Talk:English people/Related ethnic groups

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Related Ethnic Groups

There is a column on the article titled 'related ethnic groups', which I find to be quite useless as it is so highly controversial and there are so many ways of viewing an ethnic group and defining how they are related, but it's there none the less. The inclusion of Germans as a related ethnic group to the English is not valid as if it is then most of Europe's ethnic groups should also be included. English people have some influence from the Teuton tribes of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. These people came from the north west of the continent. They spoke a language which is a forerunner to both modern English and German. They were Germanic tribes, but not German. The inclusion of related ethnic groups as Danes, Frisians and Dutch covers the lands whence these people came and also represents the migratory patterns of people between these areas over the centuries. Including Germans implies that the German people whose extent reaches far from Britain and who are a blend of peoples that never came close to Britain would mean that the English and Germans are as related as the English are to the Italians or Spanish, both of which are groups that also shared ancestors with the English (and rest of the British). If it is indeed true, as some scholars have suggested, that areas whence the Angles and Saxons came were completely depopulated as those people moved to Britain, then there is no continuation to link the English with Germans. So include Germans as related people, but also include the French (Normans), Italians (Romans), Icelanders and Swedes (Vikings) and all those groups represented in Britain throughout the centuries: Jews, Russians, Spanish, etc. Enzedbrit 21:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok it makes sense to me to say that if the Danes, Frisians and Dutch are included, then these peoples represent the Teutonic contribution to English people. Thanks for your explanation. Alun 05:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Cheers Alun, I'm quite pleased actually with my argument there Enzedbrit 11:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The Italians obviously have no link with the English and the Germans are much more related to the English than Italians are. Enzedbrit, you are forgetting that the Angles and Saxons came from areas which remain part of Germany, although it is thought that they would be more related to modern Frisians than to modern people from Schleswig-Holstein. In a cultural and linguistic sense, the English are Germanic and in this sense are more related to Germans and other Germanic peoples more than any other groups. If you are speaking in terms of ancestry and genetics, then the English would obviously also be related to the Celtic peoples of Britain, but would still also remain related to the Germanic peoples, including modern Germans. The Germans of northern Germany share genetic and ancestral ties to the Anglo-Saxons just as the English, Frisians and Danes do. The Romans do not represent modern Italian people and were an agglomeration of different peopels from all over the empire. The Normans were mainly Scandinavians who had assimilated much Gallo/Latin (French) culture and in no way represent modern French. In either case, both groups settled in Britain with very few numbers and did not leave a lasting demographic impact. The French, Italians, Spaniards,etc. obviously have very little or no cultural or ancestral relation to the English and clearly nothing that can be compared to what the English share with the Germans. Epf 16:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I would dispute the idea that the English are "culturally" Germanic. What characteristics do the modern English share with the Germans that they do not also share with the French, for example? As far as "culture" is concerned, the English have far more in common with their insular neighbours the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish. TharkunColl 17:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

How are the English Germanic in a cultural sense, I do not understand this assertion, the Welsh, Scots, nad Irish have a far closer cultural affinity to the English than the Germans do. Can you enlighten me as to the nature of the cultural ties between the German people and English people? Given that English, Welsh and Scots people have shared the same Island for a millenium and a half, and have been part of the same state (the UK) for several centuries (nearly 500 years in the case of the Welsh and English), this seems like a spurious proposition. As for language, Francis Pryor states All I will note is that language is not necessarily a defining attribute of a particular ethnic group, and that the words and grammar of what was to become the English language were not solely derived from Germanic sources. Alun 17:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

• As you know Alun, English language is a Germanic language and is based on the old English language of the Anglo-Saxons. Obviously there is much Norman French influence in modern English language but the language retains its original Anglo-Saxon base and further strong Germanic influences from Vikings, speakers of Old Norse. Yes the Scots and Welsh have a cultural affinity with the English but the cultural relation they have is much more from centuries of English cultural dominance and influence in the region. I should mention here that in "Germanic", I dont mean ethnic Germans, but the culture of all Germanic groups (Dutch, Frisians, Scandinavians, etc.). My discourse above was only there to show that the English obviously share more in common culturally with Germans than with other European groups of Southern Europe. English culture IS largely Germanic and its origins are from Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. The French-speaking Normans (descendants of Vikings themselves) brought continental influences (mainly on language) and advances (feudalism, castles, accounting offices, etc.), but the culture of England remained to be predominantly Germanic. As well as its Germanic language (which even today shares more in common with other Germanic languages than any others), the culture of England, although it obviously is different from other Germanic peoples (say just as Danes are different from Dutch), it still remains to be classified as Germanic. I could spend all day listing the majority aspects of English culture and national identity which traces its roots to the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, from farming, measurements and work ethic to written documentation (e.g. of history), ruling classes, government systems (e.g. shires) and even naval traditions. The Welsh on the other hand have retained many strong aspects of their Celtic culture, not just language, that simply is not found with English culture. Even in Scotland where English influence has massively eroded away the original Gaelic culture and language (once widespread across the whole nation), the Gaelic elements remain that again is not found in English culture. I will end this discourse simply with this: identify to me the small parts of English culture and even national identity which are not Germanic (i.e. can not be traced to the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings) ? Epf 05:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What is Gaelic about all of Scotland? Tartan? Northumbria has a tartan. Gaelic influence? Cumbria was settled by Gaels, as was north Wales and parts of north west England. Original Gaelic culture? The Gaels arrived only two centuries before the Teutons and when they did arrive they supplanted the Brythonic culture. What links all of Scotland together as a culture that is distinct from England other than a Scottish national identity? Nothing. How do Scottish people live daily differently to the rest of the British? They don't. But all the British eat, work, live in houses and drink their tea exceedingly different to how the Germans, French, Spanish or Italians live. How is English culture more largely Germanic than Scotland or Wales? Aside from the fact that you'll hear Welsh in most parts of Wales and Gaelic in the Hebrides and other isolated places, not much. Bagpipes are no more alien to London than they are to Edinburgh, hedgerows and afternoon tea doesn't end at Carlisle and they eat Welsh rarebit in Sussex I can assure you. Enzedbrit 11:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

