creator's apologies – if you bring it to the attention of the bot's owner, we may be able to improve its behavior. Click here for frequently asked questions about the bot and this warning. // AntiVandalBot 16:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] St. Columb's College

I've never ever heard of St. Columb's being referred to as an English-medium college before and I don't really understand why it should be called that. Could you explain to me what exactly such an institution is and why you believe St. Columb's ought to be classified as one? Thanks. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 13:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I find your labelling odd more than upsetting or anything like that. I have looked at your article but I still fail to see why St. Columb's should be considered as an 'English-medium school'. First of all; the article is rather sketchy in defining what exactly such an institution is. Secondly; as far as I'm aware, the college was not established by British Commissioners of National Education (who seem to have been the organisation building such schools), but, rather, by the Irish Catholic Church. Also; Gaelic is taught as a subject in the school and I would assume that it always has been, in contrast to the 'English-medium school' idea of teaching only in the English language. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 14:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, St. Columb's was built in 1879, wheras your article claims that English-medium schools were built in Ulster up until 1870. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 17:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

St. Columb's is indeed an English-medium school in the simple sense that English is the primary language of communication within the school, but that is different from implying that it is an English-medium school in the British institutional sense with which your article deals. At the time the college was established, English was already the primary language of use in Ireland. Would you refer to a recently-established school in, say, Cork as an English-medium school in the institutional sense deriving from Britain's colonial expansion simply because English was the primary language used in the school? It would certainly be a de facto English-medium school by convenience, but that is not the same as the concept of the school being an English-medium establishment by principle that your article deals with. St. Columb's was not founded by the British for the purpose of aiding the spread of their English language in Ireland - it was set up by the Irish Catholic Church, and English just so happened to be the language used for teaching as it was the language used by the majority of Irish people in their day-to-day lives at the time. Besides, the prohibition on Irish being used in schools ended in 1871 - 8 years before the founding of St. Columb's. Thus, the matter of in which language to teach was within the discretion of those running the school - the Church. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 02:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] St. Columb's College

20:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)~eog1916

I'm glad that you now admit that St.Columb's is an English-medium school, but I still fail to understand what you mean by " that is different from implying that it is an English-medium school in the British institutional sense with which your article deals." Perhaps you could expand on this further?

You then say "At the time the college was established, English was already the primary language of use in Ireland". Perhaps if this were true ther might have been an excuse to establish a seminary for the education of students for the priesthood through English but the facts would suggest otherwise.

It was in a remote country area, at Clady on the banks of the Finn in Urney parish, towards the end of the eighteenth century that Dr. Philip McDavitte, Bishop from 1761 to 1797, set up such a school. (ref: http://www.stcolumbs.com/Portal.aspx?tabindex=9&tabid=3692)

In the mid 18th century around two-thirds of the population still used Irish as their everyday language. However, by the close of that century, this number had declined to just over half. (2.4 million out of 4.75 million). 800,000 of these were monoglots.

By the time the British Government undertook the first language census in 1851, the number of Irish speakers had dramatically reduced to just over 1.5 million, or 23.3% of the population. A much higher percentage still was to be found in Donegal and Derry. It should be noted that the census was held after the terrible famine that swept Ireland, in which 1.5 million people died of starvation and another million were forced to emigrate.

You pose the question "Would you refer to a recently-established school in, say, Cork as an English-medium school in the institutional sense deriving from Britain's colonial expansion simply because English was the primary language used in the school?" What I am attempting to say is that English was used by the establishment in Ireland ( both Church and State) as a deliberate means of assimilation or as Douglas Hyde termed it Anglisization. ( See The Necessity for De-Anglicising Ireland http://www.gaeilge.org/deanglicising.html) In his article in the European Journal of Education Prof. Ó Buachalla states " During the first four decades of their existance, there is no mention of the irish language in the programme of regulations of the Commissioners of National Education; furthermore no provision whatsoever was made in 1831 when the original scheme was drawn up for education of those children who spoke Irish only. According to the official opinion of later Commissioners, expressed in a formal reply to the Chief Secretary in 1884, " the anxiety of the promoters of the National Scheme was to encourage the cultivation of the English language..." ( Ref: European Journal of Education,Vol19,1,1984. 'Education Policy and the Role of the Irish Language from 1831 to 1981.' URL http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0141-8211%281984%2919%3A1%3C75%3AEPATRO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-K&size=LARGE)

That this type of system of education should continue to the present day is perhaps due to the overall effectiveness of the original colonial policy and I would accept that it may not be done in a deliberative fashion but really its effects are esentially the same.

