Talk:Embrace, extend and extinguish

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Citation This page was cited by Harvard Law Review

[edit] SMB

How could Microsoft have 'embraced' SMB? It wasn't an existing standard, but something Microsoft developed from scratch.

Not entirely from scratch. According to [1], it was based upon work from 3com and IBM as well. But it may be a poor example, since SMB appears to be largely Microsoft work.

[edit] JavaScript/JScript

Could somebody explain please why JavaScript was an example of eee?

Yes. Microsoft's implementation of Javascript in IE, called JScript, used a different Document object model to Netscape's. When W3C standards were created for the DOM, Microsoft continued to ignore them. This means that pages scripted for IE often do not work in standards-compliant browsers. In addition, Microsoft's implementation of JScript also allowed other scripting languages to be used, encouraging fragmentation of Web scripting.

[edit] Free software

In addition, free software has so far appeared to be resistant to the "Embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy, at it prevents the third phase of the plan from being executed, by ensuring that any vendor extensions to the standard are available to the community, and cannot be tied to any single vendor.

I'm kind of confused by this. At the beginning, it seems to say that it is ineffective to use EEE against free software, but at the end it seems to say that it is ineffective to use EEE on behalf of free software. Ahhh, now I see it -- it's talking about taking free software code and modifying it (modifications must stay within the license, thus cannot be kept proprietary). This doesn't seem to match with the rest of the article, which talks about creating imcompatible implementations of standards. That's a whole nother game, folks. --Brion 08:00 Oct 14, 2002 (UTC)

Put back above text with wording clarified to attempt to fix the problem above.

[edit] consoles, disk compression, spreadsheets

Recently added to the article:

• XBox/PS-2
• Doublespace/Stacker
• Excel/QuattroPro

Surely these cannot be examples of EEE, as there were no open standards to embrace? Rather, Microsoft introduced a competing product which performs a similar function but is not at all compatible with the other, previously more popular proprietary product. EEE is based on advertising compatibility but providing an incoming upgrade path only. --Brion

Well put. I would guess, based on the overall flavor of this article, that a user, perhaps unaware of the NPOV policy, saw this article as a forum for Microsoft-bashing. Perhaps this is not true, but in any case the author of those additions has made attacks on Microsoft which are not only non-NPOV, but have nothing to do with the topic of the article.

These additions have been removed, so shouldn't "The neutrality of this article is disputed." be removed as well? I don't see any other mention of NPOV issues on the talk page.

Aragorn2 13:52, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "tragedy of the commons" etc

I have removed all the stuff about "tragedy of the commons", ontological warfare, and other such hard-to-read stuff. Also the (supposedly related) biology. The article should get down to the substance of the issue, rather than these very technical ideas which most people cannot, I take it, easily understand. Evercat 14:51, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• well thanks for letting me know you deleted some good stuff. now i can look for it in the history pages

[edit] no longer support Win32

I pulled this sentence that was added by an anon user on Nov 27 2004.

Microsoft has also announced that they will no longer support Win32, which is the API used by Standard C and C++ programmers on Windows.

I really doubt they are going to stop supporting Win32. Maybe concentrate future development elsewhere, but I really doubt they are going to stop supporting it. Can anyone cite a source where Microsoft announce this? AlistairMcMillan 18:27, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Internet Explorer v Netscape

I removed this text, which was added by CyborgTosser in this edit:

it would be inaccurate to apply the term to a subject such as Internet Explorer vs. Netscape Navigator

He doesn't explain why he thinks EEE shouldn't be applied to this subject and it doesn't make sense when components of IE and NN (i.e. HTML, ActiveX, Java and JavaScript) are cited throughout the article as examples of EEE. AlistairMcMillan 19:04, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

I'm no MS fan, but I think this article is clearly POV (or thinly veiled) at points. -Grick(^{talk to me!}) 06:44, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Please explain which points. If you don't explain which points you are disputing, then I'm going to pull the disputed tag. AlistairMcMillan 12:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've just gone ahead and rephrased a few points I thought were questionable. Perhaps the tag was a bit overreacting; thanks for waiting before pulling it though. -Grick(^{talk to me!}) 04:48, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disagree with "Most Companies ..."

"Most companies see standards as merely a way of comforting customers that a technology is fundamentally mature and immediately concentrate on proprietary extensions, the value added, which is the primary way of retaining customers over time."

The author of this seems to be saying that most companies view public standards as merely some sort of marketing gimmick and that most companies are primarily in the business of creating proprietary standards and products in order to retain customers. That is ridiculous if you step back and think about it.

