Talk:Emir

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Emir: Originally from the Classical Egyptian c. 3,000 B.C., from the word "imy-r" (Overseer). Literally, "in the mouth of." The title was applied to agents of the king (Pharoah = "pr Ah-ah" Great House) who were entrusted with high administrative responsibilities.

The classical hieroglyph depicts an owl "im or m" (preposition "in") and an oval representing a mouth "r" (noun meaning "mouth").

In prehistoric times, the word imy-r was written as an ox tongue and meant "in the mouth." Over time the word was given a phonetic spelling.

See, Chap. V, para 79 "Egyptian Grammar" 3d ed., by Sit Alan Gardiner; Griffith Institute, Ashmolean Museum, Oxford. Also, see, "A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian" by Raymond o. Faulkner; P. 18. Griffith Institute, University Press, Oxford.

1 Color photos in 1909???
2 Flow
3 Please use the procedure for moving
4 Requested move
- 4.1 Survey
- 4.2 Discussion
  - 4.2.1 emyr

[edit] Color photos in 1909???

THAT COLOR PHOTOGRAPH COULDN'T HAVE BEEN TAKEN IN 1909! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE; HOW COULD COLOR PHOTOGRAPHY HAVE BEEN SO GOOD IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD, YET STAY BLACK & WHITE IN OURS??? --Shultz 04:55, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Colorization? Yanksta x 02:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flow

I tried to make the sentences flow a little better but in doing so I might have inadvertently altered some facts--there were some sections that were quite hard to follow, and i just ended up writing what I was *pretty sure* the author meant. Please let me know if anything is wrong. Thanks. Psp 05:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Having written much of the page, as an allophone quite possibly without a good feel for the 'flow', I can reassure you that you've done a better job then most self-proclaimed 'copy-editors' and seem to be a good reader: my congratulations. I'll do just the minor fitting now, but hope to elaborate on the still rather embryonic content later. Fastifex 10:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please use the procedure for moving

This article should not have been moved in the way it was; just because someone with a negligible contribs history (and no contribs at all to the article in question) says it's wrong doesn't make it so. This article used "Emir" preferentially until an anon recently changed it. Please move the article back the way it was, and Amrix can follow the proper procedure at Wikipedia:Requested moves, which involves building consensus. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems like a simple transliteration issue to me. When is the Arabic letter alif ever transliterated e? —Keenan Pepper 22:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not debating which name is appropriate; I'm asking that consensus for the move be obtained before the move is made. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. Obviously, it's already been moved once. How can concensus be obtained without debating which name is appropriate? —Keenan Pepper 22:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Finlay's point is that your "speedy move" should be reversed as being 'out of process' regardless of which name is "appropriate"; and that the article should only be moved if a request is posted at requested moves and the consensus is that "amir" is appropriate. 24.18.215.132 00:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Initially, when I made a search for Amir, I was redirected to a Wiki page Emir, with the article title Amir, hence the reason I made the request for the change, to make it less confusing. Emir is a original english translation of the arabic word, which is a bad translation. --Amrix 03:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with you making the request, based on your beliefs/opinions. However, since the move is obviously NOT 'uncontroversial', it should have been posted at Wikipedia:Requested moves to determine consensus, before it was just unilaterly moved. 24.18.215.132 03:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Although "amir" is the proper transliteration of the Arabic word, "emir" has been an English word since the 17th century. In the article, "emir" is used in the (English) titles "Emir of Kuwait", "Emir of Qatar", etc. while "amir" is only used in direct transliterations from Arabic, like "Amir al-Umara" and "al-Amir al-Hakim". Therefore, because of WP:UE, I've moved the page back to Emir. Feel free to request a move at WP:RM. Eugène van der Pijll 09:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I have made the relevant post. I would like to recommend the following reading relating to this proposal: (alif and Arabic_transliteration). Amrix 11:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was not moved. Jonathunder 23:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Emir → Amir – {Rationale: Emir is the incorrect transliteration for the arabic word Amir. In arabic Amir starts with alif which is translated as A not E (please see wiki article on alif and arabic transliteration). } Amrix 18:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Oppose - unlike many less well-known (originally) Arabic terms, Emir has been in common use in English and various other European languages since the 16th century Fastifex 20:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Support, there seems to be a mistranslation by the early British explorers. 212.111.50.104 14:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Come on! The word entered English, apparently via its nobility's French, before there even were any English (British would be an anachronism) explorers; (southern) Europe came to know them centuries earlier, as Muslims conquered Iberia and raided most of the Mediterranean, and all Europe discussed them as it crusaded
Strongly oppose Whatever its origin, Emir is now the English word. Will we be imposing "correct" transliteration on coffee next? (And when the fashion in transliteration changes, as it has, what then?) Septentrionalis 17:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose: Emir is the English word. Jonathunder 21:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. Used in English. Finlandais 10:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - in English, it's emir.--Aldux 22:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I was under the impression that as times change, english words change and their spelling too. Correct me if I am wrong? Amrix 18:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

That's vague enough to be a truism. Some words in just about any language change at some time(s), but most remain for centuries, many forever. As a rule, words remain untill there is a powerfull stimulus for change: spelling reform, some major movement, a new dominant meaning etc... Which do you claim to apply and which authoritative source support(s) such claim(s)? Linguists seem to recognize Emir as far better established, e.g. it's an entry in EtymologyOnLine, not Amir Fastifex 07:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, in Encyclopedia Iranica, it's under Amir and not Emir. Your arguments aren't balanced at all. Amrix 09:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  - No, that's a ~reference work specializing in oriental subjects AND terms, they have to use the authentic forms in Arabic, Turkish, Persian etc. (even just to distinguish and trace etymology) and target a niche public aquainted with such languages. Wikipedia is for every Dick and Joe, who should know the word emir but will probably never hear about the dozens of exotic uses and compounds the rare persons interested in such matters will herefore look up in such works as Enc. Iranica. Fastifex 11:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
    - I do accept that Emir is the correct english (european?) spelling, however looking at ways in improving this article and to clear up any confusion, an addition possibly needs to be made to explain the confusion. All real names that are أمير, are translated to Amir and not Emir, even though in the past for other meanings (such as prince or princedom), they have been translated to Emir. Amrix 13:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.