You initiated this debate with the sentence "I've never ever heard of St. Columb's being referred to as an English-medium college before and I don't really understand why it should be called that." I would suggest that the normalization of the use of English has its effects on you too!

You go on to write "It would certainly be a de facto English-medium school by convenience, but that is not the same as the concept of the school being an English-medium establishment by principle that your article deals with." Again one should pose the question why it is seen to be more 'convenient'?

You write "St. Columb's was not founded by the British for the purpose of aiding the spread of their English language in Ireland.."

You forget ar maybe don't appreciate that the British Government set up Maynooth College so that Catholic priests would be taught through English and when the National Schools were founded that only English was allowed between the four walls.

You further write "it was set up by the Irish Catholic Church, and English just so happened to be the language used for teaching as it was the language used by the majority of Irish people in their day-to-day lives at the time." The census of population (in 1851) of course does not back up your argument!

You write "Besides, the prohibition on Irish being used in schools ended in 1871 - 8 years before the founding of St. Columb's."

The Diocese establish the original seminary in 1761. I don't know what 'prohibition of Irish' you are refering to in this instance.

Finally you end thus "Thus, the matter of in which language to teach was within the discretion of those running the school - the Church. "

I totally agree, the RC Church willingly adopted the same policy regarding language as did the English Government and its agents in Ireland!

Slán go fóill Éamonn

St. Columb's is an English-medium school in the sense that the English language is the primary medium of education used. However, I would argue that that is as far as referring to it as an 'English-medium school' can go. My reasoning is that your article deals with English-medium schools as a form of anti-Gaelic, political or cultural tool employed by the British in Ireland during their past colonial era. It doesn't relate simply to the former, nor does it provide any substantial distinction. If your article also dealt with English-medium schools in their simplest, English-being-the-language-in-use form and you clarified this with distinction in relation to schools that were not established for the aforementioned purpose, I don't think I'd see a problem with referring to St. Columb's as such. Currently, your use of the loaded term in the St. Columb's article could very easily cause one to think that the continued use of English in the school is, and always has been, an attempt to stamp out the Gaelic language.

You refer to a school being set up at Clady in the late 1700s as if the modern-day St. Columb's is a direct continuation of that establishent. From the link you provide, you'll notice that its ultimate descendant seminary closed in the aftermath of the Famine. As has been mentioned, St. Columb's was established after English became Ireland's primary language, even though its founding may have been inspired by earlier English-speaking seminaries in the then mainly Irish-speaking area, but I don't feel that this is wholly relevant to this debate. You may argue that the continued use of English by religious and state institution was/is a continuation of this policy but, with Irish already 'stamped out' as the major language, I feel that may be stretching the application of the label somewhat. You seem to be well acquainted with the matter but I notice from viewing the page's history that there are others who also dispute your use of the term in relation to St. Columb's. Maybe I will try to initiate some form of debate on the St. Columb's College talk-page.

Although I would tend to agree with the following:

That this type of system of education should continue to the present day is perhaps due to the overall effectiveness of the original colonial policy and I would accept that it may not be done in a deliberative fashion but really its effects are esentially the same.

and I would concur that the continued use of English as a primary language in Ireland only contributes to the country's complete Anglicisation and serves to reinforce that of the process which has already occurred, I feel that the important distinction lies in the fact that the policy with which your article deals was a deliberate one (as you recognise) aimed at ridding Ireland of Irish while many, if not most, modern-day English-medium schools in Ireland make provision for the teaching of Irish while the State itself pledges protection for the language. They have no such intentions of ridding Ireland of Irish in contrast with the old English-medium system of the British.

I referred to the use of English being more convenient as it was the primary language of use in the city of Derry and Ireland at the time - that being 1879, and not 1851. Terming the college an 'English-medium' institution would nearly suggest that there is something uncommon in the fact that it functions mainly in the English language - as if teaching in English was not the Irish norm. If we are to be realistic, we must accept that there is nothing adnormal surrounding this in modern-day Ireland where English has become the primary language of use. I do admire your passion on the subject, but I feel that a lot of clarification is required. We can't simply refer to all schools which use English primarily under the ambiguous and politically-loaded (in the old sense) label of 'English-medium scool'. Being honest, the use of English in Ireland has been normalised. Of course, the history and development of this current state of affairs is noteworthy, but I don't think there is a real need to point out that St. Columb's is an English-medium school in an English-speaking country.