Standards are very fundamental and absolutely essential for modern business practices. How could a company have much of a revenue stream if there was no standard currency to use? How long could a company stay in business if it ignored the laws that applied where it operated? In fact, standards are so fundamental in any civilized society that we normally don’t even consider not complying with them; instead we normally view violating accepted standards as "cheating" or "crime".

Unless a company is trying to sell some "bleeding edge" product, there is normally no need for it to reassure prospective customers that some technology is fundamentally mature, so obviously most companies do not view standards as "merely" a way to do so. Even in situations where technological maturity is an issue, companies join forces to create standards primarily out of a desire to mature the technology, not to create some marketing gimmick.

With respect to the marketing aspect of standards, the most important considerations for any prospective customer would usually include: "What is it?", "Will it work?" and "Is it safe?" Unless the answers are obvious (or can be made obvious through demonstrations), the company will often refer to standards to help answer those questions, but that is not the same as using it as a gimmick. Actually, because standards tend to be a dry subject, marketing people don’t usually like to talk about them much. As a result, standardization is probably much more important to most companies than many people realize. Furthermore, the standards are often customer-driven as a means of defining the customers' needs and improving the chances that they will be met. (Think about military specifications, for example.) That's not to say standards are never used as a marketing gimmick -- it certainly happens -- but that's the exception, not the rule.

The primary way of retaining customers over time is (hopefully) meeting their needs. If a company produces products that violate existing standards, whether it is concentrating (in some way) on proprietary extensions or not, usually customers will conclude that the company’s products are defective and the abandon the company. The company may even find itself in legal hot water or suffering sanctions from peer groups. This, of course, assumes that the company has a peer group with enough clout to enforce its sanctions and to give customers other alternatives.

"Most companies ... immediately concentrate on proprietary extensions, the value added" Immediately after what? Concentrate how? Value added to what? Manufacturing companies add value by converting raw materials into finished products for their customers. Companies that sell services add value by improving their customers' situations. Only something like a contract design or engineering firm could claim to add value for its customers by concentrating on extending established standards.

[edit] Yank entire Free software EEE

I think the entire Free software EEE section should be removed. I suppose that would be a major revision requiring community consensus.

Even if GNU/Linux is responsible for the demise of previous UNIX operating systems, it does not follow that this was an example of EEE. EEE typically involves cynically embracing X, extending X to form X' and leveraging dominance in Y combined with true-X compatibility to form a critical mass for X', then breaking the X-X' compatibility. I don't see how there was any previously existing dominance in any Y for the Free Software movement to leverage.

As far as the statement UNIX vendors cannot incorporate extensions without being subject to strong constraints goes, nothing in the GPL can put any constraints on UNIX vendors extending their own software to match the capabilities of GNU software - there just isn't much of a financial incentive to do so. That's being undercut on price, not an example of EEE.

Naturally for software to run under the Linux kernel, it must have beeen compiled with a Linux-compatible compiler. We can't expect parts built to put in a Ford to work in a Toyota. But it's not as if this is being done just to lock out competitors. The C libraries are covered by the LGPL, not the GPL, so linking to them does not change proprietary software into free software.

I agree with the above, and have removed the section on "Free Software EEE". Whoever wrote this makes the assertion that "some" people believe that Free Software can work by the same process:

"According to some, the EEE strategy is also used by some free software",...

yet no reference is given for these mysterious "some". I have never encountered the term being used in this way to refer to Free Software, so this POV (if it exists) is probably rare. In any case, it certainly is not consistent with the meaning or intent of EEE, as that technique of achieving market dominance requires the sort of proprietary control that copylefted free software is explicitly designed to prevent. As you have pointed out, the example given for this putative "Free Software EEE" is really about something else entirely -- namely that proprietary software products are sometimes not competitive with Free Software alternatives and may be withdrawn from the market by their vendors. This is a perfectly normal process in any competitive market, and has nothing to do with EEE. --65.87.250.131 04:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ActiveX/XPCOM

I removed the mention of technologies like ActiveX and XPCOM since they embraced nothing. For EEE, the first steps is to embrace an existing technology, like HTML, C++, etc. --minghong 13:47, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Halloween documents

Someone just added "and later confirmed to be real by Microsoft". Is this true? Why would MS want to confirm this? — Sebastian (talk) 23:15, 2005 May 21 (UTC)

http://web.archive.org/web/20010417195837/www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/mwarv/linuxresp.asp AlistairMcMillan 11:18, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] FS EEE

First of all, Linux isn't totally GCC dependent. GCC extended C, but only obscure aspects are solely attributed to GCC. The source code of GCC, make, and other crap is available anyway... and the person who wrote the FS EEE is a person who has no idea how programming works.

