Talk:Empire State Express

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An entry from Empire State Express appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 10 March 2006.

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Please put FACTS on this page and not US nationalist propaganda. Most of the claims of the performance of this train are not believed outside the USA. But they have been presented here as truth. Oxyman 00:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tool for Education or American propaganda

Is Wikipedia a resource for education and carrying FACTS or a tool for American propaganda? I have edited out reticules claims by Americans in the Land speed record for railed vehicles and Empire State Express only to have arrogant Americans delete them and accuse me of pov can we have a neutral observer look at these sections Oxyman 02:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I am asked for a citation when I say the 100mph claim is not respected outside the USA, where is you citation when making these claims?Oxyman 03:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The proper process would be to ask for the citation to be made. However, since you did not, we reverted back to the last version that did not include unsourced POV. Now, though, I have located and included a source. Unfortunately, you have already violated WP:3RR. If you had simply been willing to discuss the change, we might have avoided this mess in the first place.

As it stands, the statement is now cited, which may require rewording that paragraph slightly. If you still wish to add your assertion (provided an admin has not already blocked you), please provide a citation first. -- Kesh 03:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The term unofficial timers probably means that they can't be trusted! Speed should revert to what the neutral observer Niels states, I won't do this as I'll be accused of insulting Americans by users including Kesh. Oxyman 05:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

citations are needed on the following two statements "observers claimed to have clocked the train at 112 mph, or 180 km/h." "The Express was recorded traveling at 121.5 mph (195.5 km/h) during an exhibition run between Batavia and Buffalo on May" I brought this to peoples attention but this was removed without discusion by User:Kesh. Oxyman 05:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Citations have been provided. The timers may be unofficial, but the "claim" is made. Since you insist, I've also placed the cite in the first instance of the claim. -- Kesh 17:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Not surprisingly given your arrogant manner up to now you have written the article so that the casual observer will think these "unofficial" claims are fact it should be clear to the reader that these are unofficial claims, after all is Wikipedia a source of facts or American arrogance such as that displayed by you. An American may say that the claims can be trusted but that is seen as ridicules outside the USA. I request that this article be edited by a non biased person Oxyman 17:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)Oxyman 17:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

so is it ok to put "unverified information" in Wikipedia so long as it has an American bias? Oxyman 17:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

See your talk page for a reply. Given you are copy & pasting this everywhere, I'm not going to explain myself repeatedly. -- Kesh 18:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

"No. 999 entered service in May of 1893, making the trip from Syracuse, New York to the Chicago World's Fair. The Express was recorded traveling at 121.5 mph (195.5 km/h) during an exhibition run between Batavia and Buffalo on May 10, making No. 999 the fastest-moving manmade invention of its time and the first object on wheels to exceed 100 mph (161 km/h)".where in this statement is it mentioned and visible to the casual observer that this is an unoficial claim? Oxyman 19:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I use copy and paste if that is the most appropriate way of posting information, Is that OK? Please realize that you are arrogant and stop putting thinly veiled insults everywhere, at least I am open about my insults."No. 999 entered service in May of 1893, making the trip from Syracuse, New York to the Chicago World's Fair. The Express was recorded traveling at 121.5 mph (195.5 km/h) during an exhibition run between Batavia and Buffalo on May 10, making No. 999 the fastest-moving manmade invention of its time and the first object on wheels to exceed 100 mph (161 km/h)".where in this statement is it mentioned and visible to the casual observer that this is an unoficial claim? Oxyman 19:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC) There you go with the reductio ad absurdum again - just calm down and think logically, stop making the silly, rash statements. It's mentioned at the bottom. You see the little number next to the end of that sentence that you mentioned? Like this: "making No. 999 the fastest-moving manmade invention of its time and the first object on wheels to exceed 100 mph (161 km/h).[1]" You see the little number one there? Click on it. It'll take you to the bottom of the page, showing you a link to a source in the references section below this comment (John Lienhard, Rain, Steam & Speed: Inventing Powered Motion) for that statement. This is what I was talking about earlier - the "to cite sources (give links to external, neutral and reliable evidence to support any points you make, see WP:FOOT for how to do it)" bit - this is how you use WP:FOOT. If you don't agree with that source, then discuss it politely on the article talk page, and stop being paranoid. Remember, There Is No Cabal, we are just trying to help. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 09:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that aspect of wikipedia, the Arrogant insulting [user:Kesh] has written The article so that the casual observer will be mislead into believing these are official or credible claims wich of course they are not, the claim lacks vital caveats I would be happy if it was clearly visible when reading the article that these are unofficial claims. I thought Wikipedia was about credible information not American propaganda. The Empire State Express article is at present just a tool for Americans to rub their ego's the minimum that should happen is there be a disputed.