You conclude by confirming that the Catholic Church in Ireland also implemented the policy of Anglicisation. Perhaps you could expand on this in your article. If the Church employed such a policy officially in 1879, maybe I would agree that St. Columb's was set up as an English-medium school in the old sense to which your article relates.

In summary, I can see two distinct forms of English-medium school: the first being the type deliberately implemented by British colonialists and their agents in Ireland in order to stamp out the Irish language; and the second being that which is set-up for reasons of convenience in the English-speaking Ireland resulting from the former official policy and does not carry the intention of wiping out the Irish language. Unless you have something to prove otherwise, I am inclined to believe that St. Columb's fits into the second bracket. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 19:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Eog1916 16:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)eog1916

RE: "St. Columb's is an English-medium school ...... is, and always has been, an attempt to stamp out the Gaelic language."

EOG: I added the words 'English-medium' simply to describe the college, not to depricate it in any way. Why you should fing my use of the term 'English-medium' loaded perplexes me, as I am simply saying that in St. Columb's the English language is the primary medium of education used. This is I'm sure you would agree factually correct. The recently published Independent Strategic Review of Education, carried out by Professor Sir George Bain for DENI mentions English-medium and Irish-medium schools in Northern Ireland ( http://www.deni.gov.uk/index/8-admin_of_education_pg/101-strategic-review-of-education.htm). The Irish-British Interparty Body ( http://www.biipb.org/biipb/committee/commd/90302.htm )stated in its report that;

" Problems of the status of Irish-medium education at secondary level were more acute outside Belfast. In Londonderry and in the border counties, there were Irish-medium primary schools but little provision for secondary education. Pupils often had to revert to English-medium schools at secondary level and parents were proving reluctant to commit their children to Irish-medium education at primary level if there was little prospect of its continuity."

You will notice the use of the term 'English-medium'.

I think that the problem you may be more to do with your own background, which has probably not taken notice of the existance of an 'Irish Gaelic-medium' sector in Ireland or Scotland. You view 'English-medium' as 'normal' and therefore not needing any differentiation or explanation.

To be continued! Eog1916 16:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)eog1916

RE: " You refer to a school being set up at Clady in the late 1700s ...... I would accept that it may not be done in a deliberative fashion but really its effects are esentially the same."

EOG: I have no dispute with you over this paragraph!

RE:  " and I would concur that the continued use of English as a primary language in Ireland .....They have no such intentions of ridding Ireland of Irish in contrast with the old English-medium system of the British. "

EOG: The intentions of the Church and or State can be debated, I would just say that the process of Anglisitation has accelerated not diminished since the Free State was created. Ireland ( 26 counties) must be the only ostensibly independent state, that offers its native Gaelic speaking children, their own language as an L2 in the state school curriculum and examination system and their L2 language at only L2 level (This state of affairs does not pertain north of the border nor in Scotland or Wales.) The State has still to provide a 'Gaelic-Gaelic Dictionary' for Gaeltacht schools. I taught Science at Leaving and A level through Irish Gaelic without Gaelic Science textbooks. I see very little difference in past education policies and the present ones. The 'Murder Machine' is still going at full throttle.

RE: "I referred to the use of English being more convenient as it was the primary language of use in the city of Derry and Ireland at the time - that being 1879, and not 1851. Terming the college an 'English-medium' institution would nearly suggest that there is something uncommon in the fact that it functions mainly in the English language - as if teaching in English was not the Irish norm." EOG: My point was that not facility was afforded those who spoke Gaelic as their first language (L1), even when they accounted for the majority of the student population. Certainly it was more convenient for the authorities to impose English...they did not have to provide Gaelic-medium teacher training colleges, textbooks etc. Teaching in English became the norm because Gaelic-medium was not allocated funding by Church or State. RE: "If we are to be realistic, we must accept that there is nothing adnormal surrounding this in modern-day Ireland where English has become the primary language of use." EOG: I did not suggest that it was abnormal, just that it was a deliberate ( unjust) policy that drove the situation in this direction. RE:" I do admire your passion on the subject, but I feel that a lot of clarification is required. We can't simply refer to all schools which use English primarily under the ambiguous and politically-loaded (in the old sense) label of 'English-medium scool'." EOG: As I explained before, I have no desire to use loaded terminology or indeed give a onesided insight into this phenomenon. Rather do I wish English speakers ( in the main monoglots) to have an opportunity to learn and research this subject and eventually draw their own measured conclusions.