[edit] C++ standart support

The other issue with Microsoft's C++ implementation appears to be the removal of many originally strict errors and warnings that appear in other, more standards compliant compilers such as the open-source GCC compiler

Please provide proof that GCC supports c++ better than VC++ or I'll delete this section.

[edit] EEE original use not by "critics"

As the testimony at the anti-trust trial shows, embrace, extend, extinguish was actually used inside Microsoft before it became common parlance outside. Its wide adoption outside Microsoft generally followed the trial. This calls the entire opening paragraph into question. -- Gnetwerker 23:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV with Statistics

User:Gazpacho, the Microsoft apologist here, appears prone to lies with (inaccurate) statistics. Above, he implies that the phrase "embrace, extend, extinguish" gets only 18,300 hits (versus 156k for the Microsoft approved version). An actual google search for the words "embrace, extend, extinguish" with microsoft gets 68,800 hits[2], but the common variant "embrace, extend, exterminate" (also with microsoft) gets 43,400 hits[3] and a combined search (without "Microsoft") gets 309,000[4]. A simple search for the words "embrace" and "extend" with microsoft yields many more[5], but the top results are to things like "embrace, extend, and clone" or "embrace, extend, and censor"[6]. In any case, the number of google hits does not have any underlying meaning here. It is the policy, as described in the anti-trust trial, that is being described here. Gazpacho may want to sanitize it (he admits he has a POV on the subject), but we should not let him. The article shouldn't be any more anti-Microsoft than the facts are, but the facts are fairly damning. -- Anomicene 22:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard of "...and exterminate" and I went to Google Fight for the comparison because that's exactly what Google Fight is for. I wish you'd stop assuming bad faith on my part.

It is just misleading to claim that E&E was about "standards" in Netscape's case. Surely you remember how many "Netscape-enhanced" web pages there were circa 1995-96. They weren't "w3c-enhanced"; FONT, COLOR, BGCOLOR, LAYER, didn't come from the W3C. The W3C at the time was pushing math markup and a few other things that people outside academia didn't particularly care about. Gazpacho 22:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, you admitted your POV on Gnetwerker's talk page. And vis. Netscape, you can believe what you want, but it is all in the actual federal court testimony: [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] -- what more do you want? -- Anomicene 22:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I want the article not to suggest that Netscape was an open-standards saint, because it wasn't. If you've found all these other variants, isn't that just more reason to move back to E&E? Gazpacho 23:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The article isn't about Netscape, it is about Microsoft's policy, and the evidence of it. The article doesn't say Netscape was a standards angel, or anything else other than what the court testimony says. If you have POV to add about Netscape, go to their page and add it there. -- Anomicene 23:12, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree adding a bogon alert: It's perfectly normal to get more hits for "foo" than for "foo, bar" or "foo and bar" etc. The phrase here isn't "embrace and extend" used in various contexts, but "embrace, extend and extinguish" or its variant with serial comma. I've seen it in the wild (outside Wikipedia) by various authors several times, and of course it's mainly used in opposition to MS. It's a term like "terror", terrorists would prefer other terms for their activities. -- Omniplex 05:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