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page.

banner Oxyman 22:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that this banner is "more accurate" then the one I suggested you may notice that the information in the banner doesn't match that written in the artice which claims a top speed of 121 mph

it appears that —Vanderdecken∴ is a sock puppet of userKesh. as the arrogance and insults coming from the users are very similar Oxyman 00:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That's an extremely serious accusation to make. I am not using sockpuppets, and if you take it up at Wikipedia:Requests for Checkuser, it can be proven that you are wrong. -- Kesh 00:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Now, I have updated the section in question to make it clear that this was an unofficial timing. If Oxyman wishes to dispute the remaining portion of the paragraph, please provide the citation and requested addition/change to the paragraph for alternate claims. I'm guessing you're referring to the Flying Scotsman that was added to the other page in question? If so, I would have no problem with adding a properly cited addition here. -- Kesh 00:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems like a straightforward story but the controversy about this locomotive on Wikipedia points out the limitations of online resources. The story as reported here is still full of misinformation, and even some of the online references have flaws.

The reported speed of the 999 was timed by reporters, train officials, and others designated by the railroad to record the speed between specifically surveyed milesposts during the record breaking attempt. At that time there were no "official" timers or a recognizing body. That does not mean that the event was not recorded by multiple witnesses who have verified the speed obtained for a short straight level section of the track near Batavia. It is about as official as you are going to get. Unless someone has details of an unknown record breaking attempt by a locomotive elsewhere at or before May 10, 1893, this would have been the first time a manmade object travelled faster than 100 MPH.

The overall speed between stations was a record as well, but the locomotive could not maintain 112.5 MPH the entire trip, and this is noted on Catskillarchive reference. The Genessee County reference incorrectly gives a story about the record attempt being an ad hoc last minute trip, when in fact this locomotive, and the previous record holder were specially built for the record. In addition it notes a 69 mile trip from Rochester to Buffalo took 68 minutes and incorrectly gives an estimated speed as 102 MPH. Simple math would indicate that the speed was about 1 mile per minute or approximately 60 MPH. This was not the record attempt however. It should also be noted that many books about railroads of this era describe trains especially out west that routinely achieved 60 MPH. This did not dispel then current fears that high speed would cause black out by sucking out the air out of someone's lungs.

It should be noted that George H Daniels who was in charge of public relations for the railroad asked the railroad's Master Mechanic William Buchannan to design the 999 to exceed the speed of his previous record holder which obtained the average speed of 61.4 MPH between New York and Buffalo in 1891. The 999 was built along with several similar locomotives for the 1893 Worlds Fair and Columbia Exposition. The sister locomotives (called Buchannan type) were all American type 4-4-0 and had smaller 70 inch diameter driving wheels. The sister locomtives were on display or worked in Chicago during the fair. The 999 was to haul visiters from New York to Buffalo on the railroad mainline which was part of the way to the fair. Charles Hogan was designated the engineer for the speed attempt. The Catskillsonline reference gives excellent details about the consist, the route and grade and other relevent information. It should also be noted that the record attempt was with a full train, and not a stand alone locomotive, which most likely would have gone much faster than while pulling a full load.

The locomotive was replaced within 6 years of the record by more powerful (if not as fast) steam locomotives with more driving wheels. The 4-4-0 American style was at the end of it's useful life on mainline railroads, with bigger trains and steel railroad cars becoming more common. In 1899 the 86 inch drivers were replaced with 70 inch diameter wheels, and the 40 inch truck wheels replaced by 33 inch diameter wheels. She was put in local passenger service on the Rome, Watertown and Ogdensburg Division (not part of the mainline). In May 1905 the boiler was replaced witha modified design. In 1913 the number 999 was changed to 1086. In 1923 the remaining components of the locomotive, which would have been the frame was "done over" and the number 999 was restored. Thre was slight resemblence of the locomotive when exhibited at the New York Worlds Fair in 1940 to the original. Apprently the locomotive was in use until 1964. The current locomotive on display in Chicago does not have the original boiler or correct size drivers (or presumably the truck wheels).

There are many books which have more details of the story, I would recommend "Yonder Comes the Train" pages 354 and 355 by Lance Phillips. baronvon