RE: "Being honest, the use of English in Ireland has been normalised. Of course, the history and development of this current state of affairs is noteworthy, but I don't think there is a real need to point out that St. Columb's is an English-medium school in an English-speaking country." EOG: To me ( by the way my mother was born in Fintown, Co Donegal and although her mother spoke Gaelic as her L1, she never carried the language further to her own children,) speaking Gaelic to my children and grandchild is the norm. They are all multilingual D.V.

Well can we agree to differ?

Indeed I am aware of the Gaelic-medium sector. My mother was taught in Irish and speaks the language fluently, while I know that there are such schools even in Derry. I edited your article in order to provide some clarification. As it stands, I don't think I would have a problem with you referring to St. Columb's as an English-medium college. In modern-day Ireland the use of English is the norm, whether you wish to recognise that or not. It would be unrealistic to deny the fact that English has become normalised, and I don't see how my background has any bearing on that. For example, it would be an extreme rarity to walk down a Dublin street a hear individuals conversing in Irish. I would almost describe such an occurence as an oddity under the current day's circumstances. Personally, I find the situation unfortunate that Irish should have been left to rot in its home-land. I also find it regrettable from a cultural perspective Irish society's general Anglophilia and that the English language continues to take centre-stage. However, those are opinions - not facts. Danny Invincible^Talk|Edits 00:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gaelic mythology

Hi Eog1916, I have redirected your recently created article Gaelic mythology to the article Irish mythology. If you are going to recreate the article you need to make it a unique article, rather than a copy of another. Thanks. « Keith ^{t/_e» 16:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)}

^{Eog1916 20:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)eog1916}

^{Dear Keith,}

^{My son went to study Computing in Coleraine!}

^{I understand that you have difficulty with my use of the term 'Gaelic' instead of 'Irish' in this matter....well let me explain.}

^{The people who spoke/speak the language which we term as 'Gaelic' ( Q Celtic) well predated the label 'Irish' and viewed themselves as belonging to a group of people or a society/nation which they termed 'the Gaels' ( Na Gaeil). They lived in a land which they termed Gaeldom ( An Ghaeltacht) which stretched from Caithness in the north of what we now call Scotland to Kerry in the south of what we now call Ireland.}

^{Their mythology was part of what we term Celtic Mythology and contains many elements common in P Celtic languages, Brythonic or Gallic and insular British mythology.}

^{It would therefore be better / more accurate to redirected Irish mythology to Gaelic mythology and not the other way around!}

^{Surely it is better that we rid our beloved Wikipedia of all perjorative or historically inaccurate terminology?}

^{Le deagh ghuí With good wishes Éamonn Ó Gribín}

^{Hi Éamonn, I don't really have a problem with the term 'Gaelic' (other than I can never seem to spell it right when typing). The problem with you version was that it was a carbon-copy of the Irish mythology. If you feel that the Irish mythology page doesn't do the subject justice I think that you should raise your, very valid concerns, on the article talk page.}

^{The/my problem with your solution is the 'incorrect' version still remained, which really doesn't help anyone. The best edits are achieved through consensus and are always factual. It is possible, if others feel the same way that the Irish mythology page can be moved to Gaelic mythology. Hope you understand, and keep at it! « Keith t/_e» 21:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)}

^{Eog1916 05:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)eog1916 Dear Keith,}

^{Thanks for the comments. The English version of Wikipedia is rather too ethnocentric for a World audience. I think that it is important that we refrain from using terminology that is politically or otherwise loaded. Many other language groups resort to using the English version as the template for their own versions and it is surely important that we divest ourselves of as mush of our anglophilic/phobic thoughts whilst composing articles! I spend most of my time on other language versions of Wikipedia ( mainly the gaelic version) and am not that well versed in the editorial end...please forgive me.}

^{Still think that there is a strong case for 'Gaelic Mythology' or even the more general term 'Celtic Mythology' and not 'Irish Mythology' just as there is a strong case for calling our native language in English, the 'Gaelic language' and not the 'Irish language, which is in my view perjorative and inaccurate.}