"It's a term like "terror", terrorists would prefer other terms for their activities" - ahhh, but you see that is in fact a POV. I'm sure if you were to look at Osama Bin Laden and the discussion surrounding that you'll see that the article never claims that OBL is a terrorist itself without attribution for that very reason. "I've seen it in the wild (outside Wikipedia) by various authors several times, and of course it's mainly used in opposition to MS" exactly, that is exactly what a point of view is and that statement is rather self-evident of the current page name. So, what I want to know is is the extinguish extension used consistantly by both sides, or is it mainly relegated to the anti-MS persuasion (such as slashdot), and if not, which is used more consistantly by both sides? I'm confident we can work together for a solution. Just another star in the night ^{T | @ | C} 09:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Is The Economist (conservative British financial magazine) good enough for you[12]? There are literally hundreds of other references to its use in mainstream journalism. You can't seriously expect a phrase which is (I think everyone agrees) intended as a criticism to be used "equally by both sides" -- that is silly. There may be a legit MS strategy lurking there (rather than an attempt to whitewash an embarrassing one), but that is another story. -- Gnetwerker 16:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not doubt the variant is widely used, but surely an article title should be the basic phrase, and not one arbitary variant therof? If you have sayings like "foo bar", "foo bar X", Foo bar Y", surely the correct thing to do is label the article "foo bar" and mention the variants within it? That way every phrase has one degree of separation from the title, whereas if you call it "foo bar X", "Foo bar Y" is twice removed. For a phrase with a family tree, I think you should pick the parent, and list its children, rather than pick on one particular child, and talk about its parent and siblings. Regards, MartinRe 16:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The "original" phrase is probably not the shortest. Unless you can prove that it is original, it would seem that the most complete phrase, rather than the one being promoted by Microsoft apologists and cronies, would be best. -- Anomicene 18:46, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You mean proof like the court transcript mentioning that "EMBRACE, EXTEND,EXTINGUISH." "WAS KIND OF A PLAY ON THEIR PUBLIC STRATEGY OF LOVE AND EMBRACE AND EXTEND" (verbatim quote)? This would seem to clearly indicate that e&e is the original phrase. PS. I am neither a apologist or cronie, I have no objection to the variants being included, I simply think that the base phrase should be the title of the article. MartinRe 00:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] As a general business strategy?

My main thought with this page is that what if we redid it a bit to describe as a general business strategy that originated at microsoft and is used mainly by them, rather then being used just by them? What do people think? Just another star in the night ^{T | @ | C} 23:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Or maybe even used just by microsoft, but described more in a general sense is what I'm saying. Just another star in the night ^{T | @ | C} 00:03, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colloquial

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/colloquial - "used informally" -- this does not apply here. -- Gnetwerker 23:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, maybe so - OK, I took another shot at it. Let me know what you think. Just another star in the night ^{T | @ | C} 23:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Public vs. internal use by Microsoft

Warrens tweaked the opening para with the edit summary that MS has not used the full term "publically". While this is true, it is contrary to the point of the page. The full phrase was used internally to MS (as sourced by the anti-trust case), and the shorter phrase simply a more acceptable public version of it. The full phrase accurately (if perhaps too colorfully for some) reflects the full strategy. -- Anomicene 00:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

There's a very big problem with this. We don't have any authoritative, encyclopedia-level sources that definitively state that "embrace, extend, extinguish" (not, "embrace, extend, and extinguish", by the way -- this article's title is actually wrong) was an internal Microsoft policy... we have testimony from exactly one person that this was the case, and that's all we've got. Nothing more. Microsoft contested his use of the phrase in cross-examination, noting that the phrase didn't appear in any of McGeady's notes from the meetings he attended at Microsoft. He did, however, write, "embrace, extend, and change the nature of the internet experience."[13] The phrase "embrace, extend, extinguish" only ever came out of his mouth in court.

Do you see the problem here? How can we write an encyclopedia article that authoritatively describes "embrace, extend, extinguish" as a term used internally at Microsoft if there's no documented, verifiable evidence that this is the case? Wikipedia is not here to editorialize, or to state things as fact that cannot be clearly proven as such. At best, we can characterize the term as something that McGeady said as part of court testimony -- verbal testimony is not, in and of itself, fact! My edits to the article make this characterization clear, so I've restored it to that version. If you want to revert it back to your preferred version where the phrase "was a term used internally at Microsoft", produce concrete evidence that the term was used internally at Microsoft. Nothing short of this is acceptable. Our goal here is to write an accurate encyclopedia with verifiable sources, not espouse opinions, even if we are convinced those opinions are fact. Warrens 01:38, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This has previouosly been covered in this talk page. There is no basis for a change. You (Warrens) are not introducing new evidence, just a POV. -- Gnetwerker 02:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Where's the verifiable source, then? It's not in the article. Warrens 02:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

A witness, in Federal court, under oath, testified that Microsoft used the term internally, a statement Microsoft did not refute. Case closed. -- Gnetwerker 02:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not "case closed". First of all, the guy could be lying or recalling information incorrectly. Second of all, testimony in court is not verified fact. We can verify that he gave this testimony in court, yes, but one guy saying something in court, under oath, doesn't make it verifiable fact! Remember, Bill Clinton once said under oath, "I want you to know I did not have sexual relationships with this woman, Monica Lewinsky," and we all know how that turned out.