• There are tartans for groups, places, regions and all sorts of things all over the world but the tartan along with the clan system still has its origins with Gaels and Gaelic culture. Cumbria was only very lightly settled by Gaels, as was the few areas of Wales and south-west England. They did not arrive in signficant enough numbers there to obviously leave an imprint anywhere near on the scale that they did in Scotland. The Gaels are largely responsible for the creation of Scottish identity and culture and their impact is still felt all over Scotland in varying degrees. Indeed the Gaelic culture did supplant the native Byrthonic and Pictish cultures, but this just goes to show how much of an impact the culture of the Gaels had there. Bagpipes in London still doesnt exclude the fact that they are from Scottish culture just as a Chinese restaurant in London doesnt exclude the fact that cuisine is from Chinese culture. It is a very ignorant and offensive statement to Scottish people around the world to say there is nothing that links the culture of Scotland that makes it distinct from England. Not that it matters though since its largely false. English culture is obviously more Germanic than that of Wales, since Welsh culture wouldnt be "Welsh" without its strong Brythonic Celtic elements that are not seen with English culture. Just because you can find cultural elements of a group around the world because of globalization doesnt take away the distinctive origin of such cultural elements to certain groups and peoples. Scotland overall is a thorny issue as it has alot of Germanic influence from both the English and the Norse, but its original Gaelic elements remain in varying degrees across the whole country and obviously the culture overall is still distinguished from that of England with anything from music, festivals and food to family traditions, languages, sports and politics/government systems. Although obviously also very much related, the distinctions between Welsh and especially Irish culture with English is even more pronounced than is the case with Scotland (English was only spoke by a minority of people in "Catholic" Ireland until the 18th century). Epf 02:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay mate, fess up. WHAT about Wales is Brythonic that England doesn't have? What about England is Germanic that Wales/Scotland doesn't have? C'mon! I can think of the Eisteddford... and that's it. You really don't like the idea of England not being Germanic don't you. You say you're English - may I ask you: are you offended by the linking of England's indigenous heritage to its modern existence? It's not just me noting your obsession with making England out to be this amazing Germanic entity. When did you get this into your head and do you think you will ever change it? Enzedbrit 07:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• Enzedbrit, your comment here makes no sense whatsoever and I've already argued before about how there are differences in culture between English, Scots and Welsh, even if in your arrogant viewpoint they are not seen as "significant". Wales obviously retains much more Brythonic elements than England (with the possible exception of a few parts of Cornwall) and England indeed is more Germanic culturally than Wales or Scotland in the sense that it does not share the same Brythonic and Gaelic cultural elements. Your accusations towards me here are pointless and have nothing to do with our debate, but being of English heritage on my father's side, I have no qualms about English having a significant ancient British ancestral component and I have never argued against such. I am only discussing the obvious and widely accepted fact that they are largely Germanic in both culture and language, more so than the other peoples of the isles and that they are also descended from Germanic peoples as well as ancient Britons. There is no obsession here and this word may be more synonymous with your own unaccepted views towards ethnicity in Britain. Epf 23:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need to cite references to prove the links of 'all' of these ethnic groups to the English? Is there really any doubt about the other British peoples for example? Enzedbrit 20:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that in order to address the obvious angst of some and prevent the vandalism by those who keep changing the page without consensus, whilst acknowledging that minor useful edits or sensible ones are okay, I think that we should acknowledge the Teuton tribes as they remain on the Scottish people page and replace the Danes and Frisians to represent the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. I am unsure about the Dutch as this still covers a wide area most of which would've been unrelated to the origins of the Anglo-Saxons. Germans must still be definately left out as that is too broad, in mine and others opinions, and as the Normans are commonly held to be Vikings, and didn't come over in large numbers, should be represented well by the Danes. Enzedbrit 08:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no particular objection to including the Danes and Frisians, though I don't think the Dutch should be included, and nor the Germans. TharkunColl 17:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, I see there's been a lot of heated debate since I was last here. Was there a consensus to only count peoples from the British Isles as ethnically related? Can't see a problem with it myself. Had a request to join the debate, but thought you two seemed to have most of it covered. This talk page needs archiving, but I don't want to archive any ongoing debates, so I might try to archive a few of the older discussions by subject rather than by date finished. Alun 17:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)