^{[edit] English-medium article}

^{Simply removing templates from an article does not make it any better!}

^{The first template deals with WP:Manual of Style, you should become familiar with how to write a Wikipeida article, this basically deals with headings and what is appropriate use of Wikipedia. For example there is never (in my opinion) a need to use an exclamation mark in a encyclopaedia - "The use of the term 'Irische language/toung' to describe the 'Gaelic language' of the people was presumably a deliberate insult!". I get the feeling that this article is more your interpretation the various sources rather than the facts of the issue of English medium education - "Many scholars have participated in lively (not to say heated) discussions of Phillipson’s claims". The article simply doesn't read like an encyclopaedic entry.}

^{The second template is in relation to WP:POV and your use of statements like - "The use of English-medium education as a political and cultural assimilation tool.".}

^{The third and final template deals with WP:Sources, You have provided many, many sources, but from what I can see many of them have not been mentioned within the body of the article. You should source statements like - "At the time people in many areas of Cornwall did not speak or understand English." with a relevant source. You should check out Wikipedia:Footnotes, this is the best way to source statements.}

^{On a completely unrelated note, it is usually common practice to sign (~~~~) your talk page entries at the end, not the beginning. Hope this helps with your article, thanks for reading. « Keith t/_e» 16:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)}

^{eog1916Eog1916 16:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC) Dear Keith, Thanks for the advice, I will take ALL that you say on board...promise!}

^{[edit] Speedy deletion of 'Cultural assimilation'}

^{A tag has been placed on 'Cultural assimilation', requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:}

^{Exact duplicate of Cultural assimilation}

^{Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet very basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.}

^{For guidelines on specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for bands, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. NipokNek 13:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)}

• ^{Instead of creating this article, why on earth did you not edit English-medium? -- RHaworth 16:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)}

^{[edit] Re-listing}

^{No word back from Stibbs, so I took the liberty of re-listing my new and improved version of 'English medium education'. Hope that you like it...if not please feel free to talk to me about it.Eog1916 21:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)}

^{[edit] India and Bharat}

^{See Constitution of India [1] Eog1916 22:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)}

[edit] Irish (Gaelic)

By replacing "Irish" with "Gaelic" or "Irish Gaelic" in links, you break them, because they no longer link to the article in question. The usual academic name for the language is "Irish", so please stop trying to change how Wikipedia refers to it. Thank you. —Angr 19:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Again: please stop pushing your opinion of how to call the language. The language is called "Irish" in academic literature, including encyclopedias. Other names can be discussed at Irish language#Names of the language, but within the article itself and in other articles, the language is correctly referred to as "Irish". This is especially true of Old Irish, which is quite literally never called "Old Irish Gaelic". Also, in the infobox, stop replacing "Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" with "Ireland" in the "states" section. Ireland is not a state. —Angr 19:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Dear Angr, RE: "By replacing "Irish" with "Gaelic" or "Irish Gaelic" in links, you break them, because they no longer link to the article in question." Surely one can re-direct the link? RE:"Again: please stop pushing your opinion of how to call the language." Are you trying to be offensive by asserting that I am 'pushing my opinion' ? Eog1916 11:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Republicanism

Eoghan, I notice you are more interested in Irish cultural nationalism but I was also hoping a good editor like yourselves would help out over at

	This article is within the scope of the Irish Republicanism WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to Irish republicanism and Irish nationalism. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Article Grading: The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. WikiProject Irish Republicanism tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Irish Republicanism tasks: Official IRA: Cathal Goulding Provisional IRA: Ivor Bell Continuity IRA: Dáithí Ó Conaill Real IRA/32 County Sovereignty Movement: Bernadette Sands McKevitt INLA: Seamus Costello Sinn Féin: Sue Ramsey, Danny Morrison, Francis Brolly, Paul Butler Edit or discuss this list.

 

regards--Vintagekits 17:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that you got me totally wrong. I'm not particulary interested in 'Irish Republicanism' or its like althoug I am very interested in historical events and personalities and ideas! I'm particularly interested in languages, education and the arts and in what brings out the best in people...but especia;;y in what unites people.

Eog1916 18:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help me

Hi Eog1916. I am responding to the help me template you placed. I see the template but no question. The normal format is to place a specific question or problem and then flag it with the template. So I am removing the template for the moment since I don't currently see a question.--Fuhghettaboutit 18:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)