What I'm asking for here is more than one source. Read Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Check_multiple_independent_sources and you'll see why. Can you provide another source of this claim that this was an actual internal Microsoft policy? I tried a few years ago (when I got into an debate with a friend over this very subject) and neither him or I could do it -- to a one, every trail of breadcrums came down to the part of the testimony linked in the article, and this (which could be considered a refutation of sorts):

        17   Q.  YOU TESTIFIED ON DIRECT EXAMINATION, MR. MCGEADY, THAT
        18   MR. MARITZ, OR SOMEONE FROM MICROSOFT, USED THE PHRASE
        19   "EMBRACE, EXTEND AND EXTINGUISH," DID YOU NOT?
        20   A.  YES, I DID.
        21   Q.  THAT IS NOT WHAT YOUR NOTES SAY, IS IT?
        22             WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE OF
        23   YOUR NOTES UNDER THE HEADING "MARITZ INTERNET OVERVIEW,"
        24   UNDER THE HEADING "APPROACH."
        25             AM I READING YOUR NOTES CORRECTLY TO SAY,
         1   "EMBRACE, EXTEND AND CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE INTERNET
         2   EXPERIENCE"?
         3   A.  THAT'S WHAT THE NOTES SAY, YES.
         4   Q.  YOU DON'T SEE THE WORD "EXTINGUISH" ANYWHERE IN THESE
         5   NOTES, DO YOU, MR. MCGEADY?
         6   A.  THIS IS THE PHRASE THAT I WOULD HAVE WRITTEN DOWN FROM
         7   THE PRESENTATION MATERIAL.  AND, AGAIN, THE COLORFUL
         8   COMMENTS THAT WERE ADDED TO THIS, I DIDN'T FEEL I NEEDED TO
         9   ADD THEM TO THIS.  THERE IS NO DANGER THAT I WOULD HAVE
        10   FORGOTTEN THEM.
        11   Q.  YOU DIDN'T NEED TO ADD THEM TO YOUR NOTES, BECAUSE YOU
        12   MADE THEM UP LATER, DIDN'T YOU, MR. MCGEADY?
        13   A.  THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE, AND I RESENT THE IMPLICATION.

[14]

I'm of the belief that there is no other source for this phrase, either because the guy made it up (possible but unlikely) or it never got out (also possible and more likely). Whatever. It's not our place to investigate or evaluate whether McGeady is right or wrong; it's our place to accurately state what information is available. That's what Wikipedia does. Surely you agree with that. Warrens 02:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Unless you are accusing McGeady of perjury in Federal court, the statements above (you've left out the direct) sounds conclusive. You need to produce some evidence that he was mistaken. Many people at Intel, Microsoft, and elsewhere were aware of this -- your argument that it wasn't used is disingenuous. You are trying to produce a pro-Microsoft whitewash which meets your interpretation of sourcing rules but is actually wrong. -- Anomicene 07:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Determining "right" from "wrong" is not what Wikipedia is about. Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, however, are cornerstone principles. I personally don't care that much whether Microsoft used the term internally or not; what I do really care about, however, is that information presented in Wikipedia articles is accurate based on the given sources. I encourage you to read Wikipedia:Assume good faith, another cornerstone Wikipedia principle. As your editorial contributions to Wikipedia have been strictly confined to this one specific subject, I'm going to assume that you don't fully understand the true importance of these principles. Instead of making accusations of "whitewash", how about you step up to the plate with actual, verifiable sources other than some guy's testimony in court? If you're right, this should be easy, yes? Wikipedia:Reliable sources is a guideline that applies to this article as much as it applies to every other article on the encyclopedia; you can't get around this basic fact by calling other contributors names. Warrens 12:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

This reference attributes it directly to MS in one use. I'll go look at the various other books written on the subject. I'm sure one or more of them attribute it to MS in this way as well. But I put in "allegedly" for now to end te revert war. -- Gnetwerker 17:01, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Office formats?

For example, Microsoft Office has long allowed users to import WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 files, but saving an Office document to those formats may omit some Office-specific features of the documents.

But, at the time this remark was relevant,

• could those Office-specific features be supported by the format at all?
• are these features mandatory?

Only if both of these questions can be answered with "yes" is this an example of EEE. Otherwise, I don't see how you can call offering a new document format with more capabilities than an old one "extinguishing", especially if you support two-way conversion. We need a more concrete example. 194.151.6.67 11:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing this comment from the article as I, too, don't believe it supports EEE --Thenickdude 13:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Firefox vs IE7

"New Internet Explorer for Windows Vista will feature 'tabbing' system quite similar to that of the Firefox browser, but with added preview feature for every tab." How is this embrace/extend/extinguish? Compatibility is completely irrelevant, it's just competition on features. --Nephtes 17:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and this should be removed. (Not to mention that Firefox isn't the only other browser with tabs). —DemonThing talk 16:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Done.--Nephtes 17:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added Counter criticism for NPOV enhancement

NPOV seems to call for some counter-balance here, hence the addition. It can use some rewording and sourcing, but the basic ideas are legitimate. Please note that this it represents alternative viewpoints repudiating the underlying validity of the EEE theory itself. It is *not* a substantive review/justification/characterization or claim about the specific practices of any individual company. Please consider these points before deciding whether to embrace, extend or exterminate the addition ;). drefty.mac 15:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

* the long-term market viability of individual products and features is highly uncertain, thus requiring all firms to embrace a wide variety of new developments just to stay relevant in the marketplace;

OK .

* the rapid pace of change, combined with highly differentiated consumer preferences,requires the ability to extend existing standards, which often progress too slowly;

What ? standards (i mean de jure standards ) exists to guarantee interoperability ; waht if LINUX / BSD /Sun / MS would each extend TCP/IP because 'the standards progress to slowly'

* the novelty and variety of possible innovations far outstrips the production capacity of the workforce, thus requiring prioritization and use of pre-existing proprietary extensions in order to enhance new products while still benefitting from legacy code; and products and product features are immediately extinguished when they become obsolete

"the production capacity of the workforce " is hard to quantify , when speaking of software ; i aggre that reusing old code is common . However, product and product features are NOT extinguished when new versions come out. there is a lot of low-cost software with no new features thatr is still for sale. Dbiagioli 15:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dbiagioli, I think there are 3 main issues here: 1) the independent factual merits and validity of each 'counter-criticism'; 2) the extent to which each counter-criticism is sufficiently noteworthy to justify mentioning in the article; and 3) the extent to which including *any* counter-criticisms enhances the NPOV of the article.

For 3), I will just assume we can agree NPOV improves with inclusion (if not let me know). For 2), I think this is an open question TBD by the natural progression of the article, but I think the addition as-is represents at least a good first draft of the main points. For 1), although you raise very good questions (which I address elsewhere) I think the individual merits of each point is a matter left to the opinion of the reader, just as the individual merits of arguments in a lawsuit is a matter left to the jury. The judges (aka, we the editors) are responsible only to make sure each side gets to present its arguments, (as long as they are relevant and admissible).

I guess there *is* some overlap between 1) and 2), so I do address your questions directly, if only to clarify what *some* have claimed as 'counter arguments' to EEE. Again, these are not neceesarily views I agree with personally, and are not to bash or support MSFT, or anyone else; just added fodder to boost NPOV (see: User:Dreftymac#EmbraceAndExtend)

The problem with this section is not that the article should not contain other viewpoints (indeed, it is short of them), but that it is completely unsourced, and most likely completely original research. I will come back and try to find some sources for it if no one else does, but have commented it out in the meantime. -- Gnetwerker 18:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely not original research, but admittedly it will benefit from citations. One issue is how to provide citations to widespread views within some segments of corporate subculture, (which are, by their very nature, not subject to academic review, and not amenable to completely public disclosure because of trade and strategic reasons).dr.ef.tymac 19:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: Originally, I included the counter-views because: 1) NPOV and balance; and 2) they represented fairly widespread claims (although perhaps contestable on the merits). Belatedly, I am adding some citations, strictly for the purpose of meeting the bare minimum proof of non-original research, and because the content has been removed. Additional citations are still needed, but this is at least a start.dr.ef.tymac 19:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but the citations you provided don't work. First, the Congressional testimony from the lawyer for the Entertainment Software Association is completely off-topic to the statement you attributed to her. Her testimony does not contain the words "standard" or "embrace" or anything remotely related to this article. The testimony was about the DMCA, a topic completely unrelated. The second reference, to the developer site "Webmonkey", was also not on target, and even if it was, it does not meet the test for a reliable source. The answer to your query above about how to cite "widely-held views", is that you need to find someone saying that they hold them, and doing so in a reliable source, for example, the New York Times, the Economist, etc. Even if the ESA's lawyer was testifying on-topic, you would have needed to say "Debra Laywer, hack for the ESA, said in testimony ... blah, blah, blah". -- Gnetwerker 20:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Because you are now addressing the credibility of citations, and not the merits of the added NPOV content itself, I will re-re-insert the NPOV content, and invite you to address any apparent citation deficiences in the section indicated below. Also, please note, that you: 1) reverted edits that were in progress and ongoing (still adding more cites and indicating direct context that explains relevance); and 2) assessed material in a time span that surpasses ordinary human ability to actually read what was being cited; and 3) introduced terms like hack for the ESA which appear inconsistent with NPOV principles. For these reasons, I request (if any further averse action is taken) that this section be contested, instead of summarily deleted.dr.ef.tymac 20:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't attribute any statement to the lawyer. The citation is proof of the underlying claims of market realities that motivate firms to adopt a specific strategy. The citation is to the remarks of a highly-placed industry insider giving testimony about strategic motivations for an entire industry segment, and it is part of the public record. This is directly relevant to the article (and NPOV) because it shows non-EEE-motivated justifications for companies that put out a wide variety of software titles, even though not all those titles are profitable dr.ef.tymac 21:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] citations in support of NPOV

Please use this space to: 1) Indicate any claims that citations are not in support of the text; 2) Provide support for those claims; and 3) Provide support for the specific action taken on the basis of 1) or 2) above. I noticed that someone reverted an NPOV enhancement edit, almost instantaneously after citations were added. The timing of this action coincided with a timeframe that almost guarantees the person did not actually read (in its entirety) the cited material. Therefore, additional justification is requested here.dr.ef.tymac 20:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. I certainly did read the citation. Here is the opening para:

Thank you Mr. Chairman for the opportunity to discuss H.R. 107, the "Digital Media Consumers' Rights Act." I appear on behalf of the Entertainment Software Association (ESA). I joined ESA in January of this year, after serving as counsel on the House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property for the past seven years. It is an honor to testify before you, Chairman Stearns, Ranking Member Schakowsky, and Members of the Subcommittee, on these important issues.

it goes on to say

ESA strongly opposes H.R. 107 because it will substantially harm the entertainment software industry in two ways: 1) it eliminates the protections created by Congress in the "Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA)" for technological measures which video game publishers use to protect their products against unauthorized use; and 2) it will stifle the growth of the digital marketplace through unnecessary government regulation of the labeling of media products instead of allowing private industry to inform consumers of the permissible uses of their products.

How is that relevant to this Wikipedia article? -- Gnetwerker 20:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits are ongoing, thank you for citing assume good faith, as I do not intend to deviate from the spirit of that principle, and moreover, hope it is applied reciprocally. The opening paragraph was not the specific section being cited in support of the NPOV upgrade. This is a matter that would have been made more apparent if the continuity of the ongoing edits had not been interrupted.dr.ef.tymac 20:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Addressing relevance of NPOV citations:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/05122004hearing1265/Rose1993.htm

Our industry makes a tremendous investment in its intellectual property. For an ESA member company to bring a top game to market, it often requires a team of 20 to 30 professionals ... games enjoy a very short commercial window ... only a small percentage of game titles actually achieve profitability, and many more never recover ... revenue required to sustain the enormously high creative costs necessary to produce commercially profitable video games.

This authoritatively supports:

• long-term market viability of product offerings is an industry-wide and significant concern
• range of product offerings is more important than individual titles

The content about the DMCA was not the focus. Moreover, the fact that this industry insider mentions these market realities in the context of the DMCA demonstrates that these are more than just narrow considerations that companies use as excuses for ignoring or extending standards. The fact that this is about DMCA enhances the credibility of this NPOV inclusion, because it shows these concerns are more than just excuses to avoid standards compliance.dr.ef.tymac 21:20, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

http://www.webmonkey.com/webmonkey/98/43/index0a_page2.html?tw=archive

... Responding to customer demand for visual control in HTML, Netscape added the tag to its Navigator browser. ... Cascading Stylesheets had been extensively discussed at that time, Netscape snubbed the standards process and took the easy route ...

This supports:

• A specific example of a company bypassing standards with its own extension
• A non-original commentary that presents this strategy as a response to demand; and
• A non-original commentary that presents this strategy outside the intent of EEE

As far as this not being a reliable cite, that viewpoint is contested here. Please present formally any 'test' that you applied (which this cite does not meet) and address why it is not adequate to meet the specific points it is intended to support.

http://news.com.com/IE+5.5+angers+Web+standards+advocates/2100-1023_3-243144.html

"Standards committees work on their own schedule," said Rebecca Norlander, group program manager for IE. "No company is going to want to wait until the standards bodies are through.

This supports:

• Everything indicated as supported by the webmonkey cite
• Non-original commentary claiming motivations outside the intent of EEE

Please address the credibility of citations by contesting the citations themselves, and not by deleting the NPOV upgrade. Even though the underlying factual merits may be debatable, the threshold for "verifiability, not truth" has been met by these citations. Unless you can thoroughly discredit the authenticity of the material cited, please leave the material in the article (which otherwise would have *zero* NPOV counter-balance).

I'll probably give Gnetwerker a heart attack just to say this, but he's absolutely right... if we're going to include counter-criticism of "embrace, extend and extinguish", it needs to address the idea specifically as it relates to Microsoft. That's the original context of the phrase, and counter-criticism would need to talk about how Microsoft didn't actually engage in the practice as described by its detractors... or, perhaps more easily, it doesn't do it anymore. The content you're bringing to the encyclopedia is reasonably good stuff, and your efforts are appreciated -- really! -- but it's vital that we keep articles focused on the subject at hand, instead of drifting off into philosophical analysis. -/- Warren 21:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Gnetwerker never mentioned addressing EEE (as it relates specifically to Microsoft) as one of the deficiencies in the material I proposed. Nevertheless, even adding that concern to the list of possible deficiencies:

• that concern is met by the counter-example presented in the IE cite (see above)
• Netscape, which also "bypassed standards" by introducing HTML extensions (like the FONT tag) demonstrates non-EEE-motivated actions that might have been called EEE (but weren't)
• none of the deficiencies mentioned by Gnetwerker nor Warrens directly address why the entire NPOV upgrade should be :::*completely deleted* from the article, instead of just qualitatively enhanced. As it stands now, the article is lopsided
• it seems enough to note that 1) counter-explanations for the EEE-motivation exist; and 2) those counter-explanations are authoritatively and historically demonstrable with good citations (which I have added and have yet to be directly discredited)
• it is not 'philosophical drift' to demonstrate that the EEE claim (against Microsoft) can be (and has been) explained away as being a strategically sound and legitimate business decision for producing software *used by more firms than just Microsoft*
• at the very least some portion of the NPOV upgrade should be retained in the article

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dreftymac (talk • contribs).

As my heart seizes and stops beating, with my last breath I gasp .... Thank you, Warren :-) -- Gnetwerker 22:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006-11-07 15:14:15 new NPOV upgrade

Re-edit and improve NPOV upgrade with:

• blatantly obvious connections between text and cites
• Microsoft-specific context
• precise and on-target examples

If there are any remaining issues, please address them here in discussion before modifying the content upgrade. Thanks!

By the way, am glad my contributions are appreciated, and have enabled some beneficial side effects :) It's always good when people choose a viewpoint based on the independent merits of a position, rather than the person presenting it. I do hope, however, you folks can learn how to agree with fewer incidents of catastrophic organ failure ;) dr.ef.tymac 23:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad citations

I requested a citation for the first sentence of the article (emphasis added):

"Embrace, extend and extinguish"[1], also known as "Embrace, extend, and exterminate"[2], is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice alleged[3] Microsoft used internally to describe their strategy for entering product categories involving widely used standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and then using those differences to disadvantage its competitors.

None of the cited references (1, 2, or 3) claim that the U.S. Department of Justice alleged that Microsoft used the terms "embrace, extend, and extinguish" or "embrace, extend, and exterminate" internally. I'm not looking for an edit war or an argument, but rather I'm looking for an accurate citation. Mikedotnet 05:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. This was added some months by someone whose sole purpose on Microsoft-related articles is to add criticism. I've removed the attribution to the United States DOJ, and removed the disputed tag. If you find other specific items, the {{citation needed}} tag on particular statements of the article is preferred to tagging the entire article, as the latter unfairly paints the entire article as problematic. -/- Warren 06:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

In the U.S. DOJ "PLAINTIFFS' JOINT PROPOSED FINDINGS OF FACT - REVISED"[15], the Government states, in para 91.3.2, page 226, "Paul Maritz also explained to Intel representatives that Microsoft’s response to the browser threat was to “embrace, extend, extinguish”; in other words, Microsoft planned to “embrace” existing Internet standards, “extend” them in incompatible ways, and thereby “extinguish” competitors."[16], and cites testimony from McGeady as well as two other Intel employees, Russell Barck and Rob Sullivan (who were Intel's Microsoft sales reps). I have corrected the citation and reinserted the part about the DoJ. -- Gnetwerker 